Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Carin Meier]

I should clarify - parts were removed and parts were added :)
I'm not sure if this is exactly that Tianqi had in mind or not. But the
document is open to feedback. These threads are getting a bit confused. So
if you are going to discuss the document - please prefer the [DISCUSS] -
Revisions to Committer Criteria thread.

Thanks,
Carin

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 5:05 PM Carin Meier  wrote:

> I think it was removed from the document by Steffen from feedback
> https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/4ed84034f9cac4cacae865dd5b5699aa1f9d650c0feee37072df41fa@%3Cdev.mxnet.apache.org%3E
>
> The diff is here
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/diffpagesbyversion.action?pageId=95652053=4=3
>
> On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:29 PM Jim Jagielski  wrote:
>
>> Neither can I.
>>
>> > On Oct 22, 2018, at 12:19 AM, Naveen Swamy  wrote:
>> >
>> > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
>> > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
>> > committer or a PMC of this project.
>> > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
>> > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
>> > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
>> recognize
>> > them and give them a greater role in the project.
>> > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
>> > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
>> project,
>> > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
>> > journey.
>> > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
>> > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
>> source
>> > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
>> >
>> > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
>> > -1
>> >
>> >
>> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >>>
>> >>> Many potential committers and
>> >>> PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
>> >> few),
>> >>> so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >> If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian
>> PMC
>> >> can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
>> Amazon,
>> >> then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
>> community. I
>> >> can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
>> >> would make the process more healthy.
>> >>
>> >> Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
>> fashion
>> >> (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to
>> push the
>> >> guideline will understandably make people to work together.
>> >>
>> >> Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
>> >> company
>> >>
>> >> Tianqi
>> >>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
>> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
>> >>> wrote:
>> >>>
>>  Hi Tianqi -
>>  +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
>>  communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also
>> support
>> >>> the
>>  way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
>>  important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee
>> >> for
>>  committer and PPMC.
>> 
>>  Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
>> >>> PPMC
>>  membership
>>  <
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
>> > .
>>  I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including
>> your
>>  proposal.
>> 
>>  Steffen
>> 
>>  On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
>> >> wrote:
>> 
>> > Dear MXNet Community:
>> >
>> > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
>> > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is
>> important
>> >>> to
>> > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to work
>> > together.
>> >
>> > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC
>> >> proposes
>> >>> a
>> > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should
>> >> only
>> > propose a person from a different organization(company).
>> >
>> > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a single
>> > organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
>> >>> from a
>> > different organization in the community, and get your merit being
>> > recognized by others.
>> >
>> > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members
>> from
>> > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
>> >>> also
>> > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are beyond
>> >>> your
>> > 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Carin Meier]

I think it was removed from the document by Steffen from feedback
https://lists.apache.org/thread.html/4ed84034f9cac4cacae865dd5b5699aa1f9d650c0feee37072df41fa@%3Cdev.mxnet.apache.org%3E

The diff is here
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/pages/diffpagesbyversion.action?pageId=95652053=4=3

On Wed, Oct 24, 2018 at 4:29 PM Jim Jagielski  wrote:

> Neither can I.
>
> > On Oct 22, 2018, at 12:19 AM, Naveen Swamy  wrote:
> >
> > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> recognize
> > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the project,
> > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> > journey.
> > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
> > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open source
> > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> >
> > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > -1
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> > wrote:
> >
> >>>
> >>> Many potential committers and
> >>> PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
> >> few),
> >>> so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> >>>
> >>
> >> If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian
> PMC
> >> can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> Amazon,
> >> then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> community. I
> >> can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
> >> would make the process more healthy.
> >>
> >> Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial fashion
> >> (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push
> the
> >> guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> >>
> >> Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> >> company
> >>
> >> Tianqi
> >>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> >>> wrote:
> >>>
>  Hi Tianqi -
>  +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
>  communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also support
> >>> the
>  way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
>  important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee
> >> for
>  committer and PPMC.
> 
>  Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
> >>> PPMC
>  membership
>  <
> 
> >>>
> >>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > .
>  I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including
> your
>  proposal.
> 
>  Steffen
> 
>  On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
> >> wrote:
> 
> > Dear MXNet Community:
> >
> > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is important
> >>> to
> > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to work
> > together.
> >
> > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC
> >> proposes
> >>> a
> > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should
> >> only
> > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> >
> > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a single
> > organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
> >>> from a
> > different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> > recognized by others.
> >
> > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members from
> > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
> >>> also
> > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are beyond
> >>> your
> > next door
> >
> > Tianqi
> >
> 
> >>>
> >>
>
>

