Re: Development GUI

[Alec Taylor]

Hi Timothy,

Not sure where you're going with this… but sounds interesting.

[watching] -> looking forward to some sample code + whatever in the Readme
:)

On Fri, Sep 7, 2012 at 11:38 AM, Timothy Clemans
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm developing a web-based development GUI for Django. See
> https://github.com/timothyclemans/djangomodelcg for a simple code
> generator for models I wrote today.
>
> Should I develop this for inclusion in Django, fork of Django, or third
> party library?
>
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Re: Multi-tenant Django

[Alec Taylor]

Thanks Anthony,

Looking forward to seeing your results :)

On Tue, May 15, 2012 at 7:30 PM, Anthony Briggs
<anthony.bri...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi Alec,
>
> One of the science experiments on my todo list is to try and set up one of
> the fancy new database routers (possibly with get_current_site() or
> similar) and see if I can serve multiple sites+databases from the same
> Django instance.
>
> Not sure if that helps, or even it it'll work, but if it does it might do
> what you need.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Anthony
>
> On 9 May 2012 13:02, Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Dear Django-developers,
>>
>> I've been using Django for a few months now, and recently—for
>> different projects—started using the web-framework: web2py[1], and the
>> Django project: mezzanine[2].
>>
>> Both advertise as being multi-tenant solutions[3][4].
>>
>> Would it be possible to extend Django to meet this use-case? — Or have
>> I overlooked something and is this possible already?
>>
>> Thanks for all information,
>>
>> Alec Taylor
>>
>> [1] http://www.web2py.com/
>> [2] http://mezzanine.jupo.org/
>> [3] https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/mezzanine-users/4XPe5MaD4Fw
>> [4] PyCon 2012 talk: http://youtu.be/M5IPlMe83yI?t=5m32s
>> http://dl.dropbox.com/u/18065445/Slides/PySFTalkSlides.pdf (slide42,
>> see yt for more info)
>>
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Re: Redesign of djangoproject.com?

[Alec Taylor]

I quite like that last one (on Google Docs)

Only caveat is the way sites that use Django are listed.

It seems quite pedestrian... maybe add big image logos or whatnot...
advertising that Bitbucket, Instagram and The Washington Post use
Django is the easiest way to make people consider Django.

On Thu, May 3, 2012 at 2:22 AM, Hooshyar Naraghi  wrote:
> Hello all,
>
> I would like to share yet another design for the Django Project web site.
> First, I jump in with the design, and at the end I'll say a little about my
> background.
>
> First, the design.
>
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9D91R1_2bXLd0dKM21tOUVRRjQ
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9D91R1_2bXLT3ZrTnNUX0syeUU
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9D91R1_2bXLSGlzX0hmRGtxZWc
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9D91R1_2bXLNWp4eXNtM3VsOVk
> https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B9D91R1_2bXLejAzdFJyNlF4MUU
>
> The only difference in the above screenshots is to show case the different
> "points of entry" (POE, aka "call to action") in the block "I am a "
> This is one way to direct different types of visitors. We tried "I am a..."
> functionality last year, when my business redesigned the web site of the NGO
> VIA Programs (http://www.VIAPrograms.org). The web site is visited by
> different kinds of people. In addition to explicit POE on the web site, (you
> see the three POE at the top, which open a drop-down panel), we also
> implemented an "I am a..." (you can find it on the Search drop-down panel).
> My client is happy with this implementation, as they really service
> different interests within their organization. I should add the disclaimer I
> saw this "I am a..." on a web site many moons ago, but I didn't bother to
> record it. So, I am inspired by it (Dana, yes, we steal great ideas, and why
> not) and have used it on web sites that can really leverage it.
>
> My design is straightforward, but I would like to point out that the main
> block is going to show a rotating slide presentation, if it doesn't look
> evident on this non-interactive screenshot. Each slide could emphasize one
> aspect of Django. For example, a video clip can be placed on one of the
> slides, and so on. Second, for this submission, I didn't pay attention to
> the content on the slide. I simply copied text from the current web site.
>
> As others who kindly submitted their designs, I would love to read your
> feedback and will be glad to post any revision.
>
> About
>
> I run and own a small web app development business. We are a pure
> Django/Python shop (OK, with a frizzle of PHP here and there -- read as
> setting up MediaWiki, WordPress, and Joomla). Since 2006 I have used Django
> in all of our custom-built web apps. We also take on UI/UX design for all of
> our projects.
>
> Although I consider myself and my team indebted to Django forever,
> nevertheless, I have not contributed anything significant to the Django
> community. So, when I read about the Redesign project on this group, I
> thought this could be one opportunity my business should contribute. My
> commitment in this project will include producing final HTML mockups and of
> course any needed revision.
>
> Regards,
> Hooshyar
>
>
>
> On Saturday, April 28, 2012 1:05:27 AM UTC-7, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dana,
>>
>> I completely agree. I've been trying to get a redesign of
>> djangoproject.com going for quite some time under the auspices of the Django
>> Foundation. As you can see from the lack of changes, you can see that I
>> haven't been particularly successful :-(
>>
>> The fundamental problem is that we have plenty of coding talent at our
>> disposal, but not as much design talent. That's not to say that there aren't
>> many talented designers in our community -- there are -- it's just that
>> they're all very busy. We've approached several people in the Django design
>> community asking them to help out, and some have even made done some initial
>> work. However, redesign of a high-profile site like djangoproject.com is a
>> big job, and nobody has been able to spare the time to bring the job to
>> completion.
>>
>> So - at this point I'm open to any offers. I want to avoid design by
>> committee -- ideally, I would like to pass this off to a single person (or a
>> small group) and give them complete control over design process. I'm not
>> completely sure how to organise who gets this role -- suggestions are
>> welcome.
>>
>> If you (or anyone else) is interested, drop me a line and I can give you
>> the design brief we've been working with.
>>
>> Yours,
>> Russ Magee %-)
>>
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, 28 April 2012 at 3:22 PM, Dana Woodman wrote:
>>
>> > So now that Django is being moved to Git/Github (which is awesome!),
>> > maybe it would be a good time to think about a revamped home page for the
>> > project ala djangoproject.com (http://djangoproject.com)?
>> >
>> > Obviously this is no small undertaking and would be potentially
>> > contentions as to what 

