On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 10:31 AM, Casey Dahlin cdah...@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 08:01:54AM -0400, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
And the main lesson her is don't clutter the user interface with
useless graphical eye candy. It makes the boot process require
unnecessary system
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:20:21AM -0400, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
It's unfortunately demoware. While the LinuxBIOS project has optimized
BIOS on a few systrems, server grade hardware can take up to five
minutes simply to get past all the Power-On-Self-Test operations. And
just because the
Ray Strode wrote:
We start plymouth in the initrd, and we
don't have fonts, translations, font rendering libraries or anything
in the initrd. we could ship those things in the initrd but it would
make the initrd substantially larger.
How about turning the messages that Plymouth needs to
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 3:30 AM, Björn Persson
bj...@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se wrote:
Ray Strode wrote:
We start plymouth in the initrd, and we
don't have fonts, translations, font rendering libraries or anything
in the initrd. we could ship those things in the initrd but it would
make the initrd
On 03/11/2013 08:49 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
On 03/11/2013 02:41 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Yes, why not display the Grub menu?
Because it's the year 2013. Not 1999.
Whether any text is displayed or not, there still needs to be a long
enough pause that the user has time to press a
On 03/11/2013 09:20 PM, seth vidal wrote:
On Mon, 11 Mar 2013 21:07:32 +0100
Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote:
I don't think we should generate any message. Nothing at all. My BIOS
doesn't print a single line, and neither does the kernel if quiet is
used (which is the default).
On 03/11/2013 09:45 PM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Lun 11 mars 2013 21:16, Lennart Poettering a écrit :
On Mon, 11.03.13 13:08, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote:
On Mar 11, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Björn Persson bj...@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se
wrote:
Or nothing at all displayed unless the
On 03/11/2013 09:50 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Chris Murphy wrote:
A multiboot system needs at least a message to inform the user how to get to
the boot manager (the GRUB menu). A Fedora only system probably should
entirely suppress the menu or notice how to get to it.
What if I need to
On 03/11/2013 10:30 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Lennart Poettering wrote:
On Mon, 11.03.13 21:20, Björn Persson (bjorn@rombobjörn.se) wrote:
Peter Robinson wrote:
It use to only be displayed if there was more than one OS configured
or if the CTRL was held down. Having to press a particular key
On 03/11/2013 10:48 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Lennart Poettering wrote:
(And on EFI systems that do not initialize USB anymore during POST, you
have to go through the OS to get into the boot loader anyway...)
That's going to be real fun when the OS fails to boot, and I can't fix
the boot
On 03/12/2013 01:07 PM, Nico Kadel-Garcia wrote:
On Mon, Mar 11, 2013 at 4:16 PM, Lennart Poettering
mzerq...@0pointer.de wrote:
On Mon, 11.03.13 13:08, Chris Murphy (li...@colorremedies.com) wrote:
On Mar 11, 2013, at 11:31 AM, Björn Persson bj...@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se
wrote:
Or nothing at
Why is it so imtimidating / confusing to noobs?
Dan
On Wednesday, March 13, 2013, deep64blue wrote:
On Wed Mar 13 00:32:09 UTC 2013 Máirín Duffy wrote:
Displaying information geared towards power users by default is
intimidating / confusing to less-knowledgeable users.
Surely if our
On 03/12/2013 02:33 PM, Lennart Poettering wrote:
On Tue, 12.03.13 09:13, Steve Clark (scl...@netwolves.com) wrote:
How many times do you boot your system each day? 10? Okay thats a
whole 20 additional seconds.
This is way up on my list of most non-sensical arguments about building
OSes,
On 03/14/2013 06:52 AM, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
On 03/11/2013 08:49 PM, Michael Cronenworth wrote:
On 03/11/2013 02:41 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Yes, why not display the Grub menu?
Because it's the year 2013. Not 1999.
Whether any text is displayed or not, there still needs to be a long
enough
On 03/14/2013 07:06 AM, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
On 03/11/2013 10:48 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Lennart Poettering wrote:
(And on EFI systems that do not initialize USB anymore during POST, you
have to go through the OS to get into the boot loader anyway...)
