Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Steve Litt]

On Sun, 23 Jul 2017 01:12:52 +0200
Dragan FOSS  wrote:

> On 07/23/2017 12:57 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > And, as this thread goes, you're not going to run a bloated DE on
> > such an underpowered machine, are you?  
> 
> Traditional Amish buggy is undoubtedly efficient and usable 
> transportation...for some people ;>

You guys really don't get what KatolaZ was saying, do you?

Average yearly income per-capita in Sub-Saharan Africa is $2,041.00 per
year:

http://global-growing.org/en/content/fact-7-about-three-quarters-african-population-live-less-2-half-population-less-125-day

If somebody in Africa manages to cannibalize a few Pentiums, mix and
match parts to produce a functional computer, and find a way to afford
the 300 watts it costs to run it for an hour or so a week, such a person
would be mighty thankful for a good 32 bit Linux.

Must be nice, living in the West, to assume the disposable income to
buy a new car every 15 years or buy a computer every 10 years, but
there are places where such things are scarce and competed over.

There are places in this world where an Amish buggy, let alone a 1992
Chevy Lumina, would be an unaffordable luxury, and I have a feeling the
inhabitants of those places are what KatolaZ was talking about.

SteveT

Steve Litt 
July 2017 featured book: Quit Joblessness: Start Your Own Business
http://www.troubleshooters.com/startbiz
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Gregory Nowak (g...@gregn.net):

> Guess in that case we should point that out also to the people who
> still own and use historic cars from the last century for example.

The people who still own and use historic cars do so in the knowledge
that, over time, it tends to be an expensive hobby.  Also (obviously), 
old cars bear their age a great deal better than do old computers.

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com):

> lscpu
[...]
> Model name:  Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz
[...]
> dmidecode --string bios-release-date
> 12/21/2007

Thank you for that, Allesandro.  Wikipedia's article on the Pentium 4
says this stepping was the _final_ Pentium 4 (if I'm reading that part
of the entry correctly) and was released in _2004_, using the 130 nm
Northwood core.  (Reading further, I see that the Pentium  That line's
immediate successor was the Pentium D (2005), Pentium D Extreme Edition
(2005), and Pentium 4 HT (2006) -- all x86_64-capable.)

So, I of course take as valuable information that your BIOS date was
from the end of 2007, but the CPU was being phased out in favour of
x86_64 two-plus years before that.

IMO, my points about 14-year-old gear being fragile specialty items
also applies to 12- and 10-year old computers.  And, if you bought your
unit around 2007, you _could_ instead have bought x86_64 as
future-proofing.

On the matter that Adam mentioned about power draw (what the Yanks call
AC power, and the Brits call mains power):  When my firm VA Linux
Systems was getting out of the hardware business because of the Dot-Com
market crash, many of us employees stocked up on the flagship VA Linux
Systems model 2230, a 2U rackmount unit w/Intel L440GX "Lancewood"
motherboard and PIII 'Coppermine' 800-1GHz CPU, because they were very
good, cheap, and with bountiful parts.  A few people who imagined
themselves lucky acquired VA Linux's last product, model 1124, a 1U with
Tyan Thunder K7 motherboard, dual Athlon 760MP CPUs, custom PSU, and
carefully engineered (& patented) case cooling.

It needed the very carefully engineered cooling because the pair of
Athlon 760MPs put out tremendous amounts of heat, which of course the
operator also pays for in the shape of electric bills.  Intel followed
the Athlon's example (meaning, releasing CPUs that tremendously
increased power draw).  For many years, you could not have 48 x 1U units
in a standard server rack, with either AMD or Intel flagship CPUs,
because the racks' PDUs could not deliver that much power.  It took both
firms many years to apply power-saving techniques from their mobile
lines to the flagship ones.  

And, getting back to my point, your Northwood-core Pentium 4 with 3.40
GHz clock speed has a TDP of 89 Watts -- because the entire P4 line and
several of its successors sucked power at an amazing rate relative to
prior Intel (and AMD) CPUs.  My Coppermine PIII has a TDP of 20.8 Watts.

