Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  Mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Carlton Gibson):

 #32797 was a duplicate.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  Mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Maciej Olko):

 For what it's worth analogous list of missing inflections for Polish
 language (analogous to list for Lithuanian by sirex –
 https://code.djangoproject.com/ticket/11688#comment:15):

 {{{
 [ genitive ] "Cannot delete %(name)s"
 [ accusative, @gender ]  "Delete selected %(verbose_name_plural)s"
 []   '%(verbose_name)s: %(obj)s'
 [ accusative ]   'Added %(name)s "%(object)s".
 [ dative ]   'Changed %(list)s for %(name)s "%(object)s".'
 [ accusative ]   'Deleted %(name)s "%(object)s".'
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was added successfully.'
 [ accusative, @gender ]  "You may add another %(verbose_name)s below."
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was changed
 successfully.'
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was added successfully.
 You may edit it again below.'
 [ accusative, @gender ]  "You may add another %(verbose_name)s below."
 [ accusative ]   'Add %(verbose_name)s'
 []   '%(name)s object with primary key %(key)r does
 not exist.'
 [ accusative ]   'Change %s'
 [ number (nominative/accusative/genitive), @gender ] "%(count)s %(name)s
 was changed successfully."
 [ accusative ]   {% blocktranslate with cl.opts.verbose_name as
 name %}Add {{ name }}{% endblocktranslate %}
 [ accusative ]   {% translate 'Add' %} {{ opts.verbose_name }}
 [ accusative, @gender ]  {% blocktranslate with
 verbose_name=inline_admin_formset.opts.verbose_name|title %}Add another {{
 verbose_name }}{% endblocktranslate %}
 [ accusative ]   'Select %(verbose_name)s'
 [ accusative ]   'Select %(verbose_name)s to change'
 [ number (nominative/accusative/genitive) ] '%d %(verbose_name)s' %
 (self.result_count, name)
 [ genitive ] {% blocktranslate with filter_title=title %} By
 {{ filter_title }} {% endblocktranslate %}
 [ genitive, @gender ]"No %(verbose_name)s found matching the query"
 [ genitive, @gender ]"No %(verbose_name_plural)s available"
 [ @gender ]  "Future %(verbose_name_plural)s not available
 because %(class_name)s.allow_future is False."
 [ number (nominative/accusative/genitive) ] {{ cl.result_count }} {% if
 cl.result_count == 1 %}{{ cl.opts.verbose_name }}{% else %}{{
 cl.opts.verbose_name_plural }}{% endif %}
 }}}

 It confirms Luke's hypothesis, that different grammatical cases can be
 used in the same phrase for different languages. It may also be an
 arbitrary decision of translator to choose a translation and change the
 case of a noun (the choice is sometimes the matter of taste, not fully
 deterministic).

 I'd propose a bit different approach to the issue, using context
 translations and capability of format strings to reach for attributes (the
 MVP for my proposed approach can be seen here:
 https://github.com/m-aciek/attributivegettext). I'd try to find time to
 write a DEP with the proposal in the following months.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  Mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by Luke Plant):

 For anyone still interested in this, Mozilla has created a localisation
 framework that is aimed at solving all these kinds of gender/case/etc.
 problems, as well as plurals. If/when this issue is fixed -
 https://github.com/projectfluent/fluent/issues/80 - it should have enough
 for our needs in terms of a spec.

 You need to look at:

  - http://l20n.org/
  - http://projectfluent.org/

 At the time of writing, it seems that Mozilla is using it a lot for
 internal projects and migrating there other systems to it, and have begun
 the process of making it more usable by others. It includes at least one
 HTML/DOM/JS based way of rendering different translations. To generate
 translations server side in Python, we would need something different, and
 the Python bindings are at an early stage of development it seems.
 Mozilla provide some tooling around it e.g. https://pontoon.mozilla.org/
 but I haven't been able to find any other service that shows a knowledge
 of the new file format (.ftl files).

 It is clearly not yet mature enough for our usage. Whether it will be
 suitable for us in the future is also a big question - it would mean
 moving away from GNU gettext entirely, which could be a huge effort.
 However, rewriting .po files into FTL should be entirely scriptable.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by m-aciek):

 * cc: maciej.olko@… (added)


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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by claudep):

 I'm still very convinced that any solution trying to build sentences with
 translated blocks and some rules is doomed to fail.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by gunchleoc):

 I think we should stick to plural forms for now. We could then analyze
 which contexts we have and have a look whether it is worth the
 effort/possible giving them to the translators as whole strings to
 translate.