That's going to be real fun when the OS
On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 09:09 -0400, Steve Clark wrote:
On 03/14/2013 07:06 AM, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
On 03/11/2013 10:48 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Lennart Poettering wrote:
(And on EFI systems that do not initialize USB anymore during POST, you
have to go through the OS to get into
On Thu, 2013-03-14 at 11:52 +0100, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
Intentionally dumbing down the system so that even idiots can use it
will result in *only* idiots using it.
You should tone down your comments a little. Denigrating people who
don't share knowledge about computers at a level similar to
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 03:37:23AM -0700, Dan Mashal wrote:
When I think of improving the booting experience tonight, I think of a
booter that can't repair itself when it's broken not Plymouth...can we
fix real broken things before we fix an annoying thing like plymouth?
Of course we can. The
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 12:12:54PM +0100, Denys Vlasenko wrote:
+1
-1
Or in other words: This is not Google+, please don't quote entire
emails. I do remember the AOL time. An argument can stand on itself
without a popularity vote.
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Regards,
Olav
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On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 18:05 +0100, Jan Dvořák wrote:
* Holding key on BIOS machines usually results in a long beep
sound and keyboard lockup. I never understood why.
AIUI, key repetition and a very short buffer holding only a low number
(16 I believe) of unprocessed key events. When the
Hi,
On Thu, Mar 14, 2013 at 6:30 AM, Björn Persson
bj...@xn--rombobjrn-67a.se wrote:
How about turning the messages that Plymouth needs to display into
pictures? There would be a set of pre-rendered image files with
translations of the phrase Press Esc if you want to see what's going
on. for
On 03/11/2013 05:03 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Your TV (which likely has embedded Linux)? Your car?
Windows? OS X?
I don't have any of those, and I doubt I'll ever buy a car when I want
a general-purpose computer.
How do you know you don't have them? They don't show anything at boot,
and run
Przemek Klosowski wrote:
On 03/11/2013 05:03 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Your TV (which likely has embedded Linux)? Your car?
Windows? OS X?
I don't have any of those, and I doubt I'll ever buy a car when I want
a general-purpose computer.
How do you know you don't have them?
On 14/03/13 10:51 AM, Björn Persson wrote:
Przemek Klosowski wrote:
On 03/11/2013 05:03 PM, Björn Persson wrote:
Your TV (which likely has embedded Linux)? Your car?
Windows? OS X?
I don't have any of those, and I doubt I'll ever buy a car when I want
a general-purpose computer.
How do
On Wed, 13.03.13 15:14, Chris Adams (cmad...@hiwaay.net) wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 02:52:23PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
That doesn't seem all that significant to me; I guess we have different
measures (to me significantly
Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de said:
Well, then update your hardware. As mentioned before, the Windows 8
certification requires POST of 2s on SSD, and 4s on rotating media.
Well, no. My hardware works just fine; I intend to use it for years to
come. I really don't
Am 14.03.2013 21:50, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
Well, then update your hardware
That effectively means that *virtually all* laptops from 2013 on will
POST in ridiculously short times.
Really, just go to your computer store, and look for any laptop that is
designed for Windows 8
WOW
On 14/03/13 01:52 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 14.03.2013 21:50, schrieb Lennart Poettering:
Well, then update your hardware
That effectively means that *virtually all* laptops from 2013 on will
POST in ridiculously short times.
Really, just go to your computer store, and look for any laptop
I think this thread has run it's course...
lets stop here, and those folks with concrete changes or proposals can
work on those. I don't think we are adding much new to the debate at
this point.
kevin
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Dne 12.3.2013 19:16, Ray Strode napsal(a):
Hi,
This is an interesting idea, but I don't think plymouth makes it any
easier to display CJK Indic glyphs. (Please someone more technical
tell me if I'm wrong here, I vaguely remember this being an issue when
we wanted to add a messagse to fedup)
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:10 AM, Nicolas Mailhot
nicolas.mail...@laposte.net wrote:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 21:53, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
I tried breaking this thread down into its components and summarizing
the discussion and points brought up thus far. I hope it helps:
On Wed Mar 13 00:32:09 UTC 2013 Máirín Duffy wrote:
Displaying information geared towards power users by default is
intimidating / confusing to less-knowledgeable users.
