Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Kevin Fenzi]

crossposting to infra list to keep folks there in the loop...

On Tue, Jul 12, 2022 at 02:53:24PM +0100, Jonathan Wakely wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 15:06, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> > That said, IRC is actually one of the fastest ones we can push to.
> 
> Is https://apps.fedoraproject.org/notifications/ really still sending
> notifications to freenode though?
> 
> Hasn't everybody moved to libera?

yes. It's just incorrect/out of date there. 

Let me sum up what I know and perhaps I can point people to this post
later. :) 

The current state is bad. We know it's bad. We have known for a long
time that it's bad. It's bad for all of the following reasons: 

* It's running a python2 codebase. Upstream development/PR's have long
ago moved to python3, but thats not the version we current have
deployed. 

* It's heavily tied to the old account system. Several of us spent many
hours last week trying to untangle it. I think we might be getting close
now, but it's really hard to tell.

* It's pretty heavily tied to fedmsg (not fedora-messaging). fedmsg
still works of course, but it's another layer of confusion.

* It's rules/interface lets you do all kinds of cool things, but it's
complex and confusing to most everyone that tries to use it.

* It's running on a end of life OS version. ;( 

* In order to try to scale it has a number of layers of things which
makes it hard to debug. For example it uses redis, it's own rabbitmq
instance with a bunch of queues, multiple workers talking to all those
things and multiple backends for irc and email. You might think
performance shouldn't be a big deal, but when you have thousands of
users, each with their own custom rulesets, that means you have to
potentially match a incoming message against every single ruleset of
every user and you have to do it fast enough to keep up with the
incoming flow of messages and the outgoing flow of notifications. :( 

Short term, I would like to hope that the python2/current version can
catch mostly up. (Its currently 4 days behind). Once it does, I would
very much like to try switching to the python3 version. It has a lot of
the problems the existing one does, but it should also have some
advantages, like running on a supported OS, much easier to release and
deploy new versions, etc.

Longer term, we are just now starting an iniative to re-write FMN from
the ground up. It's going to be a while until it's ready, but I really
hope it will be much better for everyone involved. Better/easier
interface, much better handling of messages, etc.

Hope that helps clarify things...

kevin


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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Jonathan Wakely]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 15:06, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> That said, IRC is actually one of the fastest ones we can push to.

Is https://apps.fedoraproject.org/notifications/ really still sending
notifications to freenode though?

Hasn't everybody moved to libera?
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Stephen Smoogen]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 18:02, Demi Marie Obenour 
wrote:

>
> > While notifications is a great idea, it is also a hard problem. Please
> help
> > the team who will be working on it.
>
> In the case of email, is it possible to offload everything to a mail
> server like Postfix?  That should be able to deal with a huge queue
> without too many problems and without Fedora needing to write email
> handling code.  Just send the email to the mail server and let the
> mail server deal with delivery.
>
>
Sorry I was not clear on the complexity of the system. The FMN does not
handle email itself. It just sends it to postfix which then sends it to the
outbound email servers (which are also postfix). It is those queues which
get backed up on the bastion servers and regularly end up with hundreds of
thousands of queued up fmn. It also then queues up every other list,
general and other emails as every mail receiver that gets a firehose of
emails from us puts us on a 'you have sent too many emails from this ip
range, please wait 2 hours to resend.' type queue. This has gotten worse
over the years as more and more email addresses have moved to using Google,
Microsoft or whoever the third largest email sender is these days. [You
then spend a week of getting complaints about no email to some university
which decided to move their email to an outsourced email provider and find
its because too many other domain mailboxes got full.]



> For other services, one option would be a language
> (Erlang? Elixir?) designed for very high levels of concurrency and
> reliability.  That might be a better choice than Python.
>

I expect you know the following already, but this list does get read by
people who are fresh to software and aren't sure of all the 'shared'
caveats experienced coders like you have in your head when you made that
suggestion.

Changing languages is expensive.
a) people who knew those languages to code. [Having coders swap between
languages is fine for some coders but tends to make people double their
mistakes as they context switch between 'oooh I am needing to do it this
way']
b) people who knew those languages to debug/sysadmin. [Same context
switching.]
c) volunteers who don't through their hands up when faced with this box is
running X and this box is running Y.

