Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:15 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > syslinux (really isolinux) is only used on installation media. > > This comment from 2012 suggests we probably should have dropped > isolinux in favor of BIOS GRUB a while ago, but c'est la vie. I think > it's in scope to exchange syslinux for

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:06 PM Brian C. Lane wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 06:50:39PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:54 AM Ben Cotton wrote: > > >syslinux goes away entirely > > > > If the installation media used BIOS GRUB, syslinux could still go > > away. What

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:05 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 03:43:07PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > Clover is described here: > > https://github.com/CloverHackyColor/CloverBootloader > > This is interesting. Seems like considerable up-front work, but a much > cleaner

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:21 PM Chris Adams wrote: > > Once upon a time, Chris Murphy said: > > syslinux (really isolinux) is only used on installation media. > > It's commonly used for BIOS PXE booting as well. > *shudders at the memories of dealing with pxelinux* GRUB is way better for that.

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 17:02 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote: > > I like Zbigniew's plan too! But I gotta ask, what is "FWMOIW"? > > For What My Opinion Is Worth :-) I also hadn't seen this acronym, but I was hoping it was going to be some kind of cipher since Simo works on the crypto team ☺

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Once upon a time, Chris Murphy said: > syslinux (really isolinux) is only used on installation media. It's commonly used for BIOS PXE booting as well. -- Chris Adams ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 5:35 PM Samuel Sieb wrote: > > On 4/7/22 14:51, Jared Dominguez wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:49 PM Samuel Sieb > > wrote: > > > > On 4/7/22 08:02, Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > This is a proposal. Nothing has changed yet. The choice

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 14:51, Jared Dominguez wrote: On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:49 PM Samuel Sieb > wrote: On 4/7/22 08:02, Jared Dominguez wrote: > This is a proposal. Nothing has changed yet. The choice is now whether > to go forward with it or come together with a

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 5:21 PM Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:10 PM Demi Marie Obenour > wrote: > > Can the disk be partitioned so that it is valid for *both* MBR and GPT? > > > > There are two options here: protective MBR and hybrid MBR. > > Protective MBRs are well-supported

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:50 PM Fabio Valentini wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 4:54 PM Ben Cotton wrote: > > > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DeprecateLegacyBIOS > > > > == Summary == > > Make UEFI a hardware requirement for new Fedora installations on > > platforms that support it

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 7:10 PM Demi Marie Obenour wrote: > > On 4/7/22 15:30, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 12:20 AM Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > >> > >> Hi, > >> > >>> On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits > >>> for supporting UEFI when the majority

Re: Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:36 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > The Windows Hardware Certification Program is a marketing program. If > you want to say things like "made for windows 8" in your product, you > have to comply with their requirements. And the requirements differ by > years for Windows and

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 15:30, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 12:20 AM Gerd Hoffmann wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits >>> for supporting UEFI when the majority of the consumers of Fedora Cloud >>> don't have any pressing need to do

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 4:54 PM Ben Cotton wrote: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DeprecateLegacyBIOS > > == Summary == > Make UEFI a hardware requirement for new Fedora installations on > platforms that support it (x86_64). Legacy BIOS support is not > removed, but new non-UEFI

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 5:05 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 03:43:07PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > Clover is described here: > > https://github.com/CloverHackyColor/CloverBootloader > > This is interesting. Seems like considerable up-front work, but a much > cleaner

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 6:05 PM Matthew Miller wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 03:43:07PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > > Clover is described here: > > https://github.com/CloverHackyColor/CloverBootloader > > This is interesting. Seems like considerable up-front work, but a much > cleaner

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 03:43:07PM +0100, Richard W.M. Jones wrote: > Clover is described here: > https://github.com/CloverHackyColor/CloverBootloader This is interesting. Seems like considerable up-front work, but a much cleaner possible future than completely dual paths. Are there docs on this

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

>> >> >> > This is out of context here because you can disable Secure Boot but >> >> >> > still use UEFI to make that work. You're trying to link to different >> >> >> > problems together. >> >> >> >> >> >> I think there's firmware out there which enables Secure Boot >> >> >> unconditionally in

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:49 PM Samuel Sieb wrote: > On 4/7/22 08:02, Jared Dominguez wrote: > > This is a proposal. Nothing has changed yet. The choice is now whether > > to go forward with it or come together with a cohesive > > alternative, including one of the two listed in the proposal. But

