Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 4:25 PM Kamil Paral wrote: > I'd accept the criterion as proposed (because we need it now), and do the > reorganization later (possibly when this cycle is over and we have more > time to bikeshed about best criterion layout). I'm fine with either adding > to the existing criterion (mine version) or creating a standalone criterion > (Geoff's version), just note that the standalone version would still need > to get tweaked (remove "multiple user accounts", etc). > In accordance with the discussion during the last QA meeting, I've put my proposed changes live: https://fedoraproject.org/w/index.php?title=Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria=revision=586432=576081 ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, 2020-08-04 at 14:47 +0200, Kamil Paral wrote: > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Geoffrey Marr wrote: > > > At today's blocker review meeting[0], we ran across a bug[1] that we > > believe is bad enough to warrant blocker status, but as the criteria > > currently stand, does not violate any particular criterion. The bug in > > question has to do with logging out of one user account and logging into > > another account that has already been accessed before during that boot. The > > criterion listed in the bug[2] doesn't seem to fit, as it is more focused > > on what happens after the system is booted (which does work in the case of > > this bug). There is a Final criterion[3] that covers switching between two > > accounts, where the data in the account switched out of is retained, but > > that is not the case presented here (as this bug has to do with "logging > > in/out" of accounts, not "switching" as they are defined technically). > > Intellectually, we believe this type of bug should violate the criteria, as > > it seems a common use-case, and so we are bringing it up as a possible > > addition as there is nothing that currently covers this kind of bug. > > > > The new criterion could look something like "A system with multiple user > > accounts must be able to log in and out of said accounts as presented by > > all release-blocking desktops in their default configuration." > > > > Actually, I'd make this even simpler. We already have a Beta criterion > related to logging out (among others): > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria#Shutdown.2C_reboot.2C_logout > > So let's just include logging in as well, and we're done: > "Shutting down, rebooting, logging in and logging out must work using > standard console commands and the mechanisms offered (if any) by all > release-blocking desktops." > > We'd also update the "Work?" footnote: > "Similar to the Basic criterion for shutting down, shutdown and reboot > mechanisms must take storage volumes down cleanly and correctly request a > shutdown or reboot from the system firmware. Logging in must transfer the > user from the login screen/prompt to his/her working environment, and > logging out must return the user to the environment from which they logged > in, working as expected." > > This sufficiently covers the discussed bug and seems to fit naturally into > the existing criterion. One unclear area might be what the console console > used for logging in is. We can either explicitly say that for logging in we > don't require any specific console command, or we can note that the most > likely command to get covered by this is "su". We can also not define it > and leave that up to blocker discussion, if such a situation occurs in the > future. I'd lean towards the last option, but all sound fine to me. As mentioned in the IRC meeting today, I have a small nit with this: the criterion as it exists right now is conceptually intended as a "Stopping The Session" criterion. It covers three things which are all, broadly, ways to stop the current session. If we stick "logging in" into it in this way, we lose that conceptual clarity and it potentially makes the overall...idea...of the criterion more muddy and hard to read. On the whole I feel like considering all requirements related to log in, log out, shutdown, restart, and user switch together we should be able to come up with a better option either than a standalone new criterion (Geoff's proposal) or this add-on to the "end session" criterion (Kamil's proposal), but I think either proposal would be *okay* if we don't get the time to come up with something better. Just wanted to flag that up for discussion. -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | identi.ca: adamwfedora http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Thu, Aug 6, 2020 at 5:47 AM Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > I'm really uncomfortable about the amount of crossp-posting, so I'm > limiting this to devel@ (I receive it) and test@ (obvious to me why > relevant). > > Kamil Paral writes: > > Adam writes: > > > > Arguably the environment from which they logged in is not > > > "working as expected" if you can't then log in as someone else. > > > > However, the existing basic criterion [1] only requires the *initially* > > created user to be able to log in. So if you create a second user, and > > can't log in with it after a system boot, > > Adam's argument is