On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 7:43 PM, Jef Spaleta jspal...@gmail.com wrote:
If you haven't read the new summary write-up on the benefits of the
/user feature that I think you would benefit from reading it.
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge
If you have read it,
On 01/28/2012 10:47 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
[1] Improved compatibility with Solaris - Seriously? We didn't need
that level of compatibility back when Linux was a small niche, why
would we care now?
I feel mildly insulted by that argument.
Why stop with Solaris compatibility and not mimick
Morning people,
Having just caught onto this thread about half way through and now read
the various pages concerning the topic, I am still in the dark about
going forward.
I have 3 machines running F15 that I am upgrading to F16 shortly. I have
been using yum to upgrade 2 of them since Fedora
On Fri, 27.01.12 22:40, Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
people targetting FHS compliant systems (unless the FHS changes)
That's the biggest flaw of this feature: It violates the FHS!
You know, not even its former editor seems to to believe that (or that
On Sat, 28.01.12 11:29, Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) wrote:
On 01/28/2012 10:47 AM, Miloslav Trmač wrote:
[1] Improved compatibility with Solaris - Seriously? We didn't need
that level of compatibility back when Linux was a small niche, why
would we care now?
I feel mildly
On Sat, 2012-01-28 at 11:27 +, phantomjinx wrote:
Morning people,
Having just caught onto this thread about half way through and now read
the various pages concerning the topic, I am still in the dark about
going forward.
I have 3 machines running F15 that I am upgrading to F16
2012/1/28 Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de:
Why stop with Solaris compatibility and not mimick Windows?
No /usr, no /bin = /redhat. Seems to be the spirit behind all this.
Ralf
The rhetoric spoils the argument. Various people inside of Red Hat are
either for this, against this, wanting to
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 15:49 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 26.01.2012 15:07, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 14:19 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 26.01.2012 14:08, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
For the sake of completeness:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 03:22 +0100, Reindl Harald
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 14:51 +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Harald Hoyer har...@redhat.com wrote:
Am 25.01.2012 23:48, schrieb Peter Robinson:
Hi All,
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits.
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 23:53 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/118#comment:7
Well, IMHO if this is not safe to do in a %pretrans, it is not safe to do at
all.
You seem to imply doing things in %pretrans is somehow safer than
somewhere
Am 27.01.2012 14:15, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 15:49 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
there is no limited sense of security
each machine has a clone for backup-reasons
this clones are updated first
so after that i know the exactly behavior
In a strict sense, no, you
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 02:27:59PM +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 23:53 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I don't understand why we absolutely HAVE to change directories to symlinks
when we KNOW RPM doesn't support this, and that in directories as
Am 27.01.2012 18:00, schrieb Toshio Kuratomi:
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 02:27:59PM +0100, Nils Philippsen wrote:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 23:53 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I don't understand why we absolutely HAVE to change directories to symlinks
when we KNOW RPM doesn't
On 01/27/2012 06:05 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
Actually... we will always need the compat symlinks (for a finite but
definitely long value of always). Third party scripts, scripts that have
been in use on local systems, written by people who have long
Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) said:
On 01/27/2012 06:05 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
Actually... we will always need the compat symlinks (for a finite but
definitely long value of always). Third party scripts, scripts that have
been in use on
Am 27.01.2012 18:33, schrieb Bill Nottingham:
Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) said:
On 01/27/2012 06:05 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
Actually... we will always need the compat symlinks (for a finite but
definitely long value of always). Third
On 01/27/2012 12:09 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
why in the world is a currently useless feature much more forced
than the change of the init-system?
perhaps this change is wanted/needed by the new init system for some
reason that may not be apparent at the moment ...
resource usage
On 01/27/2012 07:32 PM, Genes MailLists wrote:
perhaps this change is wanted/needed by the new init system
No, systemd does not care.