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:18 PM Florian Weimer wrote: > * Chris Murphy: > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:54 AM Florian Weimer > wrote: > >> > >> * Chris Murphy: > >> > >> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:56 AM Florian Weimer > wrote: > >> >> > >> >> * Peter Robinson: > >> >> > >> >> > This is out of

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 15:26 -0400, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:16 PM Simo Sorce wrote: > > > > On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 16:16 +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 10:58:29AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > Am 07.04.2022 um

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> On Di, 05.04.22 17:38, Chris Murphy (lists(a)colorremedies.com) wrote: > > > Let me stress one thing though: Fedora *has* *no* working SecureBoot > implementation. The initrd is not authenticated. It has no signatures, > nothing. > > By disabling SecureBoot you effectively lose exactly

Re: Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:04 AM Jared Dominguez wrote: > > Microsoft has required since Windows 8 (released in 2012) that any systems > that are certified with Windows must ship with UEFI by default The Windows Hardware Certification Program is a marketing program. If you want to say things

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 8:28 AM Lennart Poettering wrote: > > On Di, 05.04.22 17:38, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: > > > When users have a suboptimal experience by default, it makes Fedora > > look bad. We can't have security concerns overriding all other > > concerns. But it's

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

* Chris Murphy: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:54 AM Florian Weimer wrote: >> >> * Chris Murphy: >> >> > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:56 AM Florian Weimer wrote: >> >> >> >> * Peter Robinson: >> >> >> >> > This is out of context here because you can disable Secure Boot but >> >> > still use UEFI to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/6/22 16:17, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:09 PM Demi Marie Obenour > wrote: >> >> On 4/6/22 06:43, Neal Gompa wrote: >>> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:04 AM Gary Buhrmaster >>> wrote: On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:59 AM Demi Marie Obenour wrote: > > On 4/5/22

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 08:52, Vitaly Zaitsev via devel wrote: > On 05/04/2022 17:44, Neal Gompa wrote: >> It is easier to tell people to boot the media in BIOS mode in some >> cases than it is to figure out how to turn off Secure Boot. > > Legacy boot on modern hardware is a hack[1]. Some hardware

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:54 AM Florian Weimer wrote: > > * Chris Murphy: > > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:56 AM Florian Weimer wrote: > >> > >> * Peter Robinson: > >> > >> > This is out of context here because you can disable Secure Boot but > >> > still use UEFI to make that work. You're trying

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 08:02, Jared Dominguez wrote: This is a proposal. Nothing has changed yet. The choice is now whether to go forward with it or come together with a cohesive alternative, including one of the two listed in the proposal. But we need a solution that accounts for the existing maintainers

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 12:20 AM Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > > Hi, > > > On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits > > for supporting UEFI when the majority of the consumers of Fedora Cloud > > don't have any pressing need to do it and things like hibernation and > >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 3:16 PM Simo Sorce wrote: > > On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 16:16 +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 10:58:29AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Am 07.04.2022 um 00:25 schrieb Neal Gompa : > > > > > > > > It would be useful if we do

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, 2022-04-07 at 16:16 +0200, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek wrote: > On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 10:58:29AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > > > > > > Am 07.04.2022 um 00:25 schrieb Neal Gompa : > > > > > > It would be useful if we do indeed get a x86 BIOS SIG as Hans de Goede > > > proposed. I think

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 8:04 PM Justin Forbes wrote: > We have not set up an infrastructure for it, but in all honesty, there > is no technical reason that any 3rd party repository building and > packaging the driver could not have done such a thing a couple of > years ago. The mechanism has

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

David Duncan writes: > it also appears that issues have prevented direct contribution based > on some sort of misconfiguration in the repository, though it sounds > like this is fixed as of this discussion. It still speaks to more than > a year of complication in contribution. Is Neal really the

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Michael Catanzaro writes: > On Wed, Apr 6 2022 at 03:35:38 PM -0400, Jared Dominguez > wrote: >> This seems like a strong assumption to me considering that aside from >> the largest cloud providers (with whom Red Hat is directly working >> with on UEFI boot features and bug reports), cloud

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Robert Marcano via devel writes: > Is this change only related to install media support for booting with > BIOS only? Would I be able to install newer Fedora releases using Legacy > PXE on BIOS only machines? The intent is to indicate that new legacy installations are not supported,

