Am 27.01.2014 02:11, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> i only just warned about cases where a rollback would do harm and to *make
>> sure* that really no one would
>> do it without take care
>
> That was my *entire* point going back around 36 hours ago
and that is why i do not understand your turn around
On Jan 26, 2014, at 5:37 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 27.01.2014 01:32, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>> Am 27.01.2014 01:18, schrieb Chris Murphy:
You gave several examples of rollback-snapshot methods - same thing as you
suggeste
Am 27.01.2014 01:32, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 27.01.2014 01:18, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>>> You gave several examples of rollback-snapshot methods - same thing as you
>>> suggested them. I never said you requested them
>>
>> oh my god - i gav
On Jan 26, 2014, at 5:20 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 27.01.2014 01:18, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:55 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>> Am 27.01.2014 00:51, schrieb Chris Murphy:
On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> do yourself and everybody
On Jan 26, 2014, at 5:10 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 27.01.2014 01:07, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>
>> And then you propose a ridonkulous snapshot-rollback strategy that would for
>> certain cause major problems
>> if the rollback were actually done
>
> *the opposite is true because i WAR
Am 27.01.2014 01:18, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:55 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 27.01.2014 00:51, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>>
do yourself and everybody a favour and
* don't claim others are rude while you ta
On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:55 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 27.01.2014 00:51, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>
>>> do yourself and everybody a favour and
>>>
>>> * don't claim others are rude while you talk like above and worser half of
>>> the t
Am 27.01.2014 00:57, schrieb Kevin Fenzi:
> I don't think this subthread is being particularly useful...
>
> And the personal attacks are undesirable.
> Please stop or at least take it to private email
*sorry* for not early enough realize trolling in first start with
the same argumentation as
Am 27.01.2014 01:07, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> And then you propose a ridonkulous snapshot-rollback strategy that would for
> certain cause major problems
> if the rollback were actually done
*the opposite is true because i WARNED of doing snapshots*
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On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:47 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> Am 27.01.2014 00:41, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> Great, well I'll tell you what. I will just keep living dangerously, and
>> when I find a real world case of this, I'll file a bug. How about that?
>
> do that, your problem
>
>>> because nobo
I don't think this subthread is being particularly useful...
And the personal attacks are undesirable.
Please stop or at least take it to private email.
Thanks,
kevin
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Am 27.01.2014 00:51, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>> do yourself and everybody a favour and
>>
>> * don't claim others are rude while you talk like above and worser half of
>> the thread
>> * don't talk about things above your technical scope
>> *
On Jan 26, 2014, at 4:29 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> do yourself and everybody a favour and
>
> * don't claim others are rude while you talk like above and worser half of
> the thread
> * don't talk about things above your technical scope
> * discuss with software engineers while lacking basic
Am 27.01.2014 00:41, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> Great, well I'll tell you what. I will just keep living dangerously, and when
> I find a real world case of this, I'll file a bug. How about that?
do that, your problem
>> because nobody *can* know what exactly packages, versions are installed
>> in
On Jan 26, 2014, at 1:40 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 26.01.2014 21:30, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>> Am 26.01.2014 20:45, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> So ?
> It is only visible if you downgrade which a lot of software do not
> sup
Am 27.01.2014 00:26, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 26.01.2014 21:13, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>>>
I never said it won't work in absolute, it probably will work ok in many
cases, just to
On Jan 26, 2014, at 1:18 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
>
> Am 26.01.2014 21:13, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>>
>>> I never said it won't work in absolute, it probably will work ok in many
>>> cases, just to cause incredible issues in others.
>>>
>>>
Am 26.01.2014 21:56, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> No you just have reading comprehension problem. The minor versions are
> compatible. The major versions aren't
one last question: what are firefox updates 25->26->27
minor, major, dunno?
more and more software has no minor/major splitting at all
sys
Am 26.01.2014 21:56, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 1:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>>> Well, the mail servers regularly get updated by the company I pay for such
>>> things, and I've
>>> never noticed the change. It uses IMAP so I don't think the server even
>>> cares, its just a
On Jan 26, 2014, at 1:07 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
> Am 26.01.2014 20:56, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>>> What about mail application change the format of the mail folders ?
>>
>> Good question because I experienced this recently. So the way Apple does
>> this on OS X with Mail,
>> there is no such
On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 12:45 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
> I still really have no idea what sorts of changes you're talking
> about.
I think you made it abundantly clear :-)
I am also sure what I wanted to convey to people that understand what I
am talking about is also clear. So I think the matter
Am 26.01.2014 21:30, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>> Am 26.01.2014 20:45, schrieb Chris Murphy:
So ?
It is only visible if you downgrade which a lot of software do not
support and explicitly so
>>>
>>> The right way to do file format c
On Jan 26, 2014, at 12:51 PM, Reindl Harald wrote:
>
> Am 26.01.2014 20:45, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>>> So ?
>>> It is only visible if you downgrade which a lot of software do not
>>> support and explicitly so
>>
>> The right way to do file format changes is you design the new format.
>> And in
On Sun, 2014-01-26 at 13:13 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> > I never said it won't work in absolute, it probably will work ok in many
> > cases, just to cause incredible issues in others.