 I can just add another problem to the mix:

 Provided that the case/gender has been catered for, "Delete the seleted X"
 for a singular X in my language can still be:

 Sguab às '''an''' X a thagh thu
 Sguab às '''a' '''X a thagh thu
 Sguab às '''am''' X a thagh thu
 Sguab às '''an t-'''X a thagh thu

 Which form to pick depends on both the gender of the noun and on which
 sound the noun starts with... a bit like "'''an''' apple" and "'''a'''
 pear" in English.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  new
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by shaib):

 * cc: shaib (added)


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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by lukeplant):

 As mentioned previously, the analysis of which case to use is not
 guaranteed to be the same for all languages, especially as different
 languages have different cases. So, we can't have a solution that requires
 putting case into the Django source code.

 I've written a blog post with some of my ideas on this, but at the moment
 it is much too big a project, and would require a complete change to how
 we do translations (moving away from gettext entirely, and therefore
 massively backwards incompatible). http://lukeplant.me.uk/blog/posts
 /translating-sentences-with-substitutions/

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by anonymous):

 * cc: 4glitch@… (added)


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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by sirex):

 I tried to find all places, where verbose_name is involved, and here is
 list of what I found with noun forms and context for whole string:

 {{{
 [ genitive ] "Cannot delete %(name)s"
 [ accusative, @gender ]  "Delete selected %(verbose_name_plural)s"
 []   '%(verbose_name)s: %(obj)s'
 [ @gender ]  'Added %(name)s "%(object)s".
 [ dative,  @gender ] 'Changed %(list)s for %(name)s "%(object)s".'
 [ @gender ]  'Deleted %(name)s "%(object)s".'
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was added successfully.'
 [ accusative ]   "You may add another %(verbose_name)s below."
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was changed
 successfully.'
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was added successfully.
 You may edit it again below.'
 [ accusative ]   "You may add another %(verbose_name)s below."
 [ accusative ]   'Add %(verbose_name)s'
 [ @gender ]  '%(name)s object with primary key %(key)r does
 not exist.'
 [ accusative ]   'Change %s'
 [ genitive, number ] "%(count)s %(name)s was changed successfully."
 [ @gender ]  '%(name)s object with primary key %(key)r does
 not exist.'
 [ @gender ]  'The %(name)s "%(obj)s" was deleted
 successfully.'
 [ genitive ] "Cannot delete %(name)s"
 [ accusative ]   {% blocktrans with cl.opts.verbose_name as name
 %}Add {{ name }}{% endblocktrans %}
 [ accusative ]   {% trans 'Add' %} {{ opts.verbose_name }}
 [ accusative ]   {% blocktrans with
 verbose_name=inline_admin_formset.opts.verbose_name|title %}Add another {{
 verbose_name }}{% endblocktrans %}
 [ accusative ]   'Select %(verbose_name)s'
 [ accusative,  @gender ] 'Select %(verbose_name)s to change'
 [ genitive, number ] '%d %(verbose_name)s' % (self.result_count, name)
 [ genitive ] {{ field.verbose_name|capfirst }} calendar
 [ accusative ]   {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} by {{
 field.verbose_name }}
 [ accusative ]   Home / {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} /
 By {{ field.field.verbose_name }}
 [ accusative ]   {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} by {{
 field.field.verbose_name }}
 [ instrumental ] {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} with {{
 field.field.verbose_name }} {{ value }}
 [ accusative ]   Home / {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} /
 Fields / By {{ field.field.verbose_name }} / {{ value }}
 [ genitive, number ] {{ object_list.count }} {% if
 object_list.count|pluralize %}{{ model.verbose_name_plural }}{% else %}{{
 model.verbose_name }}{% endif %} with {{ field.field.verbose_name }} {{
 value }}
 [ plural ]   Home / {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }}
 [ genitive, number ] {{ model.objects.count }} {% if
 model.objects.count|pluralize %}{{ model.verbose_name_plural }}{% else
 %}{{ model.verbose_name }}{% endif %}
 []   {{ object.model.verbose_name|capfirst }}: {{
 object }}
 [ plural ]   Home / {{
 object.model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} / {{ object }}
 []   {{ object.model.verbose_name|capfirst }}: {{
 object }}
 [ plural, @gender ]  Appears in "{{ related_object.related_field }}"
 in the following {{ related_object.model.verbose_name_plural }}:
 [ plural, instrumental ] {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} with {{
 field.verbose_name }} in {{ month|date:"F Y" }}
 [ accusative, plural ]   Home / {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} /
 Calendars / By {{ field.verbose_name }} / {{ month|date:"Y" }} / {{
 month|date:"F" }}
 [ genitive, number ] {{ object_list.count }} {% if
 object_list.count|pluralize %}{{ model.verbose_name_plural }}{% else %}{{
 model.verbose_name }}{% endif %} with {{ field.verbose_name }} on {{
 month|date:"F Y" }}
 [ plural, accusative ]   {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} by {{
 field.field.verbose_name }}
 [ plural, accusative ]   Home / {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} /
 Fields / By {{ field.field.verbose_name }}
 [ plural, accusative ]   {{ model.verbose_name_plural|capfirst }} 

Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by sirex):

 This ticket also covers case-matching, and current patch adds one layer of
 complexity, but actually fixes only number related issues. And what I'm
 proposing, is to fix this as whole using one flexible solution, instead of
 fixing just small parts of it, by implementing different techniques for
 each issue.

 lukeplant thank you for pointing about adjectives, because in Lithuanian
 language we have same situation, "Delete selected %(verbose_name_plural)s"
 for masculine gender must be translated to "Ištrinti pažymėt'''us'''
 %(verbose_name_plural)s", and for feminine "Ištrinti pažymėt'''as'''
 %(verbose_name_plural)s".

 In combination mmitar and my proposed solutions solves:

 * number context issues
 * grammatical case issues

 Unsolved issues:

 * adjective agreement (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adjective#Agreement)

 I did some research, but could not find any thing related to this, except
 number context which is included in gettext. Also, gettext has context
 feature that we can reuse.

 To fix adjective agreement issue using proposed solution, we can add
 gender context to translatable strings, that has adjectives describing
 dynamic model name.

 For this, in model's Meta class we need to add {{{ verbose_name_gender
 }}}:

 {{{
 from django.db import models
 from django.utils.translation import Noun

 class Book(models.Model):
 title = models.CharField(max_length=128)

 class Meta:
 verbose_name = Noun('book', gender='feminine')
 }}}

 Then, in strings with model name, we can use some thing like this:

 {{{
 pgettext(model.opts.verbose_name.gender, 'Delete selected
 %(verbose_name)s' % {'verbose_name': model.opts.verbose_name.accusative})
 }}}

 And {{{ makemessages }}}, reading this {{{ Noun('book', gender='feminine')
 }}} will write to .po file both genders and translators will be able to
 translate it correctly.

 So with this, at least for Lithuanian language all issues seems to be
 solved. Solution is still fully backward compatible, and for those, who
 are not interested to support many languages, where model names are used,
 nothing changes. But those, who want to support other languages, will be
 easy to add correct grammatical cases and genders where needed.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by mitar):

 I would just add that when I was opening this ticket, I have mentioned
 also case-matching and not just number-matching in the third paragraph. So
 also in my language only number-matching will not be enough.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by lukeplant):

 This suggestion really isn't going to fix it even for Indo-European
 languages, and I think your claim that it does is based entirely on
 wishful thinking. You haven't shown any stats, just "I believe". (I'm not
 blaming you for this - we've already got at least 70 languages in Django,
 and researching all this correctly would be a huge job).

 For example, take the phrase "Delete selected %(verbose_name_plural)s". In
 French, adjectives must agree with the noun, so the translation of the
 word "selected" needs to agree with the gender of whatever word gets
 inserted into the phrase.

 The current Django translation is: "Supprimer les %(verbose_name_plural)s
 sélectionnés". For all feminine model names, this is incorrect - it should
 be: "Supprimer les %(verbose_name_plural)s sélectionnées" (extra e). In
 other places the current French translations have workarounds like
 "%(object)s supprimé(e)s", where "supprimé(e)s" is a bit like doing
 "book(s)".

 Your proposed solution doesn't accommodate this problem, and it is a very
 basic requirement in many European languages, and probably many others.

