A bit late, but still this thread has been slightly getting on my
nerves...
On Thu, 6 Oct 2011 16:44:40 +0100
Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:35:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
I am sure display manager can easily grow a button to say something
along the lines of: change
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 21:44, Simo Sorce a écrit :
Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
Unfortunately, when you get into situations with more than 150% difference in
pixel densities between displays (as we've been
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
size of the font. Save the image and open it in image viewer, and zoom
out so the text is half the size. It doesn't look the same as your
original text.
Rendering
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:13 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
size of the font. Save the image and open it in image viewer, and zoom
out so the text is half the
Em Qui, 2011-10-06 às 08:21 -0400, Simo Sorce escreveu:
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:06 +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 21:44, Simo Sorce a écrit :
Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 01:13:21PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
size of the font. Save the image and open it in image viewer, and zoom
out so the text is half
On 10/05/2011 07:49 PM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
But what about the single monitor case? Let's go back to your Vaio. It's
got a high DPI screen, so let's adjust to that. Now you're happy. Right
up until you plug in an external monitor and now when you run any
applications on the external
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 03:57:38PM +0200, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
But maybe a quick 'I know I have a 13.3 widescreen laptop, you know the
resolution, just make things work' should work for the single-screen
case (esp if we stick to certain target DPIs as Adam suggested). One
shouldn't
On 10/06/2011 09:45 AM, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 03:57:38PM +0200, Michel Alexandre Salim wrote:
But maybe a quick 'I know I have a 13.3 widescreen laptop, you know the
resolution, just make things work' should work for the single-screen
case (esp if we stick to certain
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Like I said, that works fine right up until the point where you plug in
a monitor with a different DPI. What do we do then?
I would wager that the majority of Fedora systems are single monitor
(or, in the case of notebooks, single
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Like I said, that works fine right up until the point where you plug in
a monitor with a different DPI. What do we do then?
I would wager that the majority of Fedora
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 16:33, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org said:
Like I said, that works fine right up until the point where you plug in
a monitor with a different DPI. What do we
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 11:46 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote:
Grovelling around in the F15 xorg-server sources and reviewing the Xorg
log file on my F15 box, I see, with _modern hardware_ at least, that we
do have the monitor geometry
The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
displays, and solving it purely for the simple case makes the
complicated case *worse*. Adding additional complexity for what would
be, at best, a different set
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
How about EDID as it exists today. Since you're able to so beautifully
explain what the pitfalls are, I'd assume you've raised this with the
VESA and asked that they revisit this in the future to accurately
provide DPI information
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 15:37, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 01:13:21PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Mer 5 octobre 2011 23:35, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
This... works badly. Really. Open gimp and add some text. Now double the
size of the font. Save the image and open
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 17:18, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
displays, and solving it purely for the simple case makes the
complicated case *worse*.
How does it make
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:18 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
displays, and solving it purely for the simple case makes the
complicated case *worse*. Adding
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 05:33:48PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 17:18, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
technology that allows us to handle the complicated case of multiple
displays, and solving it purely for
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
How about EDID as it exists today. Since you're able to so beautifully
explain what the pitfalls are, I'd assume you've raised this with the
VESA and asked that they
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:35:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
I am sure display manager can easily grow a button to say something
along the lines of: change font resolution to better fit multiple
monitors. so that when someone that has widely varying DPIs between
monitors plugs a second monitor
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:39:16AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
How about EDID as it exists today. Since you're able to so beautifully
explain what the pitfalls are, I'd
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:44 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:35:08AM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
I am sure display manager can easily grow a button to say something
along the lines of: change font resolution to better fit multiple
monitors. so that when someone that
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:46 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:39:16AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 16:20 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 11:14:56AM -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
How about EDID as it exists today. Since
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
So in that case you really should just give an option to the user to
easily change DPI (no need to call the option 'DPIs', it can be a slider
with no mention of DPI if you prefer) *if* it is needed.
Chances are that a much wider font
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 11:14 -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
EDID does not reliably give you the size of the display.
How about EDID as it exists today. Since you're able to so beautifully
explain what the pitfalls are, I'd assume you've
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36 -0400,
Simo Sorce s...@redhat.com wrote:
My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
the wall, and again even if you knew the distance from the wall you'd
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 12:12 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 11:14 -0400, Jon Masters wrote:
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
EDID does not reliably give you the size of the display.
How about EDID as it exists today. Since you're able to so
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 17:12 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36PM -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
So in that case you really should just give an option to the user to
easily change DPI (no need to call the option 'DPIs', it can be a slider
with no mention of DPI if you
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 12:00 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
So in that case you really should just give an option to the user to
easily change DPI (no need to call the option 'DPIs', it can be a slider
with no mention of DPI if you prefer) *if* it is needed.
