[tdf-discuss] the Meaning of access in manifesto
Hello, what does access mean in the manifesto: to eliminate the digital divide in society by giving everyone access to office productivity tools free of charge to enable them to participate as full citizens in the 21st century Is it only the possibility for someone to download from TDF/LO-Sites or a more active way like a distribution by pre-installed LO on PC too? What does TDF really/precisely understand with access? Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Ian, ... And they are not equal. That's my problem with it at the moment. I don't really understand how this democratic-meritocratic principle works. And what you explain below with Microsoft, for me it is not meritocratic or democratic that's an ethical aspect. Democracy means that everyone has the potential to contribute, Democracy simply means representation of the people (community). Even established democracies don't have referendums on every issue. Party political systems mean that there are real limits to what any individual can contribute. I can't go and contribute directly to new legislation other than by saying what I think and hope it will influence someone. That is not really much different from a FOSS project. ... What you say about democracy, political parties eg is the today situation. But eventually think about this: Democratic systems have the power and lot of money for secret cyber-tasks, for a hidden worldwide web of information and spy-systems and so on. They find it important, they give the money to do it and they have the will to do it. That's possible but not a better flow of information between citizens and politicians to create a more real democracy. There is no democratic-task, no worldwide-web of democratic informations. There is no will to involve more people in decisions or for the prefield of decisions. What will I say with this? Can we organize the structure of LO with examples in mind which have not the will for transparancy? Or must there be a thinking like: ESC has the final decision, OK. And for that, what are the best conditions that they have the best informations to make the best decisions for the best (open) Office Suite? Eventually this is one other task for the time after the phase of beginning. Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] LO 3.3 RC 2 - Colour for insert columns and rows in Writer
Hello, it's about a table in writer and the icons to insert columns and rows. The colour now is yellow. I find it not a good choice because it's a pale kind of yellow and not good to see. What about a more saturated yellow or a kind of blue or purple or orange? LO 3.3 RC2 with XP pro Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Italo, On 1/3/11 7:38 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote: Where can I read it? Is it in the next decade manifesto? http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/announce/msg00016.html Thanks for the Link. - And I could ask the next questions, but I save it for later. I try to get it clearer for me till the 3.3-Release, and eventually with a summary of the manifesto and other important things, to have lately: a better basis to clear things in the calm after the release eventually a shortform of the TDF-goals for people which come new to the project. To check the frame for me, in what time about could the 3.3-Release start? ... Thank You for your patience, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Italo, On 1/3/11 8:43 AM, Johannes A. Bodwing wrote: What's the background (for ESC) to decide what leads to the best software for users? I apologize for repeating myself, but the ESC will decide upon positive contributions, suggestions or requests. You suggest a feature, promote a technology, contribute a new export filter. ... What I mean now with a real example. What if I would propose to transform the startcenter into a individual desktop with drop and drag like the former integrated desktop of StarOffice. And I would also propose to make it choosable for users: ~ to have it in the LO-window like now the startcenter ~ to dock it like toolbars (perhaps with a constant distance from the dokument-window) ~ to use it like an external container of individual folders, files and links. How would someone decide whether it were a positiv feature for LO or not? Because no one has a crystall ball to look into the future. And it could be, that such a proposal is denied by LO but ten months later another producer of an office-suit succeeds with just such a feature. And if it were denied, is it lost than till somebody others makes the same proposal years later. Or is there a system to save proposals for a later check under new conditions. That's my problem with the decisions. But it hasn't to be answered right now. I'll ask such things after the 3.3-release again. Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Leif, Dear Larry, ... I disagree with you of two reasons: 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what is 'good' and what is 'bad' code? Nobody. Because ! We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works fine for us. I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software. But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community. Why can than one group or one person decide about important things? Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Andreas, Hi Johannes, *, Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 19:30:31 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing: Hi Leif, Dear Larry, ... I disagree with you of two reasons: 1) LibreOffice is free software. If any developer wants to improve the code - he or she has the freedom to do so. I think this is one very important stand. We have seen other products in the marked licensed as open source but that are not free software. Who should decide what what is 'good' and what is 'bad' code? Nobody. Because ! We are not building a cathedral are we? Not because the bazaar works fine for us. I agree too in one point: LibreOffice is free software as a software. But we speak about LO as the substantial product of TDF. And TDF wants to evolve the community of OOo eg. With that LO is part of the community. Why can than one group or one person decide about important things? this is because LibreOffice and the TDF are build on the contribution of the members. The people, which are doing the work, decide about the things they are doing for LO and the TDF. But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another mega- thread on this list. That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. And some is confusing. In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes. under the bylaws of TDF? What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find that information? The other point is: TDF ... is an independent self-governing meritocratic Foundation, ... (TDF-Homesite) and on the Next Decade Manifesto: ... the home for our activities should be an independent self-governing democratic foundation ... How have I to understand that? Or where can I find answers about it? Thanks, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Do not support writing to OOXML format
Hi Andreas, ... Hi Johannes, *, Am Sonntag, 2. Januar 2011, 21:36:20 schrieb Johannes A. Bodwing: Hi Andreas, Hi Johannes, *, (...) But you yourself had to decide first, what you want to contribute to which community (OOo or LO). We need people who are doing the daily work. We need not another mega- thread on this list. That's right. But TDF fell from heaven in September 2010, and till now I am looking for answers to important questions about both, OOo and LO. And some is confusing. not from heaven, but from the community or her long term contributors. For me and many others from heaven. In this Mail for LO: If I understand you correctly, decisions about programming are the task of the developers. Is this The mission of the ESC is to provide technical guidance and to settle technical disputes. under the bylaws of TDF? What's the basis for the developers to make decisions? Where can I find that information? Read the other mails from the members of the TDF and LibreOffice. I have not the time to repeat anything. But I have? How many hundreds of mails are this to find the right? Sorry, that covers one of the problems. I've wrote it before: Some important information is not available in short time. The same as OOo ;-) I'll contribute in my sparetime, not only write mails and steal the time of other members of the community. Thanks for the clearness ;-) That means, you don't know it. Why don't you say that clearly, instead of such sideblows? So if you want to be a member of LibreOffice also go ahead and decide, what you can do for the community and contribute. I do what I can do in a situation with open important questions. Look at my mails, I have not the time to repeat anything. Everything clear? Greetings, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Name Change for LibreOffice Applications
Hello, ... for Spreadsheed / Presentation / Drawing / Formula. ... So we could have: Text Table Presentation Drawing Formula I think we discuss on the basis of computer-stoneage. For example Writer/Word/Text e.g., this began decades ago with only text and a handful of fonts and simple layout inside an 1 MB RAM (or less). Nowadays Writer/Text is more than pages with words. With LO it is possible to create complex layout with different fonts, stiles, pictures, graphic and charts to get books with hundreds of pages in professional styling. Writer/Text/Word are phrases from the past. In the case of Writer/Text we continue StarWriter from 1985 with a modern LO. But this phrases do not reflect the present status of a modern Office-Suite like LO. If we change names, we should do it on the background of the real functions of a modern Office-Suite. For that eventually we have to think deeply about a complete new naming-background for the future LO. Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Name Change for LibreOffice Applications
