[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 26/08/2011 00:10, Larry Gusaas wrote: Wrong. The issue was having to search through the headers to find if the poster was subscribed or not. There was no indication in the subject that the poster was not subscribed. This wasted much time for people providing support. Worse than that even. User Q sends in a query. Subbed user A replies, subbed user B follows that up, and C then wants to add to the thread to give what he feels is a better response. How on earth is C supposed to find out whether the /original/ poster Q was subbed or not, to be sure that his response will reach Q? Even if he's willing to check the entire thread, he may not have kept the original Q and A emails. -- Mike Scott Harlow, Essex, England -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Am 26.08.2011 01:04, schrieb Sigrid Carrera: Hello Mathias, *, On Thu, 25 Aug 2011 18:33:03 +0200 Mathias Bauer nospamfor...@gmx.de wrote: Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp: Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. [... many true points about problems with mailinglists and new users ...] It would be even better if there was a forum software that interacts with a mailing list in a bidirectional way: best of both worlds. I believe, that Nabble does something like this. And there may be other Forum-Mail-Gateways out there as well. Sorry, for the example from the competitor :) At LibreOffice we have Nabble setup and users can use the forum like interface to send messages to the mailinglist. Replies from others to the mailinglist get postet to the forum too. So everyone can use the system he/she prefers. You do need to register with Nabble before you can post, but that's something you would have to do with a proper forum as well. So no extra barrier. At LibreOffice, each mailinglist has its own forum so you can search just the part of the forum you're interested in. Thanks for the hint. Sounds interesting. Regards, Mathias -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Am 26.08.2011 02:31, schrieb NoOp: And those 'new' users should be directed to a web forum with the option to also use a mailing list instead. This approach (as implemented in OOo) has the disadvantage that the knowledge base is split. If ML and forum used and filled the same archive, we probably wouldn't discuss which one should be used: it would be just a matter of personal preferences. The more I think about it, the more I like that. I participate in many, many mail lists on a daily basis cannot possible begin to imagine trying to do so if all were web based forums. I also eliminate the need to fill my mailbox with messages from each by utilizing nntp via the gmane.org server. That way I can easily search the threads, see the new subjects headers, mark a thread as read if it is of no interest to me, mark threads as read by date if I've been away for a few days, tag threads by headers, and killfile a 'VENDAS - VITALLY' if I wish. Further I can easily switch from this list to the user list, etc., at the click of a mouse. And finally, if I wish to have an local archive of the list, I simply set my nntp reader (SeaMonkey) to download for offline viewing/sorting/searching etc. I can't do that with a web based forum. Sure, experienced users with a capable mail client can do a lot of things with their local mail database. If the client uses a standardized format like mbox, even more is possible as there are a lot of tools available that work on mbox and allow to do things that the mail program itself can't. And developers can even create their own tools. But what about the less tech savvy users, the users for whom the support media are created? Many of them have problems with even the simplest functions of their mail program. Such as? Can you honestly demonstrate a web based forum that the user can quickly and easily do as I do with my gmane.org nntp mail list setup? As I don't know how quick and easy you can do that, I won't try. :-) But I'm sure that the average (and moreover the less than average) OOo user can operate web fora better than a mail program (if they use one at all, many people use web frontends for mail). Add to that the excellent point made by Andy Brown regarding bandwidth/dialup issue. OOo targets all types of users, but is of particular value to 3rd world (includes US areas) users with limited and/or no regular internet connectivity. Thinking about that: subscribing to the ML and getting lots of mails in return most probably also needs some bandwidth. And if you want to search the archive, you have to use the web anyway. Posting a question to a forum and just reading its thread might use even less bandwidth than subscribing to this ML. But anyway, I confess that I really can't judge that as I never have been on dial-up, my first internet connection was DSL already. As a developer I like stackoverflow.com where posts and replies can be voted and posters get credits in return (simply put). Both means can help users to get through the jungle of posts and find the best answer just by searching, not by asking. And posts can