Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Oliver Lietz]

On Wednesday, September 30, 2015 at 3:26:36 AM UTC+2, Chris Pearce wrote:
> On 9/29/2015 11:46 PM, Oliver Lietz wrote:
> > Not sure how MSE plays live broadcasts, as youtube primarily is VOD. 
> > It might be possible with any kind of MPEG DASH combination. Anyway it 
> > is PLAYBACK only, not SEND BROADCASTS from the camera. 
> 
> MSE can play fragmented MP4. If your live broadcast muxes into 
> fragmented MP4, you just need a way to ensure your player is 
> receiving/requesting the most recent fragments, and appending that to 
> the MediaSource's SourceBuffers.

Our issue is doing a live broadcast from within a browser with our native 
nanoStream NPAPI plugin, not playback. 
We currently use RTMP for live streaming, as fragmented files create a longer 
latency and complexity.
Playback is up to the browser, either DASH, RTMP/Flash (yes!), HLS or other 
protocols supported by the streaming server.
These use cases are widely used, and it seems difficult to solve when NPAPI is 
switched off, without any native plugin alternative, except moving back to 
native apps.
What is the mozilla plan for supporting native extensions in the future, 
similar to Chrome extensions (native messaging) ?
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Eric Rescorla]

On Tue, Sep 29, 2015 at 3:44 AM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:

>
> >
> >
> > Firefox WebRTC supports H.264.
> Yes but only Baseline profile and not with high quality.
>

I believe that OpenH264 has started to add some high profile
features, but yes, it's not currently HP.

Focus is for WebRTC, not for streaming.
> Broadcast quality encoding requires more than just enabling h264,
> it requires specific access on encoding features and algorithms.
> (I/P/Keyframe structure, profile/level, bitrate control, ...)
>

Sure. You will be able to negotiate some but not all of this, depending
on API surface.


> Furthermore there might be specific capture devices which need
> special driver support (e.g. Blackmagic)


Yes, for this you will obviously need external support.


> In any case, this is the set of use cases WebRTC is intended to support
> and so the right direction to be going is to work with WebRTC
> > (potentially helping us
> > enhance WebRTC to support your applications) rather than doubling
> > down on NPAPI.
> >
> > -Ekr
>
> We are working with WebRTC and it has it's good use cases.
> However it would not replace a complete live broadcast architecture
> (at least not yet) without adding a server component which makes
> the whole setup much more complicated.
> At the moment we can directly send live streams to CDN like Akamai
> with highest possible H264 quality.
> This is definitely not possible with WebRTC.
>
> What would "helping us" mean for you, and how can we do this?


In some cases, submitting patches that provide the functionality you want.
In others, working to get new APIs standardized to support that
functionality.

However, it also sounds like you may need some very specialized stuff
that isn't really likely to come to the general browser use case for a
while.

-Ekr
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Oliver Lietz]

On Saturday, September 26, 2015 at 3:07:03 AM UTC+2, Jonas Sicking wrote:
> On Sep 26, 2015 09:33, "Eric Rescorla"  wrote:
> >
> > On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:20 PM,  wrote:
> >
> > > On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:15:50 PM UTC+2, Eric Rescorla
> wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Oliver Lietz 
> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi,
> > > > > our nanoStream plugin supports live encoding and streaming with
> > > > > h264/aac/rtmp from live camera sources and capture devices.
> > > > > We needed to replace this with a native extension on Chrome.
> > > > > WebRTC is a possible future option but not a suitable replacement
> for
> > > all
> > > > > use cases.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > One or both of WebRTC and MSE is intended to cover precisely these
> > > > use cases. What are they missing here?
> > > >
> > > > -Ekr
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > NPAPI stills works on Firefox, but how long will it remain?
> > > > > What options do we have in the future for implementing native
> > > extensions?
> > > > > Thanks, Oliver
> > > > > ___
> > > > > dev-platform mailing list
> > > > > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> > > > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> > > > >
> > >
> > > MSE is playback only, so no option for live broadcast.
> 
> MSE can be used to play live broadcast. I'm willing to bet that that is
> what YouTube uses for their live broadcast support.
> 
> / Jonas

Not sure how MSE plays live broadcasts, as youtube primarily is VOD.
It might be possible with any kind of MPEG DASH combination.
Anyway it is PLAYBACK only, not SEND BROADCASTS from the camera.

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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Oliver Lietz]

> 
> 
> Firefox WebRTC supports H.264.
Yes but only Baseline profile and not with high quality.
Focus is for WebRTC, not for streaming.
Broadcast quality encoding requires more than just enabling h264,
it requires specific access on encoding features and algorithms.
(I/P/Keyframe structure, profile/level, bitrate control, ...)
Furthermore there might be specific capture devices which need
special driver support (e.g. Blackmagic)

> 
> In any case, this is the set of use cases WebRTC is intended to support and 
> so the right direction to be going is to work with WebRTC 
> (potentially helping us
> enhance WebRTC to support your applications) rather than doubling
> down on NPAPI.
> 
> -Ekr

We are working with WebRTC and it has it's good use cases.
However it would not replace a complete live broadcast architecture
(at least not yet) without adding a server component which makes
the whole setup much more complicated.
At the moment we can directly send live streams to CDN like Akamai
with highest possible H264 quality.
This is definitely not possible with WebRTC.

