Re: [Distutils] Upcoming changes to PEP 426/440

2013-07-04 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 4 Jul 2013 18:52, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > > > * "install": the installation specifier for the dependency > > * "extra": as per the current PEP (for conditional dependencies) > > * "environment&

Re: [Distutils] Upcoming changes to PEP 426/440

2013-07-04 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 4 Jul 2013 21:35, "Donald Stufft" wrote: > > > On Jul 4, 2013, at 7:00 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >> >> On 4 Jul 2013 18:52, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: >> > >> > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: >> > >> > > *

Re: [Distutils] Upcoming changes to PEP 426/440

2013-07-04 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 4 Jul 2013 22:32, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Donald Stufft stufft.io> writes: > > > I would prefer a single entry. It makes the serialization format map to the > > modeling simpler, and I think it's simpler for humans too. I don't see much > > benefit to making it a list except arbitrarily addin

Re: [Distutils] Setuptools 0.8 and Distribute 0.7.3 (legacy wrapper) now released

2013-07-05 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 6 Jul 2013 04:08, "Jason R. Coombs" wrote: > > The PyPA is excited to announce the public release of Setuptools 0.8. This release of setuptools provides no additional functionality over Setuptools 0.7.x except that it no longer requires 2to3 to build/install on Python 3. What this means for pac

Re: [Distutils] PEP 439 and pip bootstrap updated

2013-07-10 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 11 Jul 2013 04:56, "Brett Cannon" wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jul 10, 2013 at 12:11 PM, Paul Moore wrote: >> >> On 10 July 2013 15:28, Brett Cannon wrote: So, at present, if I (as a 100% Python 3 user) want to install a package, I type "pip install XXX". No version suffix. In the same

Re: [Distutils] PEP 439 and pip bootstrap updated

2013-07-11 Thread Nick Coghlan
Users aren't stupid - the problem with the status quo is really that the bootstrapping instructions are annoyingly complicated and genuinely confusing, not that an explicit bootstrapping step is needed in the first place. Cheers, Nick. > > Thanks everyone for your brilliant feed

Re: [Distutils] PEP 439 and pip bootstrap updated

2013-07-11 Thread Nick Coghlan
heres to the Zen of Python, in particular: * Explicit is better than implicit * Simple is better than complex * Readability counts * Errors should never pass silently, unless explicitly silenced * In the face of ambiguity, refuse the temptation to guess * If the implementation is hard to explain, it&#x

Re: [Distutils] PEP 439 and pip bootstrap updated

2013-07-11 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 12 July 2013 15:11, Nick Coghlan wrote: > In particular, it establishes the infrastructure to have pyvenv > automatically bootstrap the installer into each venv, even when it isn't > installed system wide (which is the key missing feature of pyvenv relative > to virtuale

Re: [Distutils] PEP 439 and pip bootstrap updated

2013-07-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 12 Jul 2013 18:36, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Donald Stufft stufft.io> writes: > > > We should remember that in general people have considered PyEnv that ships > > with Python 3.3 an inferior alternative to virtualenv largely in part > > because they have to fetch setuptools and pip prior to usi

[Distutils] Current status of PEP 439 (pip boostrapping)

2013-07-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
related to the packaging ecosystem). It achieves the aim of allowing people to assume some version of pip will be present on Python 3.4+ installations (or readily available in the case of Linux), while avoiding the problem of coupling pip updates to major Python version updates. Cheers, Nick. --

Re: [Distutils] PEP 439 and pip bootstrap updated

2013-07-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
ylauncher over to the PyPA account on BitBucket: https://bitbucket.org/pypa/ PEP 439 is the critical piece, since that's the one that takes the pressure off getting the other components (including distlib and pkg_resources) into the base installers. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Current status of PEP 439 (pip boostrapping)

2013-07-12 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 13 July 2013 16:05, Donald Stufft wrote: > > On Jul 13, 2013, at 1:31 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > I'm currently leaning towards offering both, as we're going to need a tool > for bootstrapping source builds, but the simplest way to bootstrap pip for > Windows a

Re: [Distutils] Current status of PEP 439 (pip boostrapping)

2013-07-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 13 Jul 2013 19:05, "Paul Moore" wrote: > > On 13 July 2013 06:31, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> * bundling a *full* copy of pip with the Python installers for Windows and Mac OS X, but installing it to site-packages rather than to the standard library directory.

