Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On 03/06/2014 06:00 PM, Matthew Miller wrote: On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 03:50:37PM +0100, drago01 wrote: For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. Additionally, there is a fundamental difference here. The problem isn't that someone might be offended -- people might be (and are) offended by anything. The problem is that the logo refers to a marginalized race of people using stereotyped imagery. While many people do not eat beef and hold cows sacred, the beefy miracle logo does not make any reference to those people. If it did, it too would have been a problem. It seems this tabooization of stereotypes[0] is a North American concept (though, as I was surprised to learn, apparently there are entire fields of study around this area, which I admit I'm not familiar with). I don't get how referring to a marginalized people using stereotyped imagery should be considered offensive in Fedora while sacrilege should not. I really don't see any fundamental difference. (Though -- or maybe because -- neither are offensive to me personally.) Please, consider that there are cultures other than your own. What seems inherently right for you may seem confusing or even absurd to others, and on the other hand what seems trivial to you might be a huge issue for others. -- Petr³ [0] Pardon me if this simplification is offensive. The whole concept is foreign to me. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
Hi, I don't think that worrying about perpetuating offensive stereotypes is specifc to the US, we have similar controversies in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banania#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Controversies Anyway, the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable in Fedora should be that no one should be offended by something that directly refers to him or his origins in a negative or hurtful way. I have no opinion about the Cherokee logo, as an European citizen, it looks to me very innocent (a little child playing) but if it offends native americans, it should be fixed anyway. my 2 cts, H. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On 03/06/2014 09:11 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 03:02 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. This statement is blatantly false. And I consider this to be blatantly naive. You will always find somebody who complains about something and you will always find situations, which were things are far from being clear. Just consider the F20 swastika background and a Fedora release once having been called Werewulf. As a German, both incidents caused me to raise an eye-brow, but weren't worth it to make a fuzz about. That said, it would seem common sense to me for FESCO to have contacted some official representative of the American Indian People or the Cherokee Nation/People and ask for their opinion. Did this happen? What did these representatives say? Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: On 03/06/2014 09:11 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 03:02 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. This statement is blatantly false. And I consider this to be blatantly naive. You will always find somebody who complains about something and you will always find situations, which were things are far from being clear. Just consider the F20 swastika background and a Fedora release once having been called Werewulf. As a German, both incidents caused me to raise an eye-brow, but weren't worth it to make a fuzz about. That said, it would seem common sense to me for FESCO to have contacted some official representative of the American Indian People or the Cherokee Nation/People and ask for their opinion. Did this happen? What did these representatives say? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=681339#c31 -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On 03/07/2014 10:59 AM, H. Guémar wrote: Hi, I don't think that worrying about perpetuating offensive stereotypes is specifc to the US, we have similar controversies in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banania#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Controversies Well, read the second article. 92% of the Dutch public don't perceive Zwarte Piet as racist. I'm not saying it is or is not, or that it should or should not be fixed; I'm saying that there is a culture where this is not perceived as a big deal, as opposed to USA where political correctness is a big deal. Anyway, the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable in Fedora should be that no one should be offended by something that directly refers to him or his origins in a negative or hurtful way. My point is that the list him/her and his/her origins seems rather arbitrary. Why is e.g. his/her religion not on the list? I'm not saying where the line should be drawn, that is obviously something a single person (or a single culture) shouldn't decide. (By the way, excluding females