Hi Jeremy and others, ... Johannes A. Bodwingjo...@arcor.de wrote: If we change names, we should do it on the background of the real functions of a modern Office-Suite. For that eventually we have to think deeply about a complete new naming-background for the future LO. On Sat, 18 Dec 2010 19:24:06 +0100 RGB ESrgb.m...@gmail.com wrote: Maybe for 4.0... but must be planned with great precision and the old version must be supported for some time too. +1 Names for the moduls of LO are not yet the thing. Like some others already said: First their is the final release of LO 3.3 (in januaray 2011 I think). In my opinion after this release we have to clear the goals of TDF and LO and what kind of Office-Suite LO should be in or for the future. Eventually even what other kind of software TDF will make. After that we have a better basis to discuss or not about the best names for LO-modules. That doesn't mean that we fall silent. Everyone can collect his/her ideas till the release of LO 3.3, and then - kick off for the best open Office Suite ever. This leads me to the question: Who from TDF/LO has the overview of the most effiency schedule for major steps of the TDF/LO-project? Is there someone who says what has to come next to build the project in its best way with the personal it has at the moment? And could it be helpful to have such a schedule on the webiste of TDF and all national groups, with a rough timetable and permanently refreshed? Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Community Management
Hello, On 12/16/2010 3:45 AM, Cor Nouws wrote: Benjamin Horst wrote (14-12-10 16:21) I agree with you about the possible negative connotations of the term manager, but I think it's just a terminology problem. You could think of the role as Community Facilitator or even host if you prefer. The actual tasks inherent to the role are similar to the host of a party--introducing people to others with similar interests, helping to coordinate times, places and necessities, etc. In practice, it's hugely helpful to have someone walking around to make sure that good ideas don't get lost and plans receive encouragement and assistance until they are completed. They can also play the role of matchmaker, to help find volunteers for important initiatives that don't have enough helpers. I also understand the desire to form a clean break from the past and to build our own thing this time. I think it's the right approach, but I don't think it means we can eliminate the role of the community manager, though renaming it to better suit our project's culture certainly makes sense. +1 Very well said, IMO. A good manager serves the community. A manager is not a commander. Being a good manager is a time-consuming task. It involves knowing what is going on, understanding the 'how-to's' of many community members, and finding a balance between letting flow, and linking actively, proposing, intervening etc. I am sure our bye-laws provide us with some officers, of which I expect one to do this job. Regards, Cor I agree -- and to avoid the negative implications of manager how about calling this valuable person the Community Coordinator? What's the construction we talk about? If we install someone like a community coordinator, than the term says he/she coordinates the community. What than does TDF or the steering committee? Their mission is to evolve the OpenOffice.org-Community into a new open ... and so on. I think we have not enough clearness about the things TDF/LO consists of. There is in a rough form: a Community - a Product (LO) the Community is build of developers, users, sponsors, contributors and so on the Product is at the moment the sequel of OOo; later on it could be additional software too in the kind of open-source the Community as a whole works to offer the software to the public. and that all should work with a global dimension as well as with national or local basis. I propose to think it from the core. And that is at the moment: We construct an organisation (TDF) to develop and contribute a software-product (LO). Or a little bit harder: We build a kind of MS in an open and non-profit-oriented form ;-) Than the elementary question is: How has a structure to be to fulfill our goals in the best way it could be done? Also this structure has to include the tools to reach as many people as possible (for development, testing, marketing, sponsoring and so on). With this aspects we have to proof the current form of TDF, trim it to a better level, proof the goals, check the construction, trim it and so on. For that we need an adequate exchange of information. For example the best configuration of mailing-lists, collaborative working, and others more. Because nearly all of this has a global basis and a national one, regional or local, the relevant information has finally to spread to every member of the community. Also every (good) idea of a member has to reach the national or global basis. And now another important question: Should we begin right now - or should we wait till the final release of LO? Because many people are in the preparation of this release. Otherwise the clock is ticking and some people dont develop, test and so on. They could work on a (rough) sketch of the fundamental aspects of the TDF-structure, to bring it forward as fast as possible. At last back to the Community Coordinator. This function we have install on the best position inside the best construction of TDF we could make. Eventually in the beginning like a joker without a determined position. Regards, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: TDF/LO on a wrong way?