be tagged, so you can search for them much better and faster than just scanning subjects. And you'd expect the same new users to OOo to understand: http://stackoverflow.com/search No. :-) This site was just an example that I know where such features are used. Of course it needs to be used in a simpler and nicer way to please typical users of an application like OOo. Many web fora at least have some rating functions already that are quite simple to use. The additional functionality that e.g. stackoverflow offers is that posts can be tagged, answers can be sorted by votes and that posters can gain something like credibility. A lot of things are possible in an environment where the whole communication process is under control of a single entity. E-Mail is nailed to the used protocols and what can be expected in the majority of mail clients. Again, we should try to become more open for new development and evaluate it without preconceived opinions. Yes we should. My initial post still stands: The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Are you talking about this list? I don't think that discuss should be moved to a web forum, I was just musing about user lists. Regards, Mathias -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
In article j375cl$cgb$1...@dough.gmane.org, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-08-25 8:30 PM NoOp wrote: On 08/25/2011 07:03 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: Yes. I went to http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/index.php Clicked on Advanced Search In Search for author: I entered lgusaas (my user name) Search found 816 matches ... Cool. But I think you mean 799: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?keywords=terms=allauthor=lgusaassc=1sf=allsr=postssk=tsd=dst=0ch=300t=0sid=12bcebd36c8e78e2431ba67390c24ebesubmit=Search [Search found 799 matches] Don't you? No. I clicked on the link you gave and it says Search found 816 matches How odd. I , too, got the message Search found 799 matches. R. -- Richard Travers richli...@willowsong.com Truro, Cornwall -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On Fri, 2011-08-26 at 11:06 +0100, richlists wrote: In article j375cl$cgb$1...@dough.gmane.org, Larry Gusaas larry.gus...@gmail.com wrote: On 2011-08-25 8:30 PM NoOp wrote: On 08/25/2011 07:03 PM, Larry Gusaas wrote: Yes. I went to http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/index.php Clicked on Advanced Search In Search for author: I entered lgusaas (my user name) Search found 816 matches ... Cool. But I think you mean 799: http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/search.php?keywords=terms=allauthor=lgusaassc=1sf=allsr=postssk=tsd=dst=0ch=300t=0sid=12bcebd36c8e78e2431ba67390c24ebesubmit=Search [Search found 799 matches] Don't you? No. I clicked on the link you gave and it says Search found 816 matches How odd. I , too, got the message Search found 799 matches. Hi, The application honors the user's access level - if Larry is logged on when he does the search it would include: - His private drafts - His non-public direct messages - Moderator list(s) //drew -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Mike Scott wrote: On 26/08/2011 00:10, Larry Gusaas wrote: Wrong. The issue was having to search through the headers to find if the poster was subscribed or not. There was no indication in the subject that the poster was not subscribed. This wasted much time for people providing support. Worse than that even. User Q sends in a query. Subbed user A replies, subbed user B follows that up, and C then wants to add to the thread to give what he feels is a better response. How on earth is C supposed to find out whether the /original/ poster Q was subbed or not, to be sure that his response will reach Q? Even if he's willing to check the entire thread, he may not have kept the original Q and A emails. I always thought that the mail list should have been set up so that you simply COULD NOT post to it if you weren't subscribed!! -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Robert Derman wrote: Mike Scott wrote: On 26/08/2011 00:10, Larry Gusaas wrote: Wrong. The issue was having to search through the headers to find if the poster was subscribed or not. There was no indication in the subject that the poster was not subscribed. This wasted much time for people providing support. Worse than that even. User Q sends in a query. Subbed user A replies, subbed user B follows that up, and C then wants to add to the thread to give what he feels is a better response. How on earth is C supposed to find out whether the /original/ poster Q was subbed or not, to be sure that his response will reach Q? Even if he's willing to check the entire thread, he may not have kept the original Q and A emails. I always thought that the mail list should have been set up so that you simply COULD NOT post to it if you weren't subscribed!! If a person is not subscribed the message goes to a moderator who can allow it through. Normally on spam is denied. Andy -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Will OpenOffice ever be