Now, sure, TDP = thermal design power is only ambiguously a measure of
real power draw, as denotes the largest amount of heat output the CPU's
related cooling systems will be called upon to dissipate when running a
mix of real applications.  But let's say it's a reasonable approximation
of real power draw, and the only thing the industry so far consistently
publishes.  

Echoing Adam's point, the cost of each CPU sucking, on a 24x7 basis for
us server people, 4x the draw of a PIII really adds up, over time, and
costs significant money.  And that, in turn, is actually why I delayed
retiring my spare Pentium III boxes and am still using one in 2017:
Because the entire P4-class architecture sucked too much power, that I'd
have to pay for in my electric bill.  (Luckily, 2GB RAM has been enough
for that application, and it can easily saturate the aDSL link its
static IP lives on.)  

My intended replacement, still under construction using Devuan, will
reduce power cost to a pittance:  CompuLab Intense PC w/16GB RAM,
Celeron 847E 1.1 GHz dual-core, pair of mirrored SSDs on eSATA in
external enclosures.  I'm not sure of the total draw yet, but think it
will be almost nothing -- thus even more cheap to run (not to mention
silent and ultra-cool).

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Clark Sideroad]

On 22/07/17 05:26 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:50:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:

you  might probably want to have a look at:

   http://popcon.devuan.org/

Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that
between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently
there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite.

Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at.  There's no way
that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms
from 2008).

In a small segment of geekdom, where a mobile phone or a tablet don't 
cut it, I believe there are quite a few Atom 32bit netbooks still in use.


Intel fused off 64 bit Atoms making them 32 bit for the poor little 
suckers, the time frame on these extended through 2010. They were also 
limited to a maximum of 2 GB RAM.


I personally use one for troubleshooting network installations and 
tuning my motorbike and while such hardware is no place for a bloated 
desktop environment, I would hate to find it completely orphaned by Devuan.


Clarke



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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Gregory Nowak]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 03:51:54PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):
> > All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing
> > their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation
> > (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is
> > as popular as lame these days...)
> > 
> > Why should Devuan do the same?
> 
> IMO:  Because of the year on the current calendar.

Guess in that case we should point that out also to the people who
still own and use historic cars from the last century for example.

Greg


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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Alessandro Selli]

On 23/07/2017 at 00:51, Rick Moen wrote:

[...]

> to the
> best of my recollection everyone moved to a x86_64 flavour around
> 2003-ish (or exited the market).  So, I estimate that these computers
> are at least 14 years old.

lscpu
Architecture:i686
CPU op-mode(s):  32-bit
Byte Order:  Little Endian
CPU(s):  2
On-line CPU(s) list: 0,1
Thread(s) per core:  2
Core(s) per socket:  1
Socket(s):   1
Vendor ID:   GenuineIntel
CPU family:  15
Model:   2
Model name:  Intel(R) Pentium(R) 4 CPU 3.40GHz
Stepping:9
CPU MHz: 3400.090
BogoMIPS:6802.52
Flags:   fpu vme de pse tsc msr pae mce cx8 apic sep mtrr pge
mca cmov pat pse36 clflush dts acpi mmx fxsr sse sse2 ss ht tm pbe pebs bts
cpuid cid xtpr

dmidecode --string bios-release-date
12/21/2007


  Bye,


Alessandro

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 03:51:54PM -0700, Rick Moen wrote:
> Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):
> 
> > Strange as it may sound to you, yes, there are still many users who
> > are using i386 hw, and the only reasonable way for them to continue
> > use those hw is by having Linux.
> 
> While I'm sure this is true for some number of people, aren't these now
> incredibly old computers?  (I say this as someone still running his
> flagship Internet server on an antique PIII, by the way.)
> 
> [Long list of makers] everyone moved to a x86_64 flavour around
> 2003-ish (or exited the market).  So, I estimate that these computers
> are at least 14 years old.

