Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 23:34:56 +0100, Nick Sabalausky seewebsitetocontac...@semitwist.com wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100 Regan Heath re...@netmail.co.nz wrote: I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and click an error to jump to it's line in the source. And I've never had it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources, ever. Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Fri, 14 Jun 2013 23:34:56 +0100, Nick Sabalausky seewebsitetocontac...@semitwist.com wrote: click an error to jump to it's line in the source. Is there a hotkey for this? .. it's little things like having a configurable hotkey (so I can make it F4 like in MSVC that make or break a new IDE/editor IMO). R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-17 10:39, Regan Heath wrote: Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO. I have that in TextMate :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Jacob Carlborg, el 17 de June a las 12:42 me escribiste: On 2013-06-17 10:39, Regan Heath wrote: Oh, yes, the ability to capture the compiler output and do a bit of a parse and jump to error is another top IDE feature IMO. I have that in TextMate :) Same in VIM. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- You can try the best you can If you try the best you can The best you can is good enough
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-14 23:09, Leandro Lucarella wrote: Yes, I know. BTW, how many people is using it (if any)? If some could share the experience it would be appreciated. I use it :). My experience so far is if you don't take advantage of these buffers it can be a bit annoying. The reason is that most functions either return T[] or const(T)[]. If you use string in the rest of your code you cannot easily store a returned value to a string variable. I guess some of those could be fixed by returning inout(T)[] instead. Otherwise I think it's working good. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-13 22:12, Don wrote: Must not be worse than Notepad. g I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point. I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy. Give Sublime a try. D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three working on IDEs. We need a couple more. And that's really all I'm saying. I agree. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-13 22:42, Walter Bright wrote: May I present MicroEmacs: https://github.com/DigitalMars/med Only Linux and Windows support? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-13 21:39, Peter Alexander wrote: The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line. LLDB uses a far more consistent and logical structured commands than GDB. Although it doesn't support D. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-13 22:18, Jonathan M Davis wrote: The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical debuggers out of the water in terms of power. It would probably be best if the two could be properly combined so that all of stuff that does better graphically is done in a proper graphical debugger, but you have a command-line interface integrated into it for the more advanced stuff. You can at least sort of get that with some front-ends to gdb, but their graphical portion is never as good as it should be IMHO. Visual Studio definitely wins in that area. All graphical debuggers I have used (Eclipse, Xcode) are using GDB or LLDB as a backend. They all provide a command line for entering commands directly. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-14 07:48, Johannes Pfau wrote: Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? I found this quite useful when debugging unit test failures related to floating point code in gdc. info float shows the contents of the floating point stack, status register and control register. I know gdb is scriptable with python but I never used that. Batch execution of commands is especially nice when used with dustmite (https://github.com/CyberShadow/DustMite/wiki/Detecting-a-specific-segfault). LLDB is pretty advanced as well. The biggest benefit there is the integration with the compiler. I've watched some of the WWDC videos and you can do pretty cool stuff. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote: I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call an IDE though. I think now some of our guys are using Geany moderately successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC, the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files (files that made the IDE crash consistently). I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are quite behind (at least in Linux). I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable. If that's your requirements then you don't need an IDE, just an editor with syntax highlighting for D. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 22:30:25 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical debuggers out of the water in terms of power. What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.) The only thing that GDB can do that Visual Studio does not offer is a REPL like environment for C and C++ code. Visual Studio immediate window only supports managed languages properly. Everything else, VS wins hands down, specially when debugging data structures (thanks to visualizers) or multithreading/parallel code. -- Paulo
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 22:30:25 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote: What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't? Not trying to troll, I'm genuinely curious. I googled for advanced gdb tricks to try and find some of the more advanced stuff, but it was all simple things that Visual Studio does (printing variables, disassembling, casting memory to arbitrary types, pretty printing STL containers, conditional/data breakpoints, running commands on hit breakpoints etc.) Does Visual Studio debugger have some sort of scripts/macros? When I was in a small kernel dev related team, we had a lot of own utility macros for gdb to help debug kernel core dumps, especially for messy cases like stack corruption.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-13 16:44, Leandro Lucarella wrote: I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call an IDE though. I think now some of our guys are using Geany moderately successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC, the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files (files that made the IDE crash consistently). I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are quite behind (at least in Linux). I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable. I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of what's wrong with D's IDEs. And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Have finally watched it. Great talk and good jokes! :) One topic I'd like to hear more about is memory management techniques. It was told that only very small amount of garbage is generated and managed by GC, most code avoids heap allocations at all. Is this somehow enforced (tooling, code review, etc.) or simply judged by a common sense? Is keeping such restriction easier in D1 than in D2?