compatible with Adobe Acrobat? Acrobat does not recognize OpenOffice files. Jason -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On Saturday 27 August 2011 09:47, Robert Derman wrote: Mike Scott wrote: On 26/08/2011 00:10, Larry Gusaas wrote: Wrong. The issue was having to search through the headers to find if the poster was subscribed or not. There was no indication in the subject that the poster was not subscribed. This wasted much time for people providing support. Worse than that even. User Q sends in a query. Subbed user A replies, subbed user B follows that up, and C then wants to add to the thread to give what he feels is a better response. How on earth is C supposed to find out whether the /original/ poster Q was subbed or not, to be sure that his response will reach Q? Even if he's willing to check the entire thread, he may not have kept the original Q and A emails. I always thought that the mail list should have been set up so that you simply COULD NOT post to it if you weren't subscribed!! The issue with that was the newbies that subscribed to post ended up bleating about all the emails they recieved. See how the whole argument gets circular. I have a possible solution. Two lists: * one for regular subscribers where they ask and recieve help from each other. * the other where newbies get directed to post to. On which everybody does a reply all, or the server REPLY-TO: is set to the poster, not the list. from that i thought of another possibility. Hack the server software so that for all moderated posts the REPLY-TO: header gets automatically set to the OP. That would definately improve the situation. -- Michael -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On Saturday 27 August 2011 10:54, Jason Ax wrote: Will OpenOffice ever be compatible with Adobe Acrobat? Acrobat does not recognize OpenOffice files. Will Adobe Acrobat ever be compatable with OO.o? It is as you say, that Acrobat does not recognise the OO.o files. Does Copy and Paste work? OO.o will export to PDF. Acrobat should recognise PDF files! -- Michael -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 2011-08-26 4:40 PM RA Brown wrote: Robert Derman wrote: I always thought that the mail list should have been set up so that you simply COULD NOT post to it if you weren't subscribed!! If a person is not subscribed the message goes to a moderator who can allow it through. And that is the problem. Unsubscribed posters to a mailing list who never get a reply to their question when it is sent to the mailing list. -- _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Jason Ax wrote: Will OpenOffice ever be compatible with Adobe Acrobat? Acrobat does not recognize OpenOffice files. Jason That would be up to Adobe. Acrobat is a PDF editor/creator and it sets the PDF standard. OOo can create PDF following those standards. OOo's native format is the Open Document Format, ODF for short, that is set by the International Standards Organization. Adobe needs to modify their code to import ODF files for conversion to PDF. They do it with MS formats so it would not be hard for them to use the ODF format as well. As long as Adobe and companies like it do not support the ODF format it will be harder for business to accept it. There are work a rounds, one would be to Save-as to DOC format and then import in to Acrobat. Andy -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Jason Ax wrote: Will OpenOffice ever be compatible with Adobe Acrobat? Acrobat does not recognize OpenOffice files. Jason OpenOffice can directly create Adobe PDF type files. -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 08/26/2011 03:54 PM, Jason Ax wrote: Will OpenOffice ever be compatible with Adobe Acrobat? Acrobat does not recognize OpenOffice files. Jason That has what to do with Subject: User related mailing list? You should ask on the OOo forum instead of hijacking this thread. Waiting for a 'forum moderator' to sandbox your post and move to the proper 'fora' rather than replying to a hijacked thread :-) -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp: Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. I think we all should try to become more open for new development. It is clear that mailing lists are easier to handle for the regulars, the most active participants. But OTOH a huge number of users looking for help (if not the vast majority) aren't experienced mail users. The results are known: - posts without subjects - destroyed threads - frequent mails with why do I get all these mails, please help me out of here (and that's just the polite version ;-)) - quoting disasters etc. So many of the benefits of a mailing list are partially destroyed. OTOH most users are used to web fora - and they know how to use them. For many years my answer to the question mailing list or web forum for user support would have been the same as yours - but times have changed and so I tried to find out why I prefer mailing lists over web fora. Remember, we are not talking about technical discussions or developer talks, it's about supporting users that usually just want to drop a question and not join a