> I mean, I did install Debian m68k on an antique (circa 1990) Apple
> Macintosh IIci -- 25 MHz Motorola 68030 CPU, 4MB standard RAM expandable
> using up to 16 x 4 MB 80ns 30-pin SIMMs, SCSI 40MB hard disk -- and 
> you can still do that in 2017, but... really.  Friends asked me how it
> ran Debian, and I replied 'Well, it walked Debian briskly.'

Both are in the hobbyist-only niche.  Preserving old gear for future
generations is a noble goal, but running newest eye-candy on hardware that
old is not an effective use of a distribution's limited resources.

> > All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing
> > their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation
> > (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is
> > as popular as lame these days...)

If you want a motivation, measure the juice taken by that i386 box.  One I
have (well, amd64 but from that era) takes 222W under light load or 185W when
totally idle.  Its replacement takes 15W with two disks attached.  One
Watt-year is around $1, depending on country ($1.25 in Poland, $3.2 in
Germany).

Another box from that era, this time 32-bit only, with an "energy efficient"
model of Pentium 4, takes 110W idle, 170W under moderate load.

I guess those Atoms take a lot less than that, but are also far less
capable.  Any of these can't hold a candle even to a modern ARM SoC.

Thus, it's not that financially-limited people can't afford to upgrade. 
They can't afford to _not_ upgrade.  They won't want an ARM, but an used x86
can be had for peanuts or literally free.  Plenty of acceptable machines
get thrown away.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Dragan FOSS]

On 07/23/2017 12:57 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:

And, as this thread goes, you're not going to run a bloated DE on such an
underpowered machine, are you?


Traditional Amish buggy is undoubtedly efficient and usable 
transportation...for some people ;>


https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/43/Traditional_Amish_buggy.jpg
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:29:36PM +0100, Vincent Bentley wrote:
> Intel are not the only x86 cpu manufacturer.
> 
> I use a lot of VIA Eden equipped devices (thin-clients) 32-bit, 1+ GHz,
> 1GB RAM usually. They run fine on 12v batteries charged by solar, have
> no problems being mounted in vehicles (land or marine) and are fully
> featured with IDE/SATA and network boot ROMs unlike most ARM devices.

If I read the specs correctly, all VIA Eden CPUs released 2006 or later are
64-bit capable.  As far as I know, some motherboard chipsets that were
32-bit only lingered longer, but I'm not aware of any
not-thoroughly-embedded x86 machines that have this flaw anywhere near
recently.

And, as this thread goes, you're not going to run a bloated DE on such an
underpowered machine, are you?  Especially that (at least in Jessie, no idea
about more recent versions) parts of GNOME that Cinnamon uses require either
a graphics card with some fancy specific capabilities, or very slow
emulation in software.  A weak machine + slow software emulation of 3D =
oy vey gevalt.


Meow!
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Rick Moen]

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):

> Strange as it may sound to you, yes, there are still many users who
> are using i386 hw, and the only reasonable way for them to continue
> use those hw is by having Linux.

While I'm sure this is true for some number of people, aren't these now
incredibly old computers?  (I say this as someone still running his
flagship Internet server on an antique PIII, by the way.)

While you can point to various IA-32 CPUs produced over the years by
Intel/Harris Corporation/Chips and Technologies, AMD/NexGen,
VIA/Centaur/IDT, Transmeta, Cyrix/TI/SGS-Thomson/IBM/National
Semiconductor, NEC, Siemens, Rise Technology, United Microelectronics
Corporation/Meridian Semiconductor, UMC, DM Electronics/SiS, ZF Micro,
Zet, RDC Semiconductors, ao486, ALi, Nvidia,and possibly others, to the
best of my recollection everyone moved to a x86_64 flavour around
2003-ish (or exited the market).  So, I estimate that these computers
are at least 14 years old.

I nurse along a totally obsolete 2001 rackmount beast myself, so I won't
preach to others against doing so, but decade-plus-old computers are
fragile and require specialty parts if it's ever necessary to repair
them.  Which, I would argue, is one of a number of reasons why this is
fairly considered a specialty niche in 2017, that actually merits
discouraging for new installations.

