Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/30/2016 07:45 PM, Rick Moen wrote: > > It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective. > I did already, as I mentioned earlier in this thread. For the record, here is the content of my message to him: * Subject: a toxic document? Hello I'm working with the Devuan project, and

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Hendrik Boom (hend...@topoi.pooq.com): > It's possible that he considers toxicity is inherent in the mere > presence of a constitution. Maybe countries need constitutions. Maybe > systems of software just need forking. It doesn't hurt to just _ask_ Joey his perspective. It might

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 11:18:09 -0400, Steve wrote in message <20160730111809.17c29...@mydesk.domain.cxm>: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 10:50:24 +0200 > Jaromil wrote: > > > On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Sat, Jul 30, 2016 at 06:35:39AM +, hellekin wrote: > On 07/29/2016 12:10 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > > > > Can we get Joey Hess to review it? > > > > I sent him a message on IRC and by email including the draft's URL. But > I don't know him personally, so I won't insist. If you're friend

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016 10:50:24 +0200 Jaromil wrote: > On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote: > > > > > > > On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom > > wrote: > > >Can we get Joey Hess to review it? > > > > > >-- hendrik > > > > I don't know him, but i

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Sat, 30 Jul 2016, aitor_czr wrote: > > > On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: > >Can we get Joey Hess to review it? > > > >-- hendrik > > I don't know him, but i think that he would not oppose it :) yes, I think it would be a very healthy iteration for us,

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting emnin...@riseup.net (emnin...@riseup.net): > Hi Rick! Cheerful greetings! > > I see all of them as being > > problems, because they're all managed as CADT-style projects > > (unstable, forever being EOLed and rewritten from scratch, etc.), > > create problems for other codebases, and

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/29/2016 08:53 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote: Can we get Joey Hess to review it? -- hendrik I don't know him, but i think that he would not oppose it :) Aitor. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > It was a corporate LUG. Kill the LUG, every cent in the treasury must > go to a 501C3, so they'd be starting with not a nickel to their name. I suppose that would do it. You may know that I maintain the Linux User Group HOWTO for the Linux

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com): > Nuances?! If it is a subtle difference, it can usually be ignored. Are > you trying to impress me? If that is the case, I am well past the age > of surprise. You're right, my mistake. That wasn't a nuance. You actually missed the _entirety_ of what

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com): > Rich Meon wrote: Seriously, now? Isn't this just a bit childish? > For a "process-person" to claim publishing a manifesto (Debian Social > Contract) and then, unexpectedly, stressing "They do what they think > is best, and claim it best meets the

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Fri, 29 Jul 2016 08:10:40 -0400 Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Fri, Jul 29, 2016 at 10:05:20AM +, hellekin wrote: > > I'm very much concerned that our own Devuan Constitution inherit the > > "toxicity" that Joey Hess interpreted in the Debian Constitution, > > and

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/29/2016 07:28 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote: > > According to you, voters vote for a political party basing their vote > on the party's electoral manifesto, then suddenly when the party wins > the government, they can be told the government does what they think > is best, and claim it best meets

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Rich Meon wrote: << Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com): > The above quote clearly contradicts the scope of Debian Social Contract. > https://www.debian.org/social_contract Ummm... > Item no: 4 is in contradiction of what you are claiming. > > Quote from Debian Social Contract: > << > Our

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/29/2016 06:43 AM, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Rowland Penny (rpenny241...@gmail.com): It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to its users, you can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly isn't that), but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in trouble.

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Edward Bartolo (edb...@gmail.com): > The above quote clearly contradicts the scope of Debian Social Contract. > https://www.debian.org/social_contract Ummm... > Item no: 4 is in contradiction of what you are claiming. > > Quote from Debian Social Contract: > << > Our priorities are our

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Rowland Penny (rpenny241...@gmail.com): > It is a very stupid organisation that doesn't listen to its users, > you can make the best thing in the world (and systemd certainly > isn't that), but if a lot of your users don't want it, you are in > trouble. And this is because all

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Thu, 28 Jul 2016 11:37:48 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Thus, I'm rather surprised that some members (and ejected ex-members, > like Steve Litt) of debian-users seriously expected protracted > lobbying by them as non-members of the project was any sort of > pragmatic plan.

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Hi, Rick Moen wrote: << It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project. It has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers who run it to serve their own perceived needs. And that's pretty much inevitable, given its parliamentary structure and

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 28/07/16 19:37, Rick Moen wrote: It would be pretty much normal and expected for the Debian Project. It has always made it pretty obvious that it's a community of developers who run it to serve their own perceived needs. And that's pretty much inevitable, given its parliamentary structure

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Rob Owens (robowen...@gmail.com): > I would have to say no. I was on debian-user, and saw no poll. There was > a lot of discussion, and the anti-systemd folks were largely ignored or > told "go away, you're bothering us". I subscribed to debian-devel to > monitor and discuss the

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 12:00 AM, Simon Walter wrote: > On 07/26/2016 12:28 PM, Brad Campbell wrote: > >> On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote: >> >> Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out >>> what their users wanted and who were their typical

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Wed, 27 Jul 2016 02:41:39 -0700 Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): > > > What I don't like is tight coupling. > > I'm with you on that. This is why I see the problem as being pretty > much the entire Freedesktop.org 'stack', e.g., upower,