There actually is one, only it's called
On 2011/10/06 15:33 (GMT+0100) Matthew Garrett composed:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:30:50AM -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
I would wager that the majority of Fedora systems are single monitor
(or, in the case of notebooks, single monitor much of the time); can't
we at least try to correct for
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 11:41 -0500, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36 -0400,
Simo Sorce s...@redhat.com wrote:
My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
the
Simo Sorce (s...@redhat.com) said:
My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
the wall, and again even if you knew the distance from the wall you'd
know nothing because the optimal DPI will
On Thu, Oct 6, 2011 at 10:01 AM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
Quite possible to do with existing off the shelf ultrasonic or diode
laser telemetry being used for DYI robotic range finding. In fact you
can get ones that use i2c for data
Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com said:
Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
Projectors with auto-focus already detect the distance to the screen (I
think they use IR). I don't expect that they change the EDID screen
size reporting though.
--
Chris Adams
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:36 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com said:
Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
Projectors with auto-focus already detect the distance to the screen (I
think they use IR). I don't expect that they change the
Le jeudi 06 octobre 2011 à 16:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 05:33:48PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le Jeu 6 octobre 2011 17:18, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
The heuristic isn't the problem. The problem is that we have no
technology that allows us to handle
On 2011/10/06 13:59 (GMT-0400) Simo Sorce composed:
the crowd is even farther from the wall than the projector is :)
Church sanctuary projectors are typically near the back, which means huge
numbers of, if not most people, are closer to the viewing surface than the
projector is.
--
The wise
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 09:22:22PM +0200, Nicolas Mailhot wrote:
Le jeudi 06 octobre 2011 à 16:41 +0100, Matthew Garrett a écrit :
What heuristic?
The one you were writing about
The heuristic I was writing about is the Trust the DPI we get from EDID
if it's within some size range. We don't
On 2011/10/06 21:22 (GMT+0200) Nicolas Mailhot composed:
C. for font sizes
1. display them in points (pt) or pixels (px),
no
2. display the unit you're using. Don't make the user guess what the
perverted font dialog author had in mind
no
3. let the user specify them in points or
Le jeudi 06 octobre 2011 à 15:39 -0400, Felix Miata a écrit :
Instead, display fonts of different sizes and have user pick one. No need for
user to know or care about units or numbers or DPI,
That does not work because those units are used in different electronic
formats, for example office
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:26PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Thu, 2011-10-06 at 13:36 -0500, Chris Adams wrote:
Once upon a time, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com said:
Obviously you embed radar in every projector.
Projectors with auto-focus already detect the distance to the
On 10/6/2011 12:41 PM, Bruno Wolff III wrote:
On Thu, Oct 06, 2011 at 12:00:36 -0400,
Simo Sorces...@redhat.com wrote:
My main use case here is video projectors, and in that case there is no
way on earth you'll ever know the DPI as it depends on the distance from
the wall, and again even
On Tuesday, October 04, 2011 10:08:33 PM Adam Williamson wrote:
Windows used to have a gui that would show a ruler on your monitor and
say hold a real ruler up to this and slide the slider until its the
same size. Given what's been said about how windows handles DPI I can
only wonder what
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 19:05 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
96dpi, however, is almost *never* correct, is it? So just taking a
hardcoded number that Microsoft happened to pick a decade ago is hardly
improving matters.
The X default used to be 72dpi. Maybe it'll be something else in the
future,
Adam Williamson wrote on Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 07:08:33PM -0700:
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 16:24 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:17:08PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
For fedora users, as others have mentioned, perhaps a UI that lets
users test a couple of possible dpi
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 10:49 -0500, Matyas Selmeci wrote:
Windows used to have a gui that would show a ruler on your monitor and
say hold a real ruler up to this and slide the slider until its the
same size. Given what's been said about how windows handles DPI I can
only wonder what it
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 09:26:59AM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
You just did, sorry. ;) Hardware sucks. We know this. Fedora generally
takes the position that it's correct to engineer things properly and
regretfully explain that the hardware sucks when this causes problems,
not engineer
On 10/05/2011 12:26 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
You just did, sorry. ;) Hardware sucks. We know this. Fedora generally
takes the position that it's correct to engineer things properly and
regretfully explain that the hardware sucks when this causes problems,
not engineer hacks and bodges to
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 13:50 -0400, Peter Jones wrote:
On 10/05/2011 12:26 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
You just did, sorry. ;) Hardware sucks. We know this. Fedora generally
takes the position that it's correct to engineer things properly and
regretfully explain that the hardware sucks when
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which DPI? If you're
dual head, you've got two. Unless they match you're screwed - there's no
magic way to get applications to reflow text just because you've moved
the window
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which DPI? If you're
dual head, you've got two. Unless they match you're screwed - there's no
magic way to get
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which DPI? If you're
dual head, you've got two. Unless they
On 10/05/11 12:31, Adam Williamson wrote:
Like I replied to ajax, I suspect when the problem of assuming
everything's 96dpi becomes simply too acute, instead of fixing
everything really properly so that all displays correct report their
size and all desktops actually do resolution independence
Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com writes:
[...]