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
if you finally want have /bin as symlink forever this whole
change is only wasted time and makes no sense at all
If you haven't read the new summary write-up on the benefits of the
/user feature that I think you would
On 01/27/2012 01:43 PM, Jef Spaleta wrote:
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Reindl Haraldh.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
if you finally want have /bin as symlink forever this whole
change is only wasted time and makes no sense at all
If you haven't read the new summary write-up on the benefits
On 01/28/2012 12:59 AM, Steve Clark wrote:
So this is all for the benefit of the/some Vendor?
??? Read the pages
https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Features/UsrMove
http://www.freedesktop.org/wiki/Software/systemd/TheCaseForTheUsrMerge
If you have questions, please be specific.
Rahul
--
Nils Philippsen wrote:
You seem to imply doing things in %pretrans is somehow safer than
somewhere else. I don't think so -- as Panu said: The whole %pretrans
thing is a scary hack that's best seen as a last resort to do the
minimal required tweak that just cannot be done elsewhere...
I do
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
people targetting FHS compliant systems (unless the FHS changes)
That's the biggest flaw of this feature: It violates the FHS!
Kevin Kofler
--
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devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 07:40 -0800, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 03:26:01PM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 09:25:31AM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:34
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 09:24 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Reindl Harald wrote:
i made several HUNDRET of dist-upgrades with yum since FC3 and
upgrade via DVD/Preupgrade is simply UNACEPPTABLE
+1
IMHO this is a showstopper and approval for UsrMove should be withdrawn and
the feature
On 01/27/2012 06:33 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Ralf Corsepius (rc040...@freenet.de) said:
On 01/27/2012 06:05 PM, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
Actually... we will always need the compat symlinks (for a finite but
definitely long value of always). Third
On 01/27/2012 07:43 PM, Jef Spaleta wrote:
On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 8:43 AM, Reindl Haraldh.rei...@thelounge.net wrote:
if you finally want have /bin as symlink forever this whole
change is only wasted time and makes no sense at all
If you haven't read the new summary write-up on the benefits
Adam Williamson wrote:
The reason yum upgrades are not supported is specifically to leave
open the possibility of doing significant changes that are not
compatible with yum upgrades, if the significant change has a large
enough benefit to be worth the pain of breaking the yum upgrade path.
Reindl Harald wrote:
i made several HUNDRET of dist-upgrades with yum since FC3 and
upgrade via DVD/Preupgrade is simply UNACEPPTABLE
+1
IMHO this is a showstopper and approval for UsrMove should be withdrawn and
the feature reverted.
Kevin Kofler
--
devel mailing list
Greg wrote:
i don't have any problems downloading a DvD, or a LiveCD
Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing systems.
As for the DVD, it does not include the updates repository when doing
upgrades (you can only add additional repositories for fresh installations),
which means the process
I wrote:
IMHO this is a showstopper and approval for UsrMove should be withdrawn
and the feature reverted.
PS: Oh, and I don't see why this cannot be fixed by a %pretrans scriptlet in
filesystem rather than a script we have to run by hand. That's what
%pretrans is for. (We successfully used
Aleksandar Kurtakov:
- Original Message -
From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net
To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:15:51 AM
Subject: Re: UsrMove feature breaking yum upgrade upgrades from older
releases to F17?
Am 26.01.2012 05:02, schrieb
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 10:48:27PM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
Hi All,
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits. Checking the update [1] and reading the
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 8:24 AM, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at wrote:
Reindl Harald wrote:
i made several HUNDRET of dist-upgrades with yum since FC3 and
upgrade via DVD/Preupgrade is simply UNACEPPTABLE
+1
IMHO this is a showstopper and approval for UsrMove should be withdrawn and
On 01/26/2012 02:34 AM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 10:48:27PM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
Hi All,
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits. Checking the update [1] and reading the
attached bug [2] I was a little
On 26/01/2012 7:31 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing systems.