that this is covered by "working as expected". > It's not covered in the situation I described. Adam's quoted criterion only applies after log out, and so it doesn't apply to secondary users (created after system installation) which try to log in immediately after system boot (so there is no previous log out) and it fails. > > FWIW, I think that the criterion should be something like > > users created by *scripts* as part of a *supported* installation > or upgrade process and which are documented as able to log in, > must be able to log in from any condition where login is > documented to be possible. Logging out must return the login > facilities to the state in which log in occurred unless some > *condition* (such as shutdown in progress) *explicitly* changes > it. > I don't think we should only guarantee login for users created during installation. That seems very poor QA and I wouldn't want to use a system in which I can create a user but it can't log in and "it's OK". We should guarantee login for all users which pass some sanity check (i.e. you create them using standard tools and approaches and don't do anything horrible to them). Unlike your proposed criterion (which is very convoluted to cover those corner cases), I don't think we need to specify them. That's the point of the blocker meeting, to discuss that particular situation. If somebody removed their login shell, well, that's clearly not our problem and not a criterion violation - it doesn't need to be codified. On the other hand, if a regular system update removed that login shell, that's a big bummer on our side. I prefer easy-to-understand criteria which might not cover all corner cases (they'll never will, even if you try), but convey the intended goal well, and people can then use them as a basis for decision making (while considering all the circumstances). I'm not sure what you mean by "documented". I wouldn't rely on Fedora documentation too much in these cases. So that would mean we'd also need to create and maintain some lists of "which users are supposed to be able to log in" and "in which conditions the logins are possible". ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
I'm really uncomfortable about the amount of crossp-posting, so I'm limiting this to devel@ (I receive it) and test@ (obvious to me why relevant). Kamil Paral writes: > Adam writes: > > Arguably the environment from which they logged in is not > > "working as expected" if you can't then log in as someone else. > > However, the existing basic criterion [1] only requires the *initially* > created user to be able to log in. So if you create a second user, and > can't log in with it after a system boot, Adam's argument is that this is covered by "working as expected". FWIW, I think that the criterion should be something like users created by *scripts* as part of a *supported* installation or upgrade process and which are documented as able to log in, must be able to log in from any condition where login is documented to be possible. Logging out must return the login facilities to the state in which log in occurred unless some *condition* (such as shutdown in progress) *explicitly* changes it. By "scripts" and "supported" I mean to rule out situations where a admin abused the facilities (such as after generating the standard users root and alice by answering the "username" and "password" questions, they go on to create bob and cindy and misspecify the user's shell). Of course if user error occurs, we should see if we can do better, but my understanding is that this is a criterion for "blockers", and that's why I want to rule out user error. By "explicit condition" I mean that if a bug is reported "I can't log in after X" and it is determined that some condition holds that prevents the login, it's OK to either fix the condition, or document that that condition prevents login. Similarly, documenting is OK if something happens after logging out that the user didn't expect, but on reflection seems reasonable from the point of view of the development community. Another plausible admin error case is where some user has decided to make obsoletewhenfirstreleasedsh their shell and the "supported process" *deletes* that shell. (We might want to fix that one rather than documenting it, since it's easy enough to check. For all I know, we already do! I've never deleted a shell package. ;-) Steve ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 5:07 PM Adam Williamson wrote: > There's a sort of technical argument to be made that this is covered by > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria#desktop-shutdown-reboot-logout > . > That says "Shutting down, logging out and rebooting must work using > standard console commands and the mechanisms offered (if any) by all > release-blocking desktops", with a footnote "Logging out must return > the user to the environment from which they logged in, working as > expected." Arguably the environment from which they logged in is not > "working as expected" if you can't then log in as someone else. > However, the existing basic criterion [1] only requires the *initially* created user to be able to log in. So if you create a second user, and can't log in with it after a system boot, that would not be covered by neither the basic one nor the one you just quoted. It would be covered by the proposed change I made, though. I think it's a good idea to have a clear "logging is must work" criterion somewhere. [1] https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Basic_Release_Criteria#Expected_installed_system_boot_behavior > Adding a more explicit requirement wouldn't hurt, though, I guess. I > sort of feel like it would be nice to somehow combine and rationalize > all these related requirements somehow... > I'm not sure what exactly you have on mind. How would you like to improve it? By having log in/out + shutdown + reboot in the same criterion, it seems quite "combined". ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, 2020-08-04 at 00:49 -0600, Geoffrey Marr wrote: > At today's blocker review meeting[0], we ran across a bug[1] that we > believe is bad enough to warrant blocker status, but as the criteria > currently stand, does not violate any particular criterion. The bug in > question has to do with logging out of one user account and logging into > another account that has already been accessed before during that boot. The > criterion listed in the bug[2] doesn't seem to fit, as it is more focused > on what happens after the system is booted (which does work in the case of > this bug). There is a Final criterion[3] that covers switching between two > accounts, where the data in the account switched out of is retained, but > that is not the case presented here (as this bug has to do with "logging > in/out" of accounts, not "switching" as they are defined technically). > Intellectually, we believe this type of bug should violate the criteria, as > it seems a common use-case, and so we are bringing it up as a possible > addition as there is nothing that currently covers this kind of bug. > > The new criterion could look something like "A system with multiple user > accounts must be able to log in and out of said accounts as presented by > all release-blocking desktops in their default configuration." > > We would appreciate feedback on this idea and the wording of the criterion. > Should this be a beta or a final blocker? If nothing is heard in a > reasonable amount of time (before next week's blocker review meeting), we > will assume there is no issue with the proposal and add it to the criteria > at that time. There's a sort of technical argument to be made that this is covered by https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria#desktop-shutdown-reboot-logout . That says "Shutting down, logging out and rebooting must work using standard console commands and the mechanisms offered (if any) by all release-blocking desktops", with a footnote "Logging out must return the user to the environment from which they logged in, working as expected." Arguably the environment from which they logged in is not "working as expected" if you can't then log in as someone else. Adding a more explicit requirement wouldn't hurt, though, I guess. I sort of feel like it would be nice to somehow combine and rationalize all these related requirements somehow... -- Adam Williamson Fedora QA Community Monkey IRC: adamw | Twitter: AdamW_Fedora | XMPP: adamw AT happyassassin . net http://www.happyassassin.net ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, Aug 04, 2020 at 09:18:56AM -0400, Ben Cotton wrote: > On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:48 AM Kamil Paral wrote: > > > > Actually, I'd make this even simpler. We already have a Beta criterion > > related to logging out (among others): > > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria#Shutdown.2C_reboot.2C_logout > > > > So let's just include logging in as well, and we're done: > > "Shutting down, rebooting, logging in and logging out must work using > > standard console commands and the mechanisms offered (if any) by all > > release-blocking desktops." > > > > We'd also update the "Work?" footnote: > > "Similar to the Basic criterion for shutting down, shutdown and reboot > > mechanisms must take storage volumes down cleanly and correctly request a > > shutdown or reboot from the system firmware. Logging in must transfer the > > user from the login screen/prompt to his/her working environment, and > > logging out must return the user to the environment from which they logged > > in, working as expected." > > > Simple is good. I like this approach. +1 Maybe "their" and not "his/her" — "his/her" is already starting to feel dated. Zbyszek ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:48 AM Kamil Paral wrote: > > Actually, I'd make this even simpler. We already have a Beta criterion > related to logging out (among others): > https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria#Shutdown.2C_reboot.2C_logout > > So let's just include logging in as well, and we're done: > "Shutting down, rebooting, logging in and logging out must work using > standard console commands and the mechanisms offered (if any) by all > release-blocking desktops." > > We'd also update the "Work?" footnote: > "Similar to the Basic criterion for shutting down, shutdown and reboot > mechanisms must take storage volumes down cleanly and correctly request a > shutdown or reboot from the