I mean, I did install Debian m68k on an antique (circa 1990) Apple
Macintosh IIci -- 25 MHz Motorola 68030 CPU, 4MB standard RAM expandable
using up to 16 x 4 MB 80ns 30-pin SIMMs, SCSI 40MB hard disk -- and 
you can still do that in 2017, but... really.  Friends asked me how it
ran Debian, and I replied 'Well, it walked Debian briskly.'


> All those users are being left without any other choice than throwing
> their hw away by many distributions, without a concrete motivation
> (well, except the usual "it's old so it must be thrown away", which is
> as popular as lame these days...)
> 
> Why should Devuan do the same?

IMO:  Because of the year on the current calendar.
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Vincent Bentley]

Intel are not the only x86 cpu manufacturer.

I use a lot of VIA Eden equipped devices (thin-clients) 32-bit, 1+ GHz,
1GB RAM usually. They run fine on 12v batteries charged by solar, have
no problems being mounted in vehicles (land or marine) and are fully
featured with IDE/SATA and network boot ROMs unlike most ARM devices.


On 22/07/17 22:26, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:50:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
>> you  might probably want to have a look at:
>>
>>   http://popcon.devuan.org/
>>
>> Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that
>> between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently
>> there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite.
> 
> Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at.  There's no way
> that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms
> from 2008).
> 



smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME Cryptographic Signature
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[KatolaZ]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 11:26:56PM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:

[cut]

> > Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that
> > between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently
> > there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite.
> 
> Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at.  There's no way
> that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms
> from 2008).
> 

Ever thought about the possibility that some people out there might
not have the same opportunity you have to update your hw every couple
of years or less? :)

Strange as it may sound to you, yes, there are still many users who
are using i386 hw, and the only reasonable way for them to continue
use those hw is by having Linux. All those users are being left
without any other choice than throwing their hw away by many
distributions, without a concrete motivation (well, except the usual
"it's old so it must be thrown away", which is as popular as lame
these days...)

Why should Devuan do the same?

HND

KatolaZ

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Rick Moen]

Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):

> Juergen Moebius writes:
> >No, not only Devuan. You forgot the great "Slackware",
> >the mother of Linux distributions.
> 
> If we're going to go into ancient history — Slackware was
> (simplifying) a fork of SLS, but SLS wasn't the first either. Either
> ABC or H. J. Lu's nameless microdistribution might be considered to
> be the mother of linux distributions, IMO ABC is closest to that
> epithet. The first to use the source+patches approach was called
> Bogus Linux.

FWIW, starting somewhere in 1992 or 1993 (can't remember for sure), I
actually ftp'd from tsx-11.mit.edu and used H. J. Lu's root-boot
floppy images that were available starting not long after Torvald's
comp.os.minux announcement on Aug. 25, 1991 and first public release 
on Sept. 17, 1991 (or rather, a system painfully constructed by
compilation based on Lu's images as a starting point) for something like a
year, before I became aware of Slackware and, with considerable
gratitude, switched to that.  Before that, I'd not been aware of
Softlanding Systems's SLS Linux[1], MCC Interim Linux[2] from Manchester
Computing Centre, TAMU[3] (from Texas A University), DLD (Deutsche
Linux-Distribution)[4], this ABC thing you mention[5], or even Yggdrasil
Plug-and-Play Linux[6] even though Adam Richter & Bill Selmeier's firm 
was in the San Francisco Bay Area, where I live.

Back in those days and until around '95 or so in my area, the community
was much more fragmentary, and I don't feel at all sheepish about having
heard the news about Freax^W Linux distributions only slowly even though
if I'd been an avid reader of comp.os.*, I'd have gotten there sooner.  

