Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 28/04/2016 01:39, Italo Vignoli wrote: I do not know, as I am not a developer. I have configured my instance of LibreOffice to replace Calibri and Cambria with Carlito and Caladea (there is a replacement table in Options > LibreOffice > Fonts). I will ask developers is this specific replacement, given the pervasiveness of Calibri and Cambria, can be set as a pre-defined option. Again, that's good information Italo, though the practice looks a bit awkward (I can see that the font is being replaced, but the original font is shown as being in use even when you select something, right click and select characters.) Just thinking aloud, interoperability seems such an important selling point for LO that IMHO it needs a little project to decide what might be best. I'm thinking of an 'interoperability' configuration option which those organisations and individuals that want to be certain their documents conform to standards can set to constrain their documents to maximise interoperability (eg not able to save to non-standard formats, not able to use fonts which are not interoperable). This definitely needs to be an option, not the default, but I can see it having significant appeal to those organisations, especially local and national governments, who have declared that they conform. You should still be able to open non-standard documents. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 21:57, Italo Vignoli wrote: In fact, they are provided as equivalents, although the software is not configured to handle them as equivalents. If you are promoting LO because it provides better interoperability, shouldn't they be configured as equivalents? You could even prompt users on save. Would this break something? -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 21:18, Italo Vignoli wrote: By using C-Fonts, you are therefore producing documents with limited interoperability C-Fonts are not interoperable also in technical terms, That's good information. Does TDF have a recommendation for which fonts to use to maximise interoperability across the common range of OS's? (Quite complex if you include iOS and Android as well as Win, Mac, nix). Not sure if the generic 'sans-serif' etc do what the normal user wants. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] OOXML ECMA-376, transitionnal and strict
On 27/04/2016 13:42, Italo Vignoli wrote: Several people at TDF have been involved in the decision process and have contributed specific evidence about ODF and OOXML I zapped your last message, but I wondered whether it was necessary to have an MSO licence to use Calibri etc. This windows PC, originally Win 7, now Win 10 has all the MS fonts but has never had MSO installed, which seems to imply it's Windows rather than Office that brings in the fonts? -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net Please help with this important project https://theprostatecancerproject.net Transforming Prostate Cancer Treatment The project aims to transform diagnosis and treatment using ground-breaking computer science to reveal crucial information hidden in the complex mass of data about prostate cancer lets stop prostate cancer logo If you are a man over 60, insist on an annual PSA test, which is your right Regular tests significantly improve early detection of prostate cancer, giving a much better chance of successful treatment -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
On 21/12/2014 13:18, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Would a different attitude/culture, something like Users 1st, help to mitigate that? Users do not dictate what developers do. That's not how Free and Open Source Software works, as the culture change entails that users would tell developers and contributors what to do. What would be the incentive for anyone to do that? I have a day job. Many others do. Why would I receive directives from random people?:-) At the same time it would be good to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help Send Feedback...page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of being users. Users are users. They get rights from the software freedom conveyed by the licenses we use. They do not get anything else, unless they want to become contributors. Anything else is toxic for the community and profoundly demotivational (btw: we have ten years of experience on that inside OpenOffice.org) To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. How about: Everyone is welcome: see how you can become involved today! Otherwise you keep on having this distinction where users are not encouraged to become contributors. OK, I can spend some time on this now and will work though the design group as suggested. I'm still keen on a 'users first' approach and an acceptance that users are 'in' the community by virtue of being users. It's semantic I suppose, since in some sense users are clearly part of the wider LO community. The idea actually comes from my local hospital, which has the byline 'patients first' on all its correspondence and documentation. The patient is considered to be part of the team rather than someone to whom things are done. In my personal experience it makes a huge difference to how 'users' feel. It doesn't though make much difference to medical processes and treatment. So, by a similar analogy, I don't see why you would expect a 'users first' approach to change current processes significantly. BUT, in my view there is a considerable potential upside because it will make the user feel more valued, it will make the step to deeper involvement seem smaller even though in practice it's just the same, and it will probably make it slightly more likely that users will take that step, which is what we all want. I understand that it might seem threatening having thought about the relationship in a different way for 10 years. I expect hospital staff felt the same when the idea was first floated there, and their history is much longer than that. So, I plan to draft stuff along 'user first' lines and see how it looks. If it still seems too awful, it will no doubt get changed before implementation. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: RfD: Non-corporate user representation?
