Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 07:14:25 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 06:12:51 UTC, Konstantin wrote: Hello, Max! Are there any news or estimates about the roadmap? I posted a note about it in a meeting summary or a blog post (can't remember where) a few weeks ago. But the short of it: in the process of revising it, I realized it needs a complete rewrite. The document we ended up with isn't what we said we wanted. The rewrite will be a high priority for me once I wrap up the DConf Online Q & A videos and get the DIP queue moving again. I'll need more input from other people, and the time that takes is never predictable, but I intend to get it published in the first quarter of this year. And for the record, it's *not* a roadmap (assuming roadmap means a step-by-step plan for language evolution). It's broader than that. The intent is to outline Walter's and Atila's current focus, their longer-term goals, and areas where contributors can direct their efforts. It's a living document that will evolve as priorities change. Thanks, Mike! I will be waiting for news!
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 14 January 2022 at 06:12:51 UTC, Konstantin wrote: Hello, Max! Are there any news or estimates about the roadmap? I posted a note about it in a meeting summary or a blog post (can't remember where) a few weeks ago. But the short of it: in the process of revising it, I realized it needs a complete rewrite. The document we ended up with isn't what we said we wanted. The rewrite will be a high priority for me once I wrap up the DConf Online Q & A videos and get the DIP queue moving again. I'll need more input from other people, and the time that takes is never predictable, but I intend to get it published in the first quarter of this year. And for the record, it's *not* a roadmap (assuming roadmap means a step-by-step plan for language evolution). It's broader than that. The intent is to outline Walter's and Atila's current focus, their longer-term goals, and areas where contributors can direct their efforts. It's a living document that will evolve as priorities change.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 23:53:46 UTC, max haughton wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 21:48:23 UTC, Konstantin wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker [...] Offtopic: Are there any plans to publish the roadmap for the language and stdlib development on wiki or elsewhere? Mike is editing it at the moment. It will probably go into the foundation Ddoc sources (Not a huge of the wiki since it's not tracked in git) Hello, Max! Are there any news or estimates about the roadmap?
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Tuesday, 12 October 2021 at 19:21:50 UTC, Ben Jones wrote: On Wednesday, 6 October 2021 at 06:23:01 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: [...] new slogan [...] want to generate controversial heat? Do it in D (DIID) (careful with there being a trademark for DiiD though) How about "from prototype to production" or something? I was reading yesterday about how both memcached and redis were originally written in scripting languages and then rewritten in C for performance. Kinda like this one
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Tuesday, 19 October 2021 at 16:17:43 UTC, Andrea Fontana wrote: On Wednesday, 6 October 2021 at 06:23:01 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: [...] new slogan [...] want to generate controversial heat? Do it in D (DIID) (careful with there being a trademark for DiiD though) You mean: Just D it That's awesome! using that as my discord status now.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Wednesday, 6 October 2021 at 06:23:01 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: [...] new slogan [...] want to generate controversial heat? Do it in D (DIID) (careful with there being a trademark for DiiD though) You mean: Just D it
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On 01.10.21 14:32, Mike Parker wrote: Walter would like to establish a new slogan, or tagline, for D. Gettin' it Done. (Enunciated like Doom's "Rip and tear until it is done.")