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 05:48:17 UTC, Johannes Pfau wrote: Am Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:30:24 +0200 schrieb Peter Alexander peter.alexander...@gmail.com: What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't? Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? Yes, Debug-Windows-Registers. A window with all the register values in it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:55 UTC, Dicebot wrote: Does Visual Studio debugger have some sort of scripts/macros? When I was in a small kernel dev related team, we had a lot of own utility macros for gdb to help debug kernel core dumps, especially for messy cases like stack corruption. Yeah, you can script VS, although I haven't used it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 11:40 PM, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-13 22:42, Walter Bright wrote: May I present MicroEmacs: https://github.com/DigitalMars/med Only Linux and Windows support? Others are trivially added if anyone cares.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote: On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable. I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of what's wrong with D's IDEs. And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable. What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable? That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so that they could suggest stable editors that had those features. If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are not good choices.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Friday, June 14, 2013 10:05:27 Peter Alexander wrote: On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 07:40:42 UTC, Don wrote: On Friday, 14 June 2013 at 06:49:08 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: I agree. But he said at the end of the talk that he didn't want codecompletion refactoring or anything like that. Now he said he just wants something better than Notepad that is stable. I don't know what's going on here, somehow people are consistently misunderstanding me. The question in the talk was along the lines of what's wrong with D's IDEs. And people expected the problem was that they don't have good refactoring support or something. But the problem is much more severe: Mono-D is not as good as Notepad. EclipseD is not as good as Notepad. Because they are unstable. What we're not understanding is that, if you don't want refactoring, or intellisense, or any of that stuff then why not just use notepad, emacs, vim etc.? Surely those are stable? That's why people were asking what you wanted from the IDE, so that they could suggest stable editors that had those features. If you don't want lots of features then Mono-D and EclipseD are not good choices. I don't think that it's that he doesn't want them. It's that they don't matter until the IDE is stable enough that it doesn't crash. If it crashes, it doesn't matter what else it can do. But once it's stable enough that it doesn't crash and you can actually use it, _then_ you can discuss what other cool features it should have. Until then, it's worse than notepad. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 19:49:09 +0100, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote: What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature. I could go either way with intellisense. Sometimes I need a hand remembering what I'm doing, but mostly I'm just fine. What bugs me more is using an editor with no F1 - go to documentation for this function or no F12 - take me to the definition of this symbol. Those are invaluable - providing the help system doesn't take 10 years to load I'm looking at you (all versions of MSVC post 6). R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 20:39:17 +0100, Peter Alexander peter.alexander...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote: What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature. The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line. Agreed 100% - totally forgot about integrated debugging it's probably my #1 feature. Intellisense is a definite must, and proper intellisense, i.e. actually shows me what members a variable has, and not just some crappy lookup in the current file for potential members. Needs to work with templates, macros etc. as well. Meh, I could go either way on this, provided I have.. Go to definition and Find all references are must haves as well. Again, they need to work properly, not just some half-assed grep script that throws up lots of false positives. Again, needs to work with templates, macros, etc. These are essential, my #2/3 features. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 21:12:31 +0100, Don turnyourkidsintoc...@nospam.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:35:08 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan grogan.co...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don turnyourkidsintoc...@nospam.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. ... R How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it... Or, a plugin for an existing editor. Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way. All good ideas. What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability, Must not be worse than Notepad. g I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point. Ok.. but that doesn't give ppl anything to aim for as a starting point.. I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy. So you write all your code using copy con? :p So, you use vi? D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three working on IDEs. We need a couple more. And that's really all I'm saying. Valid point, but to get more people interested I think we need a concrete goal and/or a list of faults with the existing competition. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Dicebot, el 14 de June a las 09:46 me escribiste: Have finally watched it. Great talk and good jokes! :) One topic I'd like to hear more about is memory management techniques. It was told that only very small amount of garbage is generated and managed by GC, most code avoids heap allocations at all. Is this somehow enforced (tooling, code review, etc.) or simply judged by a common sense? I would say is enforced by reality. If we have a leak we find out sooner than later. Of course, having that experience people is extra careful when coding now about those issues. We are starting to implement code review as the team gets bigger, which also help to detect these problems earlier. Is keeping such restriction easier in D1 than in D2? Yes, but is because of Tango, not D1. Almost every function that needs to allocate takes an optional buffer to work on (and for the ones that didn't we wrote replacements that used this scheme). That makes the programmer automatically aware of this buffer reusing. I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to completely avoid phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation. We even sometimes reuse exceptions to avoid allocating when something throws. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- Todos en el mundo somos grasas, no hago distinción de sexo y raza, sólo que algunos lo disfrutan y otros no pueden evitarlo.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-14 15:37, Leandro Lucarella wrote: I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to completely avoid phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation. Tango is available for D2 as well :) -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Jacob Carlborg, el 14 de June a las 16:18 me escribiste: On 2013-06-14 15:37, Leandro Lucarella wrote: I think, same as Manu said, if/when we were to move to D2 we'll have to completely avoid phobos unless a similar approach is taken in terms of memory allocation. Tango is available for D2 as well :) Yes, I know. BTW, how many people is using it (if any)? If some could share the experience it would be appreciated. But anyway, the point is, it would be nice to be able to use the standard library and it would be nice if the standard library could cover the use case of people that can afford to have a lot of heap activity. It doesn't seem to be a very specific use case, at least not for commercial use, at least is the impression I got in the conference. -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- CHINO ATRAPA COTORRAS -- Crónica TV
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 11:48:52 +0100 Regan Heath re...@netmail.co.nz wrote: I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. I've been using Programmer's Notepad 2 (for *all* my development for the past few years), which is *mostly* a syntax highlighting editor, but also has a concept of projects, configurable tools, and click an error to jump to it's line in the source. And I've never had it crash or get wonky, or slowdown, or stall, or use a lot of resources, ever. (It also supports ctags, although I've never used it.)