Re: Redesign of djangoproject.com?

[Alec Taylor]

The http://proxart.co/ design on that page is quite a good one

On Tue, May 1, 2012 at 2:50 PM, Joe Tennies  wrote:
> A lot of these mockups are good, but I have a couple comments.
>
> I'd like to see more "interesting" grid layout. Django comes from the world
> of newpapers. I think that should be honored with an power 12/16 column
> layout. I'm seeing something like "Power Grid" from
> http://designshack.net/articles/layouts/10-rock-solid-website-layout-examples
> Other prior art to look at:
> http://demos.dojotoolkit.org/demos/fonts/demo.html
> I think http://dl.dropbox.com/u/10320/djangoproject/dp.com-home.png did a
> decent job of this. I love the sections on the top looking like sections of
> a newspaper.
>
>
> Another thing I like to see in every decent site is something to direct
> people into where they want to get by categorizing them. I'm seeing sections
> like "Considering Django" w/ the sales pitch, case studies, who uses it,
> etc. I'll have to think about how to categorize the rest, but I am usually
> annoyed by ending up on someone's site and not exactly knowing where to go.
>
> I've been messing with Adobe Proto lately. I'll see if I can put more
> showin' and less jibber-jabberin' ;)
>
> - Joe Tennies
>
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Re: Redesign of djangoproject.com?

[Alec Taylor]

Here is a design I just pulled up: http://i.imgur.com/wIkel.png

Thoughts?

On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 1:34 AM, Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Contact me for UX once you have forked the repo, I'll throw something
> up and place it on the wiki (or in an issue) of that new repo.
>
> Email: alectayl...@gmail.com
>
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Dana Woodman <d...@danawoodman.com> wrote:
>> Great info Russ, thanks!
>>
>> My thoughts at this point would be to focus on the main content sections,
>> including the home page and documentation overview pages.
>>
>> For the home page I'd see something like this working well:
>>
>> -Logo and brief project description (fork on Github as well?) - Answers the
>> "What is Django?" and "Why should I care?" questions. (for example, Twitter
>> Bootstraps's home page: http://cl.ly/3R0d1X300S0S0f0A0j0S)
>> Link to download and docs - Answers the "How can I start?" question
>> "Who uses Django?" section - Answers, well... the "Who uses Django?"
>> question. BTW, is there a reason that there isn't more of the larger users
>> of Django on here?  Eg Disqus, Instagram, Pinterest, Google, Mahalo,
>> addons.mozilla.org, etc... This alone would get people excited to use Django
>> and would convince a lot of the business types that Django can scale and is
>> worth the investment.
>> A graphical site navigation area, eg: http://cl.ly/3B1N2h3E2x3x0f3V091K -
>> Give people a an easy way to get around to the core content on the site.
>>
>>
>> Thinking a layout along the lines of Node.js (http://nodejs.org/) homepage
>> would be effective. Node does a good job of keeping things minimal and easy
>> to navigate.
>>
>> Some sort of "blogroll" type feature would satisfy the need to update the
>> community of interesting or useful links. This could work in concert with
>> the documentation as well. Not sure what the exact needs for this are, what
>> would be an ideal process for this?
>>
>> How would the style guide be presented? Would it be a page on
>> djangoproject.org, Github Wiki, a PDF, or...?
>>
>> I assume it would be fairly straightforward to give Spinx a new skin?
>>
>> Do you feel an incremental approach would be best or should it be a complete
>> overhaul in one go?
>>
>> --
>> Dana Woodman
>> d...@danawoodman.com
>> http://www.danawoodman.com
>>
>> On Saturday, April 28, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>>
>> Hi Dana
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, 29 April 2012 at 1:45 AM, Dana Woodman wrote:
>>
>> Very true Chris. I'd love to see the documents that were put together when
>> this was discussed last time, if they're still around.
>>
>> I've included the design brief in my response to Ned. If you're looking for
>> something else in particular, let me know and I'll see if I can find (or
>> produce) something that is suitable.
>>
>>
>> In regards to what needs improvement, there are some core issues as I see
>> it.
>>
>> 1) the home page does a poor job of conveying what someone should do if they
>> want to try out Django. It also could do a much better job of making Django
>> a bit more "sexy".
>> 2) the documentation itself, while thorough, is a bit difficult to navigate,
>> especially for new users. I think this could be partially remedied by some
>> modifications to headers and color choices.
>> 3) the project could do a better job of selling itself, especially in
>> regards to showcasing why it is so great: automatic admin, large active
>> community and plugins, large sites and organizations using it, active
>> development, lots of built in security, etc...
>> 4) it just looks old and outdated, which is a problem in its own right.
>>
>> Should I just fork the project on Github and hack away or do I need to work
>> on subversion?
>>
>> As of yesterday, we are a SVN-free organisation -- everything is on GitHub.
>> However, djangoproject.com has been on GitHub for a while:
>>
>> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com
>> If you want to work on code directly, that's the place to start.
>>
>>
>> In regards to organization of the documentation, I assume that is generated
>> via the docs within Django, correct? Would I have freedom to do content
>> organization/copy changes or would it just be a design change? I don't mean
>> changing the documentation, but more how other pages and sections are laid
>> out.
>>
>>
>> Correct -

Re: Redesign of djangoproject.com?