On 16/12/2014 09:37, Thorsten Behrens wrote: As such, we're crucially relying on feedback from our users (and Charles pointed out the many ways to collect it) -- but just in the aggregate. Collectively, our user base provides tremendous value to us, by marketing to peers, reporting bugs, voting with their feet, donating money etc. The individual user though -- on average -- contributes just tiny amounts. So the big picture looks pretty much like Charles' tongue-in-cheek 'almost zero'. I'm also late responding to what seemed originally to be a genuine attempt by Nino to seek ways of enhancing end user feedback. Although I agree the necessary mechanisms are in place, his input is evidence that it can be hard for users to appreciate this. It can seem that developments and discussions are for the benefit of the 'in' team and not for the majority who are not involved other than as users. Would a different attitude/culture, something like Users 1st, help to mitigate that? At the same time it would be good to define the user's implicit responsibilities resulting from their choice to use the product. To make the difference clearer, it's not a case that the user needs to 'Join us!' as on the Help Send Feedback...page, rather it would be an accepted fact that all users are automatically a member of the community simply by virtue of being users. To make this change of emphasis visible I'm thinking of an extension to theHelp Send Feedback...page, also ideally putting that content into the main help file so users can see it without going online. Below is a very rough draft, based in part on Thorsten's excellent summary above. I'd be happy to put more effort into a better version if gets support. Keeping this kind of text simple and inviting is always very difficult. == Welcome to the LibreOffice Community The LibreOffice community includes all users. Everyone is welcome, whether as a user or if you are able to become more involved. As a user, you inevitably have responsibilities: - enjoy the advantages of LO - learn to use the LO effectively - keep your version up-to-date - make an occasional donation, however small, perhaps when you upgrade - tell your friends about your experience You are most welcome to become more involved: [ followed by a reformatted version of the Help Send Feedback page] [new 'Users 1st' logo] == -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Process for resolving security issues
I'm not sure whether this is the right list, but it will do for a start. I would like to understand what process is in place for handling security issues. The question has arisen because of bug 51819, a serious security issue which was reported more than 18 months ago. Getting that bug resolved is important enough, but even more important is knowing what process is in place to track and resolve security issues. Who at a senior TDF level is responsible for managing security? What are the guidelines for the process? Are these documented? FWIW, it would be normal in most applications for security issues to always be blockers for the next version and to get the highest development priority. Until resolved ideally they should also be private. Users need to have confidence that security is being handled professionally on their behalf. The lack of progress on bug 51819 has considerably dented my confidence. Putting a comment in the release notes is really not enough. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] removing mailing list prefixes?
On 01/08/2012 23:28, Florian Effenberger wrote: Are there mailing lists where we could get rid of this prefix? What do people think? From the perspective of a relatively inactive observer, FWIW I find it very useful to be able to see immediately which list is in use. It's especially helpful when stuff gets put into spam, which happens relatively often with mailing list communications, because it makes it much easier to find and recover. If the subject line has to change to accommodate DKIM, it would be good to retain automatically generated text so the list can still be clearly identified. I don't have the need to do mail filtering and I don't know whether or not Thunderbird filtering supports list-id etc, though a quick Google search seemed to imply not. With Thunderbird, which I would imagine is a common client, I can see list-post and list-id etc by viewing the complete header, but I can see no way of displaying these eg as a column for immediate list recognition. There was an addon, but it's not been updated beyond Thunderbird version 2. Viewing the complete header is not a practical alternative way of easily recognising the list. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] removing mailing list prefixes?
On 02/08/2012 09:10, Florian Effenberger wrote: M. Fioretti wrote on 2012-08-02 11:15: According to this page it does: http://legroom.net/howto/thunderbird Thunderbird does, GMail doesn't. :) Hmm. Yes, I can see how to do it, but it does seem there is a danger of solving one problem at the expense of making something that was previously straightforward much more complex. In various charitable contexts I've been giving informal email support to 200+ users for more than 10 years and not once has email filtering been raised or discussed. If the list description disappears, to get the equivalent visual clues, users would need to learn about and set up several filter rules, possibly one for each list and they would have to remember what each colour coding meant, or they would have to resort to sub-folders. That's quite an imposition for your 'ordinary' users, who are most likely in the majority. The method will also fail if messages are put directly into spam by ISP software, ie if they don't hit the user's inbox first. I guess we might get used to not having these automatic strings, however, here are two possible alternatives that might be worth considering: a) Ask those posting an initial message in a thread to put text in the subject line defining the list before sending it, thus PGP etc would work again. The disadvantage is that people won't always do it, unless the list servers check that suitable text is there and reject the message or add the current string if it's not. b) An extra column in Thunderbird would also solve the problem. The obvious choice would be 'reply to', which is already set in list messages (but does this header change also affect PGP???), not a currently available option, but most likely something that could reasonably easily be provided with an add-on or, even better, by an enhancement to Thunderbird. It would have other benefits too, particularly to help highlight certain spam emails. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] The Microsoft Word 2007 XML(*.docx) format does not correctly save numbering edits.
