Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Hi Ben, Benjamin Horst wrote on 2011-02-18 14.18: I think IndieGoGo would work.http://www.indiegogo.com/ However, the existing donation pages are clearly achieving their purpose already, so there may be no need for an additional platform and its overhead costs. indeed, although - quite natural - the donation flow is slowing down now. I would wait a few more weeks and see where we stand, and then consider other options? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff :: LibreOffice needs your support for setting up its Foundation! :: Join our fundraising at http://challenge.documentfoundation.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Hi folks, Benjamin Horst wrote on 2011-02-08 19.58: My suggestion was to use a personal account to collect and then disburse the income, which would probably trigger income tax, as BRM mentioned in his response. (I don't know with any certainty, though.) Another platform like Kickstarter ishttp://www.indiegogo.com/ According to their site, you can Start your campaign from any country in the world as long as you have a valid bank account. It also lets you collect pledged funds even if you don't meet your overall goal, but it charges fees of 4 or 9% (the higher fee if you don't meet your full goal, the lower fee if you do). Not sure what Kickstarter's fee structure is to compare. I guess it would be best if a nonprofit like OOoDeV would do the thing, as otherwise, tax issues arise and there is no tax-deductibility. If you know of a service we can use as German nonprofit, I'm happy to look into it. :) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff :: LibreOffice needs your support for setting up its Foundation! :: Join our fundraising at http://challenge.documentfoundation.org -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On Feb 18, 2011, at 6:37 AM, Florian Effenberger wrote: Hi folks, Benjamin Horst wrote on 2011-02-08 19.58: My suggestion was to use a personal account to collect and then disburse the income, which would probably trigger income tax, as BRM mentioned in his response. (I don't know with any certainty, though.) Another platform like Kickstarter ishttp://www.indiegogo.com/ According to their site, you can Start your campaign from any country in the world as long as you have a valid bank account. It also lets you collect pledged funds even if you don't meet your overall goal, but it charges fees of 4 or 9% (the higher fee if you don't meet your full goal, the lower fee if you do). Not sure what Kickstarter's fee structure is to compare. I guess it would be best if a nonprofit like OOoDeV would do the thing, as otherwise, tax issues arise and there is no tax-deductibility. If you know of a service we can use as German nonprofit, I'm happy to look into it. :) I think IndieGoGo would work. http://www.indiegogo.com/ However, the existing donation pages are clearly achieving their purpose already, so there may be no need for an additional platform and its overhead costs. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Hi, Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-02-11 07.45: On the EU level. maybe you should connect to Ian, who also has insight on this topic. The only important thing is that you don't do anything on behalf of TDF, because any action might cause consequences right now :-) Getting solely information on possible EU funds, however, is very much appreciated. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On 9 February 2011 18:44, toki toki.kant...@gmail.com wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/08/2011 04:36 PM, BRM wrote: Why resort to deception and Microsoft-esque tactics to promote LO? FWIW, it isn't uncommon for 501(c)3 organizations to have a for-profit organization operating at an arm's length. Microsoft-esque only if you think that a 501(c)(3) organization should pay corporate income tax on all the revenue it generates. And this is very different in the UK. The only companies that are able to allow donations against tax are registered charities so a foundation set up as a company limited by guarantee or a CIC will not get tax relief on donations. They will be able to allow operating expenses against tax which is why there is no tax to pay if they don't make a profit. It's not different from any other commercial venture, usually they just don't pay dividends to shareholders they put that money back into the service the company was set up to support. If a lot of income is likely to come from donations, in the longer term an organisation that can claim back the tax paid is essential but it might be necessary to do something less optimal as a stepping stone to get there. Depending upon how much