[Alec Taylor]

Contact me for UX once you have forked the repo, I'll throw something
up and place it on the wiki (or in an issue) of that new repo.

Email: alectayl...@gmail.com

On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 10:33 AM, Dana Woodman  wrote:
> Great info Russ, thanks!
>
> My thoughts at this point would be to focus on the main content sections,
> including the home page and documentation overview pages.
>
> For the home page I'd see something like this working well:
>
> -Logo and brief project description (fork on Github as well?) - Answers the
> "What is Django?" and "Why should I care?" questions. (for example, Twitter
> Bootstraps's home page: http://cl.ly/3R0d1X300S0S0f0A0j0S)
> Link to download and docs - Answers the "How can I start?" question
> "Who uses Django?" section - Answers, well... the "Who uses Django?"
> question. BTW, is there a reason that there isn't more of the larger users
> of Django on here?  Eg Disqus, Instagram, Pinterest, Google, Mahalo,
> addons.mozilla.org, etc... This alone would get people excited to use Django
> and would convince a lot of the business types that Django can scale and is
> worth the investment.
> A graphical site navigation area, eg: http://cl.ly/3B1N2h3E2x3x0f3V091K -
> Give people a an easy way to get around to the core content on the site.
>
>
> Thinking a layout along the lines of Node.js (http://nodejs.org/) homepage
> would be effective. Node does a good job of keeping things minimal and easy
> to navigate.
>
> Some sort of "blogroll" type feature would satisfy the need to update the
> community of interesting or useful links. This could work in concert with
> the documentation as well. Not sure what the exact needs for this are, what
> would be an ideal process for this?
>
> How would the style guide be presented? Would it be a page on
> djangoproject.org, Github Wiki, a PDF, or...?
>
> I assume it would be fairly straightforward to give Spinx a new skin?
>
> Do you feel an incremental approach would be best or should it be a complete
> overhaul in one go?
>
> --
> Dana Woodman
> d...@danawoodman.com
> http://www.danawoodman.com
>
> On Saturday, April 28, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
> Hi Dana
>
>
> On Sunday, 29 April 2012 at 1:45 AM, Dana Woodman wrote:
>
> Very true Chris. I'd love to see the documents that were put together when
> this was discussed last time, if they're still around.
>
> I've included the design brief in my response to Ned. If you're looking for
> something else in particular, let me know and I'll see if I can find (or
> produce) something that is suitable.
>
>
> In regards to what needs improvement, there are some core issues as I see
> it.
>
> 1) the home page does a poor job of conveying what someone should do if they
> want to try out Django. It also could do a much better job of making Django
> a bit more "sexy".
> 2) the documentation itself, while thorough, is a bit difficult to navigate,
> especially for new users. I think this could be partially remedied by some
> modifications to headers and color choices.
> 3) the project could do a better job of selling itself, especially in
> regards to showcasing why it is so great: automatic admin, large active
> community and plugins, large sites and organizations using it, active
> development, lots of built in security, etc...
> 4) it just looks old and outdated, which is a problem in its own right.
>
> Should I just fork the project on Github and hack away or do I need to work
> on subversion?
>
> As of yesterday, we are a SVN-free organisation -- everything is on GitHub.
> However, djangoproject.com has been on GitHub for a while:
>
> https://github.com/django/djangoproject.com
> If you want to work on code directly, that's the place to start.
>
>
> In regards to organization of the documentation, I assume that is generated
> via the docs within Django, correct? Would I have freedom to do content
> organization/copy changes or would it just be a design change? I don't mean
> changing the documentation, but more how other pages and sections are laid
> out.
>
>
> Correct - the documentation is the contents of the /docs directory, as
> rendered by Sphinx. This means that the style of any individual page (e.g.,
> fonts for headings, etc) is part of the Sphinx stylesheet, but the gross
> structure is determined by the file layout in the /docs directory (i.e., one
> page per file).
>
> There's really two tasks contained in what you have described here:
>
> 1) Restyling the docs to make them easier to read
>
> 2) Reorganizing the docs to make information easier to find.
>
> 1) is definitely the remit of this design project. (2) is a much bigger
> project. Unless you're going to keep it simple - e.g., a proposing better
> home page layout for the docs - it may be better to leave the structure of
> the docs as a separate issue.
>
> I assume I'd also need to work on the code.djangoproject.org
> (http://code.djangoproject.org) site as well? Are there other things that
> 

Re: Redesign of djangoproject.com?