On 04/09/2011 09:31, e-letter wrote: On 02/09/2011, M Robinsonmr.m.robin...@gmail.com wrote: LibreOffice 3.4.0 OOO340m1 (Build:12) I've tried this repeatedly, when I generate lines of text, number them (F12), delete every other line number, save in Microsoft Word 2007 XML (*.docx) format the results are always the same when viewed in MS Word 2007: the numbered lines with deleted numbers are no longer indented. However, the Open Office XML Text (*.docx) format does correctly save the file and appears as expected when viewed in MS Word 2007. These typical m$ queries are irrelevant to LO. If you want to create m$ documents, get money out of your pocket and pay for m$o. If the expected and desired behaviour occurs with the native odt format, then LO is good. Unfortunately they aren't irrelevant. If only life were that simple. Whether or not you have a copy of MSO, to communicate with other people and companies it is frequently necessary to write .doc or .docx files. The original message is good information towards making that process better. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] The Microsoft Word 2007 XML(*.docx) format does not correctly save numbering edits.
On 04/09/2011 23:09, e-letter wrote: On 04/09/2011, Mike Hallmike.h...@onepoyle.net wrote: ... Unfortunately they aren't irrelevant. If only life were that simple. Whether or not you have a copy of MSO, to communicate with other people and companies it is frequently necessary to write .doc or .docx files. Then you should buy m$o if receipt of m$ formats is mandatory. Otherwise, what's wrong with despatch of both pdf (to view) and odt (to promote LO)? I can give you many examples. Here is one in my last post on this thread: I'm applying for a job. The company insists that CVs are submitted in Word XP format. In this case there is no option but to comply. This requirement is by no means unusual, especially for bigger companies. If you aren't willing to conform, your application will be rejected. The CV won't be read 'just in case'. And yes, the insistence is generally perfectly reasonable because the HR recruitment system only works with Word XP documents. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Writer printing paragraph formats it into following bulletted list
On 20/08/2011 17:24, Terrence Enger wrote: Hello, all. In writer I selected a paragraph and the following bulleted list. Then I printed Selection. To my surprise, the printout formats the first paragraph as one item in the bulleted list. Can this be anything but a bug? Thanks, Terry. Hi Terry, Bug confirmed with Lo 1.4.2 under Vista. Best if you submit a bug report. Let me know if you can't - in that case I will do it. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Viability of the 3.4.2 Release
On 01/08/2011 11:42, Peter Hillier-Brook wrote: Given that the release of LibreOffice 3.4.2 is targeted at enterprise users, I find it surprising that the product is thought to be ready for release. At lease 2 significant bugs have been introduced and remain present that would, to my mind, discourage personal, let alone enterprise users. They are: 1 Inability to connect to address data sources - at least in Linux systems. 2 Inability to add/change icons in toolbar customisation - no scroll bar. Apart from the bugs themselves, what does this say about the product in general as a usable tool? Were I still an enterprise user, I would be very wary about allowing this release into my office. Peter HB It does seem to have been released a little early. Installed fine (Win 32 Vista), but crashes during the initial processes during enabling Hungarian I will have to revert to an earlier version. Very annoying. It seems strange to release a product with, according to the bug list, more than 40 critical issues. I doubt this will enhance its reputation. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Re: Java 7 - not recognised in LO in Windows Vista
On 28/07/2011 21:36, Mike Hall wrote: Noticed by chance that Java 7.0 was released today. It's not in the normal update cycle yet, but you can download it from: www.oracle.com/technetwork/java/javase/downloads/java-se-jre-7-download-432155.html It installs and works fine in a number of apps (eg Jedit), but I can't get LO 3.4.1 to recognise it, not even when given what should be the right path (via Tools Options Java Add) Just wondering whether this is something that needs to be looked at before 3.4.2 is released as I expect it will soon become the standard Java release? I added bug 39659. Would be worth someone else checking this one out. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Problems? http://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] New LibreOffice Reader Eliminates Need for PDF Reader