Surely if our target audience / user base is those who have a
capability / interest in contributing then we shouldn't be
On 12 March 2013 22:13, Simo Sorce s...@redhat.com wrote:
Why should the default configuration be ugly, slow, and biased toward
handling the odd case when things break ?
I confess I've only been lightly skimming this entire deeply
interesting thread, on which more man hours have almost
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 10:16 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 13.03.2013 02:54, schrieb Simo Sorce:
On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 23:23 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 23:13, schrieb Simo Sorce:
On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 22:37 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 12.03.2013 22:34, schrieb Simo
On 03/13/2013 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
- (Nobody explicitly stated this, but) Displaying information geared
towards power users by default is intimidating / confusing to
less-knowledgeable users.
I'd call this to be an urban legend. A boot menu is self-explanatory,
even to new-comers.
On 03/13/2013 12:47 AM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
I read the blog and I was NOT talking about your blog post. Rereading
what I wrote does show that I did not convey that clearly. What I was
trying to refer to was that over the long winding thread others have
pointed out that this would be
On Wed 13 Mar 2013 08:53:32 AM EDT, Reindl Harald wrote:
i wonder how i survived to learn all this stuff which
is so confusing - why do linux need to handhold anybody
which does get scared from a simple menu where each trained
monkey in doubt seletcs the first entry?
Clearly you're a genius,
On 13 March 2013 12:46, Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 03/13/2013 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
- (Nobody explicitly stated this, but) Displaying information geared
towards power users by default is intimidating / confusing to
less-knowledgeable users.
I'd call this to be
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 01:32, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original
but some point in the the 500 ms boot time ideal ) seemed very much
a welded shut view. And as someone who has to worked
On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 15:47 +0100, Jan Dvořák wrote:
As have already been mentioned before, POSTing server takes so long
that GRUB delay is hardly noticeable. But what is worse, if you miss
the kernel selection dialog on a server, you look at UP TO FIVE MORE
MINUTES of waiting for the damn
From: Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com
I'm sure there were a bunch of sorry whiners
missing verbose text boot scrolling by their screen by default, in
favor of graphical boot.
Or perhaps those whiners consider themselves responsible employees by
being diligent in understanding what
From: Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com
On Mar 12, 2013, at 12:19 PM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote:
I personally could not care less about the defaults Fedora uses.
I've been overriding them for years. I'm just glad I was able to
learn these things before everything became hidden.
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 09:34 -0400, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote:
From: Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com
I'm sure there were a bunch of sorry whiners
missing verbose text boot scrolling by their screen by default, in
favor of graphical boot.
Or perhaps those whiners consider
Anyway, here is a proposal for an alternative way to deal with the boot
sequence.
1. the bootloader screen is no longer themed with colour backgrounds but
is predominantly black and white. Boot is transitioning from a black shut
down screen so any colour or grey background is going to flash.
On Tue, Mar 12, 2013 at 11:52:40PM +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
rescue system. (that's why safety jackets use flashy unfashionable colors)
So we should make the boot loader use flashy unfashionable colors because it
makes it more reliable?
Ok that's silly, but it's also silly for safety
From: Simo Sorce s...@redhat.com
To: Development discussions related to Fedora
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Date: 03/13/2013 09:47
Subject: Re: Improving the Fedora boot experience
Sent by: devel-boun...@lists.fedoraproject.org
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 09:34 -0400, john.flor...@dart.biz
On 03/13/2013 09:28 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 01:32, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
On 03/12/2013 07:24 PM, Stephen John Smoogen wrote:
I am saying this because I agree. To me the proposal (not the original
but some point in the the 500 ms boot time ideal ) seemed very much
a
From: Nicolas Mailhot nicolas.mail...@laposte.net
Anyway, here is a proposal for an alternative way to deal with the boot
sequence.