As for the DVD, it does not include the updates repository when doing
upgrades (you can only add additional repositories for fresh installations),
which means the process is completely broken due to
Am 26.01.2012 10:42, schrieb Greg:
if one doesnt like it then all i can suggest is move to a different Distro.
just because it's gonna interupt people from using yum upgrade dist or
whatever. this is the 21st century yanno. technology does improve
or get better.
where is the improvement
On 26/01/2012 8:58 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
where is the improvement or does anything get better if things
worked for years got damaged? you definition of improvement
must have a bug!
first thing. i agree that the Linux Filesystem needs to be cleaned up.
by doing what redhat/Fedora is
Am 26.01.2012 12:29, schrieb Greg:
On 26/01/2012 8:58 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
where is the improvement or does anything get better if things
worked for years got damaged? you definition of improvement
must have a bug!
first thing. i agree that the Linux Filesystem needs to be cleaned up.
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 08:42:15PM +1100, Greg wrote:
On 26/01/2012 7:31 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Live CDs cannot be used to upgrade existing systems.
As for the DVD, it does not include the updates repository when doing
upgrades (you can only add additional repositories for fresh
For the sake of completeness:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 03:22 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
after a yum upgrade you can verify that the most important
things are fine BEFORE reboot (bootloader-config,
package-cleanup --problems, ), optimize/correct things
you know are not fine after the upgrade
Am 26.01.2012 14:08, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
For the sake of completeness:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 03:22 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
after a yum upgrade you can verify that the most important
things are fine BEFORE reboot (bootloader-config,
package-cleanup --problems, ),
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 14:19 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 26.01.2012 14:08, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
For the sake of completeness:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 03:22 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
after a yum upgrade you can verify that the most important
things are fine BEFORE reboot
Am 25.01.2012 23:48, schrieb Peter Robinson:
Hi All,
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits. Checking the update [1] and reading the
attached bug [2] I was a little shocked to find that yum upgrade
between releases would be
Am 26.01.2012 15:07, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 14:19 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 26.01.2012 14:08, schrieb Nils Philippsen:
For the sake of completeness:
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 03:22 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
after a yum upgrade you can verify that the most
On 26/01/12 14:43, Harald Hoyer wrote:
Not really true. yum upgrade will be supported, but it needs a little help
with a special initramfs and an additional kernel command line parameter, so
that dracut can convert your filesystem. After this filesystem conversion, yum
upgrade will work without
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Harald Hoyer har...@redhat.com wrote:
Am 25.01.2012 23:48, schrieb Peter Robinson:
Hi All,
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits. Checking the update [1] and reading the
attached bug [2] I was a
Am 26.01.2012 15:51, schrieb Frank Murphy:
On 26/01/12 14:43, Harald Hoyer wrote:
Not really true. yum upgrade will be supported, but it needs a little help
with a special initramfs and an additional kernel command line parameter, so
that dracut can convert your filesystem. After this
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 09:25:31AM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
IIRC from the discussion in FPC meetings, there should be a way to make yum
upgrades work but you'd first have to boot up specially and run an initial
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 09:40:33AM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
I wrote:
IMHO this is a showstopper and approval for UsrMove should be withdrawn
and the feature reverted.
PS: Oh, and I don't see why this cannot be fixed by a %pretrans scriptlet in
filesystem rather than a script we have to
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 09:25:31AM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
IIRC from the discussion in FPC meetings, there should be a way to make yum
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 03:26:01PM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 3:22 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 09:25:31AM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com
wrote:
IIRC
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Harald Hoyer har...@redhat.com wrote:
Not really true. yum upgrade will be supported, but it needs a little help
with a special initramfs and an additional kernel command line parameter, so
that dracut can convert your filesystem. After this filesystem
Am 26.01.2012 17:19, schrieb Ed Marshall:
On Thu, Jan 26, 2012 at 6:43 AM, Harald Hoyer har...@redhat.com wrote:
Not really true. yum upgrade will be supported, but it needs a little help
with a special initramfs and an additional kernel command line parameter, so
that dracut can convert your
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
As you've been pointing out, this is a recipe for alpha slippage (and
since recently we've been slipping all later milestones, a slip in alpha
means a slip to the release) but I don't think the feature owners are
technically doing anything wrong under the current policy
Ed Marshall wrote:
Without revealing my own preference about rolling releases: how would
a change like this, whose deployment is *significantly* eased with
install-time magic, be deployed in a rolling-release world?