by saying he when you mean anybody is seriously offensive to some. Again, from what I can tell, this is a big issue in the American culture.) I have no opinion about the Cherokee logo, as an European citizen, it looks to me very innocent (a little child playing) but if it offends native americans, it should be fixed anyway. I also don't see how anyone could be offended by it, but I understand that there is a culture that I don't understand :) -- Petr³ -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On 03/07/2014 11:53 AM, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:45 AM, Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de wrote: On 03/06/2014 09:11 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 03:02 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. This statement is blatantly false. And I consider this to be blatantly naive. You will always find somebody who complains about something and you will always find situations, which were things are far from being clear. Just consider the F20 swastika background and a Fedora release once having been called Werewulf. As a German, both incidents caused me to raise an eye-brow, but weren't worth it to make a fuzz about. That said, it would seem common sense to me for FESCO to have contacted some official representative of the American Indian People or the Cherokee Nation/People and ask for their opinion. Did this happen? What did these representatives say? https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=681339#c31 OK, that's better than nothing, but this still is just one individual's position and is far from being an official position. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
2014-03-07 12:16 GMT+01:00 Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de: On 03/07/2014 11:53 AM, drago01 wrote: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=681339#c31 OK, that's better than nothing, but this still is just one individual's position and is far from being an official position. See https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1230#comment:30 for a far better explanation; with that, I didn't think official position was necessary. Mirek -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On 03/07/2014 02:32 PM, Miloslav Trmač wrote: 2014-03-07 12:16 GMT+01:00 Ralf Corsepius rc040...@freenet.de mailto:rc040...@freenet.de: On 03/07/2014 11:53 AM, drago01 wrote: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=681339#c31 OK, that's better than nothing, but this still is just one individual's position and is far from being an official position. See https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1230#comment:30 for a far better explanation; with that, I didn't think official position was necessary. I think it is, because history tells you'll often find overzealous second-column activists, who are trying to defend or enforce positions, the first column or the broad mass never carried. Unfortunately, I am not in a position to estimate what applies, here. That said, if a Cherokee official would pronounce the negative position on the logo towards upstream, if I were upstream, I'd rename the project, because of this. If no Cherokee official would speak up, I'd not change anything about the project, but would have my very private thoughts about Fedora's and Red Hat's leadership. Ralf -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Viktorin wrote: On 03/07/2014 10:59 AM, H. Guémar wrote: Hi, I don't think that worrying about perpetuating offensive stereotypes is specifc to the US, we have similar controversies in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banania#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Controversies Well, read the second article. 92% of the Dutch public don't perceive Zwarte Piet as racist. I'm not saying it is or is not, or that it should or should not be fixed; I'm saying that there is a culture where this is not perceived as a big deal, as opposed to USA where political correctness is a big deal. Please, keep the term 'political correctness' out of it, as it is an inherently problematic term. It was invented by one side of the meta-debate as a stick with which to beat the other side, so its use in any ostensibly unbiased evaluation is inappropriate. Anyway, the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable in Fedora should be that no one should be offended by something that directly refers to him or his origins in a negative or hurtful way. My point is that the list him/her and his/her origins seems rather arbitrary. Why is e.g. his/her religion not on the list? There is at least one starkly obvious difference there, which is that you choose your religious beliefs and affiliations; you do not choose your race/color/general genetic origin. Still, drawing a line that simple would imply we could go around joyfully insulting religions left right and centre, and mostly people tend to refrain from doing that out of politeness if nothing else. But still, it seems like an important factor to consider. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 10:44 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 12:17 +0100, Petr Viktorin wrote: On 03/07/2014 10:59 AM, H. Guémar wrote: Hi, I don't think that worrying about perpetuating offensive stereotypes is specifc to the US, we have similar controversies in Europe: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banania#Controversy http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zwarte_Piet#Controversies Well, read the second article. 92% of the Dutch public don't perceive Zwarte Piet as racist. I'm not saying it is or is not, or that it should or should not be fixed; I'm saying that there is a culture where this is not perceived as a big deal, as opposed to USA where political correctness is a big deal. Please, keep the term 'political correctness' out of it, as it is an inherently problematic term. It was invented by one side of the meta-debate as a stick with which to beat the other side, so its use in any ostensibly unbiased evaluation is inappropriate. Anyway, the line between what is acceptable and unacceptable in Fedora should be that no one should be offended by something that directly refers to him or his origins in a negative or hurtful way. My point is that the list him/her and his/her origins seems rather arbitrary. Why is e.g. his/her religion not on the list? There is at least one starkly obvious difference there, which is that you choose your religious beliefs and affiliations; you do not choose your race/color/general genetic origin. Well people can choose to not be offended by random images / texts / whatever. There is is the option of just ignore. But unfortunatly a lot of people don't think that way. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 22:52 +0100, drago01 wrote: There is at least one starkly obvious difference there, which is that you choose your religious beliefs and affiliations; you do not choose your race/color/general genetic origin. Well people can choose to not be offended by random images / texts / whatever. There is is the option of just ignore. That is not a true choice. Ignoring the effect of marginalization that such offensive texts ignore is, effectively, opting into it. I'm gay. I can choose to ignore it when people yell 'faggot!' at me, but it's not a choice I should be forced, required or expected to make, and in a sense, it feels like a betrayal to the group being discriminated against to do so. Not speaking out is, in a sense, tantamount to accepting that sort of treatment as OK. (Not to criticize those in this or other commonly-discriminated-against groups who do choose to ignore offensive acts; there *are* valid reasons to make that choice in some circumstances, but it is not OK to say well, that's just what you should always do.) But unfortunatly a lot of people don't think that way. There are reasons why. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:33 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 22:52 +0100, drago01 wrote: There is at least one starkly obvious difference there, which is that you choose your religious beliefs and affiliations; you do not choose your race/color/general genetic origin. Well people can choose to not be offended by random images / texts / whatever. There is is the option of just ignore. That is not a true choice. Ignoring the effect of marginalization that such offensive texts ignore is, effectively, opting into it. I'm gay. I can choose to ignore it when people yell 'faggot!' at me, Well there is a difference between a direct attack on you and a random image somewhere. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
Am 07.03.2014 23:33, schrieb Adam Williamson: On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 22:52 +0100, drago01 wrote: There is at least one starkly obvious difference there, which is that you choose your religious beliefs and affiliations; you do not choose your race/color/general genetic origin. Well people can choose to not be offended by random images / texts / whatever. There is is the option of just ignore. That is not a true choice. Ignoring the effect of marginalization that such offensive texts ignore is, effectively, opting into it. I'm gay. I can choose to ignore it when people yell 'faggot!' at me, but it's not a choice I should be forced, required or expected to make, and in a sense, it feels like a betrayal to the group being discriminated against to do so. Not speaking out is, in a sense, tantamount to accepting that sort of treatment as OK. (Not to criticize those in this or other commonly-discriminated-against groups who do choose to ignore offensive acts; there *are* valid reasons to make that choice in some circumstances, but it is not OK to say well, that's just what you should always do.) But unfortunatly a lot of people don't think that way. There are reasons why not really good ones it is indeed a amercian phenomenon always feel personally abused by anything and if there is no actual reason people feel abused because they are ignored - if i seek for a reason to feel abused i will find one - mailing lists with english speakers prove that that is the same as german people are not allowed to criticize isreal even if they are 100% right because of their history while most where even not born at that time what about people live their live and just ignore things they don't like? life would be too easy? so hwat signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 23:57 +0100, drago01 wrote: On Fri, Mar 7, 2014 at 11:33 PM, Adam Williamson awill...