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Great talk, good to see someone talking about their real-world experience with D and Don kept it entertaining. A quibble though: the title is horrible, as the talk has very little to do with metaprogramming, and those who aren't interested in the current title will just skip the talk. A better, more accurate title and description might take it from the fourth-most viewed video to the most popular video, of those released so far.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Basically just syntax highlighting. Most code editors support D these days. I also can't believe that just because an editor has support for D syntax highlighting will introduce more bugs. So is he saying that all editors are bad and crash? I mostly use TextMate (Mac OS X only) when coding D. Having support for D certainly doesn't make it crash more. There are one or two problems with TextMate but that has nothing to do with D and are easily avoidable. It has crashed once or twice for me but not that many times that it's worth bring up like this. Sublime Text is also a good text editor, available on Mac OS X, Linux and Windows. It's fast and stable as far as I'm aware. -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:31:04 UTC, Don wrote: Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. What IDEs are crashing for you? Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't think it has ever crashed.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote: Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't think it has ever crashed. I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or emacs :) Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but that is somewhat different story.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:16:56 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote: Visual Studio constantly crashes for me at work, and I can imagine MonoDevelop and Eclipse being similar, but simpler editors like Sublime Text, TextMate, vim, emacs etc. shouldn't crash. I've been using Sublime Text for years now and I don't think it has ever crashed. I am quite surprised to hear this is an issue at all btw. Neither Mono-D nor Eclipse DDT have never crashed for me on my smallish sources. And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or emacs :) Mono-D has had update issues thanks to MonoDevelop upstream but that is somewhat different story. Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup...
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote: Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup... That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. http://www.sublimetext.com/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 08:25:19 UTC, Dicebot wrote: And I just can't imagine D syntax highlighting crashing vim or emacs :) The syntax highlighting has actually bogged down vim for me in the past. I had a file with a large array in it (hundreds of lines), and scrolling over those lines caused vim to stutter at about 1fps.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don turnyourkidsintoc...@nospam.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. ... R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote: Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which IDE's are crashing. Have you used Sublime, does that crash? -- /Jacob Carlborg
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 07:31:04 UTC, Don wrote: Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. Link to bug reports?
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 12:33:03 UTC, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. Andrei Awesome talk, really inspiring. Great to see a D a success in commercial environment. I would love to make a switch to D already (from C++), learning it now, following all the updates and waiting for ARM support. Can't wait! I mean it, I actually miss not being able to switch now :P
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote: Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup... https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;) It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect IDE maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 12:39:49 UTC, Dicebot wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote: Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup... https://github.com/aBothe/Mono-D/issues?state=open ;) It does sound like a serious problem but I can hardly expect IDE maintainers to fix such stuff without having a bug reports. Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than compiler bugs. Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using them. Not commercially.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 13:22:23 UTC, Don wrote: Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: at the moment, IDE bugs are much, much worse than compiler bugs. Those IDEs are in an alpha state at best. They are not in a state where you can just submit bug reports but keep using them. Not commercially. I have not yet managed to watch the talk (queued!), just noticed the comment that got my attention :( Sorry about that. My point is - they are stable enough so that you may not even encounter a crash for months or more unless you start using on some real code base extensively. No way it can be improved without bug reports. I don't ask you to use them - just check time to time and file issues found. Isn't it how mainstream D development works? The fact that Mono-D currently has _zero_ crash bugs reported open is really surprising to me given comments in this thread. Judging by my experience Alex is a very responsive guy when it comes to fixing/tweaking Mono-D but he will need some details for sure.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Wed, 12 Jun 2013 13:20:30 -0400, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Steven Schveighoffer wrote: But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you can pay for it. Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs renting. Right, but my point is, if you don't sell, there is no financial windfall/loss. If you can afford to ride out the low period, you most likely will break even or make money when you do sell. Home prices pretty much are consistent, and go in cycles. Almost no houses go down to 0, and traditionally, the value goes up with inflation. It's normally a pretty safe place to store your net worth. it was an educated choice. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat the success consistently. The funny thing is, I'm not in home ownership to make money. I've lost about half of what I made on the previous sale, if I sold today. But I don't care. I just want a house to live in :) The thing I see as a large barrier to home ownership is the down payment. If you can get into home ownership, at a good time when prices are low, then you are set pretty much forever. But you have to have that large initial investment. Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks, but you have to have the right goal. -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don turnyourkidsintoc...@nospam.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. ... R How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it...