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
huge, so we'll need time (or assistance!) to plan in and make changes > like this, if they are needed... > Agreed, I think refocusing the discussion on "What do we need to do in pip?" and "What do we need to do in CPython?" is a very

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
tility scripts. The bundling PEP should also suggest to Linux packagers that pip be considered an essential part of a fully functional Python installation. Exactly how that is handled will be up to the distro packagers, but could include noting pip as a recommended dependency for Python (Debian), or r

[Distutils] Call for PEP author/champion: Bundling pip with CPython installers

2013-07-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
upgrade older versions to the bundled version, while leaving newer versions alone? Force installation of the bundled version? Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 14 July 2013 16:19, Noah Kantrowitz wrote: > On Jul 13, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > On 14 July 2013 12:46, Donald Stufft wrote: > > Either the existing APIs are moved to a different name, or they get > declared stable and pip switches to "internally

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-13 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 14 July 2013 16:34, Nick Coghlan wrote: > On 14 July 2013 16:19, Noah Kantrowitz wrote: > >> On Jul 13, 2013, at 10:58 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> > On 14 July 2013 12:46, Donald Stufft wrote: >> > Either the existing APIs are moved to a different name, or they

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
e without adhering to standard naming conventions or providing an explicit runtime warning to be unreasonable. (and yes, if "pip" goes down the runtime warning path, we should probably look into providing a runtime warning for at least the "test" namespace and possibly even the

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
eeping old APIs around for a couple of years before killing them off once the affected CPython branches go into security fix only mode). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
at we wernt going to have to keep things > around for really long times like python 4 ;) > Even most of the standard library isn't that conservative - it usually only happens when we can't find a sensible place to hook up DeprecationWarning. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan |

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 14 Jul 2013 18:24, "Noah Kantrowitz" wrote: > > > On Jul 14, 2013, at 12:35 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > On 14 July 2013 17:13, Donald Stufft wrote: > > I think it would be reasonable for the pip maintainers to be asked to declare a public API (even if that

Re: [Distutils] Another conversation starter - pip documentation in the Python docs

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
1.4 was out the door, but anyone on the PyPA list on BitBucket actually has full access to accept pull requests, etc. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Another conversation starter - pip documentation in the Python docs

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 14 July 2013 23:01, Paul Moore wrote: > > On 14 July 2013 12:42, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >> This is the hole >> https://python-packaging-user-guide.readthedocs.org/en/latest/ is >> supposed to fill - once it's "ready" (i.e. things have stabilised >

Re: [Distutils] Call for PEP author/champion: Bundling pip with CPython installers

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 15 July 2013 00:28, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > > On Sun, Jul 14, 2013 at 2:13 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> Based on the recent discussions, I now plan to reject the pip >> bootstrapping-on-first-invocation approach described in PEP 439 in favour of >&g

Re: [Distutils] Executable wrappers and upgrading pip (Was: Current status of PEP 439 (pip boostrapping))

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 15 Jul 2013 05:44, "Paul Moore" wrote: > > On 14 July 2013 18:06, Donald Stufft wrote: >> >> Wouldn't a .py file make the command `pip.py`` and not ``pip`` ? > > > Not if .py is a registered extension. What I can't remember is whether it needs to be in PATHEXT (which it isn't by default). The

Re: [Distutils] Another conversation starter - pip documentation in the Python docs

2013-07-14 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 15 Jul 2013 07:45, "Paul Moore" wrote: > > On 14 July 2013 22:36, Marcus Smith wrote: >> >> >>> That's 32600 projects, There are almost 200k distributions. And the main table listing would be "Releases" or "Project Releases". >> >> >> ok, got it. anything I do from here on will follow this.