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Vitaly Zaitsev via devel writes: > On 07/04/2022 10:43, Lennart Poettering wrote: >> Do you think the user experience with grub was*good*? Turing complete >> language? Scripts that generate scripts that generate scripts? > > +1. Current GRUB2 is a collection of hacks. Even the upstream abandoned

Re: Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 11:09 AM Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek < zbys...@in.waw.pl> wrote: > On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > > majid hussain writes: > > > > > hi, > > > could someone kindly tell me if my toshiba l750 machine has EFI > support? > > > i'm blind and

Re: Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Once upon a time, Zbigniew Jędrzejewski-Szmek said: > Changing UEFI setting in the firmware is a big problem. We know that > a) it can only be done by tweaking settings in the firmware interface > which looks different on every machine, b) users find it very hard in > general, and c) for blind

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Do, 07.04.22 10:53, Fedora Development ML (devel@lists.fedoraproject.org) wrote: > On 4/7/22 10:28 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: > > On Di, 05.04.22 17:38, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: > > > > > When users have a suboptimal experience by default, it makes Fedora > > > look

Re: Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 10:47:30AM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > majid hussain writes: > > > hi, > > could someone kindly tell me if my toshiba l750 machine has EFI support? > > i'm blind and efi/bios screens are in accessible. Based on a web query, it most likely has EFI support, but it also

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:58 AM Peter Boy wrote: > > > > Am 07.04.2022 um 00:25 schrieb Neal Gompa : > > > > It would be useful if we do indeed get a x86 BIOS SIG as Hans de Goede > > proposed. I think Fedora Server and Fedora Cloud would be interested > > in such a thing, given all the caveats

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 10:28 AM, Lennart Poettering wrote: On Di, 05.04.22 17:38, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: When users have a suboptimal experience by default, it makes Fedora look bad. We can't have security concerns overriding all other concerns. But it's really pernicious to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:36 AM Neal Gompa wrote: > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:03 AM Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > > > > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:51 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < > domi...@greysector.net> wrote: > >> > >> On Wednesday, 06 April 2022 at 21:35, Jared Dominguez wrote: > >>

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 12:38:40PM +, Gary Buhrmaster wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:15 PM Josh Boyer wrote: > > > I agree 100%. I think this is actually getting to the crux of the > > issue, which is that while we have a lot of people that want BIOS > > support to continue, we

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 10:03 AM Jared Dominguez wrote: > > > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:51 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski > wrote: >> >> On Wednesday, 06 April 2022 at 21:35, Jared Dominguez wrote: >> > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 2:26 PM Michael Catanzaro >> > wrote: >> > >> > > On Wed, Apr 6

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Di, 05.04.22 17:38, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote: > When users have a suboptimal experience by default, it makes Fedora > look bad. We can't have security concerns overriding all other > concerns. But it's really pernicious to simultaneously say security is > important, but

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Once upon a time, Jared Dominguez said: > Looks like they are using vSphere, which supports UEFI VMs. The same is > true for KVM, Xen and bhyve, so it's more about what feature set cloud > providers using these hypervisors are choosing to turn on. In a way, this is similar to "your router

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 07, 2022 at 10:58:29AM +0200, Peter Boy wrote: > > > > Am 07.04.2022 um 00:25 schrieb Neal Gompa : > > > > It would be useful if we do indeed get a x86 BIOS SIG as Hans de Goede > > proposed. I think Fedora Server and Fedora Cloud would be interested > > in such a thing, given all

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 4:51 AM Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski < domi...@greysector.net> wrote: > On Wednesday, 06 April 2022 at 21:35, Jared Dominguez wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 2:26 PM Michael Catanzaro > > wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Apr 6 2022 at 01:57:00 PM -0400, Neal Gompa > > >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 07/04/2022 10:43, Lennart Poettering wrote: Do you think the user experience with grub was*good*? Turing complete language? Scripts that generate scripts that generate scripts? +1. Current GRUB2 is a collection of hacks. Even the upstream abandoned it, and it currently maintained mainly in

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 05/04/2022 19:30, Tom Hughes via devel wrote: This is where I have a problem with this, the fact that there is no upgrade path - virtually my entire installed base of Fedora is running legacy BIOS and not being able to upgrade them will be something of a headache. If you want to switch from