[Alec Taylor]

I can throw in some UX designing if you want

On Sat, Apr 28, 2012 at 11:53 PM, Ned Batchelder  wrote:
> Will there be any specific discussion about what's wrong with the current
> site?  You two seem to agree something needs to be done, but haven't
> mentioned anything specific.
>
> --Ned.
>
>
> On 4/28/2012 4:13 AM, Dana Woodman wrote:
>
> Great to know they're is some interest in it and agreement that it is in
> need :)
>
> I'm very interested in the prospect of redesigning the site and would love
> to chat more about it. I feel like I owe the Django community something for
> all that it has given me (including the job I currently have!). I'd love to
> talk scope and other factors so I have a clear idea of what would be
> involved.
>
> Is this a good forum for this type of discussion or should we get in touch
> elsewhere to talk? You can get in touch with me
> here: http://danawoodman.com/
>
> --
> Dana Woodman
> d...@danawoodman.com
> http://www.danawoodman.com
>
> On Saturday, April 28, 2012 at 1:05 AM, Russell Keith-Magee wrote:
>
> Hi Dana,
>
> I completely agree. I've been trying to get a redesign of djangoproject.com
> going for quite some time under the auspices of the Django Foundation. As
> you can see from the lack of changes, you can see that I haven't been
> particularly successful :-(
>
> The fundamental problem is that we have plenty of coding talent at our
> disposal, but not as much design talent. That's not to say that there aren't
> many talented designers in our community -- there are -- it's just that
> they're all very busy. We've approached several people in the Django design
> community asking them to help out, and some have even made done some initial
> work. However, redesign of a high-profile site like djangoproject.com is a
> big job, and nobody has been able to spare the time to bring the job to
> completion.
>
> So - at this point I'm open to any offers. I want to avoid design by
> committee -- ideally, I would like to pass this off to a single person (or a
> small group) and give them complete control over design process. I'm not
> completely sure how to organise who gets this role -- suggestions are
> welcome.
>
> If you (or anyone else) is interested, drop me a line and I can give you the
> design brief we've been working with.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
>
>
> On Saturday, 28 April 2012 at 3:22 PM, Dana Woodman wrote:
>
> So now that Django is being moved to Git/Github (which is awesome!), maybe
> it would be a good time to think about a revamped home page for the project
> ala djangoproject.com (http://djangoproject.com)?
>
> Obviously this is no small undertaking and would be potentially contentions
> as to what would be the proper path, but I feel (and I don't think I'm
> alone) that djangoproject.com (http://djangoproject.com) could use a bit of
> a facelift.
>
> I have some idea of my own as to how this could be accomplished and I'm sure
> there are a ton of others out there with great ideas as well. Maybe we could
> open up some discussion on this idea?
>
> Forgive me if this has been proposed before as I'm new to the group!
>
> Cheers,
> Dana
>
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Re: ANNOUNCE: Django 1.4 released

[Alec Taylor]

Awesome!

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Re: Tutorial for dev version not working (Polls app): admin

[Alec Taylor]

kk

On Sun, Jan 29, 2012 at 4:15 AM, Florian Apolloner
 wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Please post questions to django-users; once we determined it's not an error
> by you django-developers is the correct mailinglist for discussing bugs.
>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>
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Tutorial for dev version not working (Polls app): admin

[Alec Taylor]

Going through the tutorial using the latest trunk in a virtualenv.

I am getting stuck in this section:
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/intro/tutorial02/#s-customize-the-admin-form

No matter how I rearrange the fields (even when I remove the
"question" field), I cannot notice any difference in the poll admin
screens. I have tried syncdb, and restarting the server.

I've looked at the index screen
(http://localhost:9400/admin/polls/poll/), the view screen
(http://localhost:9400/admin/polls/poll/1/) and the add screen
(http://localhost:9400/admin/polls/poll/add/). There are no
differences in field order/display on any of these pages.

I have followed the tutorial exactly, but it isn't rearranging the fields.

Is there a different way of rearranging admin fields in Django 1.4?

Thanks for helping me get this working,

Alec Taylor

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Re: Ad-hoc Django integration for fault-tolerance

[Alec Taylor]

Ah great, well at least now we know it won't happen again :D

On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 6:40 PM, Russell Keith-Magee
<russ...@keith-magee.com> wrote:
> For those wondering -- I've found out the cause. Google stopped
> sending notifications about messages to django-dev awaiting
> moderation, so there was a backlog of messages that needed to be
> moderated. Karen Tracey discovered the backlog this morning, and
> approved the messages; hence the flood.
>
> Yours,
> Russ Magee %-)
>
> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Adam "Cezar" Jenkins
> <emperorce...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> I also got the backlog, in addition my gmail has been buggy and slow for a
>> few days, so I'm assuming it's Google having an issue.
>>
>> On Fri, Jan 27, 2012 at 8:18 PM, Russell Keith-Magee
>> <russ...@keith-magee.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> On Sat, Jan 28, 2012 at 3:47 AM, Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>> > Thanks, hadn't thought to go with NoSQL. :)
>>> >
>>> > Quick side-note: I received 14 emails on the django-devel list between
>>> > 30 and 40 minutes ago. Strange, seeing as this one is dated 10 days
>>> > ago. Google Groups problem?
>>>
>>> You're not the only one who got this backlog -- I got it too. I'm have
>>> no ideas about the underlying cause.
>>>
>>> Yours,
>>> Russ Magee %-)
>>>
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Re: Ad-hoc Django integration for fault-tolerance

[Alec Taylor]

Thanks, hadn't thought to go with NoSQL. :)

Quick side-note: I received 14 emails on the django-devel list between
30 and 40 minutes ago. Strange, seeing as this one is dated 10 days
ago. Google Groups problem?