community. Or maybe, they might consider joining later, when they received a lot of help and started to like the forum. At the end there are only two things that really upset me: - without threads longer discussions are a mess - especially for power supporters it is important to track the status of posts reliably (read status or other markers like important etc.). There are already many fora that support threading, and as the maintenance of the thread no longer depends on the capabilities of the mail clients and their users, they might even do it better than the average support mailing list (IMHO users@ooo is a mess in that regard). So for me the second point (tracking of status) would be crucial: if the web forum was able to support me *reliably* in that regard, I could come to terms with it. It would be even better if there was a forum software that interacts with a mailing list in a bidirectional way: best of both worlds. Please, try to think about your statement again: is it really impossible to cope with web fora? It would be a pity to lose your valuable contributions in case the discussion arrived at the decision to prefer web fora for support. BTW, mailing lists also are limited in the way how you can work with them - you can't offer new features as this would require to update all the mail clients. In web fora everything is under control of the admin. Adding better search options (better than download the archive and search for it) or rating techniques could avoid a lot of questions that have been answered already - wouldn't that be an improvement? We won't be able to add any new features supporting users to a mailing list - web fora can do a lot more and there are numerous examples for it. As a developer I like stackoverflow.com where posts and replies can be voted and posters get credits in return (simply put). Both means can help users to get through the jungle of posts and find the best answer just by searching, not by asking. And posts can be tagged, so you can search for them much better and faster than just scanning subjects. Again, we should try to become more open for new development and evaluate it without preconceived opinions. Regards, Mathias -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Mathias Bauer wrote: Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp: Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. I think we all should try to become more open for new development. It is clear that mailing lists are easier to handle for the regulars, the most active participants. But OTOH a huge number of users looking for help (if not the vast majority) aren't experienced mail users. The results are known: - posts without subjects - destroyed threads - frequent mails with why do I get all these mails, please help me out of here (and that's just the polite version ;-)) - quoting disasters etc. So many of the benefits of a mailing list are partially destroyed. OTOH most users are used to web fora - and they know how to use them. For many years my answer to the question mailing list or web forum for user support would have been the same as yours - but times have changed and so I tried to find out why I prefer mailing lists over web fora. Remember, we are not talking about technical discussions or developer talks, it's about supporting users that usually just want to drop a question and not join a community. Or maybe, they might consider joining later, when they received a lot of help and started to like the forum. At the end there are only two things that really upset me: - without threads longer discussions are a mess - especially for power supporters it is important to track the status of posts reliably (read status or other markers like important etc.). There are already many fora that support threading, and as the maintenance of the thread no longer depends on the capabilities of the mail clients and their users, they might even do it better than the average support mailing list (IMHO users@ooo is a mess in that regard). So for me the second point (tracking of status) would be crucial: if the web forum was able to support me *reliably* in that regard, I could come to terms with it. It would be even better if there was a forum software that interacts with a mailing list in a bidirectional way: best of both worlds. Please, try to think about your statement again: is it really impossible to cope with web fora? It would be a pity to lose your valuable contributions in case the discussion arrived at the decision to prefer web fora for support. I realize you are referring to No-Op's post but think of this, and it has been brought up in several different mailing list. Not everyone has high speed interent access. There are areas here in the USA that are lucky to have dial-up access, so forget broadband. To many people, from web designers to developers think that broadband access is total and covers everyone, it does not. At this time I live where I have broadband access, next week I may not. I remember dial-up and it is a pain when a web page is so loaded with graphics that you can get it to load. Andy BTW, mailing lists also