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 06/04/2022 22:37, Javier Martinez Canillas wrote: As Robbied said, I added the /etc/dnf/protected.d/grub2-*.conf to the grub2 I don't like that. Users should be able to remove grub2 and switch to systemd-boot. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 06/04/2022 06:03, Gary Buhrmaster wrote: That they choose not to do so for Linux is their right, even if some wish they did. Because it is impossible. The Linux kernel doesn't have a stable API/ABI. You need to rebuild kernel modules after every kernel update. -- Sincerely, Vitaly

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:27 AM Chris Adams wrote: > > Once upon a time, Simo Sorce said: > > Ideally dkms (or whatever) could simply generate a key, sign the module > > and manage to get the public key in the right place so that the module > > can be verified. > > That's not possible, is it? I

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 06/04/2022 02:59, Demi Marie Obenour wrote: I agree with this. Sign the driver. /NVIDIA driver maintainer here/ We can't sign the driver, because we're building RPMS with kernel modules on end user machines with akmods. Akmods can now automatically sign built kernel modules, but you

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 9:20 AM Simo Sorce wrote: > > On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 21:03 -0500, Justin Forbes wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:31 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:23 AM Justin Forbes > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Apple and Microsoft signing NVIDIA's

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Once upon a time, Simo Sorce said: > Ideally dkms (or whatever) could simply generate a key, sign the module > and manage to get the public key in the right place so that the module > can be verified. That's not possible, is it? I assume the user has to interact with the firmware at some point

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 06/04/2022 01:38, Chris Murphy wrote: Apple and Microsoft signing NVIDIA's proprietary driver doesn't at all indicate Apple and Microsoft trust the driver itself. Both MacOS and Windows have stable as rock kernel API/ABI. Linux - don't. That's why you need to rebuild kernel modules after

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 19:30 -0700, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > Reading the comments, it seems the overlooked word is “depreciated” > meaning users will have time to properly transition their hardware. The actual word is "deprecated", but I am pretty sure it applies to HW that is also very

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, 2022-04-06 at 21:03 -0500, Justin Forbes wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:31 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:23 AM Justin Forbes wrote: > > > > > > Apple and Microsoft signing NVIDIA's proprietary driver doesn't at all > > > > indicate Apple and Microsoft

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/7/22 03:43, Lennart Poettering wrote: Do you think the user experience with grub was *good*? Turing complete language? Scripts that generate scripts that generate scripts? Well said. GRUB2 was actually the reason that I kept many of my UEFI-capable systems booting in legacy mode for

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 06/04/2022 23:44, Neal Gompa wrote: Put more concretely in terms of user experience: nouveau causes regular, random, immediate system freezes with RTX 20 series and RTX 30 series GPUs. Can confirm that. Also I can reproduce this on legacy GTX 780. Reported this issue 4 years ago. Not fixed

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 06/04/2022 22:59, Robbie Harwood wrote: It's less powerful than the proprietary driver, but if it works out of the box, it's really difficult to argue with that user experience. It doesn't work on modern NVIDIA hardware at all without proprietary firmware installation. On older hardware,

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 05/04/2022 18:29, Michael Catanzaro wrote: The user experience requirement is: user searches for NVIDIA in GNOME Software and clicks Install. No further action should be necessary. We didn't make the NVIDIA driver available from the graphical installer with the intention that arcane

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 06:30:38PM +0100, Tom Hughes via devel wrote: > On 05/04/2022 15:52, Ben Cotton wrote: > > >* There is no migration story from Legacy BIOS to UEFI - > >repartitioning effectively mandates a reinstall. As a result, we > >don’t drop support for existing Legacy BIOS systems

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 05/04/2022 17:56, Robbie Harwood wrote: - Use nouveau (free, open source, cool) No way. Broken for ages. Causes random hangs on my PC. Also can't work with modern NVIDIA cards without proprietary firmware installation. - Sign their own copy of the proprietary driver (involves messing

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 07/04/2022 09:59, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: OVH is another big provider and they don't offer UEFI boot with their VPS range. I've just confirmed it with their support. You should contact their support first. -- Sincerely, Vitaly Zaitsev (vit...@easycoding.org)

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 05/04/2022 17:44, Neal Gompa wrote: It is easier to tell people to boot the media in BIOS mode in some cases than it is to figure out how to turn off Secure Boot. Legacy boot on modern hardware is a hack[1]. Some hardware manufactures even doesn't test CSM support. [1]:

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 05/04/2022 17:08, Neal Gompa wrote: We also lack solutions for dealing with the NVIDIA driver in UEFI+Secure Boot case. Are you planning to actually*fix* that now? 1. UEFI != UEFI Secure Boot. 2. akmods on Fedora 36+ can automatically sign all built kernel modules. -- Sincerely, Vitaly

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> On Apr 7, 2022, at 2:31 AM, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:20 AM Gerd Hoffmann wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >>> On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits >>> for supporting UEFI when the majority of the consumers of Fedora Cloud >>> don't have any

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, 7 Apr 2022 at 09:43, Lennart Poettering wrote: > Also, why would a boot menu need a particularly fancy user experience? Being honest, I think the simplicity of sd-boot is a feature, not a failure. Richard. ___ devel mailing list --

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 2:20 AM Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > > Hi, > > > On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits > > for supporting UEFI when the majority of the consumers of Fedora Cloud > > don't have any pressing need to do it and things like hibernation and > >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> Am 07.04.2022 um 00:25 schrieb Neal Gompa : > > It would be useful if we do indeed get a x86 BIOS SIG as Hans de Goede > proposed. I think Fedora Server and Fedora Cloud would be interested > in such a thing, given all the caveats right now with dropping BIOS > support for server-class

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

* Chris Murphy: > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 9:56 AM Florian Weimer wrote: >> >> * Peter Robinson: >> >> > This is out of context here because you can disable Secure Boot but >> > still use UEFI to make that work. You're trying to link to different >> > problems together. >> >> I think there's

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thursday, 07 April 2022 at 08:20, Gerd Hoffmann wrote: > Hi, > > > On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits > > for supporting UEFI when the majority of the consumers of Fedora Cloud > > don't have any pressing need to do it and things like hibernation and > >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wednesday, 06 April 2022 at 21:35, Jared Dominguez wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 2:26 PM Michael Catanzaro > wrote: > > > On Wed, Apr 6 2022 at 01:57:00 PM -0400, Neal Gompa > > wrote: > > > Moving past the Big Three(tm), the actual > > > cloud providers that matter from a Fedora context

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:31 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > > We have not set up an infrastructure for it, but in all honesty, there > is no technical reason that any 3rd party repository building and > packaging the driver could not have done such a thing a couple of Rpmfusion doesn't provide

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Mi, 06.04.22 07:33, Neal Gompa (ngomp...@gmail.com) wrote: > Irrespective of this change, I would flat-out oppose moving to > sd-boot. In any case, you can't use sd-boot for live media. > > If we were going to move to pure EFI boot manager, I'd rather use one > that has a decent user experience

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/6/22 19:30, Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: Reading the comments, it seems the overlooked word is “depreciated” meaning users will have time to properly transition their hardware. No, the problem is that saying it's "deprecated" is misleading. If you can only upgrade a system and can't

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Tuesday, 05 April 2022 at 21:03, PGNet Dev wrote: > > Akamai owns Linode, which is a prominent VPS that focuses on Linux > > (Linode is a contraction meaning "Linux Node"). > > +1 > > > DigitalOcean similarly is Linux centric and so Windows doesn't matter. > > +1 > > > Most web hosting

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 12:19:40PM +0200, Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: > On Tuesday, 05 April 2022 at 16:52, Ben Cotton wrote: > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DeprecateLegacyBIOS > > > > == Summary == > > Make UEFI a hardware requirement for new Fedora installations on > >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, > On the cloud side, it's been very difficult to articulate any benefits > for supporting UEFI when the majority of the consumers of Fedora Cloud > don't have any pressing need to do it and things like hibernation and > snapshotting are non-functional. Last year, I changed Fedora Cloud to >

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Thu, Apr 7, 2022 at 12:33 PM Luya Tshimbalanga wrote: > > Reading the comments, it seems the overlooked word is “depreciated” meaning > users will have time to properly transition their hardware. Transition to what though, another distro? moving to new hw won't help maintain things for

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Reading the comments, it seems the overlooked word is “depreciated” meaning users will have time to properly transition their hardware. It seems the proposal suggests an opportunity to revisit the boot-loader like the heavily downstream patched grub2 deeming too complex to maintain in long

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:31 PM Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:23 AM Justin Forbes wrote: > > > > Apple and Microsoft signing NVIDIA's proprietary driver doesn't at all > > > indicate Apple and Microsoft trust the driver itself. It is trusting > > > the providence of the blob,

