> > > Has the following idea already come up? How about just turning off
> > > the wlan entirely during suspend, if the machine has reason to
> > > believe that its contribution to mesh connectivity is negligible?
We can do better, without losing any functionality in school deployments.
Fi
> > we did try this with -rc2 (we upgraded 4-5 machines to -rc2 over the
> > wekend.)
>
> I just tried it again with my two machines and it worked for about 60
> seconds (at which time the one running on battery did a suspend and the
> activity stopped)
Why would an activity break when awaiting
readily discoverable. Stop trying to hide this very useful concept
from the end users. Follow the Mac of 2008 rather than the Macintosh
of 1984. (The Macintosh upgraded to a hierarchical filesystem in
1985, one year after its introduction.)
John Gilmore
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> > Many activities are calling PS get_preferred_connection() ...
> > However, during the period when we stop salut to let gabble try to
> > connect, this call fails as there is no running plugin in PS. If an
> > activity is launched during this time ... crash with a gray screen.
> > This affects:
Morgan, thank you for the detailed response.
> Also the "two kids sitting under a tree somewhere" scenario must Just Work.
Absolutely. But ordinary Internet access doesn't work in Mongolia,
and probably isn't going to work in update.1. So, everything will
work eventually, when all bugs are fixe
OK, children of the world, please calm down. There are a few too many
bugs and egos flaring up to come to a reasonable resolution. This is
an interdisciplinary problem that crosses too many architectural
boundaries for any of us to be comfortable seeing the whole picture.
I filed a bug report ab
> Can you explain how is this not mooted by considering mDNS, which XO's
> all run and listen for?
No, I cannot; someone who understands mDNS should describe the
protocol and its implications. I could go off and read the RFC
eventually (is it spec'd by Informational RFC 4795? Or does the code
im
ith
Microsoft on applications and Internet software" said Jobs. "We are
confident that this is the beginning of a much closer relationship
between the two companies, which will greatly benefit our common
customers."
John
From: John Gilmore [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: T
There has long been a lot of confusion about power consumption. Many
statements were made over the years about the *design goal* for power
consumption. The XO did not actually hit that design goal -- but
since suspend/resume was the last major feature to debug in the
hardware, until it got to the
> Ricardo, if you think there is anything else different with B4s in regards
> to network performance, please tell us. I'm not aware of anything in
> hardware.
They don't suspend. So if MP's have networking trouble that happens when
a laptop suspends, the trouble won't happen on a B4.
Jo
appy that the owner of
the SSS/OLPC can have fun tinkering with it, but there are hundreds of
thousands of people with ordinary OLPCs who we aim to support -- with
free software -- in the XO software releases and websites.
John Gilmore
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> Hmmm, so if my activity needs it's preferences before it can display
> anything to the user, potential future lazy loading of the data-store
> (to try and speed up general activity start-up time) is going to leave
> folks watching my activity with a blank screen for a lazy while? Ouch.
Ahe
> Nepal should receive its shipment of 200 XO's in roughly 14 days
Congratulations!
> How do I get developer keys for all 200 XO's and then how do I
> deactivate the developer keys after I no longer need access to the
> firmware?
(You also need developer keys to install a new OS or kernel releas
> uucp ... the first place I'd turn for
> sneaker-netting posix-ish systems together.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UUCP
Yep. UUCP is great if there's a phone line that can dial overnight
cheaply, but no Internet. I released the first free implementation of
uucp (gnuucp), which was later succe
> How do I prevent 'Read' (or whatever) from letting my XO 'suspend' ?
> p.s. I believe I've also seen an unwanted 'suspend' when I
> temporarily closed the lid (despite the inhibit-suspend file).
The simplest way is to go back to Build 656, which never suspends unless
you write manually to
> Terminal, Log Viewer, and Analyze are not included in the core build,
> but they *are* included in the core *library*. That is, you can
> always install them, even though they may not show up by default in
> the toolbar.
Why would we burn up Flash space for activities that are not accessibl
> Regarding the suggestion of LED bulbs - a smart person on another list
> said that many brands of LED bulbs are also prone to failure due to bad
> power - so don't treat them as a panacea.