Re: [Distutils] Current status of PEP 439 (pip boostrapping)

2013-07-15 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 15 July 2013 19:30, Ronald Oussoren wrote: > > On 13 Jul, 2013, at 7:31, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> 3. That means there are two main options available to us that I still >> consider viable alternatives (the installer bundling idea was suggested in >> one of the

Re: [Distutils] Call for PEP author/champion: Bundling pip with CPython installers

2013-07-15 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 15 July 2013 21:24, Paul Moore wrote: > > On 14 July 2013 07:13, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> * ensuring that pip is automatically available in virtual environments >> created with pyvenv > > > Is the proposal here for pyvenv to download pip or to install a local

Re: [Distutils] Replacing pip.exe with a Python script

2013-07-15 Thread Nick Coghlan
nt to make scripts robust, a bit > like -S and -E. You'd think that, but then you'd look at getpath.c and run away (or write something like PEP 432, as I did) :P Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Call for PEP author/champion: Bundling pip with CPython installers

2013-07-15 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 15 Jul 2013 01:10, "Paul Nasrat" wrote: > > > > > On 14 July 2013 02:13, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> Based on the recent discussions, I now plan to reject the pip bootstrapping-on-first-invocation approach described in PEP 439 in favour of a new PEP that

Re: [Distutils] Replacing pip.exe with a Python script

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
er alone :-) I, for one, am happy you opened it now rather than in a few months time! If Paul Nasrat takes up the challenge of documenting all the practical issues associated with bundling pip with the CPython binary installers as a PEP, I expect he will need to work closely with you to capture t

Re: [Distutils] Wheels and console script entry point wrappers (Was: Replacing pip.exe with a Python script)

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
point wrappers if the wheel includes Python scripts in {distribution}-{version}.data/scripts/ (see http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0427/#recommended-installer-features) Now, there may be holes in that scheme, but it seemed solid enough when I approved the PEP. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick C

[Distutils] PEP 426 updated based on last round of discussion

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
ncy should claim that name to define the default provider. * noted that Debian packagers may want to map extras to Recommended or Suggested packages * noted some possible use cases for metadata extensions * fixed and clarified various things in the reference copy of the JSON schema (it could st

Re: [Distutils] Wheels and console script entry point wrappers (Was: Replacing pip.exe with a Python script)

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
dows arcana right without some help. Are we talking about the pip developers or python-dev, here? I think Martin and Brian feel pretty lonely, too :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist

Re: [Distutils] PEP 426 updated based on last round of discussion

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 17 Jul 2013 05:34, "Donald Stufft" wrote: > > > On Jul 16, 2013, at 1:54 PM, Vinay Sajip wrote: > > > Donald Stufft stufft.io> writes: > > > >> So to be clear, this means it's > >> > >> { > >>"requires": [ > >>"foo", > >>"bar" > >>] > >> } > >> > >> ? > >> > >> And it

Re: [Distutils] Wheels and console script entry point wrappers (Was: Replacing pip.exe with a Python script)

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 17 Jul 2013 04:19, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > > > >If I were writing a firm proposal, I'd go for something like entry points as metadata > > My extended metadata already covers this, though I use the name "exports" (suggested by PJE) because you can share not just code but data, and "entry points

Re: [Distutils] Wheels and console script entry point wrappers (Was: Replacing pip.exe with a Python script)

2013-07-16 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 17 Jul 2013 10:03, "Donald Stufft" wrote: > > > On Jul 16, 2013, at 8:00 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >> >> On 17 Jul 2013 04:19, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: >> > >> > >> > >> > >If I were writing a firm proposal

Re: [Distutils] vetting, signing, verification of release files

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 17 Jul 2013 18:17, "holger krekel" wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 07:48 +, Vinay Sajip wrote: > > holger krekel merlinux.eu> writes: > > > > > about existing schemes/efforts. I guess most Linux distros do it already > > > so if nothing comes up here PyPI-specific (what is the status o

Re: [Distutils] Expectations on how pip needs to change for Python 3.4

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
n so many things at once. Cross compilation is one of the things the metabuild system would need to take into account, which is one of the reasons it has been deferred (see http://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0426/#metabuild-system - that draft design *doesn't* handle cross compilation at all) Che

