Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Rory McCann]

Hi all,

I'm using the power entrusted to me by the list admins, and choosing the
draft CoC as our official CoC, with the feedback from the list.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity/MailingList/CodeOfConduct

I'll try to enforce that CoC, and only give mod powers to people who'll
enforce it. I'm human, who watches the watchers and all that.

In my opinion the comment from cray33 on SeleneYang's diary entry would
count as sexist, and merit a ban from the list. If I knew their email
address, I'd ban them now.

Rory

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Blake Girardot]

t;- List specific common behaviors that are not okay
>- Include detailed directions for reporting violations
>- Have a defined and documented complaint handling process
>
> Over that, we added a heavy overlay of JoyConf consent and empathy culture:
>  https://github.com/maitria/code-of-welcome/blob/master/coc.md
> Refinements
>
>- After Geek Feminism http://geekfeminism.org/about/code-of-conduct/ and
>Django https://www.djangoproject.com/conduct/, we described the set of
>spaces that our community is active in and to which the CoC applies
>- From @Mathew <https://publiclab.org/profile/Mathew> suggestion of
>http://stumptownsyndicate.org/about/guiding-principles/
><http://stumptownsyndicate.org/about/guiding-principles/> we added a
>list of who the CoC applies to, seeking to level status
>- @Klie <https://publiclab.org/profile/Klie> designed the reporting
>process via anonymous online submission form, and converted the list of
>unwanted behaviors to "Do's and Don'ts": https://goo.gl/forms/
>Ma6lEkZ0TuE7D9FZ2 (updated for 2017)
>- @Kanarinka <https://publiclab.org/profile/Kanarinka> wrote in our
>existing practice of checking in before posting people on social media
>- Potentially unique to Public Lab, we created a dual moderators group
>and facilitation group which cannot entirely be described by an
>online/offline dichotomy. The Addendum clarifies that staff of the
>non-profit are additionally bound by their Employment handbooks which meet
>federal and state laws.
>- Generally, a lot of solid and clarifying editing by Nick, Shannon,
>Klie, Carla and Public Lab staffers, and the organizers.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> +1 336-269-1539 <(336)%20269-1539> / @lizbarry
> <http://twitter.com/lizbarry> / lizbarry.net
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Sérgio V. <svo...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I agree with this CoC, think it's pretty sufficient. Thanks.
>> Also agree with Blake, I would consider adding to the draft "Offensive
>> comments related to..." something like "national origin, cultural
>> affiliation", as well as "ethnicity", "language", "level of
>> instruction".
>> Things in which people find consists the very being of any people,
>> perhaps could be added; any offensive comments related to the being
>> of someone, its value.
>> And the sort of positive acts that are welcome.
>> I think perhaps the draft could be considered as a CoC already in use
>> here, if it would be needed to invoke it.
>> Any improvements or adjusts could be done on the going.
>> Also, diversity talks lay not only in preventive instances, that
>> instance being assured is good, lay in many subjects related to diversity
>> of people and initiatives too.
>>
>> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>>
>> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
>>
>> --
>> *De:* Rory McCann <r...@technomancy.org>
>> *Enviado:* quinta-feira, 1 de março de 2018 15:53
>> *Para:* Blake Girardot; Paul Norman
>> *Cc:* OSM Diversity
>> *Assunto:* Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this
>> list
>>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I have put the GF one as a draft on the OSM wiki:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity/MailingList/
>> CodeOfConduct
>>
>> Feel free to edit it as appropriate. At some point I'll go through and
>> add the suggestions.
>>
>> On 28/02/18 15:27, Blake Girardot wrote:
>> > From my perspective, and I am not sure why it is left out of
>> > geekfeminism's policy is that item one under "Harassment includes"
>> > should list "national origin, cultural affiliation" to address the
>> > issue of people making offensive comments about people from
>> > particular countries or cultures.
>>
>> Agreed. "national origin" has been included in anti-racism laws in the
>> UK since the 1960s.
>>
>> > We might even include something like "OpenStreetMap participation
>> > style" in that list so we do not have to tolerate disparaging remarks
>> > about remote mappers, craft mappers, newbie mappers or folks that
>> > participate through non-mapping contributions.
>>
>> Broadly in favour. Ilya Zverik said:
>>
>> > OpenStreetMap needs everything. More editors, more tutorials, more >
>> > rendering styles, more mappers, more software. Anyone has something
>> > to contribute, a

Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Liz Barry]

rifying editing by Nick, Shannon,
   Klie, Carla and Public Lab staffers, and the organizers.