+1
I personally tested a variety of AC-powered LED light bulbs. Not a
single one survived more than eig
http://www.businessweek.com/technology/content/mar2008/tc2008035_429837.htm
OLPC is looking for a CEO. Nicholas is more of an "idea man", and he
plans to continue as Chairman and cheerleader. But he appears to have
realized that with its current management, the organization can't
outgrow its ear
The removal of activities seems to be happening under the assumption
that people will use a USB memory stick to upgrade their laptops. Was
it only a few months ago that I was told, "Skip the USB install notes,
all the updating is going to happen via olpc-update from now on"? Now
the story is "Cou
> XO's by simply sticking in a USB key and holding down the game buttons.
> I know some folks like John Gilmore feel that everyone has an
> inalienable right to access the firmware,
I'm sorry that you got that impression. Not everything translates well
across international border
> In other words, I think that in terms of third party content and
> activities, we want to be "culturally neutral" by supporting all
> types, cultures, religions, and ideals, rather than by ignoring all of
> them.
+1.
It did seem odd to me that a whole application would be dedicated to
reading (
> The second thing is basic UI usability. The pop-around menu border makes the
> UI
> thoroughly unusable with the trackpad
http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/4910 covers this issue and more.
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>4. It is unfortunate that a respected conference did not do a
> better job at vetting this paper.
The conference is a small USENIX workshop (Usability, Psychology and
Security). USENIX workshops generally involve fewer than 100
participants, more timely work, and less pre-publication peer r
> At OLE Nepal we need to let our etoys image allow writing to disk,
> however under rainbow the image is executed under another user id.
> What's the way to give an/our activity permission to write to certain
> directories without just making them world writable, which is surely
> not the way to g
> (APs in infrastructure mode) is what is happening
> on the ground mostly. Still, it's not good as it kills the
> mesh-to-the-school scheme which is one of the key technical goals.
This should be easy to fix. Re-enable the NetworkManager code that
allows any laptop to gateway the mesh to the Int
"Morgan Collett" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I'm now working for OLPC, on improving activity collaboration.
This is great!
The best thing OLPC could do to improve activity collaboration is to
get it working for ordinary programs -- running on the X Window
System, or on MacOSX, or Windows. Why d
> > That said, Sugar needs to
> > be disentangled. I keep using the omelet analogy, claiming it needs to be a
> > fried egg, with distinct yoke and white, rather than having the UI,
> > collaborative tools, power management and radios merge into one amorphous
> > blob.
>
> My understanding is that
> Considering the complete sentence, it is clear to me that this is a
> case of the reporter being confused by technology. We all know that
> Sugar could never run on Windows as well it as can run on Linux. The
> laptop might run Windows or Linux or both, but not Sugar on Windows.
Do "we all know"
> | The presence implementation only works on access points and on meshes --
> | but not on non-meshed, ad-hoc 802.11. The vast majority of computers
> | with 802.11 don't have mesh, but they would benefit from being able to
> | "see" nearby laptops and share applications with them ...
>
> There i
> I fought long and hard to get the principle of free and open added to
> the core principles of OLPC because I believe that (a) there is power
> in freedom ... (b) there is efficiency in freedom ... .
Not to mention that there's freedom in freedom. :-}
One aspect of freedom that has gone unmen
> I'll say that the impression that I have received as an outsider is that
> the people working on Sugar have not at all been interested in
> compatibility with normal linux software.
It's more accurate to say that while they are somewhat interested in
that as an abstract idea, they are much mor
Part of the fun of reading press releases and legal arguments is
figuring out what they deliberately left out.
In Adobe's case, gnash and swfdec were conspicuously not mentioned.
The closest they came was here:
http://www.adobe.com/openscreenproject/faq/index.html
... we want to ensure the i
Another way I think of (what I think is) Jim's naming issue is:
A kid uses their OLPC for a few years, does all her work on it, then
graduates, moves to the capital city, and goes to college. She's
written papers on her OLPC, done experiments and logged the results,
exchanged significant
> 1) upstart wants to be pid 1. We reserve pid 1 for our own use. We can
> remove the conflict with a dirty hack, contained in the upstart RPMs at
> http://dev.laptop.org/~mstone/olpc3-repo. Probably, we need to
> implement --init for upstart. (Or not use upstart.)