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Wednesday, 6 October 2021 at 06:23:01 UTC, WebFreak001 wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: [...] new slogan [...] want to generate controversial heat? Do it in D (DIID) (careful with there being a trademark for DiiD though) How about "from prototype to production" or something? I was reading yesterday about how both memcached and redis were originally written in scripting languages and then rewritten in C for performance.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On 10/3/21 2:24 PM, James Blachly wrote: > Cons: Potential association with silicon valley phrase "move fast and > break things". I am going off-topic but I feel I have to make a correction there. As a person who worked and lived in Silicon Valley since 1996 (since 1994 in the greater Bay Area), I can safely claim that that phrase has never been a Silicon Valley phrase. It was used by Facebook in their less enlightened days (a business that may arguably be associated with Silicon Valley by their postal address). Ali
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Monday, 4 October 2021 at 15:44:11 UTC, Ki Rill wrote: About (1): I've written some C++ code recently. I was very happy with the code. I've read the code multiple times in search for potential bugs and errors. I decided to rewrite some of the code in D just to see the difference code-wise and performance-wise. Guess what happened? It didn't compile. I got out-of-bounds access error in D meanwhile the C++ version ran happily with no sign of any failure. That's a classic with C++ and static arrays. C++ now has the STL array which is standard now but who cares because not many know about it and there so many ways to do the same things in C++ you get lost. Also, it's ugly. In the case for D, I think D is a "sky is the limit" kind of language. D handles so many different areas, from low level to rather high level quite nicely. However, this together with one of the best metaprogramming out there, the versatility of the language is really among the highest. Now, the metaprogramming in C++ is just as powerful but not many people can handle it and they tend to avoid more complicated solutions. With D, metaprogramming is much more approachable and tasks that the programmer was unable to do in C++ can be done in D relatively easy.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Monday, 4 October 2021 at 15:44:11 UTC, Ki Rill wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: [...] These are great news! As for the new slogan, I believe we need to put some emphasis on D's modelling power. If I come up with something decent, I'll post it. [...] Very curious what code that was.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: [...] These are great news! As for the new slogan, I believe we need to put some emphasis on D's modelling power. If I come up with something decent, I'll post it. Meanwhile: (1) Reliable, fast. (2) Safe, not strict. (3) Smooth start, deploy. (1) - "no" unexpected surprises, improved memory safety, easy to catch bugs such as trying to index a pointer in a @safe function, out-of-bounds array write/read and similar; an almost instantaneous compilation, performance similar to that of C/C++. (2) - continuing from (1), it's @safe, but you make the final choice how far you want to go. (3) - it's "relatively" easy to start a new project in D using DUB: `dub init/add/run`. Need a library that's not available in DUB? Create a D interface to C header file and use it. There are tools that can automate this process, etc. I put "..." because it's not always the case. About (1): I've written some C++ code recently. I was very happy with the code. I've read the code multiple times in search for potential bugs and errors. I decided to rewrite some of the code in D just to see the difference code-wise and performance-wise. Guess what happened? It didn't compile. I got out-of-bounds access error in D meanwhile the C++ version ran happily with no sign of any failure.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Sunday, 3 October 2021 at 21:24:31 UTC, James Blachly wrote: Cons: Could be open to criticism that garbage collected language is not "the future," but this would likely be a tiny number of detractors. It seems like D itself is moving away from GC everywhere too.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker [...] I don't have a slogan in mind. But it would be nice if it could capture the plasticity of the language somehow
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On 10/1/21 8:32 AM, Mike Parker wrote: Walter would like to establish a new slogan, or tagline, for D. He asked us all to think about this for a future meeting. (Ali has since solicited some good advice from a relative who is a professional marketer that has gotten us on the right track.) 1. "Move fast" Pros: More succinct than "Write fast code, fast" or whatever the old slogan was. Still captures the essence of both speed of execution and ease of writing. Potential tie-in to D-Rocket logo. Cons: Potential association with silicon valley phrase "move fast and break things". 2. "Future code" Pros: Association with the idea that we are often at the leading edge of new features which are later incorporated into other languages. May also carry the implication that D is great language for the reader to learn in the future. Potential tie-in to space and mars theme. Cons: Could be open to criticism that garbage collected language is not "the future," but this would likely be a tiny number of detractors. ... As always, if anyone has anything they'd like me to put on the meeting agenda, please let me know beforehand. I don't know for sure if we'll be able to fit anything onto this month's meeting, though. These meetings can run long if the industry reps have anything big to discuss, and we're going to have a major item on the foundation's agenda that I expect will consume most of post-industry portion of the meeting (`-preview=in`). But if you have something, I'll see what I can do. Thanks for doing these writeups as community liaison.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Saturday, 2 October 2021 at 08:48:10 UTC, Konstantin wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 23:53:46 UTC, max haughton wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 21:48:23 UTC, Konstantin wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker [...] Offtopic: Are there any plans to publish the roadmap for the language and stdlib development on wiki or elsewhere? Mike is editing it at the moment. It will probably go into the foundation Ddoc sources (Not a huge of the wiki since it's not tracked in git) Thank you, Max! Do I understand correctly, that roadmap section will be available at https://dlang.org/foundation/index.html Most likely, but we will get it on the home page as well so it can't be missed.