On Wed, Jan 18, 2012 at 10:07 AM, Kenneth Reitz  wrote:
> Enjoy: http://guide.couchdb.org/draft/why.html
>
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Ad-hoc Django integration for fault-tolerance

[Alec Taylor]

I thought of a fun project (if it hasn't been done before).

Why don't we build a distributed fault-tolerant architecture with Django?

Currently the architecture is MVC, which is logically client-server.

The architecture I would like to build up is inspired by PKIs' CA+RA idea.

Given the use-case of an e-commerce system with integrated POS, the
following should be in place:
- In-store database distributed across devices
- In-store database uploads orders made at set intervals to the main
server's database
- Main-server sends out orders made through the website to the store

This will enable the store to continue business when there Internet
connection goes down.

You may ask, "Why not just have a server in-store?" well this would be
an added hardware+maintenance cost+effort...

So these devices whether they be Towers, Laptops or PDAs will be
linked ad-hoc or through an AP to the local network. When the link
between our main server and the store goes down, they should be able
to keep running as usual minus the website orders.

What do you think, should this kind of architecture be built into django-core?

Or am I approaching this problem from the wrong direction?

Thanks for all suggestions,

Alec Taylor

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Implement automatic graceful degradation (to CSS) and progressive enhancement (to JavaScript) in Django

[Alec Taylor]

Good morning,

Over the past few months I've been fiddling around with the C++ Wt
Framework (http://www.webtoolkit.eu/wt).

It has a few interesting features, most notably abstracted page
creation techniques (not templates), widget-centric features and of
course C++ code can be used from other projects and pushed onto the
web =P

Wt serves a different purpose to Django, however there is one feature
of Wt's which I would like to see implemented in Django, and that is:
"automatic graceful degradation or progressive enhancement"

Basically your layout and format is specified in an abstracted format,
then based on the browser capabilities of the requester; CSS+HTML xor
JS+HTML is sent.

Is there already a technique for doing this in Python?

Do you think Django would benefit from this feature being implemented?

Thanks for your consideration,

Alec Taylor

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Re: Cleaning up manage.py and import paths

[Alec Taylor]

Hmm, well maybe we need to survey current structures, I'd expect some
constant (i.e. the settings.py file)

On Wed, Oct 12, 2011 at 11:53 PM, Carl Meyer <c...@oddbird.net> wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi Alec,
>
> On 10/12/2011 06:38 AM, Alec Taylor wrote:
>> Backwards compatibility is easily solved, include an upgrade.py file
>> which is called if project rootfolder has settings.py. upgrade.py
>> would fix the directory structure
>
> Thanks for the suggestion! I don't think it's quite that simple, as we
> can't assume that every upgrading project has maintained exactly the
> default startproject layout - I think quite a significant percentage
> don't. And we also don't know which style of import the project is using
> (with or without project prefix) for various things, and inconsistent
> imports would be tricky to fix automatically. We need to provide
> migration help for all projects that currently work, not just for the
> previous default layout.
>
> I think we're better off carefully documenting how the location of
> things in the new setup determines how they can be imported, and letting
> projects make the necessary changes themselves, rather than trying to
> provide an upgrade script that isn't likely to have a real high success
> rate.
>
> Carl
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
> Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/
>
> iEYEARECAAYFAk6VjcUACgkQ8W4rlRKtE2fRqACeOAL+Etvd2n2IqyV/aUVPQ4EY
> 09wAoJqbQ6NcCH0QD46zE8q/pRCUE1Ad
> =D0va
> -END PGP SIGNATURE-
>
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Re: Cleaning up manage.py and import paths

[Alec Taylor]