There are not a lot of people who have volunteer time to work on
infrastructure code; in my 14 years of working with Fedora most of the
volunteer code ends up being rewritten/maintained by Red Hat staff because
the volunteer got it so far but has to focus on real life again.

There are also not a lot of people who have volunteer time to work in
infrastructure. There is a high trust bar to allowing people to touch
servers which potentially could alter builds or code. That means doing
'crap' work for a long time until someone feels you can get into a sysadmin
cycle which would allow various work to happen.

And there is a very limited budget for paying people to write code for
infrastructure. These days it is generally 'cheaper' to outsource various
things to some web-company than try to hire the 4-5 people minimal to build
a code base which is long term maintainable.

For this reason, the infrastructure group has stuck to a very limited set
of languages. Every time we have had something written in other languages,
they work great until the original person leaves. At which point every
change elsewhere in the infrastructure tends to cause that code to become
more and more fragile. We then try to find someone who can fix it.. and
then it ends up breaking worse. Eventually, if we have the time/ability it
is replaced with a python replacement.

-- 
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Demi Marie Obenour]

On 7/11/22 10:05, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 09:36, Petr Menšík  wrote:
> 
>> Do we have any notification alternative interface other than IRC? What
>> about pushing notifications to matrix, XMPP or other protocol/service?
>>
>> I think IRC has often also not-so-short delays. Is there something we
>> can to to improve the situation?
>>
>>
> At this point the code using FMN is getting rewritten and any additional
> notifications will need to be in that rewrite. That said, IRC is actually
> one of the fastest ones we can push to. Each additional service adds in
> slowdowns as the communication requires accounts, special routers, people
> who actually use those services to know how they work, and various other
> infrastructure with the only return being a ton of complaints when there is
> any problem in them.
> 
> Every person who uses notifications is an endpoint who has to be 'polled'
> by that notification, and there can be a lot of overhead in doing so even
> when people think of it as a fire-and-forget-bus. Every failed or slow or
> bad end-point slows down the entire system which grows over time. Email
> delivery problems from mailing lists are generally caused by the N hundred
> developers who decided they needed every notification as an email and have
> clogged up the outgoing queues because every mail system decides that a
> mass rebuild is a spam attack. The same goes with other systems (IRC, etc)
> where a large number of notifications do not look much different from a
> DOS.
> 
> While notifications is a great idea, it is also a hard problem. Please help
> the team who will be working on it.

In the case of email, is it possible to offload everything to a mail
server like Postfix?  That should be able to deal with a huge queue
without too many problems and without Fedora needing to write email
handling code.  Just send the email to the mail server and let the
mail server deal with delivery.

For other services, one option would be a language
(Erlang? Elixir?) designed for very high levels of concurrency and
reliability.  That might be a better choice than Python.
-- 
Sincerely,
Demi Marie Obenour (she/her/hers)
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Tomasz Torcz]

On Mon, Jul 11, 2022 at 03:36:08PM +0200, Petr Menšík wrote:
> Do we have any notification alternative interface other than IRC? What about
> pushing notifications to matrix, XMPP or other protocol/service?

  There were other channels like email, but they do not work, too.
I seem to recevive last notification by email in the middle of November 2021.

-- 
Tomasz TorczOnly gods can safely risk perfection,
to...@pipebreaker.pl it's a dangerous thing for a man.  — Alia
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Stephen Smoogen]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 09:36, Petr Menšík  wrote:

> Do we have any notification alternative interface other than IRC? What
> about pushing notifications to matrix, XMPP or other protocol/service?
>
> I think IRC has often also not-so-short delays. Is there something we
> can to to improve the situation?
>
>
At this point the code using FMN is getting rewritten and any additional
notifications will need to be in that rewrite. That said, IRC is actually
one of the fastest ones we can push to. Each additional service adds in
slowdowns as the communication requires accounts, special routers, people
who actually use those services to know how they work, and various other
infrastructure with the only return being a ton of complaints when there is
any problem in them.