are limited in the way how you can work with them - you can't offer new features as this would require to update all the mail clients. In web fora everything is under control of the admin. Adding better search options (better than download the archive and search for it) or rating techniques could avoid a lot of questions that have been answered already - wouldn't that be an improvement? We won't be able to add any new features supporting users to a mailing list - web fora can do a lot more and there are numerous examples for it. As a developer I like stackoverflow.com where posts and replies can be voted and posters get credits in return (simply put). Both means can help users to get through the jungle of posts and find the best answer just by searching, not by asking. And posts can be tagged, so you can search for them much better and faster than just scanning subjects. Again, we should try to become more open for new development and evaluate it without preconceived opinions. Regards, Mathias -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Mike Scott wrote: On 25/08/11 17:33, Mathias Bauer wrote: Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp: Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. I think we all should try to become more open for new development. It is clear that mailing lists are easier to handle for the regulars, the most active participants. But OTOH a huge number of users looking for help (if not the vast majority) aren't experienced mail users. The results are known: - posts without subjects - destroyed threads - frequent mails with why do I get all these mails, please help me out of here (and that's just the polite version ;-)) - quoting disasters etc. Like our present descadastra-me friend? :-) I take your point. But I have a suspicion his type will appear even on a forum, albeit in a different guise. Saw this on a forum a little while back. The user had posted a question and I guess had go an answer. Well time passed and all of a sudden they get an email about a reply to their thread. They can back wanting to know why they were receiving the emails. But if anyone wants to think 'new development', there's no reason one shouldn't have the best of both worlds. Properly designed, you should have a back-end with all the info, and then web forum, mail list and newsgroup are purely different interfaces to the exact same database. I've no idea if such a thing has been written, but it would surely keep everyone happy. It would be great, but there would still be some one to complain that it was not the way they wanted it. :( Andy -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Am 25.08.2011 19:24, schrieb Mike Scott: On 25/08/11 17:33, Mathias Bauer wrote: Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp: Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. I think we all should try to become more open for new development. It is clear that mailing lists are easier to handle for the regulars, the most active participants. But OTOH a huge number of users looking for help (if not the vast majority) aren't experienced mail users. The results are known: - posts without subjects - destroyed threads - frequent mails with why do I get all these mails, please help me out of here (and that's just the polite version ;-)) - quoting disasters etc. Like our present descadastra-me friend? :-) I take your point. But I have a suspicion his type will appear even on a forum, albeit in a different guise. It's easier to get rid of a web forum: just don't visit it anymore. :-) But mails keep coming to your inbox, whether you want them or not. But if anyone wants to think 'new development', there's no reason one shouldn't have the best of both worlds. Properly designed, you should have a back-end with all the info, and then web forum, mail list and newsgroup are purely different interfaces to the exact same database. I've no idea if such a thing has been written, but it would surely keep everyone happy. Yes, that would be great, and this was mentioned on the Apache dev-list quite a few times. I'm sure that this could be done, but I don't know if something like this already exists. Regards, Mathias -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Am 25.08.2011 19:33, schrieb RA Brown: I realize you are referring to No-Op's post but think of this, and it has been brought up in several different mailing list. Not everyone has high speed interent access. There are areas here in the USA that are lucky to have dial-up access, so forget broadband. To many people, from web designers to developers think that broadband access is total and covers everyone, it does not. At this time I live where I have broadband access, next week I may not. I remember dial-up and it is a pain when a web page is so loaded with graphics that you can get it to load. That's a good point, especially for countries with even worse connections than the average US user has. It's clear that one size fits all is not reachable. The goal is the best compromise. Regards, Mathias -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On Friday 26 August 2011 05:38, Mathias