On Tue, Oct 11, 2011 at 9:05 AM, Carl Meyer  wrote:
> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> Hash: SHA1
>
> Hi all,
>
> In the spirit of making Django behave better as a Python library (c.f.
> Glyph's keynote at djangocon.us), I'd like to finally tackle removing
> the sys.path hacks in django.core.management.setup_environ. I'll give
> the full detailed rundown here on the current behavior and how I propose
> to change it. Fortunately, the fix isn't that complicated, and I think
> it's a no-brainer. For the impatient, you can skip straight to my
> proposed patch [2].
>
> The tl;dr summary is that I think with some small changes to manage.py
> and the default project layout, we can fix some very common bugs and
> deployment problems, dramatically reduce the extent to which manage.py
> is "unknown magic" for newcomers to Django, and take a significant step
> towards being "just a Python library."
>
> This issue is tracked in ticket #15372 [1], though there's a lot more
> detailed info in this message than on that ticket.
>
> The problem
> ===
>
> Right now "django-admin.py startproject mysite" generates this:
>
>    mysite/
>        __init__.py
>        manage.py
>        settings.py
>        urls.py
>
> This layout is the root of the problem, because it commingles manage.py
> (a command-line script entry point that should not be imported) with
> importable modules inside a package.
>
> When Python runs a command-line script it puts the script's directory
> onto sys.path (even if you run "python /full/path/to/mysite/manage.py"
> from somewhere else entirely). So with this layout, via manage.py,
> "import settings" and "import urls" will both work, and if we add any
> other modules or packages to this directory, they are also importable as
> top-level modules/packages. This is a standard feature of Python.
>
> But "mysite" is a package, and Django wants us to be able to import
> "mysite.settings" and "mysite.urls" (in fact, the latter is the default
> ROOT_URLCONF setting). In order to make that possible, setup_environ
> does some magic: it finds the parent directory of "mysite", temporarily
> adds it to sys.path, imports mysite, and then reverts sys.path. Now we
> can either "import settings" or "import mysite.settings", and both will
> work. Same is true for any other modules or packages (e.g. apps) we add
> under mysite/. How nice!
>
> Not really. This bit of clever causes a boat-load of problems:
>
> 1. Python's importer doesn't know that the same module imported under
> two different names is the same module, so it imports it twice. Which
> means module-level code can run twice, which causes really confusing bugs.
>
> 2. People write code that imports things inconsistently (sometimes with
> the project prefix, sometimes without it), and then when they go to
> deploy (without manage.py or setup_environ), their imports break and
> they don't understand why. This comes up frequently in #django. In order
> to fix it they either have to make all their imports consistent, or add
> both the inner and outer directories to sys.path/PYTHONPATH in their
> deployment setup. Inconsistent imports should fail fast, not when you
> move to production.
>
> 2a. Even worse, our tutorial now encourages people to make their imports
> inconsistent! ROOT_URLCONF is "mysite.urls" but we tell people to use
> just "polls" rather than "mysite.polls" - so any tutorial-based project
> now requires the double import paths in order to even run.
>
> 3. Since it's not obvious what Django is doing, people don't always
> realize that the name of the outer directory matters, they think it's
> just a container (which is what it ought to be). If they commit the
> startproject layout at the top of a VCS repo, then check it out under a
> different name, imports break. (If they check it out under a name that
> isn't a valid Python module name, setup_environ breaks entirely).
>
> 4. The temporary addition to sys.path can cause unrelated packages
> adjacent to the project to be imported, if the import of the project
> module triggers an import of a name that happens to exist adjacent. This
> is extremely difficult to track down; since Django restores sys.path, it
> appears the adjacent package is somehow imported without even being on
> sys.path. This can catch very experienced Python devs; I once spent an
> hour on IRC working with Ned Batchelder to track this down in his project.
>
> 5. Understanding Python import paths is hard enough for beginners. The
> Django tutorial could help them on the road to understanding, with no
> loss in usability; pulling a trick like this behind the scenes helps
> them stay confused instead.
>
> The solution
> 
>
> The key is to fix the "startproject" layout:
>
>    mysite/
>        manage.py
>        mysite/
>            __init__.py
>            settings.py
>            urls.py
>
> The outer "mysite/" is now just a container, not a Python package. It
> can be renamed without 

Re: Removing pickle from cookie-based session storage

[Alec Taylor]

Remove the pickle from the cookie jar!

Only cookies are meant to be there :P

On Sun, Oct 2, 2011 at 3:26 PM, Paul McMillan  wrote:
> We recently committed changes to 1.4 that added signed cookie based
> session storage. Session data is pickled, signed, and sent to the
> client as a cookie. On receipt of the cookie, we check the signature,
> unpickle, and use the data. We could use JSON instead of pickle, at
> the expense of longer cookies.
>
> I believe that our signing implementation is secure and correct.
>
> However, I know that users of Django screw up from time to time. It's
> not uncommon to see SECRET_KEY in a git repository, and that value is
> often used in production. If SECRET_KEY is compromised, an attacker
> can sign arbitrary cookie data. The use of pickle changes an attack
> from "screw up the data in this application" to "arbitrary remote code
> execution".
>
> In light of this, we should be conservative and use JSON by
> default instead of pickle.
>
> -Paul
>
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Re: We're a group of students at UC Berkeley looking to contribute to Django

[Alec Taylor]

Great to hear you're getting involved!

Some things I'd like implemented in DJango involve reducing
build-setup environment and expanding project uses to the CMS markets
by incorporated DJango project distribution+setup.

For starters, I was thinking 3 installers (exe,rpm,deb) and a shell
script (sh), but eventually building a small website around DJango for
setups.

Steps
- Download python
- Install python (set location)
- Download django
- Install django (set location + perhaps select db info?)
- Download project (perhaps pick from list?)
- Install project
- Option to run project + run readme

I'm currently too distracted by the actual project I want to
distribute to do this on my own.

If a few of you are interested though, I can give you tips+guidance to
get started. :]

All the best,

Alec Taylor

On Tue, Sep 27, 2011 at 1:10 PM, jaminw <wong.ja...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi all,
> We're a a group of students at UC Berkeley taking an open source class and
> we've decided to contribute to Django.
> We looked at the bug tracker but it seems a little disorganized and some of
> the easier bug reports are kinda trivial.
> Is there any suggestions on how do we start?
> Thanks!
>
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Re: DJango doesn't work with Oracle 11g on Windows 8

[Alec Taylor]

Hi Anthony,

I'm running 64-bit Python 2.7, with 64-bit cx_Oracle.