 We are currently at a 95% solution:

 * Most sentences/phrases don't need substitutions
 * We can cover noun/number agreement using ngettext(). **The original
 ticket was about fixing an instance where we are not doing that, and we
 should definitely try to fix that case.**

 I agree it would be nice to fix the remaining 5%. But we're not going to
 agree to a solution that involves a large amount of work, causes a very
 significant increase in complexity for developers and actually only fixes
 a small (or completely unknown) fraction of the remaining 5%.

 A more generic solution might look something like this:

 For any translatable string we have:

 * A template
 * A substitution (let's assume just 1 for now)

 Then:

 * Any number of properties of the template might cause a different variant
 of the substitution to be used (e.g. if the substitution is a noun, the
 template sentence might put the noun in the accusative/nominative etc.
 position, causing that variant of the noun to be needed)
 * Any number of properties of the substitution might cause a different
 variant of the template to be used. (e.g. if the substitution is a noun
 and has gender, a different sentence is needed that has the right gender
 adjective).

 (The symmetry between template/substitution and the need for more than one
 substitution makes me think this needs to be modelled in a more general
 way, but I'll carry on for now).

 Now, the properties that cause variants are known to the translators, not
 to the template authors. Translators need a way to specify the properties
 and the variants, probably with some kind of pattern matching language for
 selecting the correct variant.

 However:

 1. I don't know if my analysis really covers it — I suspect at the very
 least that combinatorial explosion of properties/variants could make it
 totally impractical.
 2. I really think that we should not be inventing solutions here. It is a
 general problem, there must be general solutions already invented, and we
 should re-use those, or develop them independently of Django.

 Finally, we shouldn't derail this ticket with these concerns. Thanks so
 much for your work in pushing this ticket forward, but let's have another
 ticket to cover issues beyond noun/number agreement.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by sirex):

 Replying to [comment:9 lukeplant]:
 > I'm sure there are many other things of which I'm unaware. Essentially,
 any attempt to build up sentences by substituting words into a template is
 going to fail. This is a hard problem.

 Using model class name, in human readable context is already a fail. And
 yes, fixing it is a hard problem. For English language it is already
 fixed, by adding 's' or using 'verbose_name_plural' for exceptional cases.
 But current implementation does not work of most languages. What I'm
 trying to do is to make it more flexible and extendible to support most
 Indo-European languages and probably most other languages. I'm sure, that
 this approach will not cover all possible cases, but at least it will
 cover much much more languages, than we have now.

 If you think, that having model class name in human readable context is
 fail, then we should drop this feature at all, to make it work for all
 languages. If you thing, that we should leave this feature, then why you
 refuse to fix all those English-only related places?

 > The questions we can ask are:
 >
 > * how many and how bad are the current failures?

 Current Django admin implementation is heavily hardcoded for English only
 language. My company can't offer Django admin for any client, because out
 of the box, many places uses incorrect word forms. It sounds some thing
 like this: "10 book", that should be "10 books", actually things are much
 worse, because for example Lithuanian language has 15 noun forms and
 Django uses only 2 of them, so most places are incorrect. Unless you
 think, that saying "10 book" is OK?

 I tried to do workarounds with translation files by doing some thing like:
 "New: '{{ name }}'", but it sound unnatural and many places are hardcoded
 in Django admin templates, so even these workarounds are not possible, for
 example in such places like this:

 {{{
 {{ cl.result_count }} {% ifequal cl.result_count 1 %}{{
 cl.opts.verbose_name }}{% else %}{{ cl.opts.verbose_name_plural }}{%
 endifequal %}
 }}}

 So if we want to go this way, we should replace all places in Django admin
 to neutral forms, such like these: "New: {{ name }}", or "Number of {{
 name }} items: {{ count }}". But of course this will sound unnatural. Much
 better "Add {{ name }}" and "{{ count }} {{ name }}".

 > * what fraction would be fixed by adding a certain mechanism (e.g.
 ability to distinguish case)?

 At least for Lithuanian language, separating singular/plural forms,
 replacing all number contexts with ungettext and adding ability to
 distinguish grammatical case would solve all places, all texts would sound
 natural and would be correct. I believe, same approach will work form most
 other Indo-European languages, that has nouns with several grammatical
 cases.

 > * how much will the mechanism require to implement, for Django core
 developers, for template authors and for translators?

 Proposed mechanism is fully backward compatible, since it replace
 verbose_name to string-like object with additional features. And for this,
 to take effect, all places, where verbose_name is used, must be adjusted,
 to correct contextual form, for example: "Add {{
 model.verbose_name.accusative }}". If verbose_name will be left as is,
 then nothing changes. Template authors will have ability to use correct
 model verbose name form if they want.