Bauer wrote: It's easier to get rid of a web forum: just don't visit it anymore. :-) But mails keep coming to your inbox, whether you want them or not. But if anyone wants to think 'new development', there's no reason one shouldn't have the best of both worlds. Properly designed, you should have a back-end with all the info, and then web forum, mail list and newsgroup are purely different interfaces to the exact same database. I've no idea if such a thing has been written, but it would surely keep everyone happy. Yes, that would be great, and this was mentioned on the Apache dev-list quite a few times. I'm sure that this could be done, but I don't know if something like this already exists. The issue in the past here was not that there were the two different methods, but how they interacted. I always thought that this could be solved by seperating them apart more. I had another issue: people that insisted (or politely suggested) newbie questioners should join the mailing list to get answers from it. This often resulted in the newbie panicking due to the sudden influx of emails. Really the issue was the person making the suggestion was either unable or unwilling to sort out the diffference between moderated, and unmoderated posters. I am happy to see both method, but i will only use my email thanks. -- Michael -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
NoOp wrote: On 08/25/2011 09:33 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote: Am 24.08.2011 22:47, schrieb NoOp: Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. Mathias, thanks for the thoughtful response. My reply is in-line below. I think we all should try to become more open for new development. It is clear that mailing lists are easier to handle for the regulars, the most active participants. But OTOH a huge number of users looking for help (if not the vast majority) aren't experienced mail users. The results are known: - posts without subjects - destroyed threads - frequent mails with why do I get all these mails, please help me out of here (and that's just the polite version ;-)) - quoting disasters etc. So many of the benefits of a mailing list are partially destroyed. OTOH most users are used to web fora - and they know how to use them. And those 'new' users should be directed to a web forum with the option to also use a mailing list instead. The primary issues with OOo was that users (new or old) were immediatly directed to the mail list from the main OOo support page. Hence we ended up with new users on the list that had no clue that that they were joining a mailing list, or what a mailing list is. To further compound the issue, users were allowed to post without registering (still true today) and hence the 'regulars' had/have to go hunting in headers to find out if the post is from a subscribed list user. All of that is history that we all know very well, so no sense rehashing here. For many years my answer to the question mailing list or web forum for user support would have been the same as yours - but times have changed and so I tried to find out why I prefer mailing lists over web fora. Remember, we are not talking about technical discussions or developer talks, it's about supporting users that usually just want to drop a question and not join a community. Or maybe, they might consider joining later, when they received a lot of help and started to like the forum. At the end there are only two things that really upset me: - without threads longer discussions are a mess - especially for power supporters it is important to track the status of posts reliably (read status or other markers like important etc.). There are already many fora that support threading, and as the maintenance of the thread no longer depends on the capabilities of the mail clients and their users, they might even do it better than the average support mailing list (IMHO users@ooo is a mess in that regard). So for me the second point (tracking of status) would be crucial: if the web forum was able to support me *reliably* in that regard, I could come to terms with it. It would be even better if there was a forum software that interacts with a mailing list in a bidirectional way: best of both worlds. It would, but I've not seen one. Please, try to think about your statement again: is it really impossible to cope with web fora? It would be a pity to lose your valuable contributions in case the discussion arrived at the decision to prefer web fora for support. I participate in many, many mail lists on a daily basis cannot possible begin to imagine trying to do so if all were web based forums. I also eliminate the need to fill my mailbox with messages from each by utilizing nntp via the gmane.org server. That way I can easily search the threads, see the new subjects headers, mark a thread as read if it is of no interest to me, mark threads as read by date if I've been away for a few days, tag threads by headers, and killfile a 'VENDAS - VITALLY' if I wish. Further I can easily switch from this list to the user list, etc., at the click of a mouse. And finally, if I wish to have an local