1. the bootloader screen is no longer themed with colour backgrounds but
is predominantly black and white. Boot is transitioning from a black
shut
down
Hi,
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 14:29:34 +0100 Nils Philippsen n...@redhat.com wrote:
Otherwise, no or a short timeout is used. I'm sure finding the best
thresholds, length of the list etc. needs some experimenting, but
besides that I don't see a glaring error with this idea. What do you
think?
I
Am 13.03.2013 13:46, schrieb Máirín Duffy:
If the general principle of 'specialized technical crap confuses people
who don't understand it' is a mystical urban legend to you, you might
want to try teaching a class to less-experienced computer users or
watching usability test videos. Or maybe
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 15:26, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
Máirín,
I would argue that throwing information up in people's faces 100% of the
time when it's useless to over 95% of those people is like throwing a
text in Japanese at a non-Japanese English speaker in the hopes that
somehow they would be
On 03/13/2013 10:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
If you're lamenting the cryptical form of the current strings I totally
agree with you but I don't think there is any technical limitation that
prevents improving this text instead of dumping the baby with the bath
water.
I'm not. I'm making an
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 14:29 +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
I don't see a glaring error with this idea. What do you
think?
Well, I talked to a few guys in the office about it and there's one
interesting issue with part of my idea: trying to detect multi-boot
environments means that the boot
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 10:48 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On 03/13/2013 10:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
If you're lamenting the cryptical form of the current strings I totally
agree with you but I don't think there is any technical limitation that
prevents improving this text instead of
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 15:48, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
On 03/13/2013 10:43 AM, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
If you're lamenting the cryptical form of the current strings I totally
agree with you but I don't think there is any technical limitation that
prevents improving this text instead of dumping the
On 03/13/2013 10:57 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote:
I'm with you that users shouldn't see this by default, but rather e.g.
upon encountering an error condition (or if configured differently).
However, we still could use better wording for such a message, even if
we restrict ourselves to English,
Dne 13.3.2013 14:23, Ian Malone napsal(a):
Are teens and pre-teens fedora's main target audience now? I'm really
not sure what it is anymore.
Are you suggesting that we should exclude them?
Vít
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On 03/13/2013 09:23 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
Then you have good students. Are teens and pre-teens fedora's main
target audience now? I'm really not sure what it is anymore.
Is there any good reason to exclude them?
I started using Linux (Red Hat 5.1) as a 3rd year high school student.
~m
--
On 13 March 2013 15:07, Vít Ondruch vondr...@redhat.com wrote:
Dne 13.3.2013 14:23, Ian Malone napsal(a):
Are teens and pre-teens fedora's main target audience now? I'm really not
sure what it is anymore.
Are you suggesting that we should exclude them?
Yes okay, that's what I'm
On Tue, 2013-03-12 at 23:52 +0100, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mar 12 mars 2013 19:04, Peter Jones a écrit :
Obviously we need to do a good job of making sure we tolerate failures,
and there are multiple ways to do this - if you reboot N times within M
seconds or somesuch might be a
From: Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org
Why not put it in the control panel on the running system along with
other system-level options, though? Doesn't that make more sense rather
than separating it out for access only in a completely different
context?
Because maybe your computer
I know it is a simplification, but to me, the two sides of this
argument are:
* remove the hood of the car, and keep it off in case something
goes wrong, or to entice new drivers to look in there and guess
what is going on. * keep the hood of the car on, and if something
goes wrong, pop
On 03/13/2013 02:23 PM, Ian Malone wrote:
On 13 March 2013 12:46, Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 03/13/2013 12:26 AM, Ralf Corsepius wrote:
- (Nobody explicitly stated this, but) Displaying information geared
towards power users by default is intimidating / confusing to
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 15:16, Nicolas Mailhot a écrit :
Anyway, here is a proposal for an alternative way to deal with the boot
sequence.
(btw, in case it is not obvious, the solution described here is a form of
dead-man switch, which is a proven method to handle operator failures. In
the case
On 13 March 2013 12:46, Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
No, a boot menu is not self-explanatory, and no, this is not an 'urban
legend.' How do you even come up with associating the term 'urban
legend' to statement saying that a complex screen is confusing to casual
computer users?