@redhat.com wrote: On Fri, 2014-03-07 at 22:52 +0100, drago01 wrote: There is at least one starkly obvious difference there, which is that you choose your religious beliefs and affiliations; you do not choose your race/color/general genetic origin. Well people can choose to not be offended by random images / texts / whatever. There is is the option of just ignore. That is not a true choice. Ignoring the effect of marginalization that such offensive texts ignore is, effectively, opting into it. I'm gay. I can choose to ignore it when people yell 'faggot!' at me, Well there is a difference between a direct attack on you and a random image somewhere. There's a difference in immediacy and degree, but not in kind. It all ultimately contributes to the same effect. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 02:06 AM, Tomasz Torcz wrote: On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 03:57:02PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: * #1230Requesting FESCo address Cherokee logo issue (notting, 18:48:47) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1230 (notting, 18:48:47) * AGREED: FESCo decision reiterated. Package will be retired Monday if not fixed. (+:7,-:0,0:0) (notting, 18:54:42) Seriously? Retiring useful package? Isn't that a bit of overkill? (Yes, I'm grumpy because I'm using Cherokee). This has been discussed ad nauseam. The reasoning was that upstream ships imagery that is in violation of Fedora's policy not to ship offensive material. We gave the upstream maintainer two weeks to remove that imagery and update the package and have now extended that through Monday. Moreover, Toshio Kuratomi has now gone and used his provenpackager powers[1] to remove these offensive images and rebuild, which means that the package will remain. As for it being overkill: Fedora has policies for a reason. Regardless of the utility of a particular package, if its presence in the distribution is offensive (and thereby risks alienating users and contributors or potentially leading to legal action), then it has to be dealt with accordingly. [1] http://koji.fedoraproject.org/koji/buildinfo?buildID=502771 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMYcVQACgkQeiVVYja6o6NsJgCfRlz9kj65/KP1qj27AAGx0GjA 8b4An1PZy62DQ9ovQSHy9xiLKSIqLfA9 =kYp7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
sgallagh wrote: Seriously? Retiring useful package? Isn't that a bit of overkill? (Yes, I'm grumpy because I'm using Cherokee). This has been discussed ad nauseam. The reasoning was that upstream ships imagery that is in violation of Fedora's policy not to ship offensive material. [...] Considering the inherently political and subjective nature of this, could those policy terms be clarified so that offensiveness is defined simply by fesco construal? - FChE -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:47 PM, Frank Ch. Eigler f...@redhat.com wrote: sgallagh wrote: Seriously? Retiring useful package? Isn't that a bit of overkill? (Yes, I'm grumpy because I'm using Cherokee). This has been discussed ad nauseam. The reasoning was that upstream ships imagery that is in violation of Fedora's policy not to ship offensive material. [...] Considering the inherently political and subjective nature of this, could those policy terms be clarified so that offensiveness is defined simply by fesco construal? I doubt that this can be defined .. it has to be a case by case basis. For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 15:50:37 +0100, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. That depends on what you mean by official. I believe this issue got raised for the board. But the issue was raised close to the release, which may have tilted the decision toward keeping the name. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
Hi On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 9:50 AM, drago01 wrote: For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. Rahul -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 03:50:37PM +0100, drago01 wrote: For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. Additionally, there is a fundamental difference here. The problem isn't that someone might be offended -- people might be (and are) offended by anything. The problem is that the logo refers to a marginalized race of people using stereotyped imagery. While many people do not eat beef and hold cows sacred, the beefy miracle logo does not make any reference to those people. If it did, it too would have been a problem. -- Matthew Miller-- Fedora Project--mat...