On 24/06/2011 03:59, Marc Paré wrote: Marc Paré wrote: This thread is really about proposing, to the devs, the possibility of creating a LibreOffice Reader similar to the Adobe .pdf Reader. This could be an idea to investigate, but I don't know how feasible it is; actually there is (or used to be) a read only mode in OpenOffice.org and LibreOffice, but if I recall correctly the LibreOffice developers hated it. if we were to promote a quick and dirty LibreOffice Reader, very much like the Adobe Acrobat Reader, whose sole purpose is to provide the ability to read .odt files, there would be no need to carry .pdf formatted files. This, however, won't work. Document fidelity is not the aim of ODT files, while it is the aim of PDF files (example: font embedding, but one could find many more). Replacing PDF by ODT is just not feasible due to the formats themselves, not to the lack of an ODF Reader. Regards, Andrea. The initial use of the LibreOffice Reader would be just a plain reader, the challenge after this would be to try to build as much document fidelity into it as possible. Again, with the hopes to rival .pdf fidelity. Maybe once all the devs put their heads together, they may come up with some way to do this. Let's not forget that the Djvu people accomplished this to some extent. If we were to work at it we could surprise everyone. There is always the possibility of submitting any changes to the ODF, that could enhance the formats, through the possible channels at the ISO and OASIS of which we are members. Cheers Marc As Andrea states, the point about PDF is that it 'locks in' the format of a document, allowing it to be displayed or printed everywhere as the user intended. All other formats created by word processors, including MS Office and LibO, will display and print differently on different computers, depending for example on the specific printer a user has installed. I doubt that this is something that could readily be fixed by tweaking ODF, it's fundamental to the way all word processors work. I also believe that any diversion of scarce DEV effort would inevitably move the focus further away from fixing the many bugs still in LibO, which would be counter-productive. -1 -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] LibreOffice Math: There is no
...should have added ∄On 04/05/2011 11:12, Mike Hall wrote:Unicode Character 'THERE DOES NOT EXIST' (U+2204) == see...www.fileformat.info/info/unicode/char/2204/index.htm... easily found with a Google searchMikeOn 04/05/2011 11:07, Olivier Hallot wrote:HiThanks for the time to answer.The symbol is not in the wikipage indicated.It's an ∃ overlapped with /, or barred ∃, the negation of exist (∃).I wonder if this symbol can be added to Math, and if there is a code (unicode) for it.RegardsOlivierEm 04-05-2011 02:07, Steve Edmonds escreveu:On 2011-05-04 16:47, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:Le 03/05/2011 21:26, Olivier Hallot a écrit :HiDoes anybody knows if in LO Math there si a way to represent themathematical symbol for There is no, which is a barred flipped E?Is it difficult to add it to the Elements windows? If a bug is alreadyopen, and one of you knows it, can I get the number to track it?Thanks in advance.Hi Olivier,Is a notin b the answer you asked for ?Best regardsJBFIs it ∃! or ∉Seehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mathematical_symbolsin caseunicode above is not transmitted by the list server and please advise ifthe symbol is there.steve-- Mike Hallwww.onepoyle.net-- Mike Hallwww.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
I think we also need to examine some of the reasons behind the reluctance. I've made this particular point before, but I don't think its significance has been accepted by the OOo/LibO community. It's hardly possible to use LibO seriously without soon running into a serious bug. I'm sure we all have our own pet problems and have found a way around them or have simply accepted them. The difficult is that for the 'normal' end user, the support cost of just one of those incidents is likely to exceed the MSO licence cost. Similar kinds of problems do of course occur with MSO, but my experience in a very large international where I was in a place to see the problems is that they are very very much rarer. Until we put our house in order and deliver a product free of the majority of bugs, for most pragmatists the obvious simplest and cheapest solution is bound to remain MSO. Thus, whatever the protests and lobbying, the bureaucracy will find a way of justifying