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Jim Jagielski]

Neither can I.

> On Oct 22, 2018, at 12:19 AM, Naveen Swamy  wrote:
> 
> this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> committer or a PMC of this project.
> Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to recognize
> them and give them a greater role in the project.
> I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the project,
> mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> journey.
> I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
> different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open source
> projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> 
> Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> -1
> 
> 
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> wrote:
> 
>>> 
>>> Many potential committers and
>>> PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
>> few),
>>> so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
>>> 
>> 
>> If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian PMC
>> can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from Amazon,
>> then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the community. I
>> can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
>> would make the process more healthy.
>> 
>> Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial fashion
>> (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push the
>> guideline will understandably make people to work together.
>> 
>> Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
>> company
>> 
>> Tianqi
>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 Hi Tianqi -
 +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
 communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also support
>>> the
 way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
 important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee
>> for
 committer and PPMC.
 
 Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
>>> PPMC
 membership
 <
 
>>> 
>> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> .
 I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including your
 proposal.
 
 Steffen
 
 On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
>> wrote:
 
> Dear MXNet Community:
> 
> There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is important
>>> to
> make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to work
> together.
> 
> I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC
>> proposes
>>> a
> committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should
>> only
> propose a person from a different organization(company).
> 
> The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a single
> organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
>>> from a
> different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> recognized by others.
> 
> Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members from
> minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
>>> also
> encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are beyond
>>> your
> next door
> 
> Tianqi
> 
 
>>> 
>> 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Pedro Larroy]

Hi Steffen

I don't see that text in the proposal. I personally think the bar should be
the same for everyone independent of their affiliation, as per Apache ways
of working, and per ethical principles of equality and meritocracy,
otherwise we open the door to discrimination.

This old movie with de Niro and Cuba Gooding comes to mind:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men_of_Honor

Pedro.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 5:15 PM Steffen Rochel 
wrote:

> Tianqi and Pedro - I suggested the following in
>
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
>  :
> In general, a nominee for PPMC will be evaluated based on the merit and
> contribution, independent of his affiliation. However, as an exception to
> improve the affiliation diversity within the PPMC, the PPMC might apply a
> higher bar for nominees affiliated with Amazon AWS.
>
> Please comment on the proposal (see thread "[DISCUSS] - Revisions to
> Committer Criteria).
>
> Steffen
>
> On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM Pedro Larroy  >
> wrote:
>
> > Hi
> >
> > Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
> > intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
> > diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively
> towards
> > this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
> > like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the
> section
> > "Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> > Several
> > Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
> > working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
> > contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
> > employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization,
> sex,
> > condition etc.
> >
> > -1
> >
> > Pedro.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen  wrote:
> >
> > > I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> > > being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> > > employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> > > presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> > > github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
> > >
> > > Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can
> watch
> > > these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> > > certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> > > non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> > > then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
> > >
> > > One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> > > should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we
> can
> > > execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that
> > bar.
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > > > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to
> be
> > > > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > > > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet
> their
> > > > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > > > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> > > recognize
> > > > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > > > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is
> solely
> > > > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
> > project,
> > > > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the
> project's
> > > > journey.
> > > > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to
> > explore
> > > > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
> > source
> > > > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> > > >
> > > > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > > > -1
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen <
> tqc...@cs.washington.edu>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there
> are
> > so
> > > > > few),
> > > > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the
> > Amazonian
> > > > PMC
> > > > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > > > Amazon,
> > > > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > > > community. I
> > > > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated,
> > this
> > > > > would make the process more healthy.
> > > > >
> > > > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Tianqi Chen]

Hi Pedro:
If any of the Amazonians have enough merit to get the committership.
The PMCs outside Amazon should recognize and bring them to the
committership -- This proposal is not about discriminating against anyone.
Please do note that this community is bigger than Amazon itself -- there
are Intel engineers, Googlers, University students, startup companies
employees, Apache members, and independent contributors. Admittedly their
contributions need to get recognized, and they do not sit next door to
another PMC member.

