Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Rick, would you please cease using negatively charged buzzwords, like "conspiracy theories" while your counterpart is talking about existing legitimate (good or bad but legitimate) business interests and motivations which are _not_ hidden at all. Also, in my humble opinion, the following is a rude ad-hominem pseudo-argument: -Original Message- > From: Dng [mailto:dng-boun...@lists.dyne.org] On Behalf Of Rick Moen via Dng > Sent: den 21 maj 2020 06:07 > Oh, right: > You don't actually understand civil litigation at all. /D ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
On Thu, 21 May 2020 05:13:52 +0100 tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > Citando Steve Litt : > > > This whole discussion balances on the definition of "shell aware". > > What is "shell aware?" > > > > SteveT > > > > > > Have you tried to write shell script code into the execution command > of a systemd unit file? > it doesn't work right?! > Why do you think it doesn't work? Because it's a configuration file, not a script. > > For it to work you need 2 files, ... the service unit , and also a > shell script, You mean the service unit and a binary executable that is the daemon, right? > But SysVInit only needs a script, no service unit required.. so its > more optimized, only a file to control something.. s6 operates the same way as sysvinit, only s6 run scripts are MUCH less complex than sysvinit init scripts. > > Why in hell would you need to create several files to control the > same thing? Its stupid.. In s6 you don't, unless you have a finish script to define what happens when the daemon terminates. [snip stuff I don't understand] > The Linux Stadard Base, > have defines the LSB Headers, as a way to control the services.. Yeah, meaningful comments: What could *possibly* go wrong? With s6 and runit, if you want runlevels (and I don't), you achieve them with directories that can be symlinked. > > And their definition was in the same file as the daemon is.. > So we expect only 1 file.. Huh? One other thing: Although I prefer sysvinit to systemd (by a wide margin), I'm not against using multiple files to do something. Truth be told, with sysvinit I'd rather they have multiple files for start, stop, restart and the like, than the typical 100+ line behemoths exhibited by sysvinit and OpenRC. I have a suggestion. The Obarun distro comes stock with the s6 init, together with some helper software called "66". I suggest you install Obarun somewhere, and add a couple daemons of your own. You'll see exactly what files are necessary, and exactly what the supervisor part of s6 does, and you can let us all know. Thanks, SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Felker Init: was without-systemd.org not working
>> On 21 May 2020, at 17:31, Steve Litt wrote: >> >> On Thu, 21 May 2020 05:13:52 +0100 >> tux...@sapo.pt wrote: >> >> Citando Steve Litt : >>> This whole discussion balances on the definition of "shell aware". >>> What is "shell aware?" >>> SteveT >> Have you tried to write shell script code into the execution command >> of a systemd unit file? >> it doesn't work right?! >> Why do you think it doesn't work? > > Because it's a configuration file, not a script. I think they mean the specific “ExecStart=” line in the unit file that references the executable file and it’s arguments to run when the service is started. https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/systemd.service.html Ref: § Command Lines - - -8<- - - This syntax is inspired by shell syntax, but only the meta-characters and expansions described in the following paragraphs are understood, and the expansion of variables is different. Specifically, redirection using "<", "<<", ">", and ">>", pipes using "|", running programs in the background using "&", and other elements of shell syntax are not supported. - - -8<- - -___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 21/05/2020 à 11:39, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp a écrit : When you take a look at "government media" in EU and Austria in particular you will find that there's a bashing of people not conforming with mainstream media. Narrative goes "you do not love your goverment, you think there's a hidden agenda, so you belive in UFOs which proofs you are right winged". You might think of this as a conspiracy on it's own, even when you find out that Boston Consulting runs thinktank of Kurz ... which is definitly a proof that I'm wearing a tinfoil head ... I'm absolutely sure there's a semi-hidden agenda in the EU and in my own country. It is not explicitely hidden, but the media and the politicians neither display nor discuss it, which let it ignored by most the people. You might get hints by reading the economic press, in which antisocial and antidemocratic plots are discussed shamelessly. What reassures me is that the fraction of idiots amongst the conspirators is not smaller than their fraction in the general population, and therefore they make big mistakes (~: Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Le 21/05/2020 à 02:05, Steve Litt a écrit : Rick Moen via Dng wrote: conspiracy hypothesis. Conspiracies happen. Not every event is brought forth by a single person. I remember a time when scads of us Linux enthusiasts conspired to depose Microsoft. "Conspiracy theory" is not an insult, regardless of how people use the phrase. I bet conspiracies happen all the time. Many people spend time conspiring. But very few conspirations succeed or even have a little effect. But it isn't the case here. When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. Discussing the effect and the cause of these actions does not mean we consider it a conspiracy. One of the characters of a conspiracy is to be secret. In the case of RedHat, it isn't, they have stated it publicly. Didier ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
If LP doesn't see the obvious benefit of making systemd optional, I
can't see that he'd go to the trouble of creating a plug-and-play setup
to allow alternatives to systemd to get in on the act. (Would a dictator
suggest the tryout of other political systems, to see how they stacked
up against autocracy?)