Re: [Distutils] PEP 426 updated based on last round of discussion

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
ng supported platforms 5. The extras system extended across all the different kinds of dependency (so if you don't want to build optional C accelerators, you can express that clearly and skip all the associated dependencies) Essentially, the standard tries to provide a better toolkit for solving these

Re: [Distutils] buildout doesn't work as expected, please help me

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
finally worked. Thanks for the update! Glad you were able to get it working, and sorry for the last few remnants of the setuptools/distribute fork process causing you trouble :( Regards, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia __

Re: [Distutils] PEP 426 updated based on last round of discussion

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 17 July 2013 22:40, Oscar Benjamin wrote: > On 17 July 2013 13:17, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> That said, the new metadata standard does deliberately include a few >> pieces intended to make such things easier to define: >> >> 1. The extensions concept - using a struc

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 01:46, "Daniel Holth" wrote: > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: > > I'm going to be pushing an update to one of my projects to PyPI this week > > and so I figured I could use this opportunity to help with patches to the > > User Guide's packaging tutorial. >

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 06:24, "Oscar Benjamin" wrote: > > On 17 July 2013 17:59, Brett Cannon wrote: > > > > But it also sounds like that project providing wheel distributions is too > > early to include in the User's Guide. > > There are already many guides showing how to use distutils/setuptools > to d

Re: [Distutils] Replacing pip.exe with a Python script

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 05:13, "Paul Moore" wrote: > > On 17 July 2013 19:55, Steve Dower wrote: >> >> > I'm afraid exe files as wrappers are probably the only viable option. The basic >> > reason is that the OS recognises exe files in all context, with no special >> > configuration needed. This is not tr

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 08:18, "Brett Cannon" wrote: > > > > > On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 6:12 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> >> On 18 Jul 2013 06:24, "Oscar Benjamin" wrote: >> > >> > On 17 July 2013 17:59, Brett Cannon wr

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 08:31, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > > > It's good that distil exists as a proof of concept, but the ship has sailed > on the default language level installer: it will be pip. > > I understand that it's

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 09:37, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > > > Technically the decision *hasn't* been made - there is, as yet, no > bundling PEP for me to consider for any installer, and I've decided not to > accept Richard&

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 09:37, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > > > Technically the decision *hasn't* been made - there is, as yet, no > bundling PEP for me to consider for any installer, and I've decided not to > accept Richard&

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 July 2013 10:33, Vinay Sajip wrote: > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > More importantly, it doesn't seem like the PEP process has been followed, as > other proposed alternatives (I mean the approach of "python -m getpip", as > well as my specific suggeste

Re: [Distutils] [tuf] Re: vetting, signing, verification of release files

2013-07-17 Thread Nick Coghlan
r a PEP (since we already have way too many other things in motion for people to sensibly keep track of), but this certainly sounds promising - a post summarising your efforts to date would be really helpful. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisb

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
taller is definitely something we should consider for older versions (rather than updating the CPython installer). Either way, Windows users are used to downloading and running installers to get Python upgrades :) Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 July 2013 18:10, Paul Moore wrote: > On 18 July 2013 08:57, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> Shipping an msi installer for pip (perhaps bundling with setuptools) >> would also be an acceptable alternative. > > > -1. > > I would suggest that this approach, if

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
d will likely never make it to the top, although it may be more practical once pip vendors the bits it needs). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Fw: Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
ajip >> To: Nick Coghlan >> Cc: >> Sent: Thursday, 18 July 2013, 8:41 >> Subject: Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future) >> >>> From: Nick Coghlan >> >> >> >>> Then (help) write the missing PEP! PEP'

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 18 Jul 2013 21:48, "Oscar Benjamin" wrote: > > On 17 July 2013 22:43, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > > On 18 Jul 2013 01:46, "Daniel Holth" wrote: > >> > >> On Wed, Jul 17, 2013 at 11:12 AM, Brett Cannon wrote: > >> >

