Re: Backporting some Python 3 support features to 1.4.x?

2012-09-06 Thread Luke Plant 
On 06/09/12 19:09, Aymeric Augustin wrote:

> Now we have two alternatives:
> 1) tell them to roll their own compat or wait until they can target 1.5
> + 1.6 — quite a downer,
> 2) add some forwards compatibility tools to 1.4.
> 
> We generally don't add features to minor releases, but there's a
> precedent (csrf_noop), and the patch is as harmless as they come (see
> attachment).
> 
> What do you think?

This was something I was going to bring up myself, since it is a major
obstacle to re-usable django apps actually providing Python 3
compatibility. I'm +1 on adding forwards compatibility to 1.4.X,
assuming a safe patch.

Luke

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Re: Backporting some Python 3 support features to 1.4.x?

2012-09-06 Thread Andrew Godwin 
I'm definitely +1 on this - I have a few codebases I want to start
converting but also want to keep running on 1.4, and the patch looks
sensible to me. There is precedent for this, and even if there wasn't, this
is a nice way to get the migration cycle started.

Andrew

On Thu, Sep 6, 2012 at 3:05 PM, Donald Stufft wrote:

>  Just as an additional aside, the apps can also depend on the actual six
> library itself instead of Django's embedded version (It could be an
> optional dependency on Django < 1.5). The major things I think would be
> anything Django specific that don't come from six.
>
> On Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Several people have started porting their apps for Python 3, but they're
> running into trouble when they try to support both Django 1.4 and
> master. They end up with regrettable patterns such as:
>
> try:
> from django.utils.six import PY3
> except ImportError:
> PY3 = False
>
> Authors of pluggable apps generally chose to support the current and the
> previous version of Django. Thus their users can alternatively upgrade
> Django and their apps, which makes upgrades less scary.
>
> Now we have two alternatives:
> 1) tell them to roll their own compat or wait until they can target 1.5 +
> 1.6 — quite a downer,
> 2) add some forwards compatibility tools to 1.4.
>
> We generally don't add features to minor releases, but there's a precedent
> (csrf_noop), and the patch is as harmless as they come (see attachment).
>
> What do you think?
>
> --
> Aymeric.
>
> --
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>
> Attachments:
>  - python3-forwards-compat-for-django-14.diff
>
>
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Re: Backporting some Python 3 support features to 1.4.x?

2012-09-06 Thread Donald Stufft 
Just as an additional aside, the apps can also depend on the actual six library 
itself instead of Django's embedded version (It could be an optional dependency 
on Django < 1.5). The major things I think would be anything Django specific 
that don't come from six.


On Thursday, September 6, 2012 at 2:09 PM, Aymeric Augustin wrote:

> Hello,
>  
> Several people have started porting their apps for Python 3, but they're 
> running into trouble when they try to support both Django 1.4 and master. 
> They end up with regrettable patterns such as:  
>  
> try:
> from django.utils.six import PY3
> except ImportError:
> PY3 = False
>  
> Authors of pluggable apps generally chose to support the current and the 
> previous version of Django. Thus their users can alternatively upgrade Django 
> and their apps, which makes upgrades less scary.  
>  
> Now we have two alternatives:
> 1) tell them to roll their own compat or wait until they can target 1.5 + 1.6 
> — quite a downer,
> 2) add some forwards compatibility tools to 1.4.
>  
> We generally don't add features to minor releases, but there's a precedent 
> (csrf_noop), and the patch is as harmless as they come (see attachment).
>  
> What do you think?  
>  
> --  
> Aymeric.
> --  
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
> "Django developers" group.
> To post to this group, send email to django-developers@googlegroups.com 
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> For more options, visit this group at 
> http://groups.google.com/group/django-developers?hl=en.
>  
> Attachments:  
> - python3-forwards-compat-for-django-14.diff
>  


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Re: Backporting some Python 3 support features to 1.4.x?

2012-09-06 Thread Mark Lavin 
Hi,

I am one such author and I wanted to share my experience. I have ported my 
code and test suites for 3 applications to run on Django 1.3-1.5dev and 
Python 2.6, 2.7 and 3.2 (1.5dev only).
Those are https://github.com/mlavin/django-responsive, 
https://github.com/mlavin/django-ad-code and 
https://github.com/mlavin/django-scribbler. There are fairly new apps and 
don't
have many users/active deployments and so made good candidates for this 
work.

For the most part these were fairly easy to port. Adding unicode_literals 
everywhere was most of the work. There were a few places where I needed to 
make use of django.utils.six.
The largest pain point was trying to follow the recommendation for models 
__str__/__unicode__ in 
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/python3/#str-and-unicode-methods
If you are trying to support Django 1.4 then you can't really use this 
recommendation without backporting the decorator because of the way it was 
written to be no-op for
Python 3 rather than Python 2. I understand why this decision was made and 
in the long run it is the right decision. For now I think app maintainers 
will have a bit of pain without
some of these features being backported to a 1.4.X release. You do have the 
option of using the hack you referenced (which I am doing) or a similar 
conditional import 
along with conditional __str__/__unicode__ which this decorator was meant 
to avoid. It's certainly not hard to do but it feels dirty.

My work now has been focused on getting the tests to pass and now they do. 
Another piece will be to actually deploy a project using one of these app.
I'll be continuing to do this work while at DjangoCon and I'll happily 
chime in any other stumbling blocks I run into while I port some other 
larger applications.

Best,

Mark

On Thursday, September 6, 2012 2:10:18 PM UTC-4, Aymeric Augustin wrote:
>
> Hello,
>
> Several people have started porting their apps for Python 3, but they're 
> running into trouble when they try to support both Django 1.4 and 
> master. They end up with regrettable patterns such as:
>
> try:
> from django.utils.six import PY3
> except ImportError:
> PY3 = False
>
> Authors of pluggable apps generally chose to support the current and the 
> previous version of Django. Thus their users can alternatively upgrade 
> Django and their apps, which makes upgrades less scary.
>
> Now we have two alternatives:
> 1) tell them to roll their own compat or wait until they can target 1.5 + 
> 1.6 — quite a downer,
> 2) add some forwards compatibility tools to 1.4.
>  
> We generally don't add features to minor releases, but there's a precedent 
> (csrf_noop), and the patch is as harmless as they come (see attachment).
>
> What do you think?
>  
> -- 
> Aymeric.
>  

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Backporting some Python 3 support features to 1.4.x?

2012-09-06 Thread Aymeric Augustin 
Hello,

Several people have started porting their apps for Python 3, but they're
running into trouble when they try to support both Django 1.4 and
master. They end up with regrettable patterns such as:

try:
from django.utils.six import PY3
except ImportError:
PY3 = False

Authors of pluggable apps generally chose to support the current and the
previous version of Django. Thus their users can alternatively upgrade
Django and their apps, which makes upgrades less scary.

Now we have two alternatives:
1) tell them to roll their own compat or wait until they can target 1.5 +
1.6 — quite a downer,
2) add some forwards compatibility tools to 1.4.

We generally don't add features to minor releases, but there's a precedent
(csrf_noop), and the patch is as harmless as they come (see attachment).

What do you think?

-- 
Aymeric.

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python3-forwards-compat-for-django-14.diff
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