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Jacob Carlborg, el 13 de June a las 13:07 me escribiste: On 2013-06-13 09:31, Don wrote: Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. We have no chance of fixing anything if you don't tell us which IDE's are crashing. I've always use VIM without any problems. Is not what you typically call an IDE though. I think now some of our guys are using Geany moderately successfully, for sure much better than Ecplise and Mono plugins. IIRC, the main problem with those huge IDEs were memory usage and death-files (files that made the IDE crash consistently). I think there a lot of working advanced editors for D, but IDEs are quite behind (at least in Linux). -- Leandro Lucarella (AKA luca) http://llucax.com.ar/ -- GPG Key: 5F5A8D05 (F8CD F9A7 BF00 5431 4145 104C 949E BFB6 5F5A 8D05) -- TIGRE SE COMIO A EMPLEADO DE CIRCO: DETUVIERON A DUEÑO Y DOMADOR -- Crónica TV
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan grogan.co...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don turnyourkidsintoc...@nospam.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. ... R How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it... Or, a plugin for an existing editor. Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way. All good ideas. What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability, in other words trying to define the goal posts to work towards. R -- Using Opera's revolutionary email client: http://www.opera.com/mail/
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 2:19 AM, Peter Alexander wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote: Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup... That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks, I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a mouse click. Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a major amount of work. Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack of 30 or more papers you gotta sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a major amount of record keeping - especially if you make any capital improvements.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote: Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar panels. :p Ali
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:53:38 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Back in the bad old DOS days, there were many code editors that worked instantly. No perceptible delays at all. I find it ironic that today, with machines 1000 times faster, some vendors consider it acceptable to have 15 second delays. Indeed. Software responsiveness is my #1 pet peeve with just about all software. If a video game can simulate physics, render millions of triangles, stream multiple channels of audio, and process game logic and AI in under 16ms then your crappy text editor can at least have the decency to put a character on the screen when I press a key without having to wait multiple seconds. From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 10 seconds to start up before I can start entering commands. People just don't care anymore. In 1977, when Alan Kay was describing DynaBook (basically, the iPad) he said: There should be no discernible pause between cause and effect. One of the metaphors we used when designing such a system was that of a musical instrument, such as a flute, which is owned by its user and responds instantly and consistently to its owner's wishes. Imagine the absurdity of a one-second delay between blowing a note and hearing it! http://www.vpri.org/pdf/m1977001_dynamedia.pdf 35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the absurdity isn't imaginary.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:00:26 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote: 35 years later and we now have the device he described, but the absurdity isn't imaginary. The ipad amazes me. Not only is it brutally slow, but it crashes... a lot (the ipad 1 anyway, i've never seen the newer ones). Yet Apple has a reputation for quality. Maybe it is because their crashes just reset the device rather than giving an error message so people don't know whom to blame! idk. Another slow, unstable device? The playstation 3. The games themselves run ok, but turning it on and switching apps on that home screen is just atrocious.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 10:36:11 Ali Çehreli wrote: On 06/13/2013 06:22 AM, Don wrote: Guys, this wasn't even part of the talk. The point I made in the talk is: Judging from most of the posts on this thread, your talk was about solar panels. :p LOL. Yeah. That and the housing market. The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :( - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 13:33:26 -0400, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 6/13/2013 6:58 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Home ownership is much simpler than playing with stocks, I have to strongly disagree about that. Buying/selling a stock is a mouse click. Tax accounting is a one liner. Buying/selling a house is a major amount of work. Heck, even once you have a deal, you have a stack of 30 or more papers you gotta sign. Dealing with the taxes on it is a major amount of record keeping - especially if you make any capital improvements. I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead. Sheesh, so much literalism here :) -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 11:00 AM, Peter Alexander wrote: From a cold boot, the terminal I use, iTerm, can take upwards of 10 seconds to start up before I can start entering commands. The perennial problem with JITs.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:27:11 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :( In my defense, Andrei did say to try to drive discussion on the social channels, so I posted my more on-topic comments to Reddit.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 2:22 AM, Peter Alexander wrote: The syntax highlighting has actually bogged down vim for me in the past. I had a file with a large array in it (hundreds of lines), and scrolling over those lines caused vim to stutter at about 1fps. Back in the Bad Old DOS days, I had trouble with that with my text editor. The solution was to implement cooperative multitasking, where the computation of the display was disconnected from the command processing. The display computation would regularly check to see if it was obsolete, and start over if it was. Command handling always preempted. It worked like a champ, making the editor nice and crisp.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote: What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead. Sheesh, so much literalism here :) I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an SP 500 index stock, like SPY. It's: 1. trivial to buy and sell - a couple clicks 2. liquid - sell and get your money within minutes 3. trivial to borrow against - just write a check - no papers to sign 4. globally internationalized 5. fairly inflation proof 6. long term gains are fairly reliable 7. you can space out incremental sales in order to avoid a one-time boost into a high tax bracket 8. you instantly know exactly what it's worth A house: 1. hard to buy and sell 2. selling can easily be a year long process to get your money 3. hard to borrow against - need appraisals, approvals, piles of paperwork 4. it's literally nailed to one spot. location location location - bet wrong on that, and the economy will easily pass you by 5. reasonably inflation proof 6. long term gains again depend on location, location, location 7. no income averaging on a big gain 8. you never know what it's worth until you have a signed deed of sale, in fact, its value can vary tremendously (+-30%) depending on who happens to be looking for a house like yours. Zillows has only a vague connection to reality, and is only really useful if you have a cookie cutter house in a cookie cutter subdivision. Yes, I own my home. But it blows as an easy, predictable investment. You're not going to get a big score investing in SPY. But if you have a regular schedule of investing in it, over the long term, it's very very likely you'll be just fine.