Since our PID 1 isn't really do
> The maximum number of multicast addresses per virtual device has been cut in
> half to ensure that the merged list can be accommodated by the hardware.
If we allocated DRAM this way, no process could use more than 1/N of
the memory, where N is the number of processes. Surely this is
inappropria
> Specifically, check out Feel free to look at the latest at
> wiki.laptop.org/go/Designs/Frame for details on the changes which will
> imbue the Frame with much more utility. We still need to address the
> usability concerns, naturally, ...
See dev.laptop.org/ticket/4910 for a critique of the us
I was pleased that the main Sugar Labs page reports:
http://wiki.sugarlabs.org/go/Main_Page
"This is a list of some Activites that are installed by default."
followed by icons for Browse, Read, Write, Record, Log, Pippy, Terminal, etc.
Every fork is an opportunity to get things right that w
> [NN] then claimed no OLPC resources would
> be devoted to the project. I'm left wondering how many of those
> resources went into this firmware mod.
The firmware mod required weeks of a skilled engineer's time. This
engineer put in the time, partly or fully paid by OLPC
rt for a stolen product, yet they would
still be weaning kids away from Linux.
John Gilmore (not an OLPC employee!)
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> one reason would be that DSA is more secure then RSA. If you have a copy
> of the secret key from one end of the conversation and they are using RSA
> you can decrypt the communication, with DSA you cannot do so.
That blanket statement is false.
I'm still working my way through the RFC's for
> What are the software plans for the second-generation XO?
First they need to build one out of something other than modeling clay
and Photoshop.
Then whenever your hand comes close to the laptop, ugly black bars are
going to cover all the edges of that nice sky-blue screen.
There's no need to g
> >> Specifically, http://dev.laptop.org/ticket/7125.
> >>
> >> What do people think of the straw man in that ticket? Should we
> >> implement it?
My comments are in the ticket; let's move the discussion there, where it
belongs.
John
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> what do people think about the idea of making the existance of established
> TCP connections inhibit sleep?
What release are you running? Auto-suspend isn't enabled in production
releases.
Joyride should be awakened from suspend by any received unicast (TCP) packet,
so I'm not sure why you s
> (when booted with the o gamekey held down also shows build 656 (which I
> know didn't have auto-suspend enabled) both with kernel
> 2.6.22.20071231*3a269
>
> so now I'm as puzzled as you are.
If you were displaying a PDF file in another window, a gross kludge in
Read might have forcibly suspe
Jim:
> My point is somewhat different: the only way out of the compilation
> trust trap is another compiler. Unless someone has done this for gcc,
> it has the identical problem, and there are many possible upstream
> attacks. I see no reason (probably less) to trust the chain of trust
> for gcc
My only experience with Squeak/eToys up til now was trying it on the
OLPC as a naive user. Poking at objects on the screen with the
handles, since that was the only tutorial offered. The way the darn
thing "saved its workspace" in the friggin Journal whenever you tried
to quit it reminded me of a
> The activity start script should configure Opera to put its
> configuration file in $SUGAR_ACTIVITY_ROOT/data instead of
> $HOME/.opera. Also it should set umask to 0002 so the config file is
> group-writable (otherwise the next activity instance cannot overwrite).
>
> See http://wiki.lapt
> ...I suspect that [delay]'s the ~1.5s it takes to verify the signature on the
> dev key. For many deployments that will be 1.5s to check a signature
> on an activation lease. The original design was to cache that check
> in some secure manner, but there's not really any appropriate
> protected
> >> mystery to me. That is why I use a "permanent" SD card, with my
> >> develop.sig on that card -- then if I need to re-flash NAND I don't
> >> have to worry about who/how puts a develop.sig file in NAND.
Back near Christmas, I put text into the Activation and Developer Keys
page recommending
> They are being innundated with "new" problems caused
> by full disk (but weren't really aware that was the cause.)
>
> Since fixes in 8.2 won't help them for months, they need
> the short term fix (c).
