On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 5:22 PM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.ukwrote:
On Wed, 29/1/14, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
That package installation utilities should not dabble in sys.path
manipulation.
The import path is the user's
On Thu, 30/1/14, Ralf Gommers ralf.gomm...@gmail.com wrote:
Also end user.
If, as a user, I want to use inplace builds and PYTHONPATH
instead of virtualenvs for whatever reason, that should be
supported. Setuptools inserting stuff to sys.path that
On Jan 30, 2014, at 1:09 AM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On Thu, 30/1/14, Ralf Gommers ralf.gomm...@gmail.com wrote:
Also end user.
If, as a user, I want to use inplace builds and PYTHONPATH
instead of virtualenvs for whatever
On Jan 30, 2014, at 1:21 PM, Noah Kantrowitz n...@coderanger.net wrote:
On Jan 30, 2014, at 1:09 AM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On Thu, 30/1/14, Ralf Gommers ralf.gomm...@gmail.com wrote:
Also end user.
If, as a user, I
Thanks for pointing that out Noah - I was planning to come back and check
if that wording was considered more acceptable.
On 31 Jan 2014 07:12, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
The updated text is fine with me as it at least accurately documents the
fact that using that
feature is fraught
Donald Stufft donald at stufft.io writes:
1. That unpacking into the home directory is problematic because users
that run services often don’t have home directories. This you waved
away by saying that the home directory isn’t a required place, to
which Jim responded that unpacking
On 29 January 2014 05:52, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Which further shows that at the time it was cool that it worked but that
the weird failures being a reason that Wheel was an installation format.
Having cool features in a format is not a bad thing. Zip imports are
the cool
On 29 January 2014 04:14, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
When this topic came up before, I asked for specific failure modes which
were causing concern, but I never got a response IIRC.
From what I recall, the topic came up before in relation to distlib's
wheel mount functionality.
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
1. It does *not* just use the fact that wheels are importable. It goes
beyond that and *extracts* C extensions to make them importable, too.
That is a workaround for a known and accepted limitation of zipimport,
and as a workaround, it has issues. If
On 29 January 2014 20:36, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
You don't want it to be there, even if it might be useful to others,
just because it isn't useful to you? It's not as if distlib is forcing
that functionality on anyone.
I believe
On Jan 29, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
As I recall, it was in the original version of the PEP/spec and it was
always an intended feature. The wheel file for the wheel project
itself is (deliberately) runnable as a zip file, so that you can
bootstrap into the wheel
On 29 January 2014 10:36, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Paul Moore p.f.moore at gmail.com writes:
1. It does *not* just use the fact that wheels are importable. It goes
beyond that and *extracts* C extensions to make them importable, too.
That is a workaround for a known and
On Jan 29, 2014, at 2:32 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
All of those arguments are against *recommending* directly importing
from wheels. Yes, there are lots of problems with running directly
from a zip archive, which is why the fact that easy_install *actively
encourages*
On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:47 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 2:32 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
All of those arguments are against *recommending* directly importing
from wheels. Yes, there are lots of problems with running directly
from a zip
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 3:41 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
As I recall, it was in the original version of the PEP/spec and it was
always an intended feature. The wheel file for the wheel project
itself is
That doesn't really speak to the fact they were designed for that. If I read
that it looks like some commenting that they are importable (which as it stands
they are) and not someone calling it a supported feature of the format. It even
states that the format is designed primarily for
On 29 January 2014 11:41, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
As I recall, it was in the original version of the PEP/spec and it was
always an intended feature. The wheel file for the wheel project
itself is (deliberately)
On Jan 29, 2014, at 6:59 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 11:41, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 4:23 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
As I recall, it was in the original version of the PEP/spec and it was
always an intended
On 29 January 2014 12:18, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
But more importantly, while I'm against officially supporting importable
Wheels
because of various reasons, my biggest problem is that this was added in
without any chance for discussion.
Fair point. I'm sure Nick did just think
On Jan 29, 2014, at 7:43 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 12:18, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
But more importantly, while I'm against officially supporting importable
Wheels
because of various reasons, my biggest problem is that this was added in
On 29 January 2014 21:50, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
As a follow up, even if this becomes something we document and actually
support, then it should be done in the next version of Wheel when people
have the chance to discuss it. It should not be added ex post facto by
a committer
On Jan 29, 2014, at 7:58 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 21:50, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
As a follow up, even if this becomes something we document and actually
support, then it should be done in the next version of Wheel when people
have the
On 29 January 2014 12:58, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
You can campaign to deprecate that feature *if* we ever want to make a
change to the wheel format that is incompatible with it.