But I can say, having done so, that building and maintaining a Linux
system based on Lu's images was such a rather painful hair-shirt-wearing
experience that I think you can call it a 'Linux distribution' only by
stretching the modern concept.  Slack (well, maybe Yggdrasil, actually)
was the first that had _all_ of the essential traits, and was designed
to be fully featured and reasonably maintainable within the expectations
of the day.[7]  (The standard view is that SLS, MCC, TAMU, DLD, and
Yggdrasil, predating Slackware, were earlier qualifiers as 'Linux
distributions' but that Lu's images weren't.  It depends on your criteria.)


[1] First released in May 1992.
[2] First made available unofficially (by a third party) via ftp in  
November 1991, but then released Feb. 1992.  
[3] Distribution released in May 1992.
[2] Distribution released some time in 1992.
[5] I'm not doubting your citation, but for the record I've never heard
of this, only of a couple of much-more-recent distrubtions of the 
same name that one finds while Web-searching.
[6] Announced on Nov. 24, 1992 and released Dec. 8, 1992, but Richter &
Selmeier made it available -- notably as the first live-CD distribution --  
only for the then-significant price of US $99 for quite a long time, 
so few people tried it.
[7] Slackware got its start as Patrick Volkerding's patchset for SLS
Linux.

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 05:39:44PM -0400, Renaud OLGIATI wrote:
> On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:26:56 +0200
> Adam Borowski  wrote:
> 
> > Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at.  There's no way
> > that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms
> > from 2008).
> 
> Dont we have stats on how many download the 386 version, against how many for 
> 64 ?

Not sure if mirrors provide download stats; popcon is probably good enough.

What I'm talking about is running i386 on 64-bit-capable CPUs.  You can
check that by ｢grep '^flags.*\bnx\b' /proc/cpuinfo｣ or checking the op-mode
field in what lscpu says.

There's a long list of reasons why that's a bad idea, especially when kernel
is concerned; the only reason to the contrary is some memory saving in
pointer-heavy code.  32-bit code also sees almost no upstream testing
(at least on x86).

If the machine has >2GB ram, running a 32-bit kernel should be a crime.

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Adam Borowski]

On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 06:50:19AM +0100, KatolaZ wrote:
> you  might probably want to have a look at:
> 
>   http://popcon.devuan.org/
> 
> Whatever the statistical significance of those data, it seems that
> between 15% and 20% of Devuan installations are on i386. So apparently
> there is no reason at all to drop it, rather the opposite.

Then this looks like a problem that needs to be looked at.  There's no way
that many people use gear from ≤ 2004 (or a brief throwback of early Atoms
from 2008).

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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Arnt Gulbrandsen]

Juergen Moebius writes:

No, not only Devuan. You forgot the great "Slackware",
the mother of Linux distributions.


If we're going to go into ancient history — Slackware was (simplifying) a 
fork of SLS, but SLS wasn't the first either. Either ABC or H. J. Lu's 
nameless microdistribution might be considered to be the mother of linux 
distributions, IMO ABC is closest to that epithet. The first to use the 
source+patches approach was called Bogus Linux.


Arnt

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Re: [DNG] reportbug is the stable repository

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 22:21:53 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20170722022153.gb8...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 11:45:23AM -0400, Boruch Baum wrote:
> 
> > The bad news is that if this is the only step I take, "apt-get" will
> > want to upgrade 1248 packages (it looks more impressive when I
> > write it out . . One Thousand, Two Hundred and Forty Eight
> > packages) with a download size of 608 Mb.
> 
> There really needs to be a way of doing this in a staged manner, 
> i.e., not all at once, for those who don't have huge disk space 
> available.

..there is, use aptitude, "u" to update, "U" to upgrade, 
":" to pick stuff to hold back until "next time."