@fedoraproject.org -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 6:00 PM, Matthew Miller mat...@fedoraproject.org wrote: On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 03:50:37PM +0100, drago01 wrote: For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. Additionally, there is a fundamental difference here. The problem isn't that someone might be offended -- people might be (and are) offended by anything. The problem is that the logo refers to a marginalized race of people using stereotyped imagery. While many people do not eat beef and hold cows sacred, the beefy miracle logo does not make any reference to those people. If it did, it too would have been a problem. I don't think this difference matters in practice for those people. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Bruno Wolff III br...@wolff.to wrote: On Thu, Mar 06, 2014 at 15:50:37 +0100, drago01 drag...@gmail.com wrote: For instance we named a release beefy miracle and that might have been offensive for some people (ex. in India)., but apparently no one cared enough to officially complain. That depends on what you mean by official. I believe this issue got raised for the board. OK I seem to have missed that. But the issue was raised close to the release, which may have tilted the decision toward keeping the name. Really? Changing a name has way less of an effect then removing a package (ok removing the package was the last resort) but still. But anyway my point was rather we have been inconsistent in enforcing this rule anyway because everyone else have different opinions on what offending means (see Matthews reply) ... so trying to come up with a definition wouldn't really work because some people would be well ... offended ... by the definition of offended ... so lets not open this can of worms. -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. Kevin Kofler -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 03:02 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. This statement is blatantly false. Brought to our attention, FESCo would treat similar instances the same way worldwide. I don't want to start listing marginalized groups in Europe, Asia and Africa (that might be offensive in and of itself), but they exist and would be accorded the same courtesy. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMY1ogACgkQeiVVYja6o6P/cwCfURlBAW3bEng/slt4FKYiSl6o L4YAni5lP+DN5BhBKxeWI2crEEx2H4No =JFHG -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 03:11 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On 03/06/2014 03:02 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. This statement is blatantly false. Brought to our attention, FESCo would treat similar instances the same way worldwide. I don't want to start listing marginalized groups in Europe, Asia and Africa (that might be offensive in and of itself), but they exist and would be accorded the same courtesy. (Also Australia, sorry. Not ignored on purpose.) I think I can leave Antarctica off the list safely, though. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1 Comment: Using GnuPG with Thunderbird - http://www.enigmail.net/ iEYEARECAAYFAlMY13sACgkQeiVVYja6o6M6lgCfRg9g7YPnMhL8X5eUX0BPMHc6 UvwAnR0ksKBySPj8EeIy5UNRjqpZF2Tg =r9P1 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
Stephen Gallagher wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 03/06/2014 03:11 PM, Stephen Gallagher wrote: On 03/06/2014 03:02 PM, Kevin Kofler wrote: Rahul Sundaram wrote: I certainly did file a complaint against generic-logos which has a similar problem with Fedora Board which in turn dismissed my concern and failed to answer my follow up question and I gave up on it. That is of course artwork that Fedora itself is upstream of rather than merely something we package. One would hope that the new standard applies to concerns outside of U.S as well. That's the crux of the issue, offensive is really interpreted as offensive to people in the USA. That just does not make sense for a worldwide distribution, nor even for an international company. This statement is blatantly false. Brought to our attention, FESCo would treat similar instances the same way worldwide. I don't want to start listing marginalized groups in Europe, Asia and Africa (that might be offensive in and of itself), but they exist and would be accorded the same courtesy. (Also Australia, sorry. Not ignored on purpose.) I think I can leave Antarctica off the list safely, though. Now the Polynesians are feeling left out because you didn't say Oceania. ;-þ -- Björn Persson signature.asc Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