Re: [Distutils] entry points PEP

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
I actually now plan to make scripts and exports first class citizens in PEP 426, with pydist-scripts.json and pydist-exports.json as extracted summary files (like the existing pydist-dependencies.json). They're important enough to include directly. Cheers, Nick. __

Re: [Distutils] entry points PEP

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 19 Jul 2013 08:42, "Nick Coghlan" wrote: > > I actually now plan to make scripts and exports first class citizens in PEP 426, with pydist-scripts.json and pydist-exports.json as extracted summary files (like the existing pydist-dependencies.json). > > They're

[Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
rnatives that aren't covered in PEP 439 extracted from the list archives and turned into a PEP that compares them and suggests a preferred solution. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
lure mode not yet identified - hence, my questions. I > like to get into specifics :-) I like the idea of switching to zc.buildout style entry points - it makes it easier to get pip to a point where "no setuptools" means "can only install from wheel files" rather than "can

Re: [Distutils] Worry about lack of focus

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
f next year). Posted now, though (I started working on it this morning and just hit send before seeing this thread). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.or

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-18 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 19 July 2013 14:06, Nick Coghlan wrote: > Already done or very close to done (Yay!): > > * improved PyPI SSL support > * setuptools/distribute merger > * easy_install SSL verification > * setuptools support for additional hashes beyond md5 > * pip

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 19 July 2013 18:17, Paul Moore wrote: > On 19 July 2013 05:06, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> * (hopefully) add support for indirect imports (see >> http://mail.python.org/pipermail/import-sig/2013-July/000645.html for >> the draft PEP - thanks Eric for taking this

Re: [Distutils] entry points PEP

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
t;we install this script" vs "we need a script wrapper generated at install time for this"? Not sure, I hadn't even the idea of letting people register arbitrary "we install this script". Heck, I haven't even worked out what I want the format to look like :) I

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 19 July 2013 19:29, Paul Moore wrote: > On 19 July 2013 05:23, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> On 19 July 2013 09:37, Vinay Sajip wrote: >> >> I think the point is that people might be dependent on this >> >> functionality and >> > >> >>

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
of two decades :P Also, if we'd like to do cert verification in the bootstrap script, keep in mind the fact that Python 2.6+ supports executable zip archives, so long as they have a __main__.py file at the top level. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, A

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 19 July 2013 14:06, Nick Coghlan wrote: > Independent activities & miscellaneous suggestions > > * maybe suggest "pip install distlib" over pip gaining its own > programmatic API? > * PEP 8 cleanup (including clarification of what constitutes an > int

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 19 July 2013 14:06, Nick Coghlan wrote: > We have a lot of initiatives going every which way at the moment, so I > figured it would be a good idea to get a common perception of what we > consider to be the important near term goals and a realistic timeline > for improving t

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
particular Python installation remains under the control of the PEP 376 installers (including pip). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
2.0 standard in PEP 426 (ever since Daniel realised that wheels could work just as a well with setuptools compatible metadata as they could with a new metadata standard). Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia _

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 20 July 2013 01:47, PJ Eby wrote: > On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> Right, I think the reasonable near term solutions are for pip to either: >> >> 1. generate zc.buildout style wrappers with absolute paths to avoid >> the implied runtime dep

Re: [Distutils] Upcoming changes to PEP 426/440

2013-07-19 Thread Nick Coghlan
ing able to *explain* the new metadata easily. Previously, merging the requirements wasn't especially practical, due to the requires/may_require split. Now, though, it's possible to merge them and have the keys match exactly with the names used in ":run:", etc. However, I

Re: [Distutils] wheel without console_scripts in 0.20.0

2013-07-20 Thread Nick Coghlan
that's more appropriately handled on the consumer side of things than it is on the installer side. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Specific packaging goals and a tentative timeline

2013-07-20 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 20 July 2013 17:40, Paul Moore wrote: > On 20 July 2013 04:27, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> It doesn't help that the >> Microsoft provided UI for configuring environment variables hasn't >> seen any serious improvements in the better part of two decades :P