-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] [Desktop-Environment] Cinnamon and MATE

[Arnt Karlsen]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 22:17:09 -0400, Hendrik wrote in message 
<20170722021709.ga8...@topoi.pooq.com>:

> On Fri, Jul 21, 2017 at 08:14:43PM -0500, John Morris wrote:
> > On Fri, 2017-07-21 at 16:25 -0500, Don Wright wrote:
> > > Dragan FOSS wrote:
> > > >I think it's best to drop 32-bit support at all... it's such a
> > > >waste of time and resources.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > As long as you're pruning, kill x64 as well, because the majority
> > > of computers sold are using ARM architecture and run Android or
> > > iOS.
> > 
> > I think you are joking, but it helps not to confuse the three big
> > forks
> > 
> > 1.  Linux / GNU / X, this is the fork Devuan is on and few Devuan
> > installs are on ARM.  At this late date, there probably aren't many
> > on x86_32 either.  Which is why discussion of eliminating a big
> > chunk or archive space and compile time will continue to recur
> > until eventually nobody can muster a good argument for continuing.
> 
> I'm still on a 32-bit Intel machine, and given an OS with the 
> fficiency of Devuan, it's perfectly capable of doing what I need.
> Does this count as an x86_32?  If so, I'd be happy with Devuan
> keeping it for a long time yet.  If not, I'd like to know what it
> *does* count as.
> 
> hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ uname -a
> Linux notlookedfor 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.43-2 
> (2017-04-30) i686 GNU/Linux
> hendrik@notlookedfor:~$ 
> 
> I'm *thinking* of upgrading, butt until I can get a better laptop
> that doesn't have significant vulnerabilities baked into the
> *hardware*, I'd rather keep using what I've got.
> 
> -- hendrik

..aaand, it will run nicely on any on these once they get the manpower
they need to get restarted, which BTW is a nice way to grab those guys
over here to Devuan.  
From https://www.debian.org/ports/:
hurd-i386   32-bit PC (i386)The GNU Hurd is a new
operating system being put together by the GNU group. Debian
GNU/Hurd is going to be one (possibly the first) GNU OS. The
current project is founded on the i386 architecture.
in progress 
kfreebsd-amd64  64-bit PC (amd64)   First officially released with 
Debian 6.0 as a technology preview and the first non-Linux port 
released by Debian. Port of the Debian GNU system to the kernel 
of FreeBSD. Is no longer part of the official release since
Debian 8.
in progress 

kfreebsd-i386   32-bit PC (i386)First officially released with 
Debian 6.0 as a technology preview and the first non-Linux port 
released by Debian. Port of the Debian GNU system to the kernel 
of FreeBSD. Is no longer part of the official release since 
Debian 8.
in progress
netbsd-i386 32-bit PC (i386)A port of the Debian operating 
system, complete with apt, dpkg, and GNU userland, to the NetBSD 
kernel. The port, never released, has been abandoned.
dead
x32 64-bit PC with 32-bit pointers  X32 is an ABI for amd64/x86_64 
CPUs using 32-bit pointers. The idea is to combine the larger 
register set of x86_64 with the smaller memory and cache footprint 
resulting from 32-bit pointers. 
in progress

..until they start putting systemd on the above, all we need to do, is
mirror these archs just like any standard Debian mirror.  A benefit we
will gain, is source code insight into how software is modified to run
on systemd while it remains viably available for e.g. hurd-i386.

..such sneaky systemd things will be visible to these developers in
package source or in compiler source or both.  All we need to do to 
win them over to us, is provide a viable alternative.

..once Debian does try put systemd on any of these archs, nothing is
lost, and we'll have a much better starting point for our Devuan arch
ports than we had for our first archs.


-- 
..med vennlig hilsen = with Kind Regards from Arnt Karlsen
...with a number of polar bear hunters in his ancestry...
  Scenarios always come in sets of three: 
  best case, worst case, and just in case.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan lightdm greeter

[Joachim Fahrner]

Am 2017-07-22 09:09, schrieb Joachim Fahrner:

On new devuan Jessie installs there is a nice looking lightdm greeter
(Devuan theme). How can I install this greeter on old installations?


I found it myown. It is not lightdm, it is slim with theme 
devuan-curve-purpy.


Jochen
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[DNG] Devuan lightdm greeter

[Joachim Fahrner]

On new devuan Jessie installs there is a nice looking lightdm greeter 
(Devuan theme). How can I install this greeter on old installations?


Jochen


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