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 11:04 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
In that situation my first instinct would be to go into the control
panel and poke around and see if there was something I could fix
there, and maybe search online for an answer. My first instinct would
not be to reboot the system and go
On 2013-03-13 17:29 (GMT+0200) Sebastian Mäki composed:
* remove the hood of the car, and keep it off in case something
goes wrong, or to entice new drivers to look in there and guess
what is going on. * keep the hood of the car on, and if something
goes wrong, pop it. If the driver wants to
From: Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org
Why not put it in the control panel on the running system along with
other system-level options, though? Doesn't that make more sense rather
than separating it out for access only in a completely different context?
On 03/13/2013 11:26 AM,
On Wed, 2013-03-13 at 11:04 -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On 03/13/2013 10:57 AM, Nils Philippsen wrote:
I'm with you that users shouldn't see this by default, but rather e.g.
upon encountering an error condition (or if configured differently).
However, we still could use better wording for
On 03/13/2013 11:51 AM, Felix Miata wrote:
On 2013-03-13 17:29 (GMT+0200) Sebastian Mäki composed:
* remove the hood of the car, and keep it off in case something
goes wrong, or to entice new drivers to look in there and guess
what is going on. * keep the hood of the car on, and if something
On 03/13/2013 11:46 AM, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
This brings the question, how do you do your update?
I actually do updates via the package kit nag thing that pops up from
the messaging tray, and I rarely pay attention to the list of packages.
I just don't have the time to bother, and if that's
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 16:52, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
From: Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org
Why not put it in the control panel on the running system along with
other system-level options, though? Doesn't that make more sense rather
than separating it out for access only in a completely
Le Mer 13 mars 2013 17:00, Máirín Duffy a écrit :
It's been a really long time since a kernel update broke something on my
system as well. I think the last time might have been around F14, there
had been a kernel update that broke suspend on my Thinkpad x61. A fix
came out shortly after.
On Wed 13 Mar 2013 12:19:39 PM EDT, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
This is no luck, you are using the exact class of hardware @rh dev use,
which is pretty much the safest setup for Fedora (and it's not the least
expensive hardware on the market either).
This is my last message to this thread.
I am
On 13 Mar 2013, at 10:16, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Anyway, here is a proposal for an alternative way to deal with the
boot
sequence.
There have been a number of suggestions that have taken a Windows 8
approach to this problem -- auto-detecting error conditions or
enabling one to reboot
On Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:52:24 -0400 Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com
wrote:
+ If a user could hold the key down from before power on until the
boot options menu appeared, then Fedora could still do extremely fast
booting without presenting the user with a short time interval to
On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:42 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote:
I do. Curious, isn't it, how I managed to stumble into linux boot
loading, and file systems of all things, never having a single
chance of seeing such things? They weren't merely hidden from me.
They didn't even exist.
Well
On Tue, 12.03.13 21:50, Felix Miata (mrma...@earthlink.net) wrote:
On 2013-03-12 14:33 (GMT+0100) Lennart Poettering composed:
Fast boot times ... increase reliability, and
How?
Shorter downtimes if things go wrong? You are back again at full
redundancy if you needed the redundancy?
You
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 12:52:24PM -0400, Mike Pinkerton wrote:
I recall there was some objection about BIOS buffer clearing, and
don't know what problems that would present to this proposal. On
the plus side, though, there wouldn't be any need for gnarly auto-
detection of error conditions.
On Mar 13, 2013, at 9:52 AM, Máirín Duffy du...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
On 03/13/2013 11:26 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote:
Because maybe your computer boots just fine but you're screens are all
garbled or just black.
This is a really good point. In this situation I probably would
On 13 March 2013 11:05, Chris Murphy li...@colorremedies.com wrote:
On Mar 13, 2013, at 7:42 AM, john.flor...@dart.biz wrote:
I do. Curious, isn't it, how I managed to stumble into linux boot
loading, and file systems of all things, never having a single
chance of seeing such things? They
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Worse than that, having grub check for a held key will significantly
slow down the boot process even if there's no key being held.