=== #fedora-meeting: FESCO (2014-03-05) === Meeting started by sgallagh at 17:59:49 UTC. The full logs are available at http://meetbot.fedoraproject.org/fedora-meeting/2014-03-05/fesco.2014-03-05-17.59.log.html . Meeting summary --- * init process (sgallagh, 18:00:06) * mitr pjones nirik abadger1999 dgilmore sgallagh mattdm t8m present. notting coming shortly (sgallagh, 18:04:12) * #1178 Fedora 21 scheduling strategy (sgallagh, 18:04:31) * ACTION: jreznik to work up and provide a schedule proposal for Oct 14 target date for next week. (sgallagh, 18:26:43) * #1221 Product working group activity reports (sgallagh, 18:27:06) * The general consensus here seems to be: Everyone was working on Tech Specs (mattdm, 18:27:47) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Workstation/Technical_Specification (mattdm, 18:29:52) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Cloud_Changelist (mattdm, 18:29:58) * https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Server/Technical_Specification (mattdm, 18:30:19) * we're all pretty happy with the way the wg discussion about filesystems went, providing a good example of how broader issues should be dealt with in the fedora.nex structure (mattdm, 18:37:58) * #1230Requesting FESCo address Cherokee logo issue (notting, 18:48:47) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1230 (notting, 18:48:47) * AGREED: FESCo decision reiterated. Package will be retired Monday if not fixed. (+:7,-:0,0:0) (notting, 18:54:42) * #1219Contributor nationality (notting, 18:57:23) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1219 (notting, 18:57:24) * current countries that are export restricted are: cuba, iran, north korea, sudan, and syria. (pjones, 18:59:37) * Sponsors (or any other contributors) in Fedora should not make any effort to determine a contributor's nationality, country of origin, or area of residence. (notting, 19:00:00) * If a potential contributor independently (and explicitly) reveals their nationality, country of origin, or area of residence, and that nationality, country of origin, or area of residence is in one of the export restricted countries, then they are required to bring that information to the attention of Fedora Legal (notting, 19:00:25) * In the specific case that prompted this ticket, Fedora Legal has deemed the contributor is OK. (notting, 19:00:50) * #1240taking ownership of packages fityk and sundials (notting, 19:02:34) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1240 (notting, 19:02:34) * AGREED: nirk will request a direct ack from nonresponsive maintainer via e-mail, and then proceed with reassigning (+:9, -:0, 0:0) (notting, 19:06:01) * #1241Cloud WG list of changes (notting, 19:06:37) * LINK: https://fedorahsted.org/fesco/ticket/1241 (notting, 19:06:37) * Please discuss changes here on list for now; will be discussed more in the FESCo meeting when they go through the change process. (notting, 19:11:51) * People are specifically encouraged to read the 'External Changes' section and discuss those with the Cloud SIG (notting, 19:12:11) * #1242Update policy proposal: disable autokarma on AutoQA fail (notting, 19:13:24) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1242 (notting, 19:13:29) * AGREED: Proposal in ticket to disable autokarma if AutoQA fails accepted (+:9,-:0,0:0) (notting, 19:20:22) * 1243 Consider release blocking status of KDE spin(?) for Fedora 21 in .next decision-making (notting, 19:21:57) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1243 (notting, 19:21:57) * AGREED: defer this one week waiting for more feedback from both KDE SIG and Workstation WG (+:7,-:0,0:0) (notting, 19:25:45) * Next week's chair (notting, 19:28:20) * mattdm to chair next week's meeting (notting, 19:29:15) * Open Floor (notting, 19:29:21) Meeting ended at 19:36:07 UTC. Action Items * jreznik to work up and provide a schedule proposal for Oct 14 target date for next week. Action Items, by person --- * jreznik * jreznik to work up and provide a schedule proposal for Oct 14 target date for next week. People Present (lines said) --- * sgallagh (93) * notting (78) * dgilmore (57) * mattdm (56) * nirik (40) * mitr (34) * abadger1999 (33) * t8m (33) * pjones (33) * drago01 (22) * zodbot (18) * jwb (18) * adamw (16) * jreznik (16) * EvilBob (2) * tflink (1) * masta (1) * mmaslano (0) Generated by `MeetBot`_ 0.1.4 .. _`MeetBot`: http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot 17:59:49 sgallagh #startmeeting FESCO (2014-03-05) 17:59:49 zodbot Meeting started Wed Mar 5 17:59:49 2014 UTC. The chair is sgallagh. Information about MeetBot at http://wiki.debian.org/MeetBot. 17:59:49 zodbot Useful Commands: #action #agreed
Re: Summary/Minutes from today's FESCo Meeting (2014-03-05)
On Wed, Mar 05, 2014 at 03:57:02PM -0500, Bill Nottingham wrote: * #1230Requesting FESCo address Cherokee logo issue (notting, 18:48:47) * LINK: https://fedorahosted.org/fesco/ticket/1230 (notting, 18:48:47) * AGREED: FESCo decision reiterated. Package will be retired Monday if not fixed. (+:7,-:0,0:0) (notting, 18:54:42) Seriously? Retiring useful package? Isn't that a bit of overkill? (Yes, I'm grumpy because I'm using Cherokee). -- Tomasz Torcz ,,(...) today's high-end is tomorrow's embedded processor.'' xmpp: zdzich...@chrome.pl -- Mitchell Blank on LKML pgp1fyHyMitao.pgp Description: PGP signature -- devel mailing list devel@lists.fedoraproject.org https://admin.fedoraproject.org/mailman/listinfo/devel Fedora Code of Conduct: http://fedoraproject.org/code-of-conduct
