Re: [DNG] Sorry for the accidental email
On 02/10/19 at 02:53, Steve Litt wrote: > Anyway, could all of you except Dimitris forget you ever saw my email? What email? :-) -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] udisks2 - who uses it? (not a poll)
On 06/09/19 at 15:23, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > In ascii, udisks2 has been devuanized to remove a dependency on > libpam-systemd (and maybe libsystemd0, too.) > > The version of udisks2 in beowulf is very old compared to what's in > buster. Really? I'm on beowulf now, and I have: ii udisks2 2.8.1-4 amd64 D-Bus service to access and manipulate storage devices Same as Debian 10 (buster): https://packages.debian.org/stable/allpackages udisks2 (2.8.1-4) D-Bus service to access and manipulate storage devices Latest version upstream is 2.8.4, released in Jul 22, 2019: https://github.com/storaged-project/udisks/releases 2.8.1 was released in Sep 26, 2018. > The version in buster depends on libpam-systemd OR libpam-elogind. > (Also libsystemd0 OR libelogind0) Since we have libpam-elogind and > libelogind0 in the repos, we don't really need to devuanize udisks2 > anymore. Do we? > > Does anyone use udisks2 who doesn't want libpam-elogind or libelogind0 > with it? I have them both, and I have nothing against them. Bye, Alessandro signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] udisks2 - who uses it? (not a poll)
On 07/09/19 at 01:58, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 07/09/19 at 00:34, fsmithred via Dng wrote: >> On 9/6/19 5:43 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: >>> On 06/09/19 at 15:23, fsmithred via Dng wrote: >>>> In ascii, udisks2 has been devuanized to remove a dependency on >>>> libpam-systemd (and maybe libsystemd0, too.) >>>> >>>> The version of udisks2 in beowulf is very old compared to what's in >>>> buster. >>> Really? I'm on beowulf now, and I have: >>> >>> ii udisks2 2.8.1-4 amd64 D-Bus service to access and >>> manipulate storage devices >>> >>> Same as Debian 10 (buster): >>> >> >> Where did you get it? That version is not in devuan. I'm still running >> the ascii version in my beowulf, because the beowulf/ceres version is >> older. >> > [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ apt-cache policy udisks2 > udisks2: > Installed: 2.8.1-4 > Candidate: 2.8.1-4 > Version table: > *** 2.8.1-4 100 > 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status > 2.1.3-5+devuan2 500 > 500 https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages > 500 http://packages.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages > [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ > > > Greetings, > > > Alessandro Which means the package I have does come from Debian, like most (all?) Devuan packages that did not need to be hacked to take systemd out of it. [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ grep -iR debian /etc/apt/sources.list* [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] udisks2 - who uses it? (not a poll)
On 07/09/19 at 00:34, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > On 9/6/19 5:43 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> On 06/09/19 at 15:23, fsmithred via Dng wrote: >>> In ascii, udisks2 has been devuanized to remove a dependency on >>> libpam-systemd (and maybe libsystemd0, too.) >>> >>> The version of udisks2 in beowulf is very old compared to what's in >>> buster. >> >> Really? I'm on beowulf now, and I have: >> >> ii udisks2 2.8.1-4 amd64 D-Bus service to access and >> manipulate storage devices >> >> Same as Debian 10 (buster): >> > > > Where did you get it? That version is not in devuan. I'm still running > the ascii version in my beowulf, because the beowulf/ceres version is > older. > [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ apt-cache policy udisks2 udisks2: Installed: 2.8.1-4 Candidate: 2.8.1-4 Version table: *** 2.8.1-4 100 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status 2.1.3-5+devuan2 500 500 https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages 500 http://packages.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ Greetings, Alessandro -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] udisks2 - who uses it? (not a poll)
On 06/09/19 at 15:23, fsmithred via Dng wrote: > In ascii, udisks2 has been devuanized to remove a dependency on > libpam-systemd (and maybe libsystemd0, too.) > > The version of udisks2 in beowulf is very old compared to what's in > buster. Really? I'm on beowulf now, and I have: ii udisks2 2.8.1-4 amd64 D-Bus service to access and manipulate storage devices Same as Debian 10 (buster): https://packages.debian.org/stable/allpackages udisks2 (2.8.1-4) D-Bus service to access and manipulate storage devices Latest version upstream is 2.8.4, released in Jul 22, 2019: https://github.com/storaged-project/udisks/releases 2.8.1 was released in Sep 26, 2018. > The version in buster depends on libpam-systemd OR libpam-elogind. > (Also libsystemd0 OR libelogind0) Since we have libpam-elogind and > libelogind0 in the repos, we don't really need to devuanize udisks2 > anymore. Do we? > > Does anyone use udisks2 who doesn't want libpam-elogind or libelogind0 > with it? I have them both, and I have nothing against them. Bye, Alessandro -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] New Nginx documentation for beginners