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 23:53:46 UTC, max haughton wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 21:48:23 UTC, Konstantin wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker [...] Offtopic: Are there any plans to publish the roadmap for the language and stdlib development on wiki or elsewhere? Mike is editing it at the moment. It will probably go into the foundation Ddoc sources (Not a huge of the wiki since it's not tracked in git) Thank you, Max! Do I understand correctly, that roadmap section will be available at https://dlang.org/foundation/index.html
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: new slogan feature X ? D got it yesterday!
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 21:48:23 UTC, Konstantin wrote: On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker [...] Offtopic: Are there any plans to publish the roadmap for the language and stdlib development on wiki or elsewhere? Mike is editing it at the moment. It will probably go into the foundation Ddoc sources (Not a huge of the wiki since it's not tracked in git)
Re: D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
On Friday, 1 October 2021 at 12:32:20 UTC, Mike Parker wrote: Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker [...] Offtopic: Are there any plans to publish the roadmap for the language and stdlib development on wiki or elsewhere?
D Language Foundation Monthly Meeting Summary (September 24, 2021)
Attendees: Andrei Alexandrescu Walter Bright Iain Buclaw Ali Çehreli Max Haughton Martin Kinkelin Mathias Lang Razvan Nitu Mike Parker (Átila Neves was on vacation in an area with limited internet access) The primary item on the agenda for this meeting was a governance proposal from Mathias Lang. Modeled on [Python's PEP 13](https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0013/), the proposal was to establish a self-governing Core Team (CT) of unlimited size, and a five-member Steering Committee (SC) elected annually by the CT. The CT would take on all management and decision-making responsibilities, subject to veto by the SC. The proposal set out a basic set of procedures and responsibilities for each team, including the establishment of Working Groups within the core team to focus on specific areas (i.e., compiler development, dub, DIPs, etc.). We spent the majority of the meeting discussing the pros and cons of such a structure. Among the points discussed, a major pro and a major con stand out: formalizing governance can potentially bring more order and structure to the day-to-day management of the language and the ecosystem (pro); there's a risk of Walter and being pushed out of the decision making process (con). In the end, we agreed that some sort of formalized committee that brings more order to the ecosystem is worth pursuing, but that decisions regarding development of the language should be left in the hands of Walter and Átila. Given that membership in the monthly meetings has expanded over time, and the quarterly meetings include industry reps using D in production, we already have a skeleton of the Core Team outlined in Mathias's proposal. Mathias agreed to go back to the drawing board and draft a new proposal that is smaller in scope and better suited to the size of our community. The goal is to take what we already have and formalize a process for organizing work on priority tasks, managing resources, drafting volunteers, etc., (in other words, a team that can manage the ecosystem), while leaving language design decisions to Walter and Átila. I will assist Mathias in drawing up the proposal and we will present it at a future foundation meeting (I anticipate November). A topic that came up in course of the discussion was pull requests blocking on feedback from Walter or Átila. As a remedy, Razvan will be sending periodic updates to them with a list of PRs that require their feedback. Walter is also open to once- or twice-month-meetings with contributors to resolve pull-requests through in-person discussion. We agreed to establish a page on dlang.org that lists the core team members so there's no doubt who is involved in the management process. Walter would like to establish a new slogan, or tagline, for D. He asked us all to think about this for a future meeting. (Ali has since solicited some good advice from a relative who is a professional marketer that has gotten us on the right track.) Our next meeting will take place on October 22nd at 13:00 UTC. This will be a quarterly meeting, so the industry reps will be present. As always, if anyone has anything they'd like me to put on the meeting agenda, please let me know beforehand. I don't know for sure if we'll be able to fit anything onto this month's meeting, though. These meetings can run long if the industry reps have anything big to discuss, and we're going to have a major item on the foundation's agenda that I expect will consume most of post-industry portion of the meeting (`-preview=in`). But if you have something, I'll see what I can do.