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-20 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 21 Jul 2013 04:43, "Daniel Holth" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 2:10 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > On 20 July 2013 01:47, PJ Eby wrote: > >> On Fri, Jul 19, 2013 at 9:10 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >>> Right, I think the reasonable near term sol

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-20 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 21 July 2013 11:53, PJ Eby wrote: > On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 8:08 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> I see it as more useful for making an executable optional by defining a >> "cli" extra. If your project just gets installed as a dependency, no wrapper >> would get ge

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-21 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 22 Jul 2013 01:46, "PJ Eby" wrote: > > On Sat, Jul 20, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > Extras should just be a way to ask "are these optional dependencies present > > on this system?", without needing to worry about how they got there. > >

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-22 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 22 Jul 2013 13:26, "PJ Eby" wrote: > > On Sun, Jul 21, 2013 at 6:44 PM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > > > On 22 Jul 2013 01:46, "PJ Eby" wrote: > >> > >> Now that I'm thinking about it some more, one of the motivating use > >> c

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-22 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 22 Jul 2013 19:12, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > > > On 22 Jul 2013 01:46, "PJ Eby" telecommunity.com> wrote: > > > > To put it another way, it's not "exported only if extra is available",

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-22 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 22 Jul 2013 21:29, "Paul Moore" wrote: > > On 22 July 2013 12:22, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> >> since extras aren't really a thing in their own right (they're just a shorthand for referring to an additional set of dependencies) > > > I'm still

Re: [Distutils] Q about best practices now (or near future)

2013-07-22 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 23 Jul 2013 05:53, "Carl Meyer" wrote: > > On 07/22/2013 06:31 AM, Daniel Holth wrote: > > Yes, extras are *only* a way to create aliases for a set of > > dependencies. They are not recorded as installed. It should make no > > difference whether you install ipython[notebook], look up the > > de

Re: [Distutils] pip - installation of the latest stable version of package

2013-07-24 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 25 Jul 2013 03:30, "Donald Stufft" wrote: > > > On Jul 24, 2013, at 1:10 PM, Carl Meyer wrote: > > > On 07/21/2013 01:38 PM, Piotr Dobrogost wrote: > >> Does pip support installation of the latest _stable_ version of package > >> (for all versions which adhere to PEP386)? > >> Related - "Do no

Re: [Distutils] Shebang lines, /usr/bin/python, and PEP394

2013-07-25 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 26 Jul 2013 10:45, "Barry Warsaw" wrote: > > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA256 > > On Jul 25, 2013, at 03:37 PM, Philip Jenvey wrote: > > >What's the value of sys.executable in the brave new world of distributions > >that follow PEP 394? > > One use case is locating other script

Re: [Distutils] Shebang lines, /usr/bin/python, and PEP394

2013-07-26 Thread Nick Coghlan
private source control repo. Published software is actually the vanishingly small tip of a very large iceberg, especially for languages like Python that handle scripting use cases fairly well and are thus popular for personal automation tasks amongst developers and system administrators. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] Migrating Hashes from MD5 to SHA256

2013-07-26 Thread Nick Coghlan
anishingly small subset of humanity - anybody conservative enough to be running a version of RHEL that old is going to have *very* strict rules about how software gets onto their production servers and are also likely to be using something far more recent to talk to the outside world. C

Re: [Distutils] Migrating Hashes from MD5 to SHA256

2013-07-28 Thread Nick Coghlan
give it a bit to make sure no one does > have an issue with the move. +1, this sounds like a good way forward for the existing PyPI interfaces. We can do something better once the focus shifts from "make the status quo not broken" to making the next generation interfaces a reali

Re: [Distutils] a plea for backward-compatibility / smooth transitions (was: Re: Migrating Hashes from MD5 to SHA256)

2013-07-29 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 29 July 2013 19:38, holger krekel wrote: > Hi Nick, Donald, all, > > On Sun, Jul 28, 2013 at 22:23 +1000, Nick Coghlan wrote: >> On 28 July 2013 20:55, Donald Stufft wrote: >> > Ok so given that: >> > >> > - There's a readably available sol