archive of the list, I simply set my nntp reader (SeaMonkey) to download for offline viewing/sorting/searching etc. I can't do that with a web based forum. Here is a sample screenshot: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/screenshotgmanecompopen.png/ I participate on the Ubuntu users mailing list nearly every day. Ubuntu have one of the best web based forums around - in fact I search it for answers (via Google) on a regular basis. However I've probably posted there once, and only login if I need to see an archived message that is not available any longer to non-logged in users. For many Ubuntu users the forum is the place to be they are happy there. For me, the mail list is the place to be allows me to easily answer/ask questions with a nearly immediate reply. Would I abandon helping on Ubuntu were the usser mail list go away? The answer is a resounding *yes*. Instead I'd put much more effort into the alt.os.linux.ubuntu newsgroup (even with it's trolls and detractors), or some other 'unofficial' mail list. So, to answer your question: yes. For me if OOoA goes to web based forums only,
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 08/25/2011 05:31 PM, NoOp wrote: On 08/25/2011 09:33 AM, Mathias Bauer wrote: ... Please, try to think about your statement again: is it really impossible to cope with web fora? It would be a pity to lose your valuable contributions in case the discussion arrived at the decision to prefer web fora for support. I participate in many, many mail lists on a daily basis cannot possible begin to imagine trying to do so if all were web based forums. I also eliminate the need to fill my mailbox with messages from each by utilizing nntp via the gmane.org server. That way I can easily search the threads, see the new subjects headers, mark a thread as read if it is of no interest to me, mark threads as read by date if I've been away for a few days, tag threads by headers, and killfile a 'VENDAS - VITALLY' if I wish. Further I can easily switch from this list to the user list, etc., at the click of a mouse. And finally, if I wish to have an local archive of the list, I simply set my nntp reader (SeaMonkey) to download for offline viewing/sorting/searching etc. I can't do that with a web based forum. Here is a sample screenshot: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/402/screenshotgmanecompopen.png/ Added point on searching vian gmane.org/nntp. Very simple search on your email address appears to first appear in 2005. You may have posted prior to that using a different email address as the gmane.org archive goes back to 2002, but my point is that it is simply easy to search by Subject or Address with an nntp mail list setup: http://imageshack.us/f/571/screenshotrepointofview.png/ In all fairness, I also done one for mine circa 2006: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/sshrinkgmanecompopenoff.png/ Can you easily quickly do that with a web based forum? Gary -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 2011-08-25 7:16 PM NoOp wrote: Added point on searching vian gmane.org/nntp. Very simple search on your email address appears to first appear in 2005. You may have posted prior to that using a different email address as the gmane.org archive goes back to 2002, but my point is that it is simply easy to search by Subject or Address with an nntp mail list setup: http://imageshack.us/f/571/screenshotrepointofview.png/ In all fairness, I also done one for mine circa 2006: http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/845/sshrinkgmanecompopenoff.png/ Can you easily quickly do that with a web based forum? Yes. I went to http://user.services.openoffice.org/en/forum/index.php Clicked on Advanced Search In Search for author: I entered lgusaas (my user name) Search found 816 matches _ Larry I. Gusaas Moose Jaw, Saskatchewan Canada Website: http://larry-gusaas.com An artist is never ahead of his time but most people are far behind theirs. - Edgard Varese -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 08/23/2011 07:16 PM, RA Brown wrote: drew jensen wrote: On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 17:37 -0700, NoOp wrote: On 08/23/2011 08:53 AM, RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Oh, and by the way, it may take 1-2 months to get the new forum setup. See what their reaction is... hmm - no one is saying no mailing lists, it is about how many. Most of the conversation, currently, is about the user mailing list. As for needing months to setup a forum - really? They are on-line today..have been for years. You can even choose which one you want to use, or none. //drew Hi Drew, He was only kidding. I get were he is coming from with it though and wish I had thought of it. :) If there is not some input from those that use the list, it will go away. Andy :-) I'll subscribe add my 2 cents later this evening... and yes I'll be polite. -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