On 14/06/19 at 03:51, Steve Litt wrote: > Hi all, > > I just put up several nginx documents helpful to those who don't yet > have a complete knowledge of nginx. You can access them all from the > following URL: > > http://www.troubleshooters.com/linux/nginx/ > > Thanks, Thank you, Steve. I appreciate. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Install failure: cannot boot netinst
On 30/05/19 at 04:48, Blair, Charles E III via Dng wrote: > On Wed, 29 May 2019 21:02:13 -0400 > fsmithred via Dng wrote: > >> There should be multiple >> files and directories. > I'm seeing folders like ".disk" "css" "boot" > I think there are 8 files, as opposed to folders. > > I downloaded the netinst.iso file on a machine > running debian, used sha256sum to verify, and > burned using a dd command. You can put an ISO image on a USB flash stick with dd, but you cannot burn a CD or a DVD with it. To do that you'd need wodim. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] missing testing & ceres dists?
On 27/05/19 at 09:29, Dimitris via Dng wrote: [...] > Err:9 https://mirror_url/devuan/merged ceres Release mirror_url is not a valid fully-qualified domain name. Check your repository configuration. > 404 Not Found [IP: xxx.xxx.xxx.xxx 443] > Reading package lists... Done > E: The repository 'https://mirror_url/devuan/merged ceres Release' does > not have a Release file. > N: Updating from such a repository can't be done securely, and is > therefore disabled by default. > N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user > configuration details. > > https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged/dists/ & mirrors only seem to contain : Here is Ceres' stuff on pkgmaster: https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/devuan/dists/ceres/ Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie security maintenance status
On 03/05/19 at 19:31, Henry Jensen via Dng wrote: > Am Fri, 3 May 2019 12:18:40 -0300 > schrieb Gastón via Dng : > >> On Fri, May 03, 2019 at 05:03:56PM +0200, Henry Jensen wrote: >>> >>> It doesn't. >>> >>> "apt search linux-image-3.16.0-8-amd64" yields no results. >>> >>> My sources.list: >>> >>> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main >>> deb http://deb.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main [...] >> repos: >> >> [...] >> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie main contrib non-free >> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-security main contrib >> non-free deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-updates main >> contrib non-free >> deb http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged jessie-backports main >> contrib non-free [...] > > So, you are using auto.mirror.devuan.org. I did use deb.devuan.org, > according to https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list > > "IMPORTANT NOTE: auto.mirror is now deprecated and will be > decomissioned. Please make sure you have the latest devuan-keyring > package with apt-get install devuan-keyring and then point > your /etc/apt/sources.list to deb.devuan.org." > > > Indeed, when I change the sources.list to auto.mirror.devuan.org, I got > updates. > > So I guess, the documentation at > https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list is wrong? > As you can see from the above, you were missing the jessie-updates repository. Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On 11/04/19 at 13:05, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org): > >> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to >> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and >> will now take an indefinite leave from the project. > Enzo, please enjoy your leave and come back soon. Speaking for myself, > you have my full and unreserved confidence. And mine as well. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Way forward
On 11/04/19 at 13:27, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > It was surprising to me to read what Jaromil wrote in one of his > replies regarding the April Fools prank. In short, the statement was > that Devuan takes no responsibility whatever the outcome of its use. Like all OSes do, both free and proprietary. How could you expect Devuan to do differently? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] How to test the backend of simple-netaid
Il 20/03/19 09:16, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp ha scritto:
> Anno domini 2019 Tue, 19 Mar 23:55:36 +0100
> KatolaZ scripsit:
>> On Tue, Mar 19, 2019 at 11:41:16PM +0100, aitor_czr wrote:
>>
>> [cut]
>>
>>> fsmithred wrote the following command in d1g time ago:
>>>
>>> |kill $(ps -e |grep wpa |grep -oP '\d{3,}')
>>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2158 Aitor. |
>>>
>>
>> Maybe something like:
>>