   I do not understand why we should be afraid of this proposal. If the
merit of contributions is good enough, any PMC, including non-Amazonians
should recognize and propose them to the committership, why does it have to
be an Amazonian PMC? Why not try get someone outside Amazon to do so. Try
to have a goodwill and to give it a spin.

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM Pedro Larroy 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
> intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
> diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively towards
> this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
> like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the section
> "Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> Several
> Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
> working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
> contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
> employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization, sex,
> condition etc.
>
> -1
>
> Pedro.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen  wrote:
>
> > I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> > being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> > employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> > presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> > github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
> >
> > Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
> > these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> > certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> > non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> > then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
> >
> > One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> > should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we can
> > execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that
> bar.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:
> >
> > > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> > > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> > > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> > recognize
> > > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> > > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
> project,
> > > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> > > journey.
> > > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to
> explore
> > > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
> source
> > > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> > >
> > > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > > -1
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are
> so
> > > > few),
> > > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the
> Amazonian
> > > PMC
> > > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > > Amazon,
> > > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > > community. I
> > > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated,
> this
> > > > would make the process more healthy.
> > > >
> > > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
> > fashion
> > > > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to
> push
> > > the
> > > > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> > > >
> > > > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > > > company
> > > >
> > > > Tianqi
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Tianqi Chen]

Hi Pedro:
If any of the Amazonians have enough merit to get the committership.
The PMCs outside Amazon should recognize and bring them to the
committership -- This proposal is not about discriminating against anyone.
Please do note that this community is bigger than Amazon itself -- there
are Intel engineers, Googlers, University students, startup companies
employees, Apache members, and independent contributors. Admittedly their
contributions need to get recognized, and they do not sit next door to
another PMC member.

   I do not understand why we should be afraid of this proposal. If the
merit of contributions is good enough, any PMC, including non-Amazonians
should recognize and propose them to the committership, why does it have to
be an Amazonian PMC? Why not try get someone outside Amazon to do so. Try
to have a goodwill and to give it a spin.

Tianqi

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM Pedro Larroy 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
> intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
> diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively towards
> this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
> like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the section
> "Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> Several
> Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
> working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
> contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
> employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization, sex,
> condition etc.
>
> -1
>
> Pedro.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen  wrote:
>
> > I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> > being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> > employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> > presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> > github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
> >
> > Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
> > these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> > certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> > non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> > then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
> >
> > One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> > should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we can
> > execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that
> bar.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:
> >
> > > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> > > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> > > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> > recognize
> > > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> > > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
> project,
> > > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> > > journey.
> > > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to
> explore
> > > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
> source
> > > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> > >
> > > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > > -1
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are
> so
> > > > few),
> > > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the
> Amazonian
> > > PMC
> > > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > > Amazon,
> > > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > > community. I
> > > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated,
> this
> > > > would make the process more healthy.
> > > >
> > > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
> > fashion
> > > > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to
> push
> > > the
> > > > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> > > >
> > > > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > > > company
> > > >
> > > > Tianqi
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Steffen Rochel]

Tianqi and Pedro - I suggested the following in
https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
 :
In general, a nominee for PPMC will be evaluated based on the merit and
contribution, independent of his affiliation. However, as an exception to
improve the affiliation diversity within the PPMC, the PPMC might apply a
higher bar for nominees affiliated with Amazon AWS.

Please comment on the proposal (see thread "[DISCUSS] - Revisions to
Committer Criteria).