Mitch added Forth words to delete files from the NAND flash, after
we had similar troubles af
I should've said that just removing a couple of useless or easily
replaced files -- rather than reflashing -- means that the kids don't
lose all their work when the NAND fills up.
John
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What a bikeshed... Could mgmt please assign one person to push this to
resolution?
> We need both the reliability in Sugar/Journal
> and decent handling of "disk-full boot".
For Uruguay, you can't fix it til it can boot.
Thus, any small change that makes the machine boot up is an enabler.
A si
> > 2) Sugar would run more smoothly on-XO if jhbuild were retired.
> I think this is a good point in the abstract. Do any frequent contributors
> *not* have an XO?
I approve of retiring jhbuild, and handing out XO's to Sugar
contributors, but you've really got the question backwards:
=> Do
> >can't think of a faster way to make developers give up on our
> >platform as a lost cause.
As someone whose year-long OLPC-specific project (SimCity) was broken
by Sugar interface changes right before the 650 release, I can report
that it was pretty disheartening. Both the sound and the runn
> Why does it matter that you cannot adjust the screen brightness from
> the console using the special keys? You can adjust it from Sugar
> without root access. The idea was to understand what limits we'd face
> using the console for root access instead of a special terminal
> activity. What are th
> ok wifi my-ssid
> ok flash http:\\dev.laptop.org\~wmb
This didn't work; it required saying:
> ok flash http:\\dev.laptop.org\~wmb\q2e12f.rom
Once I'd flashed it, it doesn't complain about either my tiny 4GB
microSD-to-USB reader, nor about the 2GB reader that precede
But peaceful coexistence, plus superior technology
and licensing on the GNU/Linux side, are our best path to compete with
it for mindshare and market share. Most of the improvements being
made here will be useful in other portable and embedded systems,
making Microsoft OS's even less co
> For instance - the XO has been sitting there for a minute or more
> (in Terminal). I want to key in a command, so I start typing.
> Nothing changes. I do *NOT* know if my XO is alive or dead.
> Suddenly (after one or more seconds) the typed character appears on
> the screen. My XO is alive
> On first boot, it found my local School Server and up a big "Software
> Update" window popped, and said "do you want to install all these
> activities".
>
> Colour me impressed. Bravo!
>
> Now, who's coded this up? I am keen on devising a way to fetch the
> activities locally (if an XS is prese
> > As noted here before, using a multi-threaded activity interferes with power
> > management. Read Etexts will have functioning power management if
> > speech-dispatcher is not installed, but will not if it is installed, even if
> > you never use the Speech feature.
>
> I did explore a few solu
> As it turns out, the activity update control panel needs to inhibit
> suspend, too, otherwise we go to sleep in the middle of downloading
> large activities (Firefox, TamTam, etc).
>
> Chris, could you make a little wiki page explaining how to interact w/
> ohm via dbus to temporarily inhibit sus
t be there yet.
Soon, if the Python in F10 and/or OLPC is fixed, and its pygobject is
recompiled using that Python into a new binary package, and pygtk is
fixed properly, Python multithreaded programs will stop their needless
polling. We're getting very close...
John Gilmore
_
> > Have you tried with a swap partition? Swap is robust now on a
> > SD card, immune to suspend/resume and power cycle.
>
> External swap area sounds cool. How does one set it up? I'll give it a
> whirl.
Use a recent joyride. Get a throwaway 1GB SD card. Available for
$3-$20 depending where y
> I've noticed you tagging lots of tickets over the last few days for
> consideration as 8.2.0 blockers. Some of your selections make good sense
> to me, like the GPL tickets (#4265), but others make less sense to me,
> like the debuginfo packages issue (#4264), the TurtleArt naming issue
> (#5941)
> The problem with the pure hereustic approach is that there may
> be times when we don't have enough knowledge about the system state
> and more importantly the user's behaviour to really make a decision
> without information from the application. For example, if I am streaming
> music on my
> Though I agree now, as I agreed in the past, that the filter is not
> easy to use, I would say that it was a mechanism already in place
> (and the filter would not be used by an end user anyway).
Setting up the filter to wake the machine on EVERY arp packet would be
trivial. These occur pretty
> > If we have multicast wakeup working, then IPv6 takes care of itself.