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 2:16 PM, Anthony Tuininga
<anthony.tuini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> You're welcome. This can be due to a number of things -- one of them
> might be the difference between 64-bit and 32-bit -- not sure which
> one you are using, of course. Everything has to match -- Python,
> Oracle and cx_Oracle. You might be able to find something out using
> "Process Explorer" which will tell you what problems you have with
> loading a particular executable (or DLL in this case -- which is what
> a PYD file is in any case). Hope some of that helps!
>
> Anthony
>
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 9:58 PM, Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Thanks Anthony, unfortunately although I made progress, I am still
>> unable to proceed due to an error.
>>
>> manage.py syncdb error: http://pastebin.com/syqxF4m6
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Anthony Tuininga
>> <anthony.tuini...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> You should just download and install cx_Oracle directly instead of
>>> trying to build it. In theory it should work on Windows 8 without
>>> needing a rebuild. :-)
>>>
>>> http://cx-oracle.sourceforge.net/
>>>
>>> If you do actually need to rebuild because of Windows 8 you can use
>>> the platform development kit available from Microsoft which includes
>>> the compilers and set the environment variable
>>>
>>> DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
>>>
>>> Without that you need a copy of Visual Studio installed on your machine.
>>>
>>> Hope that helps.
>>>
>>> Anthony
>>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Good morning,
>>>>
>>>> Unfortunately DJango doesn't work with Oracle 11g Express on Windows 8 x64.
>>>>
>>>> DJango error: http://pastebin.com/8tAzsjYh (summary: "No module named
>>>> cx_Oracle")
>>>>
>>>> pip install cx_Oracle output: http://pastebin.com/6Y61PqSM
>>>>
>>>> easy_install cx_Oracle output: http://pastebin.com/rCsY63RS
>>>>
>>>> Summary: "Unable to find vcvarsall.bat"
>>>>
>>>> How can I make DJango work with my Oracle 11g Express database?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for all suggestions,
>>>>
>>>> Alec Taylor
>>>>
>>>> --
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>>>>
>>>>
>>>
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>>>
>>
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Re: DJango doesn't work with Oracle 11g on Windows 8

[Alec Taylor]

Thanks Anthony, unfortunately although I made progress, I am still
unable to proceed due to an error.

manage.py syncdb error: http://pastebin.com/syqxF4m6

On Thu, Sep 22, 2011 at 3:47 AM, Anthony Tuininga
<anthony.tuini...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> You should just download and install cx_Oracle directly instead of
> trying to build it. In theory it should work on Windows 8 without
> needing a rebuild. :-)
>
> http://cx-oracle.sourceforge.net/
>
> If you do actually need to rebuild because of Windows 8 you can use
> the platform development kit available from Microsoft which includes
> the compilers and set the environment variable
>
> DISTUTILS_USE_SDK=1
>
> Without that you need a copy of Visual Studio installed on your machine.
>
> Hope that helps.
>
> Anthony
>
> On Wed, Sep 21, 2011 at 9:25 AM, Alec Taylor <alec.tayl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Good morning,
>>
>> Unfortunately DJango doesn't work with Oracle 11g Express on Windows 8 x64.
>>
>> DJango error: http://pastebin.com/8tAzsjYh (summary: "No module named
>> cx_Oracle")
>>
>> pip install cx_Oracle output: http://pastebin.com/6Y61PqSM
>>
>> easy_install cx_Oracle output: http://pastebin.com/rCsY63RS
>>
>> Summary: "Unable to find vcvarsall.bat"
>>
>> How can I make DJango work with my Oracle 11g Express database?
>>
>> Thanks for all suggestions,
>>
>> Alec Taylor
>>
>> --
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>>
>>
>
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DJango doesn't work with Oracle 11g on Windows 8

[Alec Taylor]

Good morning,

Unfortunately DJango doesn't work with Oracle 11g Express on Windows 8 x64.

DJango error: http://pastebin.com/8tAzsjYh (summary: "No module named
cx_Oracle")

pip install cx_Oracle output: http://pastebin.com/6Y61PqSM

easy_install cx_Oracle output: http://pastebin.com/rCsY63RS

Summary: "Unable to find vcvarsall.bat"

How can I make DJango work with my Oracle 11g Express database?

Thanks for all suggestions,

Alec Taylor

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Re: PHP-inspired user-friendly in-browser DJango install

[Alec Taylor]

Agreed

On Wed, Sep 14, 2011 at 1:00 AM, h3  wrote:
>> Beyond that, what I am wondering is how much users will be able  understand 
>> how Django work if they can't do the installation.
>
> Each year I accept foreign students for internship in my company and
> most of then either never heard of Django or didn't bother to learn
> how it works just to try it.
>
> Most of them were competent developers, but they didn't see the point
> of learning a how to get started with Django because it seemed too
> complicated to setup and use for starters. So they preferred to stay
> in their comfort zone: PHP.
>
> But when I gave them no other choices than to learn and use Django,
> most of them picked it up in less than a week and they "saw the
> light".
>
> Just last week my last intern wrote me on facebook to say he continued
> to use django back in his country and he think it's really awsome.
>
> The point is not to lower the bar for the "less gifted" as you imply,
> it's to lower the bar so more developers can give it a try without
> having to learn about every possible approaches and test them to see
> which one fits their needs.
>
> If they can get started and play with django with little efforts and
> they like it, *then* they will have a good incentive to spend time
> learning more about the many ways you can use and deploy it.
>
> I think that's what "lowering the bar" is mostly about. It's not about
> making it dumb-friendly by any means.
>
> regards
>
> On Sep 13, 2:07 am, Xavier Ordoquy  wrote:
>> Le 13 sept. 2011 à 05:44, Justine Tunney a écrit :
>>
>> > I agree with you that reducing the barriers to using Django is very 
>> > important.  But what we need is not necessarily a web based installer, but 
>> > something to get people off the ground so they can start playing around 
>> > with Django very quickly.  Back in the day (like circa 2004) the thing 
>> > that really helped me learn PHP was this program called EasyPHP which was 
>> > a simple Windows based installer that got me up and running and writing 
>> > code on my local machine in five minutes.
>>
>> PHP and Django installation are very different.
>>
>> For PHP you need a couple of things:
>>  - apache or equivalent
>>  - php module
>>  - configuration tuning
>>  - find the apache root to put your files under
>>  - a database
>>  - database modules for php
>> and I might have missed a couple of things
>>
>> For Django, you'll need:
>>  - Python
>>  - Django
>>
>> At this point you can go ahead with the dev server and sqlite. No need to 
>> tune/configure things further. I hardly see how one can lower this further.
>>
>> Beyond that, what I am wondering is how much users will be able to 
>> understand how Django work if they can't do the installation.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Xavier.
>
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Re: PHP-inspired user-friendly in-browser DJango install

[Alec Taylor]

Romain: My main argument is not for n00b developers, but just for any
nut with a server...