system firmware. Logging in must transfer the > user from the login screen/prompt to his/her working environment, and logging > out must return the user to the environment from which they logged in, > working as expected." > Simple is good. I like this approach. -- Ben Cotton He / Him / His Fedora Program Manager Red Hat TZ=America/Indiana/Indianapolis ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, Aug 4, 2020 at 8:50 AM Geoffrey Marr wrote: > At today's blocker review meeting[0], we ran across a bug[1] that we > believe is bad enough to warrant blocker status, but as the criteria > currently stand, does not violate any particular criterion. The bug in > question has to do with logging out of one user account and logging into > another account that has already been accessed before during that boot. The > criterion listed in the bug[2] doesn't seem to fit, as it is more focused > on what happens after the system is booted (which does work in the case of > this bug). There is a Final criterion[3] that covers switching between two > accounts, where the data in the account switched out of is retained, but > that is not the case presented here (as this bug has to do with "logging > in/out" of accounts, not "switching" as they are defined technically). > Intellectually, we believe this type of bug should violate the criteria, as > it seems a common use-case, and so we are bringing it up as a possible > addition as there is nothing that currently covers this kind of bug. > > The new criterion could look something like "A system with multiple user > accounts must be able to log in and out of said accounts as presented by > all release-blocking desktops in their default configuration." > Actually, I'd make this even simpler. We already have a Beta criterion related to logging out (among others): https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_33_Beta_Release_Criteria#Shutdown.2C_reboot.2C_logout So let's just include logging in as well, and we're done: "Shutting down, rebooting, logging in and logging out must work using standard console commands and the mechanisms offered (if any) by all release-blocking desktops." We'd also update the "Work?" footnote: "Similar to the Basic criterion for shutting down, shutdown and reboot mechanisms must take storage volumes down cleanly and correctly request a shutdown or reboot from the system firmware. Logging in must transfer the user from the login screen/prompt to his/her working environment, and logging out must return the user to the environment from which they logged in, working as expected." This sufficiently covers the discussed bug and seems to fit naturally into the existing criterion. One unclear area might be what the console console used for logging in is. We can either explicitly say that for logging in we don't require any specific console command, or we can note that the most likely command to get covered by this is "su". We can also not define it and leave that up to blocker discussion, if such a situation occurs in the future. I'd lean towards the last option, but all sound fine to me. Thoughts? ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On 04.08.20 11:54, Paul Howarth wrote: > If you remove the "with multiple user accounts" then being able to log > in and out on a single-user system would satisfy the requirement even > if the multi-user bug was present, which wouldn't be very helpful. Hm, true. As usual, the devil is in the details. Christopher ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On Tue, 4 Aug 2020 10:55:30 +0200 Christopher Engelhard wrote: > On 04.08.20 10:47, Miro Hrončok wrote: > > I would even go further and remove the "with multiple user accounts" > > condition. Even on a singe user system, I'd like to be able to log > > out and back in again. > > +1 on that. If you remove the "with multiple user accounts" then being able to log in and out on a single-user system would satisfy the requirement even if the multi-user bug was present, which wouldn't be very helpful. Paul. ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On 04.08.20 10:47, Miro Hrončok wrote: > I would even go further and remove the "with multiple user accounts" > condition. Even on a singe user system, I'd like to be able to log out > and back in again. +1 on that. Christopher ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
Re: Proposal to Add: Log In/Out Blocker Criteria
On 04. 08. 20 8:49, Geoffrey Marr wrote: "A system with multiple user accounts must be able to log in and out of said accounts as presented by all release-blocking desktops in their default configuration." I would even go further and remove the "with multiple user accounts" condition. Even on a singe user system, I'd like to be able to log out and back in again. +1 to make this a beta blocker -- Miro Hrončok -- Phone: +420777974800 IRC: mhroncok ___ devel mailing list -- devel@lists.fedoraproject.org To unsubscribe send an email to devel-le...@lists.fedoraproject.org Fedora Code of Conduct: https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/ List Guidelines: https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Mailing_list_guidelines List Archives: https://lists.fedoraproject.org/archives/list/devel@lists.fedoraproject.org