revenue is generated from sources other than grants and donations, for the US at least, serious consideration needs to be given to establishing a for-profit that operates at an arm's length. The thing is that company law is different in different countries so in a multinational project some account has to be taken of that. It seems, for example, much more expensive to set up a not for profit company in DE compared to UK and tax exemptions seem easier to get for donations in a 501(c)3 in the USA. TDF owe it to its community to get the best working deal that is legal and ethical and that requires understanding of several options without getting sidetracked into spurious arguments based on half understandings and irrational fears about competitors' ethics. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNUuCMAAoJEERA7YuLpVrV0BsH/ioBxAeW0SJtd3bnxdTflxJB cc6/FZHXyVfIoSq/R5etxdNyD06gyUTuO/QFB5UfnNY9ItvijPsO9No9v0GL6Y4u jHl5vT+5NJJyq+RfAjvwRt97w6KNxlyXNJs7vKF86dwvsd0dwbcgw+IoC+K9H+O5 qzU7wntzzrozLKHEu0DsPg2IOxoJS8VJP/aBeeY6C8QCPaGkCrBIx3Es/tODWTc5 ZbbKIzMzyKX6rZmXadzRDOazQ28CkK9ifaFLAEQGkI9nG/vOuqYBgi2xlx7N2/+C f73WUVHtUlFndJkLzKi0zNJPNuw3jytcD2eCavF/c+5+e2olsVeKy4QfZV0dfxg= =BkC2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Hi, Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-02-09 09.53: Florian what i meant was what process would TDF need to take to get funding as an NGO on the EU level, or about what exactly are you talking? Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On the EU level. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Yes they do Zaphod. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Florian what i meant was what process would TDF need to take to get funding as an NGO -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/08/2011 04:36 PM, BRM wrote: Why resort to deception and Microsoft-esque tactics to promote LO? FWIW, it isn't uncommon for 501(c)3 organizations to have a for-profit organization operating at an arm's length. Microsoft-esque only if you think that a 501(c)(3) organization should pay corporate income tax on all the revenue it generates. Depending upon how much revenue is generated from sources other than grants and donations, for the US at least, serious consideration needs to be given to establishing a for-profit that operates at an arm's length. jonathon - -- If Bing copied Google, there wouldn't be anything new worth requesting. If Bing did not copy Google, there wouldn't be anything relevant worth requesting. DaveJakeman 20110207 Groklaw. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJNUuCMAAoJEERA7YuLpVrV0BsH/ioBxAeW0SJtd3bnxdTflxJB cc6/FZHXyVfIoSq/R5etxdNyD06gyUTuO/QFB5UfnNY9ItvijPsO9No9v0GL6Y4u jHl5vT+5NJJyq+RfAjvwRt97w6KNxlyXNJs7vKF86dwvsd0dwbcgw+IoC+K9H+O5 qzU7wntzzrozLKHEu0DsPg2IOxoJS8VJP/aBeeY6C8QCPaGkCrBIx3Es/tODWTc5 ZbbKIzMzyKX6rZmXadzRDOazQ28CkK9ifaFLAEQGkI9nG/vOuqYBgi2xlx7N2/+C f73WUVHtUlFndJkLzKi0zNJPNuw3jytcD2eCavF/c+5+e2olsVeKy4QfZV0dfxg= =BkC2 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
- Original Message From: toki toki.kant...@gmail.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- On 02/08/2011 04:36 PM, BRM wrote: Why resort to deception and Microsoft-esque tactics to promote LO? FWIW, it isn't uncommon for 501(c)3 organizations to have a for-profit organization operating at an arm's length. Microsoft-esque only if you think that a 501(c)(3) organization should pay corporate income tax on all the revenue it generates. Depending upon how much revenue is generated from sources other than grants and donations, for the US at least, serious consideration needs to be given to establishing a for-profit that operates at an arm's length. If you make the connection between the two organization extremely clear, then there is no issue. The deception comes when one organization tries to use the other to say/do something while both are trying to pretend the two are not related. That is what I am referring to. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get a lot of funding from the EU itself. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On 8 February 2011 09:18, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote: Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get a lot of funding from the EU itself. Yes but probably not by the end of March! Applying for EU grants is certainly possible and we have expertise in the field but it is not trivial to either fill in the applications - I'm doing one at the moment for a project to support certification of OOo/LO - or manage the projects. There is generally a lead in time of 18 months and maybe 2 years to run the project itself. On the other hand you can get 300,000 Euros to do it. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Would you like me to find out whats needed to be an NGO Florian? -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On 8 February 2011 11:34, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi, thanks for your contributions, great to see things moving! :-) Well, I think opening an US bank account is problematic at least from the time perspective, but maybe also from a legal PoV - our association might not be eligible to do so, as we are accredited in Germany and have special tax rules applied here. Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-02-08 10.18: Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get a lot of funding from the EU itself. IIRC, the EU only funds existing entities, i.e. they will only fund us when the Foundation itself exists. That is correct. One avenue would be to create a company limited by guarantee or Community Interest Company in the UK - costs about 50 Euro and then use that to raise money to set up the German Foundation after say a year and just transfer any surplus money. Note that for EU grants you have to submit accounts so probably you need a years operation to generate those. So the earlier the better. Of course there are some advantages to having two sister companies since they could be partners in an EU project. That could even be a deliberate strategy. You could then get money for study visits and mobilities between them. Organise a preparatory meeting at one and you have the potential for people from other countries to get paid by their NA to attend the meeting. You could even set up a thematic network with funding for partners to travel meet and discuss things. Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** -- Ian Ofqual Accredited IT Qualifications The Schools ITQ www.theINGOTs.org +44 (0)1827 305940 You have received this email from the following company: The Learning Machine Limited, Reg Office, 36 Ashby Road, Tamworth, Staffordshire, B79 8AQ. Reg No: 05560797, Registered in England and Wales. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
- Original Message From: Ian Lynch ianrly...@gmail.com On 8 February 2011 11:34, Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org wrote: Hi, thanks for your contributions, great to see things moving! :-) Well, I think opening an US bank account is problematic at least from the time perspective, but maybe also from a legal PoV - our association might not be eligible to do so, as we are accredited in Germany and have special tax rules applied here. Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-02-08 10.18: Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get a lot of funding from the EU itself. IIRC, the EU only funds existing entities, i.e. they will only fund us when the Foundation itself exists. That is correct. One avenue would be to create a company limited by guarantee or Community Interest Company in the UK - costs about 50 Euro and then use that to raise money to set up the German Foundation after say a year and just transfer any surplus money. Note that for EU grants you have to submit accounts so probably you need a years operation to generate those. So the earlier the better. Of course there are some advantages to having two sister companies since they could be partners in an EU project. That could even be a deliberate strategy. You could then get money for study visits and mobilities between them. Organise a preparatory meeting at one and you have the potential for people from other countries to get paid by their NA to attend the meeting. You could even set up a thematic network with funding for partners to travel meet and discuss things. Why resort to deception and Microsoft-esque tactics to promote LO? That is all having two companies owned by the same collective would do. So while it may be expedient to setup one company for a short term to raise money in order to convert to the other in the future (no problem), if that is done then the first should be shut down upon conversion. Everything you mention, aside from the deceptive partnerships, can be done with one entity. Ben -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Would it be legitimate and useful for a private US citizen to set up a Kickstarter with the stipulation that the funding would all be donated to the TDF legal entity in Germany? If this approach is sound, then I or another US-based volunteer could set it up. When the campaign finishes and is disbursed, we'd transfer the money to TDF. Clear messaging on the campaign information pages would eliminate any likely misunderstandings from donors and supporters. -Ben On Feb 7, 2011, at 1:35 PM, drew wrote: On Mon, 2011-02-07 at 18:18 +, toki wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/2011 01:27 PM, drew wrote: A requirement to have to have a US bank account in order to receive funds is not the same thing as saying the money must be dispersed in the US only, is it? No. A couple of things to do, before setting up the business account: * Make sure that you really want to have a business presence in the state that the bank that handles the account is located in. * Decide what currency you want the account to be denominated in. (I don't know how that affects Amazon Processing.) ( I don't know how FDIC works for non US-Dollar denominated accounts.) * Verify that the bank is financially sound. (The Federal Reserve Bank is on track to close more financial institutions this year, than in the previous two years, combined.) Good points but I don't see it quite same way, as kickstarter is an all of nothing situation - you set a target and if you hit it or exceed it you get the funds, if not they go back to the donors - so I would say you don't want to setup to do business of any kind in the US beyond the ability to accept funds into a checking account and then later transfer the funds as one lump sum to the proper account for the foundation and close the account. As for the target amount for 100,000 euro with a close date of March 30th, and todays exchange rate or 0.73 it would take $136,166 USD. Given the time frame $150,000 would seem a large enough cushion, even with fees, anyway that's just my quick swag at it. Also - Benjamin mentioned a different site that I have no information on and perhaps it does not have this US - either way, the necessary banking setup and then a media campaign..that is a darn tight schedule. -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity *** Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On 8 Feb 2011 at 9:45, Ian Lynch wrote: On 8 February 2011 09:18, Jonathan Aquilina eagles051...@gmail.com wrote: Is the TDF an NGO. If its based in the EU the organization can possibly get a lot of funding from the EU itself. Yes but probably not by the end of March! The EU spend money on useful things?!!! wow...-- Zaphod -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
Hi Jonathan, Jonathan Aquilina wrote on 2011-02-08 12.36: Would you like me to find out whats needed to be an NGO Florian? what do you mean? ;-) Florian -- Florian Effenberger flo...@documentfoundation.org Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
On Feb 7, 2011, at 9:19 AM, drew wrote: Firstly I'd say - slow down a bit - let this idea percolate a bit. _If_ kickstarter is something of interest then the way to go would be IMO to have German nationals open an account in a US bank, and that can be done. Kickstarter looks like the strongest, but other options exist as well. For example, http://www.chipin.com/ is one I've seen used in the past. -Ben Benjamin Horst bho...@mac.com 646-464-2314 (Eastern) www.solidoffice.com -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
Re: [tdf-discuss] Foundation Fundraising
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On 02/07/2011 01:27 PM, drew wrote: A requirement to have to have a US bank account in order to receive funds is not the same thing as saying the money must be dispersed in the US only, is it? No. A couple of things to do, before setting up the business account: * Make sure that you really want to have a business presence in the state that the bank that handles the account is located in. * Decide what currency you want the account to be denominated in. (I don't know how that affects Amazon Processing.) ( I don't know how FDIC works for non US-Dollar denominated accounts.) * Verify that the bank is financially sound. (The Federal Reserve Bank is on track to close more financial institutions this year, than in the previous two years, combined.) ### If the target is 100.000 €, then it should be a minimum of US$250,000. (This is to cover currency exchange fees, and the decline in the value of the US Dollar.) Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer. I am not an accountant. jonathon -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/ iQEbBAEBAgAGBQJNUDd6AAoJEERA7YuLpVrVSWkH+LQz0jPNQzYFhSyXNwrKXWHM 0IR1bvAt7Q8nn29O8fzV5syT/bwPqrR8HhWn3ReMvqLgVHyT3KvTL5VTo/U03hvy z5Qnlor5iq5lVBJCIyMtbMBSBUdFNGrUcNRdORz8d9E/HP473lYogy7iQCLG7VD/ NMcDLgQrbGWZWKTPSRVuwk3zs3d56JsUWriEvawSrXvd9EOzGeBJfU8/4VlYtMv4 /WPEc/2y9vatiRfQdvNJ3vwgSkJAKRiYJ26FcXFvjdwKsE5UVva2cSr/KoHEY8EG ZKkpTbW1+Qu08oh/RFa6GgNHCvfkH8pDLkE988VaL1RigWclFs03yDfFthU0BQ== =69RV -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- Unsubscribe instructions: E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org Archive: http://listarchives.documentfoundation.org/www/discuss/ *** All posts to this list are publicly archived for eternity ***