It would be guaranteed total and utter chaos.
Kevin Kofler
--
devel
Greg wrote:
as i will say again i have no problems downloading a LiveCD or a DvD. if
i have had 1 DE installed i'll download a LiveCD only rather than a DvD,
Have you even READ what I wrote? Live CDs CANNOT UPGRADE, only reinstall.
And no, I will definitely NOT reinstall at every release.
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
https://fedorahosted.org/fpc/ticket/118#comment:7
Well, IMHO if this is not safe to do in a %pretrans, it is not safe to do at
all.
I don't understand why we absolutely HAVE to change directories to symlinks
when we KNOW RPM doesn't support this, and that in directories
I wrote:
This is not the first time a feature which impacts the entire
distribution in a way which can break a lot of things gets rushed in so
late. I remember the ld DSO feature which changed decades-old ELF
semantics, breaking the build of dozens of packages, and which got rushed
into F13
Kevin Kofler wrote:
As I've already stated multiple
times, the DVD MUST be fixed to include the updates repository for
upgrades
And that means that bug 998 needs to be fixed.
Installing packages from the ISO image without checking them is OK, because a
security-conscious user will have
On Wed, Jan 25, 2012 at 10:48:27PM +, Peter Robinson wrote:
Hi All,
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits. Checking the update [1] and reading the
attached bug [2] I was a little shocked to find that yum upgrade
between
Am 25.01.2012 23:48, schrieb Peter Robinson:
So I saw a rpm update and a number of other builds today when dealing
with various packaging bits. Checking the update [1] and reading the
attached bug [2] I was a little shocked to find that yum upgrade
between releases would be explicitly broken
On 26/01/2012 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
i made several HUNDRED of dist-upgrades with yum since FC3 and
upgrade via DVD/Preupgrade is simply UNACEPPTABLE
i don't have any problems downloading a DvD, or a LiveCD
--
devel mailing list
devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Am 26.01.2012 03:03, schrieb Greg:
On 26/01/2012 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
i made several HUNDRED of dist-upgrades with yum since FC3 and
upgrade via DVD/Preupgrade is simply UNACEPPTABLE
i don't have any problems downloading a DvD, or a LiveCD
for one simple desktop, but realize your
On Thu, 2012-01-26 at 03:22 +0100, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 26.01.2012 03:03, schrieb Greg:
On 26/01/2012 12:46 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
i made several HUNDRED of dist-upgrades with yum since FC3 and
upgrade via DVD/Preupgrade is simply UNACEPPTABLE
i don't have any problems
Am 26.01.2012 04:48, schrieb Rahul Sundaram:
On 01/26/2012 08:36 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
Am 26.01.2012 03:57, schrieb Mathieu Bridon:
And realize that Fedora is a community project with no guarantee
whatsoever.
and that is a valueable argument for breaking things
without really good
On 01/26/2012 09:23 AM, Reindl Harald wrote:
i see really nothing wrong in demanding not break things randomly without
VERY good reasons and in this context it does relly not matter
if opensource /paid / whatever
Nobody breaks things randomly. Sometimes changes have unintentional
side
- Original Message -
From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net
To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:15:51 AM
Subject: Re: UsrMove feature breaking yum upgrade upgrades from older
releases to F17?
Am 26.01.2012 05:02, schrieb Rahul
Am 26.01.2012 08:06, schrieb Aleksandar Kurtakov:
- Original Message -
From: Reindl Harald h.rei...@thelounge.net
To: devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Sent: Thursday, January 26, 2012 7:15:51 AM
Subject: Re: UsrMove feature breaking yum upgrade upgrades fromolder
releases to F17
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