Re: [Distutils] a plea for backward-compatibility / smooth transitions

2013-07-29 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 30 Jul 2013 05:15, "Donald Stufft" wrote: > > > On Jul 29, 2013, at 2:57 PM, zooko wrote: > >> I'd like to push back on the other risk, that someone might figure out how to >> make MD5 second-pre-images. I don't think this is a risk that we need to >> urgently address, and I've written a short

Re: [Distutils] a plea for backward-compatibility / smooth transitions

2013-07-30 Thread Nick Coghlan
volunteering to do the work needed to improve the Python community's software distribution infrastructure. That's the plan, anyway, even if it isn't always all that effective in practice :( Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia _

Re: [Distutils] a plea for backward-compatibility / smooth transitions

2013-07-30 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 30 Jul 2013 21:41, "Antoine Pitrou" wrote: > > Donald Stufft stufft.io> writes: > > > You don't happen to be a random security professional, you are actually part > > > of that upstream project and you have access to non-public (possibly > > > confidential) > > > data about its infrastructure,

Re: [Distutils] PEP 426 installation hooks and conventions

2013-07-30 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 31 Jul 2013 08:49, "Vinay Sajip" wrote: > > I'm looking at PEP 426 specifications for installation hooks and wondering > whether we need to tighten up the specification a little. > > My concern stems from the fact that hook code needs to be installed along > with other code - at least, the code

[Distutils] Last PEP 426 update for a while

2013-08-02 Thread Nick Coghlan
prime-time yet. I wanted to get this part up so anyone tinkering with wrapper scripts had at least a preliminary scheme to work from, but as per the note on time frames, I don't consider the details of PEP 426 to be an urgent topic for further discussion unless/until it directly impacts next ge

Re: [Distutils] Last PEP 426 update for a while

2013-08-02 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 3 Aug 2013 06:01, "PJ Eby" wrote: > > On Fri, Aug 2, 2013 at 11:27 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > > I pushed a version of PEP 426 with an initial sketch of an entry > > points replacement design: http://hg.python.org/peps/rev/ea3d93e40e02 > > > > To give i

Re: [Distutils] Last PEP 426 update for a while

2013-08-03 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 3 August 2013 13:03, Nick Coghlan wrote: > How about we go with: > > Valid dotted names for: > - modules > - namespaces > - module & name portions of export specifiers > - export group names > - extension names > > Valid distribution names for: > - scri

Re: [Distutils] Last PEP 426 update for a while

2013-08-03 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 4 August 2013 05:14, Vinay Sajip wrote: > Nick Coghlan gmail.com> writes: > >> Just pushed these changes. > > One more problem: the updated pydist-schema.json is not a valid schema file > (it's not valid JSON either- I think there are trailing commas and a > m

Re: [Distutils] What to do about the PyPI mirrors

2013-08-04 Thread Nick Coghlan
g protocol (and perhaps even mention that the current preferred mirroring tool is bandersnatch rather than pep381client), but the CDN is considered to replace the public mirror network and those DNS names will all be retired. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghl

Re: [Distutils] What to do about the PyPI mirrors

2013-08-04 Thread Nick Coghlan
On 4 August 2013 19:18, Donald Stufft wrote: > > On Aug 4, 2013, at 5:13 AM, Nick Coghlan wrote: > >> On 4 August 2013 18:48, Donald Stufft wrote: >>> 5 days ago my branch to remove mirroring support from pip was merged into >>> pip's develop bran

Re: [Distutils] Who administers bugs.python.org, and can we get a notice on the setuptools tracker?

2013-08-05 Thread Nick Coghlan
I filed the request on the metatracker: http://psf.upfronthosting.co.za/roundup/meta/issue522 ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

Re: [Distutils] setuptools' install_script overwrites symlinked files rather than replacing symlinks

2013-08-05 Thread Nick Coghlan
priate here. Cheers, Nick. -- Nick Coghlan | ncogh...@gmail.com | Brisbane, Australia ___ Distutils-SIG maillist - Distutils-SIG@python.org http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/distutils-sig

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