Hi Marc, here just the first point. ... Le 2010-12-14 07:52, Johannes A. Bodwing a écrit : Sorry people, ... I fear we will loose our goals short after beginning. OK, that's hard. But look at OOo and its goals and what is realized after ten years. We will work on the goals, mission, values etc. of the LO soon. This is an item that has been discussed on the marketing list. These will not necessarily be the same as the TDF. I think that most members recognise that the TDF and LO will need to be represented on different sites. The more I try to understand TDF/LO I understand it less. What I think to know about it at the moment is: ~ TDF has a mission. In short: to build better conditions for a community, like it is said on the TDF-Website. The purpose is not mentioned there. But it is the Office-Suite LO as a sequel to the OOo-Office-Suite in a freer frame. (OK, some time it was thought it could be OOo again). ~ That means TDF has no (clear) mission at the moment for LO. But the core of the TDF-Community is the Office-Suite LO. And TDF is founded for building and progress of LO. ~ TDF offers the final LO in the next few weeks (I think) without a mission/vision or goals for LO? And after the final release of LO 3.3 we think about the goals etc. of LO? ~ That means on the basis of the TDF-mission TDF is working for a community not for LO - and LO has no goals but comes soon? But who makes LO if not TDF? Is this the way to success for such a project? Why is the reason for TDF not mentionend in the mission like: ... With this we improve the conditions for our Office Suite LibreOffice ... and so on. Is this a mistake, a slip of the pen? Or is there a concrete reason why the Office-Suite isn't mentioned in the mission of TDF? a little bit confused, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Community Management
Hello Benjamin, ... ... Jono has written a book called The Art of Community, which describes his approach. It's available to purchase or download under a CC license from his site: http://www.artofcommunityonline.org/get/ This would be a great read for all of us involved in TDF as we strive to increase our membership and visibility to the world. Jono also offered to help us as our community grows, so if anyone is interested in talking to him, please reach out. (His info is on his site: http://www.jonobacon.org/contact-me/ ) That's a good thing. And if he helps us - OK. On the other side: We need just our brain to find the right solutions. We have goals. That leads to: What is to do, to make this goals real, in a global dimension? We build a worldwide community. - That leads to: How can it realy work with good results? And basically: What is to do, to find an optimal structure for all of this? And so on. We need a kind of selforganizing structure that leads to what we want. Even in a phase when communication breaks. That's the problem of every group that is to great to reach the members by speaking in front of them. And that's a point, OOo did not understand. Therefore, we will not come very far if we copy OOo. Gruß, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] TDF/LO on a wrong way?
Sorry people, I think we are on a wrong way. Why? OK, there is hard work on every side, but what is the core of all? And how do we realize this core around the world with a structure for a long, long time? For example, look at HOME on the website. There you find: LibreOffice - Welcome to LibreOffice and so on. The german site is familiar. But LO is just a manifestation of the idea of TDF. And the idea/goals of TDF are: Our mission is to facilitate the evolution of the OpenOffice.org Community into a new open, independent, and meritocratic organizational structure within the next few months. That means: The core is the Community, its structure and its evolution e.g. And LO is the product that comes from this structur and that helps to improve the structure of this Community. Like a crystal nucleus. Why can TDF and LO than go to public in this splitted way they do? TDF and LO are one thing that can't be splitted without loosing the basis. For example: Why not on every HOME-Site in every nation (and in every article, spot e.g.) start with the spirit oft TDF/LO?: The Document Foundation presents the new Freedom of Community-based Software LibreOffice The spirit of this Community is the fuel. This spirit provides the worldwide frame for everything TDF does. With this spirit LO is created and will be developed and so on. And for that the Community has to work together as a whole. I fear we will loose our goals short after beginning. OK, that's hard. But look at OOo and its goals and what is realized after ten years. Or look at the idea of a LO-Magazin. It's a thread on the international marketing-list and one on the german list. How many LO-magazins are starting, and in the end everyone of it is like every national group will make it. Everyone different and perhaps without the core of all - the goals of TDF. Look at the website. The german list thinks about another content and layout. Every group works and changes and works and changes. Why not for example the same Layout on the Home-Site? The other sites could be more national-like. And so on. So many things are done different in many goups. That costs energy and time and at least motivation. But there are many things that could be done together. Like a common Home-Site or the exchange of articles for LO-Magazins and so on. Where is the common and worldwide frame for the TDF/LO-Project? And where is the structure and organization to find (website?)? Or - how can we build it together? Regards, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Bring up libreoffice.org website to world *now*