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 20:29:34 Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:27:11 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: The actual talk has had very little discussion here. :( In my defense, Andrei did say to try to drive discussion on the social channels, so I posted my more on-topic comments to Reddit. Well, the fact that other discussions popped up isn't necessarily a problem. It's just a pity that there's been so little discussion about the talk itself. There wasn't a ton of talk in reddit either, but there was definitely quite a bit more there than here. I feel particularly sorry for Stefan Rohe's talk though. The _only_ comment that it got on reddit was Walter's post for the abstract. It's gotten more discussion here though. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote: What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature. The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line. Intellisense is a definite must, and proper intellisense, i.e. actually shows me what members a variable has, and not just some crappy lookup in the current file for potential members. Needs to work with templates, macros etc. as well. Go to definition and Find all references are must haves as well. Again, they need to work properly, not just some half-assed grep script that throws up lots of false positives. Again, needs to work with templates, macros, etc. Basically, if the intellisense doesn't use a complete parser and semantic analyser then it probably isn't up to scratch.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:10:06 -0400, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 6/13/2013 11:25 AM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I meant much simpler to predict/easier to come out ahead. Sheesh, so much literalism here :) I'm going to disagree with that one, too! Consider an SP 500 index stock, like SPY. It's: If you want to compare ONE SPECIFIC stock to ALL POSSIBLE HOUSES, yes I'm sure we can find some examples in your favor. Shall I respond by comparing ALL POSSIBLE STOCKS against a town whose houses have gained value for the last 50 years? -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 16:35:08 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 15:32:03 +0100, Colin Grogan grogan.co...@gmail.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 10:48:52 UTC, Regan Heath wrote: On Thu, 13 Jun 2013 08:31:03 +0100, Don turnyourkidsintoc...@nospam.com wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 06:58:22 UTC, Jacob Carlborg wrote: On 2013-06-11 14:33, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. I really don't understand the problem with IDE. He mentions that he's not interested in any autocompletion, refactoring or anything like that. Actually not. I'm just opposed to any work on them right now. The point is that all of those things are COMPLETELY WORTHLESS if the IDE crashes. It's not just a bug. It's an absolute showstopper, and I'm begging the community to do something about it. Fix the crashes, and then we can talk. I use Notepad++ now and have used TextPad in the past. But, those are just text editors with syntax highlighting (fairly flexibly and simply customisable highlighting BTW). What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, I am thinking of features which go beyond the basic concept of a text editor, such as: - The concept of a 'project' or some other collection of source files which can be loaded/displayed in some fashion to make it easier to find/select/edit individual files - The ability to hook in 'tools' to key presses like compile executing dmd ... or similar. ... R How about a GUI front end to vibe-d's dub? I use that extensively on command line and find it very good, I imagine it would be easy enough write a GUI for it... Or, a plugin for an existing editor. Or, a 'tool' configured in an existing editor to run dub in a certain way. All good ideas. What I'm driving at here is trying to find Don's minimal requirements beyond stability, Must not be worse than Notepad. g I don't have any requirements. I *only* care about stability at this point. I'm not personally looking for an IDE. I'm more a command line guy. D has fifty people contributing to the compiler, but only two or three working on IDEs. We need a couple more. And that's really all I'm saying.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, June 13, 2013 21:39:17 Peter Alexander wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 18:49:14 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/13/2013 3:48 AM, Regan Heath wrote: What are the basic features you would require of a development environment, People tell me that intellisense is the #1 feature. The debugger is the #1 feature I'd miss from my day job if I didn't use Visual Studio. Feature wise, I'm sure gdb has most if not all VS has, but in VS everything is just there in front of you, easily usable (you don't need to consult the manual, or remember archaic commands). Using gdb vs. Visual Studio feels like trying to do web browsing via the command line. The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical debuggers out of the water in terms of power. It would probably be best if the two could be properly combined so that all of stuff that does better graphically is done in a proper graphical debugger, but you have a command-line interface integrated into it for the more advanced stuff. You can at least sort of get that with some front-ends to gdb, but their graphical portion is never as good as it should be IMHO. Visual Studio definitely wins in that area. - Jonathan M Davis
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/13/2013 1:12 PM, Don wrote: Must not be worse than Notepad. g May I present MicroEmacs: https://github.com/DigitalMars/med
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 13/06/13 19:19, Peter Alexander wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote: Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup... That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. http://www.sublimetext.com/ Geany works well for me. Syntax highlighting and a symbols navigation sidebar. Plus there is a customizable snippets facility (e.g. type class hit TAB and you get the shell of a class formatted how you like it, etc) if you like that type of thing. I believe that it's available for Linux, Mac and Windows. Peter PS On the subject of snippets, does any one know how to get a D specific .gitignore added to github's new repo interface? Currently, I just ask for the C one but D not being in the list of offerings makes it look like a second class language.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:19:33 UTC, Peter Alexander wrote: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 09:06:00 UTC, Don wrote: Mono-D and Eclipse DDT both have major problems with long pauses while typing (eg 15 seconds unresponsive) and crashes. Both of them even have modules of death where just viewing the file will cause a crash. If you're unlucky enough to get one of those open in your default workspace file, the IDE will crash at startup... That doesn't surprise me. I really do highly recommend Sublime Text. It was created by a former game dev, and he really, really cares about performance. I've opened binary files in it that are hundreds of megs and it doesn't even flinch. Just loads it up, and then you can scroll through it or jump around at full speed with no pauses or momentary glitches. I can't recommend it highly enough. http://www.sublimetext.com/ Very good editor, but as of stability, this isn't the best? I ca, make it crash quite easily. However, ti is really fast, including recovery after crash.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Am Fri, 14 Jun 2013 00:30:24 +0200 schrieb Peter Alexander peter.alexander...@gmail.com: On Thursday, 13 June 2013 at 20:19:06 UTC, Jonathan M Davis wrote: The differences between a graphical debugger and gdb are fairly interesting in that all the basic stuff is just way easier and more pleasant in a graphical debugger, but gdb has all kinds of advanced stuff that tends to blow graphical debuggers out of the water in terms of power. What can gdb do in particular that Visual Studio can't? Can the visual studio debugger show the contents of registers? I found this quite useful when debugging unit test failures related to floating point code in gdc. info float shows the contents of the floating point stack, status register and control register. I know gdb is scriptable with python but I never used that. Batch execution of commands is especially nice when used with dustmite (https://github.com/CyberShadow/DustMite/wiki/Detecting-a-specific-segfault).