Every person who uses notifications is an endpoint who has to be 'polled'
by that notification, and there can be a lot of overhead in doing so even
when people think of it as a fire-and-forget-bus. Every failed or slow or
bad end-point slows down the entire system which grows over time. Email
delivery problems from mailing lists are generally caused by the N hundred
developers who decided they needed every notification as an email and have
clogged up the outgoing queues because every mail system decides that a
mass rebuild is a spam attack. The same goes with other systems (IRC, etc)
where a large number of notifications do not look much different from a
DOS.

While notifications is a great idea, it is also a hard problem. Please help
the team who will be working on it.



-- 
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Petr Menšík]

Do we have any notification alternative interface other than IRC? What 
about pushing notifications to matrix, XMPP or other protocol/service?


I think IRC has often also not-so-short delays. Is there something we 
can to to improve the situation?


On 09. 07. 22 15:24, Ralf Corsépius wrote:

Hi,

I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was wrong.


I just received this:


Subject: corsepiu pushed 1 commit to rpms/perl-Sub-HandlesVia (rawhide)
Date: Sat,  9 Jul 2022 10:39:46 + (GMT)
From: notificati...@fedoraproject.org
...
Notification time stamped 2022-07-01 05:57:40 UTC
...



Ralf
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--
Petr Menšík
Software Engineer, RHEL
Red Hat, http://www.redhat.com/
PGP: DFCF908DB7C87E8E529925BC4931CA5B6C9FC5CB
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Stephen Smoogen]

On Mon, 11 Jul 2022 at 06:22, Sérgio Basto  wrote:

> On Mon, 2022-07-11 at 09:35 +0200, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> > On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 09:36:14AM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> > > On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > > Hi,
> > > >
> > > > I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I
> > > > was wrong.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called
> > > FMN. It is
> > > very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different
> > > reasons
> > > all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being
> > > replaced by
> > > CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish).
> >
> > Just a quick note, I doubt the app will be re-written and deploy in a
> > single
> > quarter, I expect this to be more a multi-months effort. So while it
> > has the top
> > of the priority list for CPE to work on, it'll still take a little
> > time before
> > we see a v4 (we've already restructured it 3 times).
> >
>
> I think you should disable the service or allocate someone to do
> something that mitigate the problem or reboot the service every time it
> stops
>
>
Like many services in Fedora, it is intertwined with other tools with a
bunch of duct tape and bailing wire that was going to be fixed when things
slowed down. You can't just disable it because then you cause other items
inside and outside of Fedora to break. You can't just reboot it because the
problem is usually some other service which is causing the holdup.

There are days when I regret leaving Fedora Infrastructure, but it is email
threads like this which remind me why I needed to.

-- 
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Sérgio Basto]

On Mon, 2022-07-11 at 09:35 +0200, Pierre-Yves Chibon wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 09:36:14AM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> > On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Hi,
> > > 
> > > I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I
> > > was wrong.
> > > 
> > > 
> > 
> > No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called
> > FMN. It is
> > very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different
> > reasons
> > all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being
> > replaced by
> > CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish). 
> 
> Just a quick note, I doubt the app will be re-written and deploy in a
> single
> quarter, I expect this to be more a multi-months effort. So while it
> has the top
> of the priority list for CPE to work on, it'll still take a little
> time before
> we see a v4 (we've already restructured it 3 times).
> 

I think you should disable the service or allocate someone to do
something that mitigate the problem or reboot the service every time it
stops 



> Pierre
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-- 
Sérgio M. B.
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 09:36:14AM -0400, Stephen Smoogen wrote:
> On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius  wrote:
> 
> > Hi,
> >
> > I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was wrong.
> >
> >
> 
> No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called FMN. It is
> very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different reasons
> all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being replaced by
> CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish). 

Just a quick note, I doubt the app will be re-written and deploy in a single
quarter, I expect this to be more a multi-months effort. So while it has the top
of the priority list for CPE to work on, it'll still take a little time before
we see a v4 (we've already restructured it 3 times).

