On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 06:29:33PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 17:07 -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
An interesting note here is that target audience is of no use in deciding
this. KDE and GNOME aim for the same target audiences but have different
ideas of how to reach
On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 07:12:24PM +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Mike McGrath wrote:
Spins didn't help, reinstalling did.
No. His problem was with switching desktop environment. It was solved by
reinstalling with the spin for the target environment, getting the exact
package selection
Kevin Kofler wrote on 03.02.2010 19:08:
Josh Boyer wrote:
It is. It's one step removed. There were people actively wanting to make
Zope/Plone work via a compat-python stack. It went all the way to FESCo
and got voted down. The zope/plone users were the target audience there.
There were
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 20:51 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Mike McGrath wrote:
I really don't know what our users are a measure of. I don't think it's
On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:41 AM, David Malcolm dmalc...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 20:51 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
Sadly they don't have categories like the best linux distribution for
developers there.
Is that what we're doing? If so would
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 09:38:38PM -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 07:52:55PM -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 05:16:14PM -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:11:47PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
The way things are now works because of
Mike McGrath said the following on 02/02/2010 09:01 AM Pacific Time:
This particular question has already been answered, I've not yet put it on
the wiki yet. The notes from our last meeting yesterday hasn't gone to
the list, I'll update the wiki today though.
The notes from our last meeting
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
Would that mean that users who don't start with one of these 'products'
get to magically try and choose which implementation of which they want?
Perhaps even mix and match, leaving QA and the developers to sort out
the results.
Nope.
Users
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:36 AM, John Poelstra poels...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
These are *working drafts and in process documents* all the in spirit of
transparency. It would be more helpful to these discussions to get
clarification on advisory-board first rather than conclude that the
board
On 02/02/2010 09:07 PM, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
* A user who downloads any one of these products gets a different experience
than someone who downloads one of the others.
* Switching from one product to another is not an easy task of merely
installing one package group and removing
Adam Miller said the following on 02/03/2010 08:02 AM Pacific Time:
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 9:36 AM, John Poelstrapoels...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
These are *working drafts and in process documents* all the in spirit of
transparency. It would be more helpful to these discussions to get
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:26 AM, John Poelstra poels...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
Thanks for your clarification. I think it is great to ask questions, I
ask a lot of them myself. I question how productive it is to all of us
though, to ask questions if the starting point of those questions is
Mike McGrath wrote:
Spins didn't help, reinstalling did.
No. His problem was with switching desktop environment. It was solved by
reinstalling with the spin for the target environment, getting the exact
package selection optimized for that target environment.
(That said, adding KDE to a
Josh Boyer wrote:
On Wed, Feb 03, 2010 at 12:44:08AM -0800, Ryan Rix wrote:
On Tue 2 February 2010 9:10:13 pm Jesse Keating wrote:
What functionality has been lost here?
Working KDM, for one... Installing from the live DVD (as Kevin Kofler
mentioned earlier) is essentially broken if you want
Josh Boyer wrote:
The Board is responsible for Fedora overall. They are concerned with
Fedora uptake and ways of increasing contribution. Based on that, they
are trying to come up with personas that seem a likely candidate to use
and eventually contribute to Fedora. Based on that, they are
Przemek Klosowski wrote:
Spins make sense when there is a deep-reaching feature that touches a
majority of packages on the system. Examples include:
- the desktop environment with all the supporting runtime libs
… and applications!
Our spins also select core applications (file manager, text
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at said:
Yes, but having a spin with them already on it is much simpler for its
target audience. (That said, I wouldn't use it since they moved away from
KDE to GNOME. :-/ If I needed FEL, I'd rather either groupinstall their
comps group on
John Poelstra wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that we've posted all meeting
recaps to advisory-board list and there has been ZERO discussion or
inquiries there. We specifically asked for feedback to the original
list of unanswered questions on advisory-board. Is there a
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 10:26 AM, John Poelstra poels...@redhat.com wrote:
Adam Miller said the following on 02/03/2010 08:02 AM Pacific Time:
I'm not on some crusade to undermine the Board if that's what you
think, I'm honestly looking for clarification but not only from those
involved in the
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 12:35 PM, Chris Adams cmad...@hiwaay.net wrote:
Once upon a time, Kevin Kofler kevin.kof...@chello.at said:
Yes, but having a spin with them already on it is much simpler for its
target audience. (That said, I wouldn't use it since they moved away from
KDE to GNOME. :-/
Would it be possible to put spin kickstarts on the common install DVD,
with an option in anaconda to choose them (and notes that network access
may be required for some packages)? This would give an easier way to
install alternate spins, without having to download and burn lots of
CDs, boot,
Chris Lumens (clum...@redhat.com) said:
Would it be possible to put spin kickstarts on the common install DVD,
with an option in anaconda to choose them (and notes that network access
may be required for some packages)? This would give an easier way to
install alternate spins, without
Kevin Kofler (kevin.kof...@chello.at) said:
John Poelstra wrote:
I guess what I'm trying to get at here is that we've posted all meeting
recaps to advisory-board list and there has been ZERO discussion or
inquiries there. We specifically asked for feedback to the original
list of
On 02/03/2010 11:46 AM, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 11:23 -0500, Przemek Klosowski wrote:
I don't understand why 'Electronic Design Lab' is a separate spin: if I
install all the EDA-related packages that it contains, would I not get
an equivalent capability?