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:23 AM Justin Forbes wrote: > > Apple and Microsoft signing NVIDIA's proprietary driver doesn't at all > > indicate Apple and Microsoft trust the driver itself. It is trusting > > the providence of the blob, in order to achieve an overall safer > > ecosystem for their

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 6:06 PM Brian C. Lane wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 06:50:39PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:54 AM Ben Cotton wrote: > > >syslinux goes away entirely > > > > If the installation media used BIOS GRUB, syslinux could still go > > away. What

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Tue, Apr 05, 2022 at 06:50:39PM -0600, Chris Murphy wrote: > On Tue, Apr 5, 2022 at 8:54 AM Ben Cotton wrote: > >syslinux goes away entirely > > If the installation media used BIOS GRUB, syslinux could still go > away. What consideration has occurred to switch from syslinux to BIOS > GRUB for

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 5:37 PM Demi Marie Obenour wrote: > > On 4/6/22 16:59, Robbie Harwood wrote: > > Demi Marie Obenour writes: > > > >> On 4/5/22 12:29, Michael Catanzaro wrote: > >>> On Tue, Apr 5 2022 at 11:56:07 AM -0400, Robbie Harwood > >>> wrote: > Users wishing to use NVIDIA

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Demi Marie Obenour writes: > On 4/6/22 16:59, Robbie Harwood wrote: >> Demi Marie Obenour writes: >> >>> On 4/5/22 12:29, Michael Catanzaro wrote: On Tue, Apr 5 2022 at 11:56:07 AM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > Users wishing to use NVIDIA hardware have the following options:

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On 4/6/22 16:59, Robbie Harwood wrote: > Demi Marie Obenour writes: > >> On 4/5/22 12:29, Michael Catanzaro wrote: >>> On Tue, Apr 5 2022 at 11:56:07 AM -0400, Robbie Harwood >>> wrote: Users wishing to use NVIDIA hardware have the following options: - Use nouveau (free, open

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Demi Marie Obenour writes: > On 4/6/22 06:43, Neal Gompa wrote: >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:04 AM Gary Buhrmaster >> wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:59 AM Demi Marie Obenour >>> wrote: On 4/5/22 19:38, Chris Murphy wrote: > We either want users with NVIDIA hardware to

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski writes: > On Wednesday, 06 April 2022 at 13:07, Richard Hughes wrote: >> Dominik 'Rathann' Mierzejewski wrote: >> and on its way out. As it ages, maintainability has decreased, and the status quo of maintaining both stacks in perpetuity is not viable

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Demi Marie Obenour writes: > On 4/5/22 12:29, Michael Catanzaro wrote: >> On Tue, Apr 5 2022 at 11:56:07 AM -0400, Robbie Harwood >> wrote: >>> Users wishing to use NVIDIA hardware have the following options: >>> >>> - Use nouveau (free, open source, cool) >>> - Sign their own copy of the

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 06, 2022 at 11:02:17AM -0400, Robbie Harwood wrote: > "Andre Robatino" writes: > > > Those figures are recommended minimums, not requirements. I have a > > single core F35 machine which works fine. > > It's important to note here that "works fine" isn't the same as "is > supported".

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 5:51 PM Jared Dominguez wrote: [snip] > > Per my reply to you yesterday, I would be grateful if you would list out > examples here. This is the second time I've heard this, and it's not concrete > enough for a constructive conversation on that topic. > >> 2. The

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6 2022 at 03:35:38 PM -0400, Jared Dominguez wrote: This seems like a strong assumption to me considering that aside from the largest cloud providers (with whom Red Hat is directly working with on UEFI boot features and bug reports), cloud providers are using off-the-shelf

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

Hi, On 4/6/22 16:23, Neal Gompa wrote: > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 10:18 AM Hans de Goede wrote: >> >> Hi, >> >> > behalf of my employer (Red Hat)> >> >> On 4/5/22 16:52, Ben Cotton wrote: >>> https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Changes/DeprecateLegacyBIOS >> >> >> >>> Fedora already requires a 2GHz

Re: F37 Change: Deprecate Legacy BIOS (System-Wide Change proposal)

On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 4:09 PM Demi Marie Obenour wrote: > > On 4/6/22 06:43, Neal Gompa wrote: > > On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:04 AM Gary Buhrmaster > > wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Apr 6, 2022 at 12:59 AM Demi Marie Obenour > >> wrote: > >>> > >>> On 4/5/22 19:38, Chris Murphy wrote: > We

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