 Translators of languages with several grammatical cases will have more
 strings to translate, but for languages like English with two noun forms,
 nothing changes.

 > * is the mechanism extendable to deal with things we haven't thought of
 yet?

 Currently, mechanism provides full flexibility for single model verbose
 name text. If a language needs more context, to decide correct noun form,
 this context can be added easily.

 What I can think of is that this mechanism will not work for such cases,
 where not only model name has forms, but surrounding text also some how
 depends on model verbose name case (I'm not sure if any language has
 this).

 > I'm inclined to think that mechanisms that depend on specific language
 features (e.g. agreement, case etc) are the wrong approach, and a more
 

Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by claudep):

 Replying to [comment:9 lukeplant]:
 > I'm sure there are many other things of which I'm unaware. Essentially,
 any attempt to build up sentences by substituting words into a template is
 going to fail. This is a hard problem.

 ++1

 I would be strongly -1 on any solution trying to build translated
 sentences by blocks. It will always fail in a way or another. In the "Add
 {{ name }}" example above, I think that most languages can translate it as
 something like "Add '{{ name }}' object" so as the accusative is on the
 intermediate term (object) and not on "name". That's just an example, but
 each language has to find workarounds adapted to its rules.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by lukeplant):

 The assumption that number and case are sufficient to distinguish all
 forms of a word is wrong.

 For example, there is also agreement:
 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verb#Agreement

 Using the examples given by Wikipedia, and the example above, the word for
 "add" could change depending on the gender of the word used for the model
 for Georgian and Basque.

 There are all kinds of other things too - for example, in Greek (at least
 NT Greek), the choice of case depends on prepositions in such a way that a
 template author could not possibly know which case to use.

 I'm sure there are many other things of which I'm unaware. Essentially,
 any attempt to build up sentences by substituting words into a template is
 going to fail. This is a hard problem. The questions we can ask are:

 * how many and how bad are the current failures?
 * what fraction would be fixed by adding a certain mechanism (e.g. ability
 to distinguish case)?
 * how much will the mechanism require to implement, for Django core
 developers, for template authors and for translators?
 * is the mechanism extendable to deal with things we haven't thought of
 yet?

 I'm inclined to think that mechanisms that depend on specific language
 features (e.g. agreement, case etc) are the wrong approach, and a more
 generic 'context' should be added that allows specific translations for
 specific sentences.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by mitar):

 Vau. That looks good approach.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+

Comment (by sirex):

 Ofter some research, found that it is quite hard to make dynamic model
 names
 display correctly in all languages.

 Actually most languages divides nouns to singular, plural, numeric and
 grammatical case forms.

 Trickiest part is grammatical cases, actually most languages has same
 grammatical cases described here:

 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grammatical_case

 Overall there are these grammatical cases:

 * nominative
 * accusative
 * dative
 * ablative
 * genitive
 * vocative
 * locative
 * instrumental

 Each grammatical case has different singular, plural and numeric forms.

 After trying to put all this in model class, decided, that this heavily
 violates KISS principle, because, each model must describe all possible
 variations of these forms.

 So in my opinion, this feature must be implemented using automatically
 generated strings to .po files leaving models with just one verbose name:

 {{{
 from django.db import models
 from django.utils.translation import Noun

 class Book(models.Model):
 title = models.CharField(max_length=128)

 class Meta:
 verbose_name = Noun('book')
 }}}

 After running {{{./manage.py makemessage -l lt}}}, these strigs must be
 generated:

 {{{
 # nominative
 msgid "book"
 msgstr "knyga"

 msgctxt "plural"
 msgid "books"
 msgstr "knygos"

 msgctxt "numeric"
 msgid "book"
 msgid_plural "books"
 msgstr[0] "knyga"
 msgstr[1] "knygos"
 msgstr[2] "knygų"


 # accusative
 msgctxt "accusative"
 msgid "book"
 msgstr "knygą"

 msgctxt "accusative plural"
 msgid "books"
 msgstr "knygas"

 msgctxt "accusative numberic"
 msgid "book"
 msgid_plural "books"
 msgstr[0] "knygą"
 msgstr[1] "knygas"
 msgstr[2] "knygų"


 # dative
 msgctxt "dative"
 msgid "book"
 msgstr "knygai"

 msgctxt "dative plural"
 msgid "books"
 msgstr "knygoms"

 msgctxt "dative numberic"
 msgid "book"
 msgid_plural "books"
 msgstr[0] "knygai"
 msgstr[1] "knygoms"
 msgstr[2] "knygų"


 # ablative
 ...
 }}}


 Not all languages have grammatical cases and those who have, has not all
 of
 them, so I guess available grammatical cases should be listed in
 {{{django.conf.locale.}}} to get smaller .po files for languages
 that
 does not have grammatical cases.