I think that the thing that I found tantalising was the idea of sniffing
what systemd tried to do, and then deciding whether or not to do it, and
what responses to send back to systemd. I had a mental image of a
convicted gangster directing the mob from his or her prison cell -
he/she can give out the instructions, but is entirely dependent on what
feedback is relayed from outside the jail. ("The Taking of Pelham 123" -
they're trying to get the money to the subway station before any more
hostages get shot, and aren't going to make it. In a flash of
inspiration, Garber, the train dispatcher, realises that the crooks have
no way of knowing what's happening on the surface, so tells them the
money's arrived before it actually does).
One possible real benefit of a glue/abstraction/jail layer did occur to
me. Eventually, it would itself become an init system, with a
distillation of (hopefully) the best bits of all the init systems which
had used it.
I totally agree re. PID1 and the need for simplicity. Maybe I should
just get out more (eventually, anyway ;) )
On Wed, 2020-05-20 at 18:45 -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> On Tue, 19 May 2020 10:29:02 +0100
> Peter Duffy wrote:
>
> > Apologies for following up on my own post - just an afterthought.
> >
> > When I originally encountered systemd, the word was that it was so
> > pervasive that it couldn't be removed (obviously, now we know
> > different ;) )
> >
> > Given the alleged non-optionality of systemd, I started to wonder
> > about some kind of an init system wrapper (or even jail) - an
> > abstraction layer which would sit between the init subsystem and the
> > main system, and sanitise and homogenise interactions between the
> > two; init systems, including systemd, could be plugged and unplugged
> > into the top surface as desired; the abstraction layer would manage
> > commands and responses (including lying to the init subsystem if the
> > latter tried to do something dangerous or antisocial).
>
> Oh please don't suggest this: Poettering might do it.
>
> The job of an init system (not systemd, that's a software analogy of
> those old electronic circuits encased in epoxy so nobody could reverse
> engineer them) is to:
>
> 1) Run as PID1, listening for certain
>
> 2) PID1 forks off early boot stuff to mount, unencrypt, construct
> devices, set up the network, and the like.
>
> 3) PID1 forks off a daemon handler. The best daemon handlers are, in my
> opinion, djb style process supervisors like daemontools, runit and
> s6.
>
> 4) Upon receipt of a certain signal, PID1 forks or execs the shutdown
> script.
>
> It really is just that simple. There's no need to add anything to
> accommodate badly behaved init system authors.