that choice. From my observations, the quality of OOo has in practice been getting worse rather than better with each succeeding release. It's too early to say for LibO, but I do not see that concentrated determination to address the totality of bugs which would be necessary to make things right. Mike On 05/04/2011 11:22, Kürti László wrote: Charles, I was asking the European members personally! to take something against it. We here in Hungary spent the last 5 years with lobbying for only to let the FLOSS into the public sector. Earlier it was not possible. We had some positive results 'cause we could refer the EU policies. But if the EC don't give ...t what can I say? I tell you, nothing! And really all the national governments will be more than happy to find an excuse not to do anything for interoperability, for standardization and for freedom. If we?, you? (TDF) have the will and members stand behind this case than we have a chance. Yes we must act an intelligent way but first of all we must act. Laszlo - Original Message - From: Charles-H. Schulzcharles.sch...@documentfoundation.org To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 11:16:58 AM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. Hello Laszlo, Le Tue, 5 Apr 2011 09:42:10 +0200 (CEST), Kürti Lászlókurti.las...@openskm.com a écrit : Hi All, Sorry for this off topic but this is serious http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/print/9215419/EC_enters_talks_with_Microsoft_for_new_licenses?taxonomyName=IT+in+GovernmenttaxonomyId=13 If this come true than we (LibreOffice an other FLOSS products) will be down and out, buried by dust for ever, governments do not need better excuse than this. Please make your action today: blog about, send a mail to your member of EP, tell the local media I would not be as pessimistic as you are, the EC is unfortunately a MS shop, but there is certainly ground to protest; I'd suggest you use other, more focused initiatives than this list to take action: http://interopwikiproject.com/public-procurement:ec-pushes-ahead-with-windows-7-migration Best, Charles. Thx Laszlo -- Kürti László Open SKM Agency Kft. 1024 Budapest Kút u. 5 www.openskm.com kurti.las...@openskm.com (+36-1)-788-6556 -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
Laszlo, I worked for perhaps 15 years with various versions of MSO as both a power user and as a senior manager with responsibility, inter alia, for MSO support. I met all the senior international people at the time, from MS and many other suppliers. During that time, whether with short or long documents, I personally came across only 2 instances of genuine MSO bugs. Since retirement 16 years or so ago, I have been almost exclusively using and promoting OOo/LibO. I know what some of the technical advantages are, and I appreciate them. However, each time I start a major new activity or project, I run into a major deficiency or bug which has typically taken me a day or more's work to understand, write bug reports and work out how to get round. Most of those bugs are still unfixed. This kind of 'wasted' effort simply does not occur with MSO, or at least it didn't to me, nor did I hear complaints of that kind from the thousands of end users I was to some degree responsible for internationally. In my professional opinion and with the maximum regret, I do not believe that OOo/LibO has a product offering of adequate quality to be cost-effective in a high-cost labour economy. The support costs are just far too high. Thus, it is my considered though painful conclusion that the majority of IT managers in those economies would correctly judge MSO to be the better option. As I said, I wish it were different, but it is not. We can lobby and protest as much as we like, but in my opinion there is absolutely no chance of extensive corporate or governmental adoption in Western economies until the product is of comparable quality to MSO, by which I primarily mean an absence of bugs. Mike On 05/04/2011 12:37, Kürti László wrote: Mike, Have you ever tried to work with MS office? Have you ever made a doc longer than 10 pages? How many times you had to reedit those MS docs? Just about every time you opened it in a different PC. Pls don't get me wrong, but MS office works just as OO.o or LibO. And this is not the case, but please let yourself off the hook of MS FUDs. :) Laszlo - Original Message - From: Mike Hallmike.h...@onepoyle.net To: discuss@documentfoundation.org Sent: Tuesday, April 5, 2011 1:21:03 PM Subject: Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] European Commitee enter talks with MS licences, Please make your action today against it.