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years! Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups. Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs. That's not correct. Almost all manufacturers provide a 20 or 30 year warranty. Warranty periods have been slowing increasing as the industry has gained field experience. I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails. That's true for certain kinds of dopants (it's particularly true if you have copper involved), but dopant migration is not an issue for any commercial solar modules that I know of. (The situation may be different for exotic technologies). This is because solar cells are very simple devices, they're just enormous diodes. Virtually all solar module failures in the field are caused by mechanical issues (bad solder joints, cracks, delamination), not by semiconductor degradation. PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight. They do. Still not as hot as a CPU though! Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking. Most of these problems were solved in the 80's. We were continuously doing accelerated lifetime testing of our own modules and ones from various manufacturers. Temperature cycling, humidity freeze, hail impact testing (that's fun), wind load testing (that's really fun), etc. For some silicon modules you can get oxygen-boron complexes induced by UV, which causes a slow reduction in power, but our modules survived 200 years equivalent UVB exposure with no degradation whatsoever. Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years. That one is definitely true. Even worse is batteries for off-grid systems, batteries have a very short lifetime.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/13 11:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote: I just want to point out that owning a home is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As always, caveat emptor. I'd say it's historically about as risky as owning stocks. The main difference is that the house has a utility value - you can't live in a stock. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 06/11/2013 09:33 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. Andrei Great talk!!! Can't wait for faster CTFE, the new orange serialization library would benefit from it. --jm
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/12/2013 1:04 AM, Don wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:02:29 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Note that none of the advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs. That's not correct. Almost all manufacturers provide a 20 or 30 year warranty. Warranty periods have been slowing increasing as the industry has gained field experience. Warranty is not the same as expected life, MTBF, etc. Anyhow, thanks for weighing in with a great post!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 06/11/2013 08:59 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 23:36:11 -0400, Jesse Phillips jesse.k.phillip...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:55:48 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: ...and if you sell it, unless you own multiple houses, you're now homeless. And housing prices are up, so getting a new house will erase the gains you got from selling the old house! So I don't think raising property values makes me wealthier at all. But when housing cost goes up the government can take more from you on anything based on your wealth. Just because you can't pay because your wealth is all chewed up in material things like a house, who cares! In the US at least, only home sales (or transfers of ownership, like inheritance) are taxed. As long as you live there, they will not (and I believe they cannot) tax you based on the current value. Property taxes are different, and you will be paying those no matter how you live (rent or own). And you are allowed to transfer equity from your current home into a new home tax free, even if you gained, up to a certain amount. I think there are limitations on how many times you can do this... The tax system is definitely set up to favor the homeowner, not the renter. -Steve That's a state-by-state decision. As to whether it's fair...I could make a case against either side.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/12/2013 5:58 AM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote: On 6/11/13 11:40 PM, Walter Bright wrote: I just want to point out that owning a home is far from the sure path to wealth it is too often presented as. As always, caveat emptor. I'd say it's historically about as risky as owning stocks. The main difference is that the house has a utility value - you can't live in a stock. When you're comparing ownership to renting, the utility issue is moot. Steven Schveighoffer wrote: But you can continue to live in an underwater-mortgage house if you can pay for it. Yes, but we are talking about the financial difference between owning vs renting. it was an educated choice. I'm not saying you're wrong, but the proof of that is if you can repeat the success consistently. For example, a lot of CEOs have made fortunes for their companies by backing the right horse. Sometimes, people dismiss them as just lucky, being in the right place at the right time and guessing the right direction. But some CEOs repeatedly make the right choices, and that cannot be dismissed as luck. Examples: Bill Gates and Steve Jobs. I also know a guy who sold everything at the 2000 peak and the 2007 peak. He tells me it was obvious, but I don't know anyone else who did both, although I know many who did one or the other.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 06/11/2013 02:33 PM, Andrei Alexandrescu wrote:
Reddit:
http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/
Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237
Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181
Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY
Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot.
Andrei
Nice talk.
I'd like to relativize the statement about JITing CTFE though.
This is feasible, even given issues such as global local variables. [1]
I have a byte code interpreter for most of CTFE. I have been
unexpectedly busy lately, but hope to get my D frontend out the door in
a more or less respectable state soon.