--

+1 336-269-1539 / @lizbarry <http://twitter.com/lizbarry> / lizbarry.net



On Sat, Mar 3, 2018 at 9:58 AM, Sérgio V. <svo...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> I agree with this CoC, think it's pretty sufficient. Thanks.
> Also agree with Blake, I would consider adding to the draft "Offensive
> comments related to..." something like "national origin, cultural
> affiliation", as well as "ethnicity", "language", "level of instruction".
> Things in which people find consists the very being of any people,
> perhaps could be added; any offensive comments related to the being
> of someone, its value.
> And the sort of positive acts that are welcome.
> I think perhaps the draft could be considered as a CoC already in use
> here, if it would be needed to invoke it.
> Any improvements or adjusts could be done on the going.
> Also, diversity talks lay not only in preventive instances, that
> instance being assured is good, lay in many subjects related to diversity
> of people and initiatives too.
>
> - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
>
> Sérgio - http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/smaprs
>
> ----------
> *De:* Rory McCann <r...@technomancy.org>
> *Enviado:* quinta-feira, 1 de março de 2018 15:53
> *Para:* Blake Girardot; Paul Norman
> *Cc:* OSM Diversity
> *Assunto:* Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list
>
> Hi all,
>
> I have put the GF one as a draft on the OSM wiki:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity/
> MailingList/CodeOfConduct
>
> Feel free to edit it as appropriate. At some point I'll go through and
> add the suggestions.
>
> On 28/02/18 15:27, Blake Girardot wrote:
> > From my perspective, and I am not sure why it is left out of
> > geekfeminism's policy is that item one under "Harassment includes"
> > should list "national origin, cultural affiliation" to address the
> > issue of people making offensive comments about people from
> > particular countries or cultures.
>
> Agreed. "national origin" has been included in anti-racism laws in the
> UK since the 1960s.
>
> > We might even include something like "OpenStreetMap participation
> > style" in that list so we do not have to tolerate disparaging remarks
> > about remote mappers, craft mappers, newbie mappers or folks that
> > participate through non-mapping contributions.
>
> Broadly in favour. Ilya Zverik said:
>
> > OpenStreetMap needs everything. More editors, more tutorials, more >
> > rendering styles, more mappers, more software. Anyone has something
> > to contribute, although most don’t know what to do.
> http://blog.opencagedata.com/post/openstreetmap-interview-
> ilya-zverev-level0
>
> Is there a chance a broad wording could be interpreted as "Don't
> criticize reckless, bad faith, mapping *ever*"? 樂 I wouldn't want that.
>
> > And I would change or add to the first line "Offensive or
> > disparaging comments..." because "disparaging" or "derogatory" are
> > open to much less debate than the very subjective "offensive". How
> > many endless discussions will there be (or have their been) about
> > what is offensive as opposed to the somewhat easier to identify,
> > disparaging or derogatory comment.
>
> Agreed. "offensive" is vague and can be used against marginalized people
> (e.g. "LGBTQ rights are offensive my sincerely held religious beliefs").
> Usually I use "harmful", but those work too.
>
> On 01/03/18 19:13, Paul Norman wrote:
> > A couple of issues I would consider if I were doing the selection
> > again are readability and education or socioeconomic status.
> Classism is a harmful thing, so I agree we should put that in.
>
> Better readability makes it easier for non-native English speakers.
>
>
> Rory
>
> ___
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> Contact the mods (private): diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>
> ___
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> Contact the mods (private): diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>
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Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Kristin Bott]

Hi all --

On the OSGeo side of things, we put a bunch of work into creating a CoC
(and related committee, private listserv, reporting structure, etc) a few
years ago. The text of the CoC itself was based off of a variety of things
from different online communities / tech groups / feminism groups / etc.