Steffen

On Tue, Oct 23, 2018 at 7:09 AM Pedro Larroy 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
> intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
> diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively towards
> this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
> like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the section
> "Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html
> Several
> Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
> working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
> contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
> employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization, sex,
> condition etc.
>
> -1
>
> Pedro.
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen  wrote:
>
> > I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> > being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> > employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> > presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> > github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
> >
> > Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
> > these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> > certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> > non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> > then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
> >
> > One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> > should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we can
> > execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that
> bar.
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:
> >
> > > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> > > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> > > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> > recognize
> > > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> > > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the
> project,
> > > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> > > journey.
> > > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to
> explore
> > > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open
> source
> > > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> > >
> > > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > > -1
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > >
> > > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are
> so
> > > > few),
> > > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the
> Amazonian
> > > PMC
> > > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > > Amazon,
> > > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > > community. I
> > > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated,
> this
> > > > would make the process more healthy.
> > > >
> > > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
> > fashion
> > > > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to
> push
> > > the
> > > > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> > > >
> > > > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > > > company
> > > >
> > > > Tianqi
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > > steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > > > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and
> encourage
> > > > > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also
> > > support
> > > > > the
> > > > > > way you 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Pedro Larroy]

Hi

Tianqi, there's a saying that the road to hell is paved with good
intentions. I think most of us here are enthusiastic about increasing
diversity of contributions to this project and are working actively towards
this. Having any kind of positive or negative discrimination seems to me
like it goes against what's listed on the Apache website, under the section
"Meritocracy". https://www.apache.org/foundation/how-it-works.html  Several
Amazonians have invested time, love and resources both inside and outside
working hours to this project. I don't think it's fair to them that their
contributions are not taken impartially irregardless of their current
employer, neither would be against a member of any other organization, sex,
condition etc.

-1

Pedro.




On Mon, Oct 22, 2018 at 6:02 PM Tianqi Chen  wrote:

> I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
> being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
> employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
> presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
> github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.
>
> Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
> these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
> certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
> non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
> then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.
>
> One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
> should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we can
> execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that bar.
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:
>
> > this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> > collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> > committer or a PMC of this project.
> > Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> > objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> > project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to
> recognize
> > them and give them a greater role in the project.
> > I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> > upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the project,
> > mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> > journey.
> > I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
> > different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open source
> > projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
> >
> > Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> > -1
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > >
> > > >  Many potential committers and
> > > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
> > > few),
> > > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > > >
> > >
> > > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian
> > PMC
> > > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> > Amazon,
> > > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> > community. I
> > > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
> > > would make the process more healthy.
> > >
> > > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial
> fashion
> > > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push
> > the
> > > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> > >
> > > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > > company
> > >
> > > Tianqi
> > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> > steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
> > > > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also
> > support
> > > > the
> > > > > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
> > > > > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating
> nominee
> > > for
> > > > > committer and PPMC.
> > > > >
> > > > > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer
> and
> > > > PPMC
> > > > > membership
> > > > > <
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > > > > >.
> > > > > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including
> > your
> > > > > proposal.
> > > > >
> > > > > Steffen
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
> > > wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > > 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Tianqi Chen]

I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.

Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.

One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
should not be controlled by a single entity. I think that whether we can
execute this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that bar.

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:

> this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> committer or a PMC of this project.
> Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to recognize
> them and give them a greater role in the project.
> I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the project,
> mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> journey.
> I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
> different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open source
> projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
>
> Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> -1
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >  Many potential committers and
> > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
> > few),
> > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > >
> >
> > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian
> PMC
> > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> Amazon,
> > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> community. I
> > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
> > would make the process more healthy.
> >
> > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial fashion
> > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push
> the
> > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> >
> > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > company
> >
> > Tianqi
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
> > > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also
> support
> > > the
> > > > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
> > > > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee
> > for
> > > > committer and PPMC.
> > > >
> > > > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
> > > PPMC
> > > > membership
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > > > >.
> > > > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including
> your
> > > > proposal.
> > > >
> > > > Steffen
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > > > >
> > > > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > > > > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is
> important
> > > to
> > > > > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to
> work
> > > > > together.
> > > > >
> > > > > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC
> > proposes
> > > a
> > > > > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should
> > only
> > > > > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> > > > >
> > > > > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a
> single
> > > > > organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
> > > from a
> > > > > different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> > > > > recognized by others.
> > > > >
> > > > > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members
> from
> > > > > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
> > > also
> > > > > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are
> beyond
> > > your
> > > > > next door
> > > > 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Tianqi Chen]