How long is significantly? How hard is it to check for a keypress?
--
Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net
Once upon a time, Lennart Poettering mzerq...@0pointer.de said:
A system with a slow boot can be used in many applications. A system
with a fast boot can be used in all those plus many more.
It's not that hard to see, is it?
Well, yeah, what are the many more applications made possible by a
On 03/13/2013 02:33 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
Also, dropping the boot loader menu might be okay for single-OS
systems (I'm not convinced, but whatever). What about dual-boot? If I
tell someone running Windows to try Fedora to see Linux in action,
they are not going to be very happy if, after
Once upon a time, Rahul Sundaram methe...@gmail.com said:
On 03/13/2013 02:33 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
Also, dropping the boot loader menu might be okay for single-OS
systems (I'm not convinced, but whatever). What about dual-boot? If I
tell someone running Windows to try Fedora to see Linux
On 03/13/2013 02:45 PM, Chris Adams wrote:
Sorry, I have not seen it rehashed many times in this thread, but
maybe I missed a bunch of messages. Then for consistency, treat
single-boot (with multiple kernel options) the same as dual-boot.
There's not enough gain to justify extra code to handle
On Mar 13, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com wrote:
Let me make a case for an Apple approach. Although the reaction here was
somewhat dismissive of the various start-up keys that Apple enables, the
Apple approach does have three great advantages:
Those advantages
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 01:28:36PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Worse than that, having grub check for a held key will significantly
slow down the boot process even if there's no key being held.
How long is significantly? How hard
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 01:28:36PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Worse than that, having grub check for a held key will significantly
slow down the boot process even if
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 11:14:05AM -0400, Máirín Duffy wrote:
On 03/13/2013 09:23 AM, Ian Malone wrote:
Then you have good students. Are teens and pre-teens fedora's main
target audience now? I'm really not sure what it is anymore.
Is there any good reason to exclude them?
I started
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 02:52:23PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
How long is significantly? How hard is it to check for a keypress?
On the order of a second or two.
That doesn't seem all that significant to me; I guess we have
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 02:52:23PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 01:28:36PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Worse than that, having grub check for a held
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 8:52 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 01:28:36PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Worse than that, having grub check for
Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said:
Seems like you are used to slow boots.
Watch (or even use) a system with non rotating media (i.e SSDs) that
does not have a ton of crap set up to be started on boot and you will
notice this 1 or 2 seconds as significant.
My main home system
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 02:52:23PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
That doesn't seem all that significant to me; I guess we have different
measures (to me significantly slow down the boot process would be
something on the order of 5-10
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 9:12 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, drago01 drag...@gmail.com said:
Seems like you are used to slow boots.
Watch (or even use) a system with non rotating media (i.e SSDs) that
does not have a ton of crap set up to be started on boot and you
On 2013-03-13 12:51 (GMT-0600) Chris Murphy composed:
By the way, in this brave new fast boot world, how is one expected to get to
the BIOS or firmware set-up programs?
Firmware specific. F1 and F2 are very common. HP and some Toshibas are Esc.
I've found DEL to be far and away most
On Wed, Mar 13, 2013 at 03:14:01PM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
I haven't seen systems that boot in less than 6 seconds (and by boot I
mean power-on to login prompt). Maybe they exist, but that is not my
experience with common hardware.
At FOSDEM they demonstrated 2 seconds for kernel +
On 13 Mar 2013, at 14:51, Chris Murphy wrote:
By the way, in this brave new fast boot world, how is one expected
to get to the BIOS or firmware set-up programs?
Firmware specific. F1 and F2 are very common. HP and some Toshibas
are Esc.
My question was more timing than keystroke --
On Mar 13, 2013, at 4:56 PM, Mike Pinkerton pseli...@mindspring.com wrote:
On 13 Mar 2013, at 14:51, Chris Murphy wrote:
By the way, in this brave new fast boot world, how is one expected to get
to the BIOS or firmware set-up programs?
Firmware specific. F1 and F2 are very common.
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