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): > What I don't like is tight coupling. I'm with you on that. This is why I see the problem as being pretty much the entire Freedesktop.org 'stack', e.g., upower, udisks2, D-Bus, udev, and all the rest -- not just systemd. I see all of them as being

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Steve Litt (sl...@troubleshooters.com): > I maintain that, for practical purposes, the preceding quote from dasein > is completely true and not at all loose or rhetorical excess. Let's > replace "init system" with "wheel" and "systemd" with "a car": Your vocabulary word for the day:

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Tue, 7/26/16, Rick Moen <r...@linuxmafia.com> wrote: Subject: Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news To: dng@lists.dyne.org Date: Tuesday, July 26, 2016, 4:09 AM Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): > Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users > wanted

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 13:52:32 +0200, Stephan wrote in message <20160726t134403.ga.9b7e6.s...@fsing.rootsland.net>: > By the way, the systemd-shim package was orphaned in Debian (bug > #832508). Neither the current maintainers nor upstream are interested > in it anymore. ..can we use it (at

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

- Original Message - From: "Simon Walter" <si...@gikaku.com> To: <dng@lists.dyne.org> Sent: Monday, July 25, 2016 10:27 PM Subject: Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news On 07/26/2016 08:03 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:06:09PM +, hellekin wrote:

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 26/07/16 03:27, Simon Walter wrote: > > I have a question about what Simon Richter said on his > blog(http://www.simonrichter.eu/blog/2016-03-03-why-sysvinit.html): > > "Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully > uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Tue, Jul 26, 2016 at 02:09:42AM -0700, Rick Moen wrote: I personally wish there _had_ been pondering of a guiding plan at this point -- and that the Project had decided to dump GNOME, which would have made the original problem go away. Unfortunately, that was not the Maybe this problem,

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/26/2016 06:09 PM, Rick Moen wrote: Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users wanted and who were their typical users? To the based of my recollection, no. To be clear, in the blog passage you quoted, Simon Richter

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Quoting Simon Walter (si...@gikaku.com): > Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users > wanted and who were their typical users? To the based of my recollection, no. To be clear, in the blog passage you quoted, Simon Richter (whoever _he_ is) _didn't assert_ that Debian

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/26/2016 04:27 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote: Simon Walker wrote: << Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support Debian's decision to use

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/26/2016 03:45 PM, Steve Litt wrote: On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:27:20 +0900 Simon Walter wrote: We need to drive a wedge into the FOSS community and separate the desktop users from the professionals. I am sorry to be divisive, but the water is under the bridge and the

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Simon Walker wrote: << Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support Debian's decision to use systemd as the default init for new installs,

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Steve Litt wrote: > I wouldn't split it desktop/server or desktop/professional. It didn't > split that way. Very truthfully, it split smart guys vs dumb guys, with > the dumb ones remaining in Debian. I think you're conflating being intelligent with having values similar to your own. Debian and

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Le 26/07/2016 04:27, Simon Walter a écrit : "Here's the thing: most users will be entirely happy with fully uncustomized systemd. It will suspend your laptop if you close the lid, and even give your download manager veto power. I fully support Debian's decision to use systemd as the default

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Tue, 26 Jul 2016 11:27:20 +0900 Simon Walter wrote: > We need to drive a wedge into the FOSS community and separate the > desktop users from the professionals. I am sorry to be divisive, but > the water is under the bridge and the damage has already been done. You might

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

Friends, This is the most determining battle. If Devuan wins, nothing will defeat us. Edward -- Those who abuse me will be banned immediately from my email account. Here, I am communicating with supposedly intelligent adults who are responsible for their actions.

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/26/2016 12:28 PM, Brad Campbell wrote: On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote: Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users wanted and who were their typical users? Desktop/personal vs. server/professional? yes/no? Did they consult their

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 26/07/16 10:27, Simon Walter wrote: Is that really the case? Did the Debian leadership do a poll to find out what their users wanted and who were their typical users? Desktop/personal vs. server/professional? Did they consult their package survey stats? I wasn't participating in those

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/26/2016 08:03 AM, Adam Borowski wrote: On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:06:09PM +, hellekin wrote: On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig: https://sanitarium.net/x.png Support for init systems, system and service managers: [*]

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 10:06:09PM +, hellekin wrote: > On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > > This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig: > > > > https://sanitarium.net/x.png > > Support for init systems, system and service managers: > > [*] OpenRC, runit and other script

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 07/25/2016 06:07 PM, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig: > > https://sanitarium.net/x.png > Support for init systems, system and service managers: [*] OpenRC, runit and other script based systems and managers [ ] systemd This looks like a

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 09:41:44PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 02:07:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > > This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig: > > > > https://sanitarium.net/x.png > > Whose kernel tree is this? > > Not in Linus', and googling that phrase

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On 25-07-16 20:07, Steve Litt wrote: Hi all, This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig: https://sanitarium.net/x.png SteveT Steve Litt July 2016 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques

Re: [DNG] Ugly, ugly news

On Mon, Jul 25, 2016 at 02:07:07PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote: > This is a screenshot of my buddy's kernel menuconfig: > > https://sanitarium.net/x.png Whose kernel tree is this? Not in Linus', and googling that phrase shows nothing. -- An imaginary friend squared is a real enemy.