I want to clarify that this would not prevent Amazon contributors from
being nominated. Nor it would prevent collaboration between Amazon
employees. A good thing about Apache is that everything is recorded and
presented to the entire community, this includes the dev list,
github review/commit history, documentation, wiki.

Specifically to Amazon contributors, there are non-Amazon PMCs can watch
these evidence and bring these contributors on board -- and I am very
certain this would be the case. If the problem that there are too few
non-Amazon PMCs, then it wouldn't hurt to try to get more on board, and
then get them in the term to nominate PMC contributors.

One of the key criteria of graduation for an Apache Project is that it
should not be controlled by a single entity, I think to be able to execute
this guideline is exactly a good test to check if we pass that bar.

Tianqi

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 9:19 PM Naveen Swamy  wrote:

> this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
> collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
> committer or a PMC of this project.
> Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
> objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
> project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to recognize
> them and give them a greater role in the project.
> I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
> upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the project,
> mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
> journey.
> I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
> different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open source
> projects to get their members excited about MXNet).
>
> Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
> -1
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
> wrote:
>
> > >
> > >  Many potential committers and
> > > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
> > few),
> > > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> > >
> >
> > If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian
> PMC
> > can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from
> Amazon,
> > then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the
> community. I
> > can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
> > would make the process more healthy.
> >
> > Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial fashion
> > (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push
> the
> > guideline will understandably make people to work together.
> >
> > Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> > company
> >
> > Tianqi
> >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel <
> steffenroc...@gmail.com>
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
> > > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also
> support
> > > the
> > > > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
> > > > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee
> > for
> > > > committer and PPMC.
> > > >
> > > > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
> > > PPMC
> > > > membership
> > > > <
> > > >
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > > > >.
> > > > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including
> your
> > > > proposal.
> > > >
> > > > Steffen
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
> > wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > > > >
> > > > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > > > > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is
> important
> > > to
> > > > > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to
> work
> > > > > together.
> > > > >
> > > > > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC
> > proposes
> > > a
> > > > > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should
> > only
> > > > > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> > > > >
> > > > > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a
> single
> > > > > organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
> > > from a
> > > > > different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> > > > > recognized by others.
> > > > >
> > > > > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members
> from
> > > > > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
> > > also
> > > > > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are
> beyond
> > > your
> > > > > next door
> > > 

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Naveen Swamy]

this suggestion looks like it is putting the onus on contributors to
collaborate with contributors outside their org to get nominated to be
committer or a PMC of this project.
Every organization has its own business goals, on the way to meet their
objectives if their employees happen to be great contributors to this
project, I would expect PMC members(wearing their Apache hat) to recognize
them and give them a greater role in the project.
I would assume the responsibility of increasing the diversity is solely
upon the PMC members, the PMC should look ways to evangelize the project,
mentor new contributors, nominate and make them a part of the project's
journey.
I do agree that we have to increase the diversity and suggest to explore
different ways( for example collaborate with other successful Open source
projects to get their members excited about MXNet).