 Finally, instance of {{{Noun('book')}}} should work this way (all examples
 provided using Lithuanian language, that has all grammatical cases except
 ablative):

 1. Singular forms:

 {{{
 Noun('book')   -> knyga
 Noun('book').accusative-> knygą
 Noun('book').dative-> knygai
 Noun('book').ablative  -> nuo knygos
 Noun('book').genitive  -> knygos
 Noun('book').vocative  -> knyga
 Noun('book').locative  -> knygoje
 Noun('book').instrumental  -> knyga
 }}}

 2. Plural forms:

 {{{
 Noun('book').plural   -> knygos
 Noun('book').plural_accusative-> knygas
 Noun('book').plural_dative-> knygoms
 Noun('book').plural_ablative  -> nuo knygų
 Noun('book').plural_genitive  -> knygų
 Noun('book').plural_vocative  -> knygos
 Noun('book').plural_locative  -> knygose
 Noun('book').plural_instrumental  -> knygomis
 }}}

 3. Numeric forms:

 {{{
 Noun('book')[0]   -> knygų
 Noun('book')[1]   -> knyga
 Noun('book')[2]   -> knygos
 Noun('book')[10]  -> knygų

 Noun('book')[0]   -> knygų
 Noun('book')[0].accusative-> knygų
 Noun('book')[0].dative-> knygų
 Noun('book')[0].ablative  -> nuo knygų
 Noun('book')[0].genitive  -> knygų
 Noun('book')[0].vocative  -> knygų
 Noun('book')[0].locative  -> knygų
 Noun('book')[0].instrumental  -> knygų
 }}}

 In Django code, in all places must be used right noun form. For excample:

 {{{
 {% blocktrans with cl.opts.verbose_name.accusative as name %}
 Add {{ name }}
 {% endblocktrans %}
 }}}

 This way quite many countries will have possibility to translate this to
 correct form.

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  1
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by sirex):

 * cc: sirexas@… (added)
 * needs_better_patch:  0 => 1


Comment:

 I just merged this patch with latest master branch, result is committed to
 cloned branch at https://github.com/sirex/django

 All tests passes.

 I'm planning to look at this issue more in details, test it more deeply.
 Also, I'm planning to extend it not only to support multiple plural forms,
 but also different model name forms by context where model name is used.
 For example, Lithuanian language (same with Russian), has 7 noun forms,
 each form is used depending on context, for example „Add book“ in
 Lithuanian is displayed as „Pridėti knyga“ (in first form), but instead,
 second form should be used: „Pridėti knygą“. Without these forms, Django
 admin looks really corrupted.

 I'm planning to fix these context issues by using pgettext:
 https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/topics/i18n/translation/#contextual-
 markers

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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
--+
 Reporter:  mitar |Owner:  nobody
 Type:  New feature   |   Status:  reopened
Component:  Internationalization  |  Version:  1.1
 Severity:  Normal|   Resolution:
 Keywords:| Triage Stage:  Accepted
Has patch:  1 |  Needs documentation:  0
  Needs tests:  0 |  Patch needs improvement:  0
Easy pickings:  0 |UI/UX:  0
--+
Changes (by ramiro):

 * has_patch:  0 => 1
 * ui_ux:   => 0
 * easy:   => 0


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Re: [Django] #11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number

[Django]

#11688: verbose_name should allow dynamical translation based on a number
---+
  Reporter:  mitar | Owner:  nobody
Status:  reopened  | Milestone:
 Component:  Internationalization  |   Version:  1.1   
Resolution:|  Keywords:
 Stage:  Accepted  | Has_patch:  0 
Needs_docs:  0 |   Needs_tests:  0 
Needs_better_patch:  0 |  
---+
Changes (by russellm):

  * stage:  Unreviewed => Accepted

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