Pierre
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Pierre-Yves Chibon]

On Sat, Jul 09, 2022 at 05:16:55PM +0200, Ralf Corsépius wrote:
> 
> 
> Am 09.07.22 um 15:36 schrieb Stephen Smoogen:
> > 
> > 
> > On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius  > > wrote:
> > 
> > Hi,
> > 
> > I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was
> > wrong.
> > 
> > 
> > 
> > No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called FMN. It
> > is very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different
> > reasons all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being
> > replaced by CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish). Until that
> > happens, please be aware that these notifications are likely to come in
> > bursts as things go up and down. I would also suggest that turning off
> > as many notifications as you can would help the load as one of the
> > largest email problems Fedora Infrastructure has is the many people who
> > have turned on getting email on a lot of events.
> 
> Why don't you turn this stuff off globally and send the guys behind it back
> to the drawing board?
> 
> In its present shape it's just dysfunctional and not helpful at all.

It is very much self-service, so you can easily turn off the notifications for
your account if you wish to:
https://apps.fedoraproject.org/notifications


Pierre
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Stephen Smoogen]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 11:18, Ralf Corsépius  wrote:

>
>
> Am 09.07.22 um 15:36 schrieb Stephen Smoogen:
> >
> >
> > On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius  > > wrote:
> >
> > Hi,
> >
> > I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was
> > wrong.
> >
> >
> >
> > No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called FMN. It
> > is very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different
> > reasons all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being
> > replaced by CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish). Until that
> > happens, please be aware that these notifications are likely to come in
> > bursts as things go up and down. I would also suggest that turning off
> > as many notifications as you can would help the load as one of the
> > largest email problems Fedora Infrastructure has is the many people who
> > have turned on getting email on a lot of events.
>
> Why don't you turn this stuff off globally and send the guys behind it
> back to the drawing board?
>
> In its present shape it's just dysfunctional and not helpful at all.
>
>
I do apologize for this. Thank you for your feedback.


-- 
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Ralf Corsépius]

Am 09.07.22 um 15:36 schrieb Stephen Smoogen:



On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius > wrote:


Hi,

I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was
wrong.



No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called FMN. It 
is very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different 
reasons all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being 
replaced by CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish). Until that 
happens, please be aware that these notifications are likely to come in 
bursts as things go up and down. I would also suggest that turning off 
as many notifications as you can would help the load as one of the 
largest email problems Fedora Infrastructure has is the many people who 
have turned on getting email on a lot of events.


Why don't you turn this stuff off globally and send the guys behind it 
back to the drawing board?


In its present shape it's just dysfunctional and not helpful at all.

Ralf
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Re: Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Stephen Smoogen]

On Sat, 9 Jul 2022 at 09:25, Ralf Corsépius  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was wrong.
>
>

No, I believe the service which is behind these emails is called FMN. It is
very fragile for multiple reasons where it falls over for different reasons
all the time. It is the reason why it is on the top of being replaced by
CPE in this quarter (aka by October-ish). Until that happens, please be
aware that these notifications are likely to come in bursts as things go up
and down. I would also suggest that turning off as many notifications as
you can would help the load as one of the largest email problems Fedora
Infrastructure has is the many people who have turned on getting email on a
lot of events.


>
> I just received this:
>
> 
> Subject: corsepiu pushed 1 commit to rpms/perl-Sub-HandlesVia (rawhide)
> Date: Sat,  9 Jul 2022 10:39:46 + (GMT)
> From: notificati...@fedoraproject.org
> ...
> Notification time stamped 2022-07-01 05:57:40 UTC
> ...
> 
>
>
> Ralf
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-- 
Stephen Smoogen, Red Hat Automotive
Let us be kind to one another, for most of us are fighting a hard battle.
-- Ian MacClaren
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Once again, more than 8 days delayed notifications

[Ralf Corsépius]

Hi,

I thought the notification delay mess was fixed. Apparently, I was wrong.


I just received this:


Subject: corsepiu pushed 1 commit to rpms/perl-Sub-HandlesVia (rawhide)
Date: Sat,  9 Jul 2022 10:39:46 + (GMT)
From: notificati...@fedoraproject.org
...
Notification time stamped 2022-07-01 05:57:40 UTC
...



Ralf
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