Sorry people 2, Sorry people, ... *Get It!* two lines below should stand on the right side of the website, big and as a Link. writing texts drawing *Get It !* [as a Link to the Download-Side] spreadsheet and many more Than follows the rest: ... Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Bring up libreoffice.org website to world *now*
Hi Bernhard, ... Please propose your valid ideas on the website mailing list or - if you have some spare time - perhaps you could work on the site directly (with the built-in editor SilverStripe is quite easy to be used). I have no spare time, but I'll try to squeeze it into 24 hours of the day - where can I find this website mailing list? Thank You, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Vision/Mission
Hello, late, but I found it just right now. Hi, :-) On Thu, Nov 25, 2010 at 12:20, Sonic4Spudssonic4sp...@gmail.com wrote: productivity software for home and office Corel calls Word Perfect Office X5 The essential office suite for home and business. For LO I think, it has to hook up into the real working of users; that means what users realy do with Office-Software (realize ideas, writing texts e.g.) like: LibreOffice is The (Software)Collection to create your ideas (everytime, everywhere and with indivudial style) LibreOffice - The (Software)Collection to make your ideas real LibreOffice - The (Software)Collection to realize your ideas in home or office LibreOffice - Software for fine Workings in Text and Graphik LibreOffice - Fine Software to improve your Work LibreOffice - One more step to better Texts and Graphiks and so on or: LibreOffice - it's just for You Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
[tdf-discuss] PM für LO 3.3 - Grundfragen
Hallo Leute, ein neuer Anlauf, um eine PM für LO 3.3 auf die Reihe zu bekommen. Schaut mal bitte drüber, was von den nachfolgenden Fragen relevant ist, bzw. was vielleicht zusätzlich für die erste PM für LO zu beachten wäre. Ich versuche damit das Grundgerüst klar zu bekommen, denn während die PM für OOo 3.3. quasi mit dem Aspekt Fortsetzung arbeiten könnte, wäre es für LO eine Art Neustart (Reset?); d.h. als Kernaspekte für die PM wäre vielleicht zu beachten: ~ LO als Software vorstellen (was kriegt der Nutzer mit der Installation von LO überhaupt auf seinen Rechner?) + evtl. die Zielsetzung dahinter; ~ LO im Zshang mit OOo darstellen (daß es keine Trennung ist, sondern Ergänzung, Verbesserung der Möglichkeiten etc.); ~ die Features (wo steht dazu Verwendbares in leicht verständlicher Form?) + evtl. was es in OOo nicht gibt, bzw. was/wo die Unterschiede sind; ~ evtl. auch etwas versteckt die Motivation in den Text reinpacken, damit noch mehr Leute mitmachen; ~ letztlich müßte ganz stark der Nutzen für die User rüberkommen, den sie haben, wenn sie LO runterladen, statt OOo (sonst würde ja die LO-Version keinen wirklichen Sinn machen, denke ich mal); ~ LO ist nicht identisch mit OOo, also nicht die 1:1-Fortsetzung von OOo, basiert aber massiv auf OOo, ist also auch nichts komplett Neues; wie grenzt man da sauber ab oder ergänzt oder sonstwie? Restfrage von mir: Geht es hier um eine Betaversion LO 3.3 oder Endversion? Gruß, Johannes -- Unsubscribe instructions: Email to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines: http://netmeister.org/news/learn2quote.html Archive: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi, On 10/20/2010 11:59 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: That is not instructions on how to unsubscribe, that is instructions on how to send a message to get a 'help' response that will include instructions on how to unsubscribe (*and* subscribe, and a bunch of other stuff), and because it is so long, many people will simply not read it (I do user support for 60+ users in our office, I know how users are). At least the unsub instructions are first, but still... I have little sympathy for anyone not being able to unsubscribe if they aren't willing to actually read the first 12 words (!) of the message coming back from discuss+help. It's not rocket science. You send an unsubscribe request, and then you confirm it. And the links are pre-made to do it, so it's really just two mouse clicks. This set up is the same as for thousands of other mailing lists, and I honestly don't know how it could get any simpler. What about a single-question-mail? A User clicks this button on the website and he/she gets just his own thread about this one question no others. In this mail included are two buttons in the kind of: ~ thanks, my question is answered ~ I need more information After clicking the first button (question answered), this user is eliminated in the list and gets no further mails. With the second button the thread continues. Johannes -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