I want to be able to package my DJango project up into something as
easily installable as a Drupal distribution.

On Tue, Sep 13, 2011 at 4:47 AM, Romain Dorgueil <har...@gmail.com> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> it may be my first message on the list ever, but I wanted to put my 2 cents
> here.
>
> From the PHP world, Symfony2 introduced a "web installer" system in its
> "standard" distribution (which is the core + some fancyness).
>
> To me, it's useless unless you want to attract people from a larger audience
> than what the framework is aimed at at first. I personally don't want some
> useless (or use-once at best) code to be around my project, and I don't
> think it's the role of a developper-oriented piece of software to provide
> such things. Of course, a more "newbie-friendly" may be "nice-to-have", but
> imho the "core" of a framework should not provide such thing.
>
> Romain.
>
> On 12/09/2011 18:39, Tom Evans wrote:
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 4:56 PM, Alec Taylor<alec.tayl...@gmail.com>
>>  wrote:
>>>
>>> Looks useable.
>>>
>>> Anyone interested in working with me to port this to DJango?
>>
>> Alec, as other people have mentioned, Django is not Drupal. Drupal is
>> a web application that can be customized using plugins, where as
>> Django is a python library one can use to create web applications.
>> With that in mind, 'porting this to django' is nonsensical - PyLucid
>> uses Django already, and Django is only the framework, not the
>> project.
>>
>> The point here is that two different web apps created using Django
>> could have vastly different requirements and installation steps, where
>> as Drupal has a single set of steps to go from nothing to installed.
>>
>> In fact, its quite common to have the same project installed and
>> running in completely different manners. For instance on our
>> production servers, all libraries/code/templates, even in house ones,
>> are installed from our internal package repository (an in house pypi
>> clone), where as in development, each package is checked out from
>> subversion in an editable form.
>>
>> PyLucid is a good example of a project based on django providing
>> simple and clean installation instructions - although I wouldn't
>> deploy it quite like that myself, any solution which uses .htaccess is
>> Bad and Wrong imo*.
>>
>>> (the reason I'm not doing it myself is that I am very new to Python and
>>> DJango)
>>>
>> And (not to be too harsh) this is why you are suggesting it. Django is
>> like a tool, admittedly it's one of those Leatherman style multi tools
>> that you can use to do almost anything, but it's still a tool for you
>> to use rather than a base.
>>
>> Cheers
>>
>> Tom
>>
>> * de gustibus non est disputandum
>>
>
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Re: PHP-inspired user-friendly in-browser DJango install

[Alec Taylor]

Looks useable.

Anyone interested in working with me to port this to DJango?

(the reason I'm not doing it myself is that I am very new to Python and DJango)

On Fri, Sep 9, 2011 at 5:38 PM, Jens Diemer  wrote:
> Am 09.09.2011 08:23, schrieb Aymeric Augustin:
>>
>> Nothing prevents you from altering the settings file dynamically and
>> telling the user to restart the webserver. You can run wih an in-memory
>> SQLite database until this is done.
>>
>> So your question isn't related to the development of Django itself; it
>> would be more appropriate on django-users.
>>
>> Note that deploying a Django project is a bit more complicated than a PHP
>> project (just throw the files in WWW_ROOT). IMO setting up the database
>> isn't the most difficult step. I don't know any projects that provide this
>> feature.
>
>
> For PyLucid CMS i created a "standalone package" with a Web-GUI
> installation. You need not shell to install it.
>
> Here some screenshots:
>
> http://www.pylucid.org/permalink/340/pylucid-screenshots/PyLucid-standalone/
>
> The Web-GUI install is a simple CGI script for running syncdb, south migrate
> and create a first superuser etc.
>
> The script is here:
> 
>
>
> The install procedure is really simple:
>        * Upload all files via FTP to webserver
>        * request http://www.my_server.tld/install_pylucid.cgi
>        * run "syncdb", "migrate", "create superuser", "loaddata"
>
> Complete instruction here:
> http://www.pylucid.org/permalink/331/1b-install-pylucid-standalone-package
>
>
>
> But the prefered way to install PyLucid is a bootscript which creates a
> virtualenv:
> 
>
>
> --
>
> Mfg.
>
> Jens Diemer
>
>
> 
> http://www.jensdiemer.de
>
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PHP-inspired user-friendly in-browser DJango install

[Alec Taylor]

Good morning,

I have been using Drupal for a while now, but am slowly moving toward
DJango.

I am currently working on quite an ambitious project, which I will be
releasing under a permissive license (New BSD or better).

I would like my project to be as accessible as possible. To this end,
I would like people without any Python or DJango knowledge to be able
to quickly setup my project.

Here is the web-interface functionality I would like to present to the
user:









[Install]

Can DJango be made do work this way? — If so, do you have some example
code or an existing project which does this?

Thanks for all suggestions,

Alec Taylor

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