Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
1. I was discussing the idea, not the action. I do not live anywhere near an Israeli court, but that should not -and does not- prevent me from chewing the fat about it. I would not go to a large claim court let alone a small claims court, nor have I ever said I had intended to. You should learn to read better. 2. I have little understanding of the particulars of the given law. In the US it would fail the right to free speech in the constitution, and in Israel probably too. I doubt that in a free society a law can forbid people from associating or disassociating with a particular group or product. In other words, the legal system can't tell me what to boycott more than they can tell me what to support. And if it could, it would lead to brilliant literature similar to the writings of Kundera and others in the Soviet Union - satire, parody, etc. For example, if I am not able to call for a boycott of, say people who believe in (stick your particular group here), I can still write that we should all support this group because their maliciousness, corruption and stupidity would lead us all to a catharsis and is good for our moral development. 3. But on the particulars mentioned in the next part of the thread, a good lawyer or activist will find some member of the affected group who is willing to stand forward. Then proving damages is trivial. It can even be the trauma caused to guy by the boycott, which caused him untold amount of money in therapy. Or that he became depressed upon finding that RMS is a complete idiot, like the guys who find out that Santa is just a fat man in a cheap red suit. The issue is not only who is right, but who has deeper pockets. If you have a right to sue, you do it. The other side has to hire legal representation, and will soon realize that actions have financial consequences. And while he/she is spending his energy defending his action in court, he does not have time to do his original act. Again, I am talking about principle, not about suing RMS for being a moron, associating with morons, or any of a number of things he is or does. Have fun, y'all! On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 10:30 PM, Ram-on Agmon agm...@gmail.com wrote: אני חושב שזה רעיון נהדר שתתבע את סטולמן. לך על זה. נראה אותך. לדעתי, אתה סתם מתנפח. לבית משפט לתביעות קטנות אין סיכוי שתזיז את עצמך. רם און ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On Sunday 17 July 2011, Steve G. wrote: By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? No. It is a civil wrongdoing: You can be sued for doing it, but not prosecuted. (Just setting the record straight). ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source will make news. Z. Now let's observe the flak pattern, and learn who is paying and who of those has a sense of humor. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 2:06 PM, Shai Berger s...@platonix.com wrote: On Sunday 17 July 2011, Steve G. wrote: By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? No. It is a civil wrongdoing: You can be sued for doing it, but not prosecuted. (Just setting the record straight). ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
Not that I was serious, but: 1. What is the free software movement going to do, charge me to use the software? Ban me from using it? Stop making free software? I do not think that Stallman would like that outcome, either. 2. If he is in Israel he is bound by Israeli law. He may even have to come here to defend himself in court. 3. Again, I was making fun, but my guess is that if someone did sue Stallman, it would point out his stupidity to the community, and would probably muzzle him up. The FOSS community, just like most communities in the world, is probably split up evenly about most subjects of politics. Anyone with half a brain in leadership position would be wise to avoid such divisive issues. Microsoft, on the other hand, would probably love to see it getting some PR. Anyone for suing RMS? Z. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.ilwrote: On Mon, Jul 18, 2011, Steve G. wrote about Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details): Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source will make news. Yes, go ahead and sue Stallman - this will make you very popular in the world of free software. And very rich, because after all Stallman is a billionaire with deep pockets, right? And of course, he's an Israeli so he is bound by that ridiculous new Israeli law, right? Hmmm... I think you need to come up with a better plan :-) -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jul 18 2011, 17 Tammuz 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Share your knowledge. It's a way to http://nadav.harel.org.il |achieve immortality. -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 05:08:03PM -0600, Steve G. wrote: Anyone for suing RMS? Nope. Even that silly law only applies to Israeli citizens. -- Tzafrir Cohen | tzaf...@jabber.org | VIM is http://tzafrir.org.il || a Mutt's tzaf...@cohens.org.il || best tzaf...@debian.org|| friend ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
אני חושב שזה רעיון נהדר שתתבע את סטולמן. לך על זה. נראה אותך. לדעתי, אתה סתם מתנפח. לבית משפט לתביעות קטנות אין סיכוי שתזיז את עצמך. רם און On Tue, Jul 19, 2011 at 2:08 AM, Steve G. word...@gmail.com wrote: Not that I was serious, but: 1. What is the free software movement going to do, charge me to use the software? Ban me from using it? Stop making free software? I do not think that Stallman would like that outcome, either. 2. If he is in Israel he is bound by Israeli law. He may even have to come here to defend himself in court. 3. Again, I was making fun, but my guess is that if someone did sue Stallman, it would point out his stupidity to the community, and would probably muzzle him up. The FOSS community, just like most communities in the world, is probably split up evenly about most subjects of politics. Anyone with half a brain in leadership position would be wise to avoid such divisive issues. Microsoft, on the other hand, would probably love to see it getting some PR. Anyone for suing RMS? Z. On Mon, Jul 18, 2011 at 3:01 PM, Nadav Har'El n...@math.technion.ac.ilwrote: On Mon, Jul 18, 2011, Steve G. wrote about Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details): Well, here is your recourse - sue their asses... Finally, open source will make news. Yes, go ahead and sue Stallman - this will make you very popular in the world of free software. And very rich, because after all Stallman is a billionaire with deep pockets, right? And of course, he's an Israeli so he is bound by that ridiculous new Israeli law, right? Hmmm... I think you need to come up with a better plan :-) -- Nadav Har'El| Monday, Jul 18 2011, 17 Tammuz 5771 n...@math.technion.ac.il |- Phone +972-523-790466, ICQ 13349191 |Share your knowledge. It's a way to http://nadav.harel.org.il |achieve immortality. -- Check out my web site - www.words2u.net ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
Re: Off Topic: The boycott law (was Re: Finally - A RMS talk in Tel-Aviv. Including details)
On 07/18/2011 11:06 PM, Shai Berger wrote: On Sunday 17 July 2011, Steve G. wrote: By the way, is it not now illegal to support such a ban? No. It is a civil wrongdoing: You can be sued for doing it, but not prosecuted. IANAL This is one of the most misunderstood laws in recent times. This is not to say it is a good law. It isn't, and one of the main reasons it isn't is because people think it outlaws things it, in actuality, doesn't. So in the interest of enhancing the Israeli democracy, here is my take: He cannot be sued, either. First, it is not the act of boycotting that is prohibited, but the act of promoting others to boycott. This, alone, clears RMS. Also, you need to be the boycotted party. You need to have been included in the boycott not for anything you did, but merely for being a part of Israel in some way. Last, unless malice is proven, you will need to have been financially hurt by the boycott. Malice is not defined by the law, but there is a principle that a law may not be interpreted in such a way that a word or a sentence in it becomes without meaning. Since the law requires calling for boycott, for reasons other than the party's actions, and that the boycott call should have a reasonable chance of being effective, then those criteria may not be the ones that determine malice. Malice has to be something beyond that. In other words, this law is hardly ever applicable, to anyone, and RMS is no exception. (Just setting the record straight). That. Shachar -- Shachar Shemesh Lingnu Open Source Consulting Ltd. http://www.lingnu.com ___ Discussions mailing list Discussions@hamakor.org.il http://hamakor.org.il/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/discussions