But that's still going to require some kind of sensible handling of the
case where one monitor is roughly 100dpi and the other is roughly
200dpi, unless we simply say 'you can't do that, all your displays have
to be in the same DPI Category'.
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:49 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
So, ok, now you have some belief about the DPI. But which
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:56 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
Are you saying fonts should change on the fly when I move an app between
2 monitors that have different DPIs ?
If they're sufficiently different in DPI, sure. Or would you really want
everything to suddenly become twice as small if
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 12:31:50PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
Like I replied to ajax, I suspect when the problem of assuming
everything's 96dpi becomes simply too acute, instead of fixing
everything really properly so that all displays correct report their
size and all desktops actually do
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 21:31 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 12:31:50PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
Like I replied to ajax, I suspect when the problem of assuming
everything's 96dpi becomes simply too acute, instead of fixing
everything really properly so that all
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 01:34:43PM -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
I'm just saying it would probably pay off to put some thought *now* into
how to manage things when higher resolution displays become so prevalent
that they can't be ignored, rather than desperately scrambling to catch
up when
Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org writes:
We have no technological solution for dealing with the fact that
applications may move from one DPI to another at runtime, and may even
be displaying on both displays at once.
From a technology viewpoint, that is actually theoretically easy to
On Wed, Oct 05, 2011 at 11:11:38PM +0200, Benny Amorsen wrote:
Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org writes:
We have no technological solution for dealing with the fact that
applications may move from one DPI to another at runtime, and may even
be displaying on both displays at once.
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 23:11 +0200, Benny Amorsen wrote:
Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org writes:
We have no technological solution for dealing with the fact that
applications may move from one DPI to another at runtime, and may even
be displaying on both displays at once.
From a
Dne 5.10.2011 21:56, Simo Sorce napsal(a):
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:49 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 15:44 -0400, Simo Sorce wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 12:31 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
On Wed, 2011-10-05 at 18:49 +0100, Matthew Garrett wrote:
So, ok, now you have
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 11:46 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote:
Grovelling around in the F15 xorg-server sources and reviewing the Xorg
log file on my F15 box, I see, with _modern hardware_ at least, that we
do have the monitor geometry available from DDC or EDIC, and obviously
it is trivial
Thanks for writing this up! It was good info.
On Oct 4, 2011 7:55 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 11:46 -0400, Kaleb S. KEITHLEY wrote:
Grovelling around in the F15 xorg-server sources and reviewing the Xorg
log file on my F15 box, I see, with _modern hardware_
On 10/04/2011 01:24 PM, Adam Jackson wrote:
I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever.
Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer
with a URL from here out. (As always, use of the second person you
herein is plural, not singular.)
Ordinary users don't care about DPI any more than they do about what number
point or pixel size their favorite font size is.
Why can't something akin to
http://people.gnome.org/~federico/news-2007-01.html be employed so that no
one gets initialized or stuck with unsuitable sizes?
Snap the
Hi,
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote:
I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever.
Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer
with a URL from here out. (As always, use of the second person you
herein is plural,
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 4:03 PM, Camilo Mesias cam...@mesias.co.uk wrote:
Thanks for the explanation... There is an alternative to endless
explanation - roll out your best effort at a heuristic and let the
crowd contribute to an ever growing set of exceptions.
Well, actually, people complain a
On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:17:08PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
For fedora users, as others have mentioned, perhaps a UI that lets
users test a couple of possible dpi values might be useful (for those
users so inclined). It does have to cross a good chunk of the stack to
work well, and seems
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 21:03 +0100, Camilo Mesias wrote:
Hi,
On Tue, Oct 4, 2011 at 6:54 PM, Adam Jackson a...@redhat.com wrote:
I am clearly going to have to explain this one more time, forever.
Let's see if I can't write it authoritatively once and simply answer
with a URL from here
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 13:54 -0400, Adam Jackson wrote:
I'm going to limit myself to observing that greatly is a matter of
opinion, and that in order to be really useful you'd need some way of
communicating I punted to the desktop.
Beyond that, sure, pick a heuristic, accept that it's going
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 19:05 -0700, Adam Williamson wrote:
Is it
really a great idea, for instance, if we put Fedora 17 on a 1024x600, 7
tablet and it comes up with zonking huge fonts all over the place?
Er - s/zonking huge/ridiculously tiny/, of course.
--
Adam Williamson
Fedora QA Community
On Tue, 2011-10-04 at 16:24 -0400, Casey Dahlin wrote:
On Tue, Oct 04, 2011 at 04:17:08PM -0400, Martin Langhoff wrote:
For fedora users, as others have mentioned, perhaps a UI that lets
users test a couple of possible dpi values might be useful (for those
users so inclined). It does have
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