Note that virtualenv uses the ability to run wheels from sys.path. I
don't believe that virtualenv
On 29 January 2014 22:57, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Also to be specific, what I believe should be done is that the change should
be
reverted, and if it is desired that Wheels officially support zip import then
in the
next version of the Wheel spec it should be added when
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:14 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 22:57, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Also to be specific, what I believe should be done is that the change should
be
reverted, and if it is desired that Wheels officially support zip import
then
On 29 January 2014 23:10, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 12:58, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
You can campaign to deprecate that feature *if* we ever want to make a
change to the wheel format that is incompatible with it.
Note that virtualenv uses the
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:17 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:10, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 12:58, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
You can campaign to deprecate that feature *if* we ever want to make a
change to the wheel
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 12:58, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
You can campaign to deprecate that feature *if* we ever want to make a
change to the wheel format that is incompatible with it.
Note that virtualenv uses the
On 29 January 2014 23:31, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Here's Paul explicitly mentioning that Wheels being used with zip import is
an incidental benefit and not a core feature.
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2013-March/020379.html
Donald, I was *there*. I know what
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:31 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:16, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
So basically even though the text of the PEP specifically points out that a
difference
of Wheel and Egg is that Eggs are importable it somehow supports that?
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:32 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:31, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Here's Paul explicitly mentioning that Wheels being used with zip import is
an incidental benefit and not a core feature.
On the one hand, it's easy to see the allure of a zipimport-able format.
Grab a file, import it, use functionality straight away. It has an
attraction of self-containedness. On the other hand, python's dynamic
nature means that things are not as simple as Java jar's as Donald points
out. I agree
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:34 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:32 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:31, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Here's Paul explicitly mentioning that Wheels being used with zip import is
an
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:43 AM, Daniel Holth dho...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 12:58, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
You can campaign to
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 8:44 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:43 AM, Daniel Holth dho...@gmail.com wrote:
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:46 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:34, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
If I'm wrong, then by all means show me where it was discussed so I can admit
I was wrong.
You have the burden of proof backwards there. You're the one
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 8:31 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:10 AM, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 12:58, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
You can campaign to deprecate that feature *if* we ever want to make a
change to the
On 29 January 2014 23:34, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
If I'm wrong, then by all means show me where it was discussed so I can admit
I was wrong.
You have the burden of proof backwards there. You're the one asking me
to break backwards compatibility, and to let people continue to
Nick Coghlan ncoghlan at gmail.com writes:
I believe Paul's concern is with anything that suggests that arbitrary
*third party* code can be run from wheel files, when the reality is
that it is fairly easy to accidentally write code that assumes it is
installed on the filesystem in a way that
On 29 January 2014 23:48, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
So what did you mean when you said We discussed it extensively before
PEP 427 was approved if you're now saying that it wasn't discussed.
Explicitly would be a better word:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 8:59 AM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:48, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
So what did you mean when you said We discussed it extensively before
PEP 427 was approved if you're now saying that it wasn't discussed.
Explicitly would
It may be useful to understand that wheel has *political features* or
if you prefer *setting the defaults based on what we have learned from
eggs*. I don't recommend that they be zip-imported generally
but if you are a consenting adult who understands the caveats you
may do so.
What
On Jan 29, 2014, at 9:25 AM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
It may be useful to understand that wheel has *political features* or
if you prefer *setting the defaults based on what we have learned from
eggs*. I don't recommend that they be zip-imported generally
but if you are a
On Wed, 29/1/14, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Mitre’s rules for CVEs are not entirely obvious to people who are not
familiar with them. Generally if the feature *can* be used securely or
there was no evidence that the author intended that
On Wed, Jan 29, 2014 at 9:40 AM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 29, 2014, at 9:25 AM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
It may be useful to understand that wheel has *political features* or
if you prefer *setting the defaults based on what we have learned from
On 30 Jan 2014 00:28, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
It may be useful to understand that wheel has *political features* or
if you prefer *setting the defaults based on what we have learned from
eggs*. I don't recommend that they be zip-imported generally
but if you are a
On Wed, 29/1/14, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
It’s hard to pin down because the failure modes of zipped
eggs are nebulous themselves.