CoC is here:: http://www.osgeo.org/code_of_conduct/

... if you'd like more fodder for discussion. Happy to talk about any of
this more if that's helpful; feel free to reach out.

cheers -
-kristin/k.bott

portland, oregon, USA

On Thu, Mar 1, 2018 at 9:26 AM, Selene Yang  wrote:

> After having a share of the results from the international gender
> representation survey from Geochicas, we've come to a conclusion that at
> least 7 out of 10 contributors believe in the need of implementing a CoC in
> OSM in general, not only in specific lists.
>
> Sele.
>
> 2018-03-01 6:19 GMT-06:00 Ilya Zverev :
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm a moderator on the Russian forum. A year ago I introduced CoC (called
>> "rules", but technically it's CoC). I based these on several examples, like
>> the Django one, translated and adapted to Russia. There was a huge backlash
>> from some members, angry posts on the OSM diary appear to this day. But
>> despite several reports to forum admins and to OSMF working groups, CoC
>> still stands.
>>
>> Obviously at first it lead to some temporary bans, but with time there
>> are zero users banned, and everyone is pretty polite and constructive.
>> Which is a visible difference to how the forum was before me. The amount of
>> discussions decreased, but the quality, in my opinion, rose.
>>
>> To me, there are two important conditions for CoC to succeed: cutting
>> users slack (we have "one warning" policy + these expire after a time) and
>> being strict in enforcing the CoC (banning multiple users at once if
>> needed).
>>
>> So, I think to install CoC the moderator should just go and do it, and
>> worry about technicalities later. If somebody does not like being in a
>> space with CoC, they can choose any of the remaining hundred of mailing
>> lists.
>>
>> Ilya
>>
>> > 1 марта 2018 г., в 15:04, Jo Walsh  написал(а):
>> >
>> > Hi folks. I'm glad of this forum to reboot this discussion.
>> >
>> > From my POV the Code of Conduct is boilerplate and should include the
>> minimum necessary in order to be both accepted and effective. For better or
>> worse the absence of a CoC has become a signpost that an online community
>> is not welcoming.
>> >
>> > When the CoC discussion blew up on the OSMF-talk list last year I tried
>> to read the background and liked what I saw at:
>> > https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/
>> master/CODE_OF_CONDUCT.md
>> >
>> > It derives from the Go community, which lifted from Django and Rust,
>> which were inspired by GeekFeminism efforts. The wording is pretty minimal
>> and I like the initial emphasis on the positive.
>> >
>> >> We might even include something like "OpenStreetMap participation
>> style" in
>> >> that list so we do not have to tolerate disparaging remarks about
>> remote
>> >> mappers, craft mappers, newbie mappers or folks that participate
>> through
>> >> non-mapping contributions.
>> >
>> > Imo this would be walking into a minefield, encourage accusations of
>> tone policing.  The emphasis on having to spell out all kinds of
>> unacceptable behaviour, as you note below, is to avoid a lot of contentious
>> discussion about what is acceptable; it's the long discussion rather than
>> any initial incident which will repel people or burn them out.
>> >
>> > I think contribution styles are not in scope here. OSM friends have
>> wondered "why do we not include positive attributes that mappers should
>> have, such as emphasis on surveying, no trespassing, etc" but an effort to
>> get the wording right / get enough eyes and minds on the description of
>> values, would just further delay the sensible adoption of a baseline CoC
>> >
>> >> How many endless discussions
>> >> will there be (or have their been) about what is offensive as opposed
>> to
>> >> the somewhat easier to identify, disparaging or derogatory comment.
>> >
>> > Historically there has been a mailing list CoC but i dont think it had
>> enough input to get adoption, it's narrow in scope and overly specific, it
>> would be great if an effort here could trickle up into something OSMF as a
>> whole could adopt
>> > https://github.com/mvexel/CoC-mailing-lists/blob/master/code
>> _of_conduct.md
>> >
>> > Lots more to discuss but i'll leave it here :D
>> >
>> >
>> > Jo
>> >
>> > ___
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>> > Code of Conduct: TBD
>> > Contact the mods (private): diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> > (_internal_name)s
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> Contact the mods (private): 

Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Rory McCann]

Hi all,

I have put the GF one as a draft on the OSM wiki:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Diversity/MailingList/CodeOfConduct

Feel free to edit it as appropriate. At some point I'll go through and
add the suggestions.