The only reason I
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 12:54 -0600, inode0 wrote:
I believe that what fundamentally makes the Fedora Project a great
place to be is that it is an open community where the participants
share a group of core values that guide them both individually and
collectively toward an unwritten end that
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 19:08 +0100, Kevin Kofler wrote:
Josh Boyer wrote:
It is. It's one step removed. There were people actively wanting to make
Zope/Plone work via a compat-python stack. It went all the way to FESCo
and got voted down. The zope/plone users were the target audience
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 12:54 -0600, inode0 wrote:
I believe that what fundamentally makes the Fedora Project a great
place to be is that it is an open community where the participants
share a group of core values that
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 16:25 -0600, inode0 wrote:
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 3:26 PM, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 12:54 -0600, inode0 wrote:
I believe that what fundamentally makes the Fedora Project a great
place to be is that it is an open community where
On Wed, 2010-02-03 at 17:05 -0600, inode0 wrote:
Guilty as charged. The Board, Steering Committees, various guidelines
exist and have been used to resolve conflicts for years, right?
This is about more than conflict resolution, isn't it? This is about
giving direction to the efforts of those
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Mike McGrath wrote:
I really don't know what our users are a measure of. I don't think it's
marketing as inode0 suggests, because the people using Fedora already know
about it. But if we step back and take our users seriously. We'll find
that since Fedora Core 6
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Mike McGrath wrote:
I really don't know what our users are a measure of. I don't think it's
marketing as inode0 suggests, because the people using Fedora already know
about it. But if we step back
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:28 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, Mike McGrath wrote:
I really don't know what our users are a measure of. I don't think it's
marketing as inode0 suggests, because the people using Fedora already
On Wed, Feb 3, 2010 at 8:51 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
On Wed, 3 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
Sadly they don't have categories like the best linux distribution for
developers there.
Is that what we're doing? If so would we win it?
One thing I know that I am not doing is
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 10:28:37AM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
Hello all,
I wanted to bring a few things up and I wanted to bring them up on
de...@lists.fp.o because this is where most people spend their time.
First off: Does letting thousands of contributors do what they
want have a
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Adam Miller wrote:
Hello all,
I wanted to bring a few things up and I wanted to bring them up on
de...@lists.fp.o because this is where most people spend their time.
First off: Does letting thousands of contributors do what they
want have a negative impact on our
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On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Mike McGrath wrote:
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On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
And to answer your question about what isnt' broken. I suggest you look
at our http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics page. We've only seen
growth in 2 of our last 6 releases. Think about that.
While I don't see that
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
And to answer your question about what isnt' broken. I suggest you look
at our http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics page. We've only seen
growth in 2 of our last 6 releases.
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:54 AM, inode0 ino...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
And to answer your question about what isnt' broken. I suggest you look
at our http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Statistics page. We've only seen
growth in 2 of
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:01 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, inode0 wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
And to answer your question about what isnt' broken. I suggest you
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:28 AM, Robyn Bergeron
robyn.berge...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 9:54 AM, inode0 ino...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 10:45 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
And to answer your question about what isnt' broken. I suggest you look
at
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 11:45 AM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
Unless you were misquoted the question you asked was:
Isn't it amazing how thousands of contributors doing whatever they want
created such a spectacular OS? [1]
That was a rhetorical answer to the question, Does
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
I think that the Fedora Project's target audience needs to be people who
want to work on open source operating systems. If you want to market the
Fedora Project, that's the audience that needs to be addressed.
If you want to market a physical
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 12:05 PM, Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
snip
I think that the Fedora Project's target audience needs to be people who
want to work on open source operating systems. If you want to market the
Fedora Project, that's the audience that needs to be addressed.
If
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:05:22PM -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I think that the Fedora Project's target audience needs to be people who
want to work on open source operating systems. If you want to market the
Fedora Project, that's the audience that needs to be addressed.
I don't think
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:05:22PM -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
I think that the Fedora Project's target audience needs to be people who
want to work on open source operating systems. If you want to market the
Fedora
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
snip
Ubuntu is better than Debian
snip
If you honestly believe that, I have pitty on you.
-AdamM
--
http://maxamillion.googlepages.com
-
() ascii ribbon campaign
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
Snip
Would that mean that users who don't start with one of these 'products'
get to magically try and choose which implementation of which they want?
Perhaps even mix and match, leaving QA and the developers to sort out
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:17 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
Snip
Would that mean that users who don't start with one of these 'products'
get to magically try and choose which implementation of which they want?
Perhaps even mix and
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:19:35PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
snip
Ubuntu is better than Debian
snip
If you honestly believe that, I have pitty on you.