>
> SteveT
>
> Steve Litt
> May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques
> of the Successful Technologist
> http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques
> ___
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
___
Dng mailing list
Dng@lists.dyne.org
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 21 May 11:30:31 +0200 Didier Kryn scripsit: > Le 21/05/2020 à 02:05, Steve Litt a écrit : > > Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > > > >> conspiracy hypothesis. > > Conspiracies happen. Not every event is brought forth by a single > > person. I remember a time when scads of us Linux enthusiasts conspired > > to depose Microsoft. "Conspiracy theory" is not an insult, regardless > > of how people use the phrase. > > > I bet conspiracies happen all the time. Many people spend time > conspiring. But very few conspirations succeed or even have a little > effect. But it isn't the case here. When you take a look at "government media" in EU and Austria in particular you will find that there's a bashing of people not conforming with mainstream media. Narrative goes "you do not love your goverment, you think there's a hidden agenda, so you belive in UFOs which proofs you are right winged". You might think of this as a conspiracy on it's own, even when you find out that Boston Consulting runs thinktank of Kurz ... which is definitly a proof that I'm wearing a tinfoil head ... Nik > > When a company takes action to increase its share of the market > and/or its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is > legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. > Discussing the effect and the cause of these actions does not mean we > consider it a conspiracy. One of the characters of a conspiracy is to be > secret. In the case of RedHat, it isn't, they have stated it publicly. > > Didier > > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting g4sra via Dng (dng@lists.dyne.org): > Um, is this what you were referring to ? > https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-closes-landmark-acquisition-red-hat-34-billion-defines-open-hybrid-cloud-future Oh, _do_ go on, sir. Sadly, I'm guessing you actually have no plan to flesh out the mechanics of how RHAT, with or without IBM acquisition, would have stood over this past decade to gain a better competitive market position relative to other market-involved Linux distributions and/or improved financial strength from involvement with (open source) systemd development. Because that is pretty much conspiratorial drivel with only confused and non-process thinking behind it. Of course, you aren't Didier Kryn, the person I asked. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On 2020-05-20 18:45, Steve Litt wrote: > It really is just that simple. There's no need to add anything to > accommodate badly behaved init system authors. I wanted to add: 5. reaping orphan processes when they die but I had the good sense to read the wikipedia article "Orphan process" first, and it seems that is no longer necessarily true: https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/250153/what-is-a-subreaper-process -- Ian ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
On 21/05/2020 21:24, Rick Moen via Dng wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > >> When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or >> its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is >> legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. > > And, in the matter at hand, RHAT's underwriting of Mr. Poettering's salary > and acceptance of his codebase for the past decade has gained it a > better market position and/or improved financial strength _how_, exactly? Um, is this what you were referring to ? https://www.redhat.com/en/about/press-releases/ibm-closes-landmark-acquisition-red-hat-34-billion-defines-open-hybrid-cloud-future > > Take your time explaining. Having passed the Certified Public > Accountant exam back in the day, I am pretty sure I'll be able cope with > any financial analytics you adduce. And I'm modestly familiar with > Linux firms on account of, y'know, employment in them. (RHAT is one > of the relative few where I've never worked.) > Why are we (DNG mailing list) going over this same old same old again ? I haven't bothered searching, as I don't want to wade through all the hits... On second thoughts.. keep it up guys (and gals) this may be a cure to my insomnia. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > When a company takes action to increase its share of the market and/or > its cash flow, we normally do not call that a conspiration. It is > legitimate to write about it and discuss the actions it takes. And, in the matter at hand, RHAT's underwriting of Mr. Poettering's salary and acceptance of his codebase for the past decade has gained it a better market position and/or improved financial strength _how_, exactly? Take your time explaining. Having passed the Certified Public Accountant exam back in the day, I am pretty sure I'll be able cope with any financial analytics you adduce. And I'm modestly familiar with Linux firms on account of, y'know, employment in them. (RHAT is one of the relative few where I've never worked.) -- Cheers, Founding member of the Hyphenation Society, a grassroots-based, Rick Moen not-for-profit, locally-owned-and-operated, cooperatively-managed, r...@linuxmafia.com modern-American-English-usage-improvement association. McQ! (4x80) ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Mixing different init benefits: was: without-systemd.org not working