[1] Given that I understand the term correctly. Is this what you meant?:
int foo(int x){
immutable globalLocal1 = 1;
int globalLocal2 = x;
int foo(bool first){return first?globalLocal1:globalLocal2;}
enum y = foo(true);
return foo(false)+y;
}
static assert(foo(2)==3);
DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. Andrei
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I have another two or the grand to spend. It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 15:28:09 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I have another two or the grand to spend. It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. True dat. Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 16:19:20 UTC, John Colvin wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 15:28:09 UTC, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: hah, I have a PV solar module sitting in my house right now... I'll be installing it (and the rest of my setup) as soon as I have another two or the grand to spend. It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. True dat. Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max And this is in miserable, cloudy, rainy England. They must pump out a lot more in somewhere like California.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 16:19:20 UTC, John Colvin wrote: Combine that with good government subsidies and a deal to sell the power back to the grid and it's more like 10 years, max Aye, that's what I was hoping to get (New York State would have given like 50% money back) but alas I went and bought a house with a west/east facing roof, and a gigantic tree due south from me. The installer estimated I could still get maybe 70% of the system's capacity out of it, but the tax rebates get small fast if you go below 80%. My electric usage is small too, so the cost of installation adds up but still, it is virtually guaranteed to pay for itself over its lifetime and I have a good chance of turning a profit from it. That's so cool. Only downside is the upfront cost, and that isn't even *that* bad. And I guess my equipment waiting to be installed uses a grid tie inverter, so if main power goes out, I'm still out, no independence there. But buying batteries and switches for that would just about double the cost, and 99% of the time, grid power is on anyway so just not worth it for me.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years!
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Am 11.06.2013 14:33, schrieb Andrei Alexandrescu: Reddit: http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/1g47df/dconf_2013_metaprogramming_in_the_real_world_by/ Hackernews: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=5861237 Twitter: https://twitter.com/D_Programming/status/344431490257526785 Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/dlang.org/posts/655271701153181 Youtube: http://youtube.com/watch?v=pmwKRYrfEyY Please drive discussions on the social channels, they help D a lot. Andrei Regarding the IDE thing, did you ever try Kdevelop? Never crashed on me, has syntax highlighting, really basic completion (based on already written *words*, so really basic), but the amazing gdb integration known from C/C++ works! Definitly worth a look.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years! Here's the beauty of it though: the manufacturer offers a 25 year warranty! I've heard stories of PV panels from the 70's still working too. I betcha the lifetime depends on your local weather conditions and such, I know heat can damage them over time, which might be a positive for being here in a colder area.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:21:31 -0400, John Colvin john.loughran.col...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years! Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups. I have to laugh at this. Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years Solar isn't ready yet. It's not cost effective. But cost effectiveness isn't even the issue. It's not sustainable. You need fossil fuels to mine the materials, ship them, assemble the components, etc. Until you can power all those things with pure solar, you are still dependent on fossil fuel. I've seen all these Solar farm installations, and they are butt-ugly. I find it ironic that we are cutting down trees to make room for these things... You can save energy more cost effectively in other ways. I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize it. When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its own merits. -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:21:31 -0400, John Colvin john.loughran.col...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years! Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups. I have to laugh at this. Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years Solar isn't ready yet. It's not cost effective. But cost effectiveness isn't even the issue. It's not sustainable. You need fossil fuels to mine the materials, ship them, assemble the components, etc. Until you can power all those things with pure solar, you are still dependent on fossil fuel. I've seen all these Solar farm installations, and they are butt-ugly. I find it ironic that we are cutting down trees to make room for these things... You can save energy more cost effectively in other ways. I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize it. When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its own merits. -Steve It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin john.loughran.col...@gmail.com wrote: It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual. It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make it a good deal for the individual. Would you buy it if it was full price? -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 12:21 PM, John Colvin wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 18:47:35 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/11/2013 8:28 AM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: It is great stuff, solar power is almost free money if you can wait 20 years for it. Yeah, but you'll have to replace it before 20 years! Source? There's not much that wears out in a photovoltaic AFAIK. The associated electrical components may break however, especially on some of the more complex setups. Don't have a source, I read it long ago. Note that none of the advertisements, brochures, etc., mention expected life of the PVs. I do know that the life of any semiconductor is measured as the integral of the heat it experiences. Heat causes the doping to migrate, and when it migrates far enough the part fails. PV panels can get pretty hot in direct sunlight. Heating/cooling cycling will also cause cracking. If you're considering a PV system, I'd ask serious questions about the useful life of the system, and what maintenance is required (at a minimum, they'll need the dirt and mold regularly cleaned off). Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/13, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years. I bet most companies don't even get to live 20 years. And usually the older a product, the harder (i.e. more expensive) it is to fix it or get spare parts (e.g. cars).