For the market they're aiming at? I don't think there's any
Adam Miller (maxamill...@fedoraproject.org) said:
Furthermore, you then leave 'downstream' higher-level packages and
applications having to, for example, code to PolicyKit0, PolicyKit1, or
consolehelper, depending on what each 'product' use case might use. Or,
having to build their python
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:22:37PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
I think the responsibility of these things should be placed upon the
SIG members who perform the functions from within these different
groups. Why not have a
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Mike McGrath mmcgr...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
QA is a particular skill set, not every sig has a QA member and requiring
it wouldn't work either. I feel it's like assuming that just because I've
done turbogears apps that someone would ask me to do CSS as well. I
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
Take a random downstream app. (Firefox is an example, but there are many
others.) Right now, it only needs to track a single version of python,
or a single auth framework, even if it may be used on any desktop or any
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:32:19PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
If a spin wants to use a modified kernel package, what's the procedure
for ensuring that it receives the same level of QA as the normal kernel?
snip
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 14:36 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
Take a random downstream app. (Firefox is an example, but there are many
others.) Right now, it only needs to track a single version of python,
or a single
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 14:16 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 1:43 PM, Jesse Keating jkeat...@redhat.com wrote:
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 13:15 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
Your example doesn't work, Xubuntu is still bound to the package set
in the Ubuntu repositories in the same
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 20:30 +, Matthew Garrett wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 02:19:35PM -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:01 PM, Matthew Garrett mj...@srcf.ucam.org wrote:
snip
Ubuntu is better than Debian
snip
If you honestly believe that, I have pitty on you.
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 03:17:30PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote:
Toshio Kuratomi (a.bad...@gmail.com) said:
My other mail suggests that one way to work with this is to create new
conflicting packages that are optimized for the different usages. There's
other ways as well but the general
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 11:43:32AM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 13:15 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
Your example doesn't work, Xubuntu is still bound to the package set
in the Ubuntu repositories in the same sense that the Xfce Spin is
bound to the package set in the
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:11:47PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 14:36 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
Take a random downstream app. (Firefox is an example, but there are many
others.) Right
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
Not to reduce the debate to too much of a soundbite, but it almost
seems like attempting to decide whether we want Fedora to be Debian,
or to be something useful for users of it. I'd always pick the latter...
The problem with this sound bite is
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 17:16:14 -0500,
Toshio Kuratomi a.bad...@gmail.com wrote:
Who's been told to fork Fedora because of the status-quo-target-audience?
The guy who was complaining about nonfree firmware. He actually made a forked
distribution for at least a while.
--
devel mailing list
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 16:35:42 -0600,
Adam Miller maxamill...@fedoraproject.org wrote:
+1 for the last ... 3? .. 4? ... how every many posts from Toshio,
each well stated and I agree on the points stated.
I think he is putting up strawmen. Just because there is a target audience
doesn't
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 04:42:28PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
This is an excellent example. Ford has several audiences and several
products. Now, imagine a world where Ford is forced to only produce one
product. That's the world we're in right now. Lots of different people,
lots of
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 04:42:28PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
This is an excellent example. Ford has several audiences and several
products. Now, imagine a world where Ford is forced to only produce one
product. That's the world we're in
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 05:16:14PM -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 01:11:47PM -0800, Jesse Keating wrote:
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 14:36 -0600, Adam Miller wrote:
On Tue, Feb 2, 2010 at 2:29 PM, Bill Nottingham nott...@redhat.com wrote:
snip
Take a random downstream app.
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 17:07 -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
An interesting note here is that target audience is of no use in deciding
this. KDE and GNOME aim for the same target audiences but have different
ideas of how to reach them. The details that moving forward or staying back
with these
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 07:56:53PM -0500, Josh Boyer wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 05:33:02PM -0500, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
On Tue, Feb 02, 2010 at 04:16:30PM -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
On Tue, 2 Feb 2010, Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
Not to reduce the debate to too much of a soundbite, but
Mike McGrath wrote:
Then no one is actually using our products. People don't use spins after
they install them. After install they're all pointed at the same thing.
I'm a KDE user but I'm not using a KDE spin right now.
Then you're missing out on some of the integration work we do. That
Bruno Wolff III wrote:
(I probably should have also dropped the 3d games, but by the time I
figured that out we had working 3d support with free drivers on some
cards.)
We do. The ATI Radeon 9200 SE on my desktop and the Intel GM965 on my
notebook both work just fine for 3D with the Free
Toshio Kuratomi wrote:
This may be true on its own but we need to be careful of setting it up as
a dichotomy because it becomes false when put in that context. I want my
computer to stay out of my way and let me do things. Yet I use KDE
because KDE stays out of my way much better than Gnome.
On Tue, 2010-02-02 at 23:03 -0600, Mike McGrath wrote:
There was a time where,
when you wanted KDE, you clicked the checkbox next to KDE at install time.
With our default and spin media we've actually _LOST_ functionality that
AFAIK is still not back after years of work.
pardon? Our DVD
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