What would "helping us" mean for you, and how can we do this?
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[lietz]

On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:15:50 PM UTC+2, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> > our nanoStream plugin supports live encoding and streaming with
> > h264/aac/rtmp from live camera sources and capture devices.
> > We needed to replace this with a native extension on Chrome.
> > WebRTC is a possible future option but not a suitable replacement for all
> > use cases.
> >
> 
> One or both of WebRTC and MSE is intended to cover precisely these
> use cases. What are they missing here?
> 
> -Ekr
> 
> 
> NPAPI stills works on Firefox, but how long will it remain?
> > What options do we have in the future for implementing native extensions?
> > Thanks, Oliver
> > ___
> > dev-platform mailing list
> > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> >

MSE is playback only, so no option for live broadcast.
WebRTC is VP9 and a peer protocol (RTP) not compatible to existing streaming 
environments (RTMP, HLS). It requires a proxy/transcoder. It also does not 
allow local recording in mp4 properly, and the codec details cannot be 
accessed. Many other features lacking which would be possible in native 
capture/encoding/streaming code.
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Robert O'Callahan]

On Sat, Sep 26, 2015 at 10:20 AM,  wrote:

> MSE is playback only, so no option for live broadcast.
>

What do you mean? There doesn't seem to be any reason why MSE can't do live
broadcast.

If you're using HLS, you can use MSE.
https://github.com/dailymotion/hls.js


> WebRTC is VP9 and a peer protocol (RTP) not compatible to existing
> streaming environments (RTMP, HLS).

It requires a proxy/transcoder. It also does not allow local recording in
> mp4 properly,


FWIW Firefox for Android and FirefoxOS support recording WebRTC streams to
MP4 locally. Desktop Firefox supports recording to WebM. Do you have a
use-case for recording locally to MP4 on desktop?

Rob
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Eric Rescorla]

On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:20 PM,  wrote:

> On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:15:50 PM UTC+2, Eric Rescorla wrote:
> > On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:
> >
> > > Hi,
> > > our nanoStream plugin supports live encoding and streaming with
> > > h264/aac/rtmp from live camera sources and capture devices.
> > > We needed to replace this with a native extension on Chrome.
> > > WebRTC is a possible future option but not a suitable replacement for
> all
> > > use cases.
> > >
> >
> > One or both of WebRTC and MSE is intended to cover precisely these
> > use cases. What are they missing here?
> >
> > -Ekr
> >
> >
> > NPAPI stills works on Firefox, but how long will it remain?
> > > What options do we have in the future for implementing native
> extensions?
> > > Thanks, Oliver
> > > ___
> > > dev-platform mailing list
> > > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> > >
>
> MSE is playback only, so no option for live broadcast.
> WebRTC is VP9 and a peer protocol (RTP) not compatible to existing
> streaming environments (RTMP, HLS).


Firefox WebRTC supports H.264.



> It requires a proxy/transcoder. It also does not allow local recording in
> mp4 properly, and the codec details cannot be accessed.


I don't know what this means about codec details.



> Many other features lacking which would be possible in native
> capture/encoding/streaming code.
>

Can you elaborate what those features are.

In any case, this is the set of use cases WebRTC is intended to support and
so
the right direction to be going is to work with WebRTC (potentially helping
us
enhance WebRTC to support your applications) rather than doubling
down on NPAPI.

-Ekr
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Jonas Sicking]

On Sep 26, 2015 09:33, "Eric Rescorla"  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2015 at 3:20 PM,  wrote:
>
> > On Saturday, September 19, 2015 at 8:15:50 PM UTC+2, Eric Rescorla
wrote:
> > > On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Oliver Lietz 
wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > > our nanoStream plugin supports live encoding and streaming with
> > > > h264/aac/rtmp from live camera sources and capture devices.
> > > > We needed to replace this with a native extension on Chrome.
> > > > WebRTC is a possible future option but not a suitable replacement
for
> > all
> > > > use cases.
> > > >
> > >
> > > One or both of WebRTC and MSE is intended to cover precisely these
> > > use cases. What are they missing here?
> > >
> > > -Ekr
> > >
> > >
> > > NPAPI stills works on Firefox, but how long will it remain?
> > > > What options do we have in the future for implementing native
> > extensions?
> > > > Thanks, Oliver
> > > > ___
> > > > dev-platform mailing list
> > > > dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> > > > https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
> > > >
> >
> > MSE is playback only, so no option for live broadcast.

MSE can be used to play live broadcast. I'm willing to bet that that is
what YouTube uses for their live broadcast support.

/ Jonas
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NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Oliver Lietz]

Hi,
our nanoStream plugin supports live encoding and streaming with h264/aac/rtmp 
from live camera sources and capture devices.
We needed to replace this with a native extension on Chrome.
WebRTC is a possible future option but not a suitable replacement for all use 
cases.
NPAPI stills works on Firefox, but how long will it remain?
What options do we have in the future for implementing native extensions?
Thanks, Oliver
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Re: NPAPI plug-in use case: live video broadcast

[Eric Rescorla]

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 11:09 AM, Oliver Lietz  wrote:

> Hi,
> our nanoStream plugin supports live encoding and streaming with
> h264/aac/rtmp from live camera sources and capture devices.
> We needed to replace this with a native extension on Chrome.
> WebRTC is a possible future option but not a suitable replacement for all
> use cases.
>

One or both of WebRTC and MSE is intended to cover precisely these
use cases. What are they missing here?

-Ekr


NPAPI stills works on Firefox, but how long will it remain?
> What options do we have in the future for implementing native extensions?
> Thanks, Oliver
> ___
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> dev-platform@lists.mozilla.org
> https://lists.mozilla.org/listinfo/dev-platform
>
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