On 28/02/18 15:27, Blake Girardot wrote:
> From my perspective, and I am not sure why it is left out of 
> geekfeminism's policy is that item one under "Harassment includes" 
> should list "national origin, cultural affiliation" to address the
> issue of people making offensive comments about people from
> particular countries or cultures.

Agreed. "national origin" has been included in anti-racism laws in the
UK since the 1960s.

> We might even include something like "OpenStreetMap participation
> style" in that list so we do not have to tolerate disparaging remarks
> about remote mappers, craft mappers, newbie mappers or folks that
> participate through non-mapping contributions.

Broadly in favour. Ilya Zverik said:

> OpenStreetMap needs everything. More editors, more tutorials, more >
> rendering styles, more mappers, more software. Anyone has something
> to contribute, although most don’t know what to do.
http://blog.opencagedata.com/post/openstreetmap-interview-ilya-zverev-level0

Is there a chance a broad wording could be interpreted as "Don't
criticize reckless, bad faith, mapping *ever*"? 樂 I wouldn't want that.

> And I would change or add to the first line "Offensive or
> disparaging comments..." because "disparaging" or "derogatory" are
> open to much less debate than the very subjective "offensive". How
> many endless discussions will there be (or have their been) about
> what is offensive as opposed to the somewhat easier to identify,
> disparaging or derogatory comment.

Agreed. "offensive" is vague and can be used against marginalized people
(e.g. "LGBTQ rights are offensive my sincerely held religious beliefs").
Usually I use "harmful", but those work too.

On 01/03/18 19:13, Paul Norman wrote:
> A couple of issues I would consider if I were doing the selection
> again are readability and education or socioeconomic status.
Classism is a harmful thing, so I agree we should put that in.

Better readability makes it easier for non-native English speakers.


Rory

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Paul Norman]

On 2/28/2018 2:44 AM, Rory McCann wrote:

Hi all,

To follow up on the phone call, and waiting a little bit for people to
join. 

I think this list should have a Code of Conduct. I propose something
like Geek Feminism's one. Thoughts?

http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Community_anti-harassment/Policy


I see nothing wrong with a mailing list deciding on rules for how they 
moderate themselves. Before setting rules, it's important to identify 
what behavior is an issue. With OpenStreetMap Carto's (osm-carto) Code 
of Conduct, I wanted to start with text that covered derailing topics, 
including by taking issues off-topic. osm-carto went with a CoC based on 
that of Go.[1]


The other codes of conduct that made my list for consideration were 
those from Debian, FreeBSD, Go, Joomla, Puppet, GNOME, Julia, and KDE. A 
downside to this list is that they're all software development related 
projects. OpenStreetMap Carto is similar to one[2], but OpenStreetMap 
isn't a software project. I would want to also consider what other 
non-software volunteer groups are doing. Some that kind to mine are 
cycling associations, ramblers, and other groups which OSM has a strong 
tie to.


A couple of issues I would consider if I were doing the selection again 
are readability and education or socioeconomic status. Readability is a 
big problem with many codes of conduct. The Go CoC comes with a score of 
11-13,[3] and I'd want 8-10 at most. This is better than the Geek 
Feminism one, which scores 13-15 and uses a lot of jargon.


For education and socioeconomic status, I can't say it any better than 
Richard Fairhurst did [4]:


Volunteer communities in general, and open source software in 
particular, can be unwelcoming places for people from poorer 
backgrounds or without a university/college education. Wealthy, 
educated people - which most open source contributors are - can easily 
dismiss contributions from such users through rhetorical skill, 
through sniping on grammar/spelling etc., and through belitting their 
concerns as not representative of the empowered, educated group.