with MS licences, Please make your action today against it. On 05/04/2011 12:11, Kürti László wrote: Even with docx, xlsx format could be read and written by OO.o or LibO (or at least a workaround can be find). Laslo, Don't get me wrong, I entirely agree with all your sentiments. Unfortunately, in practice the description of the situation I gave will dominate. The quote from your email above seems to confirm that even your company has experienced significant end user support issues. I just wish it were different. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Posting guidelines + more: http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ All messages sent to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
On 02/01/2011 19:09, Larry Gusaas wrote: On 2011/01/02 12:47 PM Italo Vignoli wrote: If you want to have a say in software development you are welcome to contribute to the code So only people who write code have a say in the development of LibreOffice? What about people who do the QA? Or the people providing support? (I mainly provide support for OOo, mainly for Mac users) You can take your elitist developer attitude and stuff it. Larry Larry, There is more heat than light now. I haven't counted, but my clear sense is that considerably more contributors to this thread have, however reluctantly, come down on the side of retaining the functionality of writing OOXML. In that sense, a 'decision' is made, even though it's the ESC who ultimately decide. Nevertheless, as you seem to imply, the OOO/LibO development process has always been broken. In an effective development process (eg Firefox), the contents of the next release, including a positive decision on those bugs to be resolved, are decided by a steering committee. Work continues until all of that activity is complete and the release is ready. It is common for releases to be delayed because things are not ready. With this process, releases have very few bugs. In an ineffective development process (eg OOO), the contents of the next release are set in large part by developers setting release targets for the bits of work they choose to focus on. If I understand correctly, the steering committee influences new functionality content, but not substantially the bug fix content of a release. Thus the content of the work, particularly bug fixes, is in large measure determined by developer interest rather than priority or end user wishes. A deadline for release contents is fixed and anything not ready at this date is put back to a later release, even P2 bug issues. Very serious issues are fixed after the chosen date, but nothing else. With this process, releases inevitably have an increasing number of bugs. This is a cultural and organisational issue, not a result of an Open Source project. I hope TDF will recognise this and address it. -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Re: Do not support writing to OOXML format
Maybe saving in ...x formats should be disabled by default so that the user must make a conscious decision to allow them. But to some extent this discussion misses two key points: 1) Application quality The default de-facto format will inevitably follow the dominant application. It's probably impossible to be a frequent OOO/LibO user without meeting serious bugs and having ones own list of things that need to be fixed. I certainly have mine. My professional experience with MSO was quite different, ie almost no troubling bugs. Apart from any other consideration, for pretty well any commercial organisation, the resulting support/user hassle cost of adopting OOO/LibO far exceeds the cost of adopting MSO, even from scratch for a new organisation. To illustrate the problem, you just need to inspect the OOO P2 issues which are regularly postponed release after release. Regretfully, for this reason it is very difficult to claim that OOO/LibO is a professional level application. When it is, many more users will flock to it and the format battle is much more likely to resolve itself in favour of ODF. 2) Chrome OS In 2011 people will be buying notebooks without hard disks running Chrome OS, certainly cheaper including much lower support costs, probably faster too, and these users will be able to work cooperatively with their data entirely in the cloud. Perhaps 90% of users will potentially no longer need MSO, OOO, LibO or any of the associated formats. It's hard to say whether this will be game changing or just very important, it will depend on how well it works in practice, but given the self-evident quality and astonishing rate of development of Google's applications, my money is on game changing. Mike Hall On 31/12/2010 05:21, Carl Symons wrote: Thank you Olivier for jumping in on this as one of the TDF founders. And thank you for helping to make LibreOffice happen. More below... On Thu, Dec 30, 2010 at 6:16 PM, Olivier Hallot olivier.hal...@documentfoundation.org wrote: HI Em 30-12-2010 18:41, Larry Gusaas escreveu: On 2010/12/30 2:19 PM Gordon Burgess-Parker wrote: OOXML will spread anyway because MS Office 2007 and 2010 use this format by default. Nothing you can do about it I'm afraid Yes you can do something about it. Don't enable writing in that format. Use PDF's for communicating. If a MS user needs to be able to modify a document, use .doc format. There is no need to use .docx format. MS Office 2008 and 2011 can still read .doc files. The thing is, *you can* prevent LibreOffice/OOo from writing in proprietary format. This requires a configuration in one of the xcu/xcs config files. Happy new year -- Olivier Hallot If it is this easy to disable selected formats, I ask that the TDF Steering Committee take the suggestions in this conversation thread into consideration. Larry Gusaas has cited some sources (in the thread starter) that suggest that Microsoft is again (ab)using their near-monopoly market position to subvert openness. While there's no need for the TDF to police or punish Microsoft's behavior, there are strong reasons for the LibreOffice community to stand for and protect the open nature of LibO applications and their file formats. There is no reason to support writing/saving as docx/OOXML except to go along with Microsoft's anti-open fraud and deception. Carl Symons -- Mike Hall www.onepoyle.net -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