For instance take pip. I just recently redid the get-pip.py
installer to use a zip file (not a Wheel
I went through this with Chris McDonough back when packaging was
dropped from 3.3, and he really helped me focus on what I found to be
the two closely related core problems:
- implicit sys.path manipulation
- installing as eggs by default
That was due to easy_install defaults being
chosen
On 29 January 2014 13:31, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
Here's Paul explicitly mentioning that Wheels being used with zip import is
an incidental benefit and not a core feature.
https://mail.python.org/pipermail/distutils-sig/2013-March/020379.html
That's quoted out of context. It was
On Jan 29, 2014, at 10:00 AM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
On Wed, 29/1/14, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
It’s hard to pin down because the failure modes of zipped
eggs are nebulous themselves.
For instance take pip. I
On 29 January 2014 14:25, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
What *else* have we learned from eggs?
That designing modules to support zipimport correctly is non-trivial.
And that assuming that things work unless told otherwise is a bad
default behaviour.
That packaging solutions should
On Wed, 29/1/14, Paul Moore p.f.mo...@gmail.com wrote:
That designing modules to support zipimport correctly is non-trivial.
It's not trivial, but it's not especially hard, either. Mostly, it's about
remembering to consider zipimport, since that
On 30/01/14 00:59, Nick Coghlan wrote:
On 29 January 2014 23:48, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
So what did you mean when you said We discussed it extensively before
PEP 427 was approved if you're now saying that it wasn't discussed.
Explicitly would be a better word:
Nick Coghlan wrote:
Otherwise we'd have to define a whole new format for something that
can be adequately handled by a wheel that meets certain restrictions,
and that would be pointless (we already have too many formats, and we
wanted the wheel format to offer a strict superset of the egg
On 30 Jan 2014 07:50, Greg Ewing greg.ew...@canterbury.ac.nz wrote:
Nick Coghlan wrote:
Otherwise we'd have to define a whole new format for something that
can be adequately handled by a wheel that meets certain restrictions,
and that would be pointless (we already have too many formats, and
I noticed yesterday that Nick made a commit to PEP427 that Wheels were designed
to be compatible with zipimport so that you could directly add them to
sys.path (http://hg.python.org/peps/rev/811e34eda04c). I was not aware that
this was the case, and had thought otherwise, and have been telling
I think you're reading too much into that comment. Putting a wheel file
directly on sys.path is no different from putting any other zipfile
directly on sys.path - whether or not it will work depends on the context,
but it's a useful capability if used responsibly (as we do in the ensurepip
On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're reading too much into that comment. Putting a wheel file
directly on sys.path is no different from putting any other zipfile directly
on sys.path - whether or not it will work depends on the context, but it's
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're reading too much into that comment. Putting a wheel file
directly on sys.path is no different from putting any other zipfile directly
on
Donald Stufft donald at stufft.io writes:
I think we need to reconsider this. I cannot stress how badly an idea
I think it is for Wheels to concern itself with the ability to add the
Wheel to sys.path and import it.
I know that people have had bad experiences in the past with eggs, for the
On 29 Jan 2014 11:19, Daniel Holth dho...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
I think you're reading too much into that comment. Putting a wheel file
directly on
On Jan 28, 2014, at 11:54 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
On 29 Jan 2014 11:19, Daniel Holth dho...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Jan 28, 2014 at 7:18 PM, Donald Stufft don...@stufft.io wrote:
On Jan 28, 2014, at 6:38 PM, Nick Coghlan ncogh...@gmail.com wrote:
I think
On Jan 28, 2014, at 11:14 PM, Vinay Sajip vinay_sa...@yahoo.co.uk wrote:
Donald Stufft donald at stufft.io writes:
I think we need to reconsider this. I cannot stress how badly an idea
I think it is for Wheels to concern itself with the ability to add the
Wheel to sys.path and import it.
All of those arguments are against *recommending* directly importing
from wheels. Yes, there are lots of problems with running directly
from a zip archive, which is why the fact that easy_install *actively
encourages* potentially inexperienced users to run things that way is
so problematic.
64 matches
Mail list logo