Increasingly I have noticed that contributors from these [areas where 
residents have typically benefited from as good an education, and have 
less well-paying jobs] find it hard to articulate their views on the 
site without being shot down by the wealthier, more educated majority. 
This might take the form of the majority criticising minority 
contributors over minutiae (small sincerely-believed factual 
inaccuracies, grammar/spelling); or a deliberate unwillingness to 
tolerate assumptions that differ from the majority; or constructing 
means of engagement/consultation that are less open to those from 
poorer backgrounds (evening meetings arranged which are effectively 
closed to those unable to get childcare, etc.).


My open-source background is largely in the OpenStreetMap project 
where there has been a fair amount of academic research done into 
contributor biases (particularly, though not entirely, through the 
work of Professor Muki Haklay). The result of such bias is easy to 
visualise in OSM: wealthy areas such as London or San Francisco are 
mapped in much more detail than poorer areas such as the Welsh Valleys 
or the rural American Midwest. However, although the prevailing 
open-source narrative has led to a fair amount of (welcome) discussion 
as to how we can welcome and help those groups traditionally 
considered marginalised in technology, there has been little or no 
thought given to how we make ourselves more welcoming to poorer or 
less well educated people. Indeed, there are instances of where such 
contributors have received a hostile reception on the project's 
communication channels (mailing lists, on-site discussions).



[1]: The reporting mechanisms weren't suitable for a small project
[2]: It's style development, but we communicate over issues, pull 
requests, and similar means.
[3]: Sometimes called grade level, but that leads people to bad 
assumptions about what level of education is needed to understand a 
piece of text

[4]: https://github.com/ContributorCovenant/contributor_covenant/pull/491

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[Rebecca Firth]

Hi,

I also very much support a CoC and like this format.

Rebecca

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 8:56 AM, alyssa wright 
wrote:

> I support a CoC and very much like the Geek Feminism format.
>
> Thanks all! Looking forward to further discussion.
>
> Best,
> Alyssa.
>
> On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:44 AM, Rory McCann  wrote:
>
>> Hi all,
>>
>> To follow up on the phone call, and waiting a little bit for people to
>> join. 
>>
>> I think this list should have a Code of Conduct. I propose something
>> like Geek Feminism's one. Thoughts?
>>
>> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Community_anti-harassment/Policy
>>
>> If/When anyone else volunteers to mod this list, I'll add them. Just
>> email me.
>>
>> I'm new to running a mailman list, but I think if you email
>> diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org that will only go to the list
>> mods (and the emails aren't public). This can function as a private "mod
>> list", or report system.
>>
>> There some moderation features with mailman (this software), everything
>> is still on the default settings (I think). Feel free to suggest
>> improvements.
>>
>> Rory
>>
>> ___
>> Diversity-talk mailing list
>> Code of Conduct: TBD
>> Contact the mods (private): diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org
>> (_internal_name)s
>>
>
>
> ___
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> Contact the mods (private): diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org
> (_internal_name)s
>
>


-- 
*Rebecca Firth*
Community and Partnerships Manager
rebecca.fi...@hotosm.org 
@RebeccaFirthy

*Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team*
*Using OpenStreetMap for Humanitarian Response & Economic Development*

You can #mapthedifference today! Donate.hotosm.org

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Re: [Diversity-talk] Code of Conduct & Moderation for this list

[alyssa wright]

I support a CoC and very much like the Geek Feminism format.

Thanks all! Looking forward to further discussion.

Best,
Alyssa.

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 5:44 AM, Rory McCann  wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> To follow up on the phone call, and waiting a little bit for people to
> join. 
>
> I think this list should have a Code of Conduct. I propose something
> like Geek Feminism's one. Thoughts?
>
> http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/Community_anti-harassment/Policy
>
> If/When anyone else volunteers to mod this list, I'll add them. Just
> email me.
>
> I'm new to running a mailman list, but I think if you email
> diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org that will only go to the list
> mods (and the emails aren't public). This can function as a private "mod
> list", or report system.
>
> There some moderation features with mailman (this software), everything
> is still on the default settings (I think). Feel free to suggest
> improvements.
>
> Rory
>
> ___
> Diversity-talk mailing list
> Code of Conduct: TBD
> Contact the mods (private): diversity-talk-ow...@openstreetmap.org
> (_internal_name)s
>
___
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