>
> Waking up on all multicast traffic would not only wake up the host on
> Neighbor Solicitation messages, but also on all other multicast
> traffic the interface was listening to before suspending (e.g. mDNS
> multicast mes
> Waking up on all multicast traffic would not only wake up the host on
> Neighbor Solicitation messages, but also on all other multicast
> traffic the interface was listening to before suspending (e.g. mDNS
> multicast messages).
Sorry, I may have misinterpreted Javier's message due to his use of
Deepak,
>>> Would this be considered a blocker for 8.2 ...
(Not my call.)
>>> or do we primarilly
>>> care about collaboration in mesh mode for deployments?
Very few deployments use mesh mode, because it currently doesn't scale
up to more than about ten nearby laptops. (It's due to many intera
> Anyway, in the meantime, we have raw rpmbuild, mock (which needs to be
> configured not to use Fedora's koji, but this is not so hard), our own
> buildroot (probably hidden away somewhere on weka.laptop.org), and the
> joyride dropbox system. In conclusion, we'll live.
I got an impression that a
> Effective immediately we have replaced the CA that is in use for
> cvs.fedoraproject.org and koji.fedoraproject.org This effects uploading to
> lookaside cache and building packages.
How do we know whether the old CA or the new CA is the secure one? This
email "from Dennis" could easily be a s
Isn't it interesting how we have all this public-key infrastructure
to secure all these key projects -- but every few years we throw it all
out the window and start over -- based on insecure email messages!
> However if you don't replace the certs you will not have access to
> cvs or the buildsys
When measuring memory usage, "cat /proc/XXX/smaps" provides the most
accurate info available (as far as I know), and produces directly
comparable results in all OLPC software releases. XXX is the process
number you're examining (first column of "ps" output).
The smaps file also tells you how many
> I know I've said this before, but I really want to get some UI polish
> into this part of the system. Instead of the cryptic "AC not present"
> we should be displaying a fullscreen graphic picturing the power cord...
A better fix was implemented a while ago. In the old firmware that
caused thi
I spent a few hours tonight testing the power consumption of a G1G1 XO
under 8.2-759. I didn't test any of the tricky autosuspend/resume
stuff -- just how much power can be saved by various user actions.
Both the answers, and how you can do measurements like this on your
own XO (using the power-me
Pia,
> Am I able to make a pre-release signed image myself?
There is generally no reason to run "signed" images on your XO.
A stable, working unsigned image will run *just as well*.
The only thing a "signed" image can do is to be installed on a
lockdown machine that the user isn't free to upgra
[I posted bug #8524 re lease activation not working on AP's.]
Another mechanism that only works on Mesh is sharing "under a tree".
It's perfectly feasible for four or five kids with laptops, all
sitting under a tree, to share over ad-hoc 802.11 mode. They don't
need a mesh that forwards packets;
Ricardo Carrano said:
> There are technical challenges in the way, but OLPC should keep
> pushing this for the benefits it will bring. It seems a perfect fit
> with the Mission.
Mesh and the Marvell WiFi chip have been two of the big
disappointments of the OLPC. The mesh implementation simply doe
> The problem comes from the OLPC marketing that equates "mesh" with
> "collaboration" which in fact are two independent concepts. What the
> UI displays as "Mesh Server" should be "Collaboration Server" - it's
> only needed to mediate if the laptops who want to collaborate cannot
> talk to
> I agree with Albert's proposal - Newcomers to the Wellington test team
> open too many apps all the time - and render their machines unusable
> through memory pressure. From that experience, I like the idea of
> adding a bit of metadata that hints the mem footprint, and teaching
> sugar to preven
>> many people who would be good testers don't consider themselves 'developers'
>> so would not get them on their own.
>
> Why not call it a "tester's key"? It is principally useful for testing
> late-breaking versions.
Now that the unfortunately popular iPhone ships with the same centralized-
co
> Requesting dev keys should not be difficult! How can we fix that problem?
We could consider shipping the next G1G1 batch with developer keys
already included ("disable-security").