On Thu, 21 May 2020 10:59:15 +0100 Peter Duffy wrote: > I think that the thing that I found tantalising was the idea of > sniffing what systemd tried to do, and then deciding whether or not > to do it, Many have tried this. Web search "uselessd". But your suggestion becomes much more valuable if expressed as "sniffing what each init system tried to do, and then deciding whether or not to do it". * Busybox init * Epoch * OpenRC * Runit * s6 (plus s6-rc) * Suckess init plus [daemontools | runit | s6] * systemd * sysvinit > and what responses to send back to systemd. If you mean the daemon reports back to the process supervisor success or failure, s6 has that now, in a much simpler form than systemd's dbus-centered bizarro. And such reporting isn't all that necessary because the admin can roll his own tests. If you mean do this research and report the research results back to the systemd project, I'm not interested in helping systemd, and systemd isn't interested in anything making them more interoperative. SteveT Steve Litt May 2020 featured book: Troubleshooting Techniques of the Successful Technologist http://www.troubleshooters.com/techniques ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] without-systemd.org not working
Quoting dal (d...@chalmers.se): > would you please cease using negatively charged buzzwords, like > "conspiracy theories" It's not necessarily derogation to use that and similar phrases: It's description. To quote Richard Hostadter's ground-breaking 1964 article: Nothing really prevents a sound program or demand from being advocated in the paranoid style. Style has more to do with the way in which ideas are believed than with the truth or falsity of their content. Nothing prevents such theorising from being utimately found to be well-founded, at least in theory. It's just an odd and recurring style of thinking and expression that appeals to some people in every era, because it reduces complex reality to a simple, orderly, centrally administered plan. Probably unlike you, I'm an American, and so I've been living around a minority population of paranoid conspiracy people all my life. I don't dislike them necessarily. I just find them odd and distinctive. > while your counterpart is talking about existing legitimate (good or > bad but legitimate) business interests and motivations which are _not_ > hidden at all. ...and drawing non-sequitur conclusions from that. > Also, in my humble opinion, the following is a rude ad-hominem > pseudo-argument: Again, it's simple observation. Steve, demonstrably, grossly misunderstands the operation of civil litigation. That doesn't make him a bad person. _Most_ people grossly misunderstand legal matters -- albeit most have the common sense to not make unsupportable claims on that subject on worldwide mailing lists. Oh, and that's not a humble opinion. ;-> Please see also: http://linuxmafia.com/~rick/lexicon.html#moenslaw-debate2 (It is not the fallacy of argumentum ad hominem to assert that something someone said was grossly mistaken. You should probably look up what the term actually means.) Oh, and: > Rick, Hmm, if we're going to be on a first-name basis, it would be more appropriate for you to include your own name, and not just take personal potshots at others from behind cover of an Internet pseudonym. ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] f2fs and beowulf: installation
Anno domini 2020 Thu, 21 May 13:09:32 +0100 ael scripsit: > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 05:04:57AM +0100, tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > > I forgot.. > > The bootloader needs support for f2fs, but since you are able to launch the > > kernel, it should be supported by definition( it loads the kernel into > > memory...so it access the block device.. ).. > > But you need the f2fs module in the initramfs as well, so that might be > the problem. See also > http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21951#p21951 Not with the "stock" kernel you get when running rpi-update. It has f2fs built in, not as a module. I doublechecked that yesterday :) > > ael > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > -- Please do not email me anything that you are not comfortable also sharing with the NSA, CIA ... ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] f2fs and beowulf: installation
On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 07:03:45PM +0200, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Anno domini 2020 Thu, 21 May 13:09:32 +0100 > ael scripsit: > > On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 05:04:57AM +0100, tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > > > I forgot.. > > > The bootloader needs support for f2fs, but since you are able to launch > > > the > > > kernel, it should be supported by definition( it loads the kernel into > > > memory...so it access the block device.. ).. > > > > But you need the f2fs module in the initramfs as well, so that might be > > the problem. See also > > http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21951#p21951 > > Not with the "stock" kernel you get when running rpi-update. It has f2fs > built in, not as a module. I doublechecked that yesterday :) That's good to know. I guess I should check for amd64 which is what I am looking at just now. On debian config-5.6.0-1-amd64 it seems to be a module, so I guess the same will be true of devuan. ael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] f2fs and beowulf: installation
On Thu, May 21, 2020 at 05:04:57AM +0100, tux...@sapo.pt wrote: > I forgot.. > The bootloader needs support for f2fs, but since you are able to launch the > kernel, it should be supported by definition( it loads the kernel into > memory...so it access the block device.. ).. But you need the f2fs module in the initramfs as well, so that might be the problem. See also http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=21951#p21951 ael ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