> >
> > It is a fine tool in the hands of an expert that k
Am 26.01.2014 21:13, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
>> I never said it won't work in absolute, it probably will work ok in many
>> cases, just to cause incredible issues in others.
>>
>> It is a fine tool in the hands of an expert that knows how to che
On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:41 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> I never said it won't work in absolute, it probably will work ok in many
> cases, just to cause incredible issues in others.
>
> It is a fine tool in the hands of an expert that knows how to check
> whether reverting to a snapshot is safe.
Why
Am 26.01.2014 20:56, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> What about mail application change the format of the mail folders ?
>
> Good question because I experienced this recently. So the way Apple does this
> on OS X with Mail,
> there is no such thing as a mail format change during the life of a major OS
Am 26.01.2014 20:51, schrieb Reindl Harald:
> Am 26.01.2014 20:45, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>>> So ?
>>> It is only visible if you downgrade which a lot of software do not
>>> support and explicitly so
>>
>> The right way to do file format changes is you design the new format.
>> And in a minor vers
On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:38 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:54 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>>
>>> * Do an offline update that includes Foo v2.0
>>> * Boot the updated system, run Foo, it migrates its configuration to
>>> som
Am 26.01.2014 20:45, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> So ?
>> It is only visible if you downgrade which a lot of software do not
>> support and explicitly so
>
> The right way to do file format changes is you design the new format.
> And in a minor version update, the application gains the ability to
>
On Jan 26, 2014, at 11:35 AM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:28 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
>> On Jan 25, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>>
>>> The reason is simple: lot's of software *changes* data as part of its
>>> normal functioning, including and often in rollback-incom
On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 15:04 -0500, Colin Walters wrote:
> Hi Simo,
>
> On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 14:55 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> > The reason is simple: lot's of software *changes* data as part of its
> > normal functioning, including and often in rollback-incompatible ways.
>
> I wrote and maint
On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:54 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
> >
> > * Do an offline update that includes Foo v2.0
> > * Boot the updated system, run Foo, it migrates its configuration to
> > some new scheme
> > * Realize there was something wrong w
On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:28 -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
> On Jan 25, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Simo Sorce wrote:
>
> > The reason is simple: lot's of software *changes* data as part of its
> > normal functioning, including and often in rollback-incompatible ways.
> >
> > You cannot assume that upgrading
Chris Murphy wrote:
> I wouldn't ever expect this with a minor version or security update. I'd
> consider it a complete betrayal of software versioning to do this. In fact
> in certain instances of major version changes, downward compatibility of
> the file format is expected.
The compatibility is
Am 26.01.2014 01:54, schrieb Chris Murphy:
> On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>>
>> * Do an offline update that includes Foo v2.0
>> * Boot the updated system, run Foo, it migrates its configuration to
>> some new scheme
>> * Realize there was something wrong with the update,
On Jan 25, 2014, at 4:12 PM, Adam Williamson wrote:
>
> * Do an offline update that includes Foo v2.0
> * Boot the updated system, run Foo, it migrates its configuration to
> some new scheme
> * Realize there was something wrong with the update, roll it back
> * Run Foo again, find it doesn't wo
Am 26.01.2014 01:28, schrieb Chris Murphy:
>> It is basically impossible to find applications that handle the case
>> where you downgrade, in any more graceful way than punting and failing
>> to start in the *good* case. In the bad case they start and trash the
>> database.
>
> But important user d
On Jan 25, 2014, at 12:55 PM, Simo Sorce wrote:
> The reason is simple: lot's of software *changes* data as part of its
> normal functioning, including and often in rollback-incompatible ways.
>
> You cannot assume that upgrading a program that uses a database X from
> version A to B can still
On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 23:26 +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 02:55:32PM -0500, Simo Sorce wrote:
> > On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:46 +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> > > >
> > > > If there is a directory that contains update and non-update related file
> > > > changes, that's a problem
Am 25.01.2014 23:26, schrieb Tomasz Torcz:
> On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 02:55:32PM -0500, Simo Sorce wrote:
>> The ONLY way to do that is if you do not care at all about user's data
>> and simply accept that a rollback will also remove user data.
>>
>> The reason is simple: lot's of software *change
On Sat, Jan 25, 2014 at 02:55:32PM -0500, Simo Sorce wrote:
> On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:46 +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> > >
> > > If there is a directory that contains update and non-update related file
> > > changes, that's a problem. If there's segmentation, then this can be
> > > done.
> >
>
Hi Simo,
On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 14:55 -0500, Simo Sorce wrote:
> The reason is simple: lot's of software *changes* data as part of its
> normal functioning, including and often in rollback-incompatible ways.
I wrote and maintain a system that has been doing continuous deployment
of GNOME. It's b
On Sat, 2014-01-25 at 17:46 +0100, Tomasz Torcz wrote:
> On Fri, Jan 24, 2014 at 03:10:04PM -0700, Chris Murphy wrote:
> >
> > On Jan 24, 2014, at 11:19 AM, Kevin Fenzi wrote:
> >
> > > On Fri, 24 Jan 2014 09:41:13 -0800
> > > Adam Williamson wrote:
> > >
> > >> AIUI there is/was a long-term p
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