The only reason any G1G1 user would prefer a lockdown laptop is because
it won't do "pretty boot" if it's jailbr
ountry asks for freedom in their laptop shipments, and no G1G1 is
shipped with freedom, and thus every OLPC laptop is jailed, like every
iPhone.
John
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:34:09 -0400
From: "Walter Bender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John Gilmore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
ountry asks for freedom in their laptop shipments, and no G1G1 is
shipped with freedom, and thus every OLPC laptop is jailed, like every
iPhone.
John
Date: Wed, 1 Oct 2008 08:34:09 -0400
From: "Walter Bender" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "John Gilmore" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
I'm glad that people are trying to think of ways to improve the lot of
G1G1 users. The fundamental problem doesn't go away, though, unless
you make it go away. The plan in November's G1G1, as I understand it,
is to build in unnecessary restrictions on the people you should be
most grateful for th
> I've just noticed that release candidate 765 when fully charged tells me I
> have 2 1/2 hours of usage. This is a major concern, and something we really
What exactly is your concern?
* That the power display includes a time remaining?
* That the time remaining is wrong?
* That the time
Does anyone see any inconsistency between these statements?
> Sugar reinvents how computers can be used for education. ...
> Everything is saved automatically.
> Our goal is to make it almost impossible to lose any data.
and
> 1. YOU WILL LOSE ALL YOUR FILES. Back up personal files that
> Don't know where you have read that. The Journal is intended to give a
> better way to deal with the results of the interaction with the
> machine than a folders-based system inspired on office workers.
Please quit making the kids the guinea-pig for somebody's untested pet
theories about how to
> >> I prefer "the Sugar learning platform"
And my laundress prefers "fabric revitalization consultant".
Sugar isn't about learning. Sugar is a user interface. It draws
icons and decorations on the screen, starts and stops programs, and
lets you turn control knobs. The things Sugar competes wi
> > This could be made much easier if Sugar apps prompted the user for
> > tags when shutting down an application.
>
> Yes, I think we need to assume this model. I don't think this is
> going to break the basic paradigm of Sugar, since this prompt need
> only happen for *new* activities. Anything
How about Collaboration as project of the day?
Isn't our collaboration framework already shipped in other distros?
The problem is that few applications actually use it to allow easy
collaboration among end-users. There's probably some GUI work needed,
and some integration with each app.
If we co
Note that much of the demand for printing comes from G1G1 users, who
won't have a School Server (and are unlikely to have another Linux
machine handy).
I think the answer is probably to run the CUPS daemon when we need it,
and kill it off when we don't (a la inetd).
As with everything else, I t
> awake. The current scheme is already at its lowest it can be. Jump to
> the lowest setting and then put the cpu to sleep. Any deviation from
> that will use more juice. If you wake up the CPU to do something you
> have taken a large step backwards.
Actually, there's more we can do to save
I have to commend Marco for pursuing this initiative. I think the
only hope for the long term survival of the innovations in Sugar is to
port those innovations out into mass market Linux software.
(Currently, nobody adopts XO innovations like shared browsers and word
processors, or improved suppor
> Surely the solution for reading books is to ignore pdf
That's pretty limiting. There are more legal downloadable books
available in PDF than in any other format, about 600,000 on the
Internet Archive alone. Scanned-in paper books are still the most
popular sort. Producing text, rtf, or html
> things that I can see as possibly needed:
> hardware encryption engine (does this show up to the kernel as an
> available encryption device? (it would be handy if at least the
> development builds of the kernel enabled /proc/config.gz for all xo
> distros (including the OLPC builds) it costs a
20 >/sys/cpuidle/nslatency
cat
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Measuring and using CPU idleness in Ohm
Date: Tue, 11 Dec 2007 22:25:02 -0800
From: John Gilmore <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Before you started in on ohm, I had cherry-picked the Linus cpuidle
patches into
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ng than they do about donor privacy
or social cohesion. And they'll continue to do so until donors
ostracize any nonprofit who does this.
John Gilmore
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> If I understand things right, the possible interesting states are:
>
> - Never activated
> - Activated recently (so not looking for a renewal)
> - Activated looking for a renewal
> - Expired lease - passive kill
> - Found self in blacklist - active kill
>
And "Permanently activated" (deve
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