Guideline or not, I cannot agree to this in principle.
-1


On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 8:22 PM Tianqi Chen 
wrote:

> >
> >  Many potential committers and
> > PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so
> few),
> > so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
> >
>
> If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian PMC
> can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from Amazon,
> then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the community. I
> can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
> would make the process more healthy.
>
> Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial fashion
> (e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push the
> guideline will understandably make people to work together.
>
> Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single
> company
>
> Tianqi
>
> >
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel 
> > wrote:
> >
> > > Hi Tianqi -
> > > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
> > > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also support
> > the
> > > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
> > > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee
> for
> > > committer and PPMC.
> > >
> > > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
> > PPMC
> > > membership
> > > <
> > >
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > > >.
> > > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including your
> > > proposal.
> > >
> > > Steffen
> > >
> > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen 
> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > > >
> > > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > > > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is important
> > to
> > > > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to work
> > > > together.
> > > >
> > > > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC
> proposes
> > a
> > > > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should
> only
> > > > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> > > >
> > > > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a single
> > > > organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
> > from a
> > > > different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> > > > recognized by others.
> > > >
> > > > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members from
> > > > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
> > also
> > > > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are beyond
> > your
> > > > next door
> > > >
> > > > Tianqi
> > > >
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Tianqi Chen]

>
>  Many potential committers and
> PMC won’t interact with the non-Amazonians at all (since there are so few),
> so they’d be relegated to obscurity and hopelessness by default.
>

If potential contributors do not comes from Amazon, then the Amazonian PMC
can nominate them :)  If the potential contributors does comes from Amazon,
then it is not a bad thing to interact with bigger part of the community. I
can expect that as more non-Amazonian contributors get nonimated, this
would make the process more healthy.

Like neural networks, any guideline can be played in adverserial fashion
(e.g. in the case of the gray areas). I think having a goodwill to push the
guideline will understandably make people to work together.

Afterall, this is an Apache project that should goes beyond a single company

Tianqi

>
>
>
> On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 5:06 PM Steffen Rochel 
> wrote:
>
> > Hi Tianqi -
> > +1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
> > communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also support
> the
> > way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
> > important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee for
> > committer and PPMC.
> >
> > Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and
> PPMC
> > membership
> > <
> >
> https://cwiki.apache.org/confluence/display/MXNET/Become+an+Apache+MXNet+%28incubating%29+Committer+and+PPMC+Member+Proposal
> > >.
> > I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including your
> > proposal.
> >
> > Steffen
> >
> > On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen  wrote:
> >
> > > Dear MXNet Community:
> > >
> > > There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> > > PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is important
> to
> > > make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to work
> > > together.
> > >
> > > I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC proposes
> a
> > > committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should only
> > > propose a person from a different organization(company).
> > >
> > > The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a single
> > > organization, it is important to recognize others, including those
> from a
> > > different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> > > recognized by others.
> > >
> > > Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members from
> > > minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might
> also
> > > encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are beyond
> your
> > > next door
> > >
> > > Tianqi
> > >
> >
>

Re: [Discussion] PMC and Committer Courtesy: Only Propose Candidate in a Different Organization

[Steffen Rochel]

Hi Tianqi -
+1 . I like the idea to grow diversity at the project and encourage
communication beyond people sitting next to each other. I also support the
way you described as guideline, not has a hard rule. I think it is
important we focus on merit and contributions when evaluating nominee for
committer and PPMC.

Carin started a draft document for revised criteria for committer and PPMC
membership
.
I suggest to contribute, provide feedback and suggestion including your
proposal.

Steffen

On Sun, Oct 21, 2018 at 10:22 AM Tianqi Chen  wrote:

> Dear MXNet Community:
>
> There has been a great discussion going on in terms of
> PMC/Committer Criteria.  As a community move forward, it is important to
> make the community inclusive to everyone and encourage folks to work
> together.
>
> I want to propose the following proposal courtesy: when a PMC proposes a
> committer/PMC member, for courtesy of the community, she/he should only
> propose a person from a different organization(company).
>
> The idea behind that is that the Apache project goes beyond a single
> organization, it is important to recognize others, including those from a
> different organization in the community, and get your merit being
> recognized by others.
>
> Admittedly, this would also give more "power" to the PMC members from
> minority organizations -- which I think is a good thing. This might also
> encourage everyone to work together and talk to folks who are beyond your
> next door
>
> Tianqi
>