NoOp wrote: On 08/23/2011 07:16 PM, RA Brown wrote: drew jensen wrote: On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 17:37 -0700, NoOp wrote: On 08/23/2011 08:53 AM, RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Oh, and by the way, it may take 1-2 months to get the new forum setup. See what their reaction is... hmm - no one is saying no mailing lists, it is about how many. Most of the conversation, currently, is about the user mailing list. As for needing months to setup a forum - really? They are on-line today..have been for years. You can even choose which one you want to use, or none. //drew Hi Drew, He was only kidding. I get were he is coming from with it though and wish I had thought of it. :) If there is not some input from those that use the list, it will go away. Andy :-) I'll subscribe add my 2 cents later this evening... and yes I'll be polite. Thank you. -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 08/23/2011 06:51 PM, drew jensen wrote: On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 17:37 -0700, NoOp wrote: On 08/23/2011 08:53 AM, RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Oh, and by the way, it may take 1-2 months to get the new forum setup. See what their reaction is... hmm - no one is saying no mailing lists, it is about how many. Most of the conversation, currently, is about the user mailing list. Then they are welcome to come over here to the discuss mailing list which, btw, is already set up to discuss such issues. I've been wading my way through the threads over there quite honestly have yet to decide whether I will add my 2 cents. As for needing months to setup a forum - really? They are on-line today..have been for years. You can even choose which one you want to use, or none. ... Hmmm... OK. It was 'tongue-in-cheek' Drew. I'll not even comment on the Sun-Oracle lists transition :-) But I will add this; if OOoA goes to forums only, then I'll not be participating. -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On 08/23/2011 08:53 AM, RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Oh, and by the way, it may take 1-2 months to get the new forum setup. See what their reaction is... -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 17:37 -0700, NoOp wrote: On 08/23/2011 08:53 AM, RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Oh, and by the way, it may take 1-2 months to get the new forum setup. See what their reaction is... hmm - no one is saying no mailing lists, it is about how many. Most of the conversation, currently, is about the user mailing list. As for needing months to setup a forum - really? They are on-line today..have been for years. You can even choose which one you want to use, or none. //drew -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
Robert Derman wrote: RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. An archived copy of the tread starts at: http://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/incubator-ooo-dev/201108.mbox/%3ccap-ksogauskq+6kchq7oyv-3utjllyzr5xnv53vh+n6y7s9...@mail.gmail.com%3E You will have to go through the thread to find the messages related to the uses@ and discuss@ list. To subscribe to the list send a message to: ooo-dev-subscr...@incubator.apache.org To post a message, if not subscribed it will go to a moderator: ooo-...@incubator.apache.org The main web page is at: http://incubator.apache.org/openofficeorg/ Hope to see you there. Andy I guess that the only reason that I am still subscribed to this list is that I never bothered to unsubscribe. The list that I pay the most attention to now is Discuss @TDF. Hi Robert, Of course that is your choice and not a problem. I was only trying to get the word out that the OOo related list maybe going away if no one speaks up. Andy -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
[discuss] Re: User related mailing list
drew jensen wrote: On Tue, 2011-08-23 at 17:37 -0700, NoOp wrote: On 08/23/2011 08:53 AM, RA Brown wrote: To all Users@ and Discuss@ mailing list subscribers: There are discussions going on at the ooo-...@incubator.apache.org . These discussions relate to where the mailing list are needed are not. We are needing feedback so please let the mailing list at Apache know if you depend on these list for support. If not and are willing to use forums that is also needs to be known. The answer is quite simple: notify all posters in the thread that their current thread all further ooo-...@incubator.apache.org discussions will be closed immediately and transferred to a web forum site instead. Oh, and by the way, it may take 1-2 months to get the new forum setup. See what their reaction is... hmm - no one is saying no mailing lists, it is about how many. Most of the conversation, currently, is about the user mailing list. As for needing months to setup a forum - really? They are on-line today..have been for years. You can even choose which one you want to use, or none. //drew Hi Drew, He was only kidding. I get were he is coming from with it though and wish I had thought of it. :) If there is not some input from those that use the list, it will go away. Andy -- - To unsubscribe send email to discuss-unsubscr...@openoffice.org For additional commands send email to sy...@openoffice.org with Subject: help