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I have to laugh at this. Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:18:09 -0400, Adam D. Ruppe destructiona...@gmail.com wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I have to laugh at this. Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it. But the difference is, houses frequently last far more than 20 years :) -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 1:11 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On 6/11/13, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: Circuit boards, inverters, etc., also fail, and you'd need some assurance you can get replacement parts for 20 years. I bet most companies don't even get to live 20 years. And usually the older a product, the harder (i.e. more expensive) it is to fix it or get spare parts (e.g. cars). Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think that's an anomaly.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
Steven Schveighoffer: I have no doubt that solar technology will continue to innovate, but the worst thing we can do right now is subsidize it. When it's ready (and it will be), it will succeed on its own merits. The situation is far more complex than that. Bye, bearophile
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:47:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think that's an anomaly. I guess it totally depends on where you live. :)
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 1:18 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I have to laugh at this. Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it. Rents have lagged significantly behind the cost of buying for some time, now (because people buy homes for speculating on real estate price increases). This means you are financially better off renting. Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one of them.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 16:51:53 -0400, Walter Bright newshou...@digitalmars.com wrote: On 6/11/2013 1:18 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:38:13 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: I have to laugh at this. Solar is *almost* free money *if* you can wait 20 years A 20 year payback time is no big deal to me, the house won't pay for itself compared to renting for a similar timeframe either, but I see it is very worth it. Rents have lagged significantly behind the cost of buying for some time, now (because people buy homes for speculating on real estate price increases). This means you are financially better off renting. Define financially better off :) And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many variables to consider. -Steve
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 1:47 PM, Andrej Mitrovic wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:47:04 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Actually, parts for old cars are a lot cheaper than for new ones! But I think that's an anomaly. I guess it totally depends on where you live. :) In the US. For example, my daily driver is an '89 Bronco II. I can get a new radiator for $20, brake calipers for $80, etc. It's amazing how cheap it is to keep that old heap running in top condition. Just try doing a brake job on a newer car. Ghastly prices. For older cars, like my '72 Dodge, a vast industry has sprung up to manufacture replacement parts, from original to much, much improved ones. It's really marvelous. It is interesting how my old cars are far, far cheaper to keep running than even regular maintenance on a newish one.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:51:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one of them. I agreed with you until last year, but the very low mortgage interest rates and fitting in principle prepayments into my budget tipped me toward the other side. (Then the landlord jacking up the rent and giving me a bad attitude on a short notice inspection pushed me into calling the bank immediately - this is the biggest of the other advantages IMO, not having to deal with a landlord anymore!) But, like with a lot of things, there's no substitute for doing your own math before making a decision.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Define financially better off :) You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition? And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many variables to consider. I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing. (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.) I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top. Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On 6/11/2013 2:20 PM, Adam D. Ruppe wrote: On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 20:51:58 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: Owning a home has lots of nice advantages, but saving money isn't reliably one of them. I agreed with you until last year, but the very low mortgage interest rates and fitting in principle prepayments into my budget tipped me toward the other side. (Then the landlord jacking up the rent and giving me a bad attitude on a short notice inspection pushed me into calling the bank immediately - this is the biggest of the other advantages IMO, not having to deal with a landlord anymore!) But, like with a lot of things, there's no substitute for doing your own math before making a decision. Yes, not having to deal with a landlord is one of the nice perques. On the other hand, there's another landlord you can't get away from - the property tax people and the zoning people and the permit people. You never really own it. If there's an HOA, better read those covenants very, very carefully first. I own the house I live in, I find it worthwhile for me. But I'm not under any delusion that it's some great financial investment. I've previously owned 4 houses, and lost money on two of them (one of them pretty badly). If I sold my current one today, I'd lose a nice chunk on it. Renting can be nice. For example, if your life circumstances change, or you just want a change of scenery, you can just walk away from it.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 19:54:34 UTC, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: On Tue, 11 Jun 2013 15:44:35 -0400, John Colvin john.loughran.col...@gmail.com wrote: It's not ready to roll out as the energy of the future, but in certain circumstances it's a good deal for an individual. It's not a good deal for the taxpayers who have to subsidize it to make it a good deal for the individual. Would you buy it if it was full price? -Steve Probably not. However, the subsidies have done a great deal to get the technology real-world testing in a variety of settings, as well as providing cash-flow for practical R+D, especially with regards to more down to earth practicalities. I would say it is - at the very least - not a complete waste of money for the tax-payer. P.S. I'm not buying it at all, my parents did as it represented a much better investment than any bank accounts. In particular, the energy companies pay quite a high price to buy the spare energy.
Re: DConf 2013 Day 3 Talk 1: Metaprogramming in the Real World by Don Clugston
On Tuesday, 11 June 2013 at 21:29:49 UTC, Walter Bright wrote: On 6/11/2013 2:19 PM, Steven Schveighoffer wrote: Define financially better off :) You have mo' moolah. Is their any other definition? And this is not even a fair conversation, because there are so many variables to consider. I'd like to pop that default conception that buying is financially better than renting. It's only true if real estate values appreciate faster than inflation plus taxes plus real estate commissions, which is hardly a sure thing. (A lot of people overlook property taxes and capital gains taxes when they make these calculations. I know one guy who cashed in his stock options and bought a house with the proceeds, only to be forced to sell it a year later because he couldn't pay the upkeep and taxes on his salary.) I can't even recall anyone remembering that selling a house costs you a 6% commission to the real estate agent. Poof! There goes a big chunk of your profits right off the top. Housing prices have to go up a lot to counter all that. In my experiences renting in the UK, a lot depends on the local conditions. For example, low quality housing situated near a university is a fantastic investment as a landlord: There is very little domestic demand for those properties as the academics don't want them and nor do the better paid admin staff, so the prices stay low. However, the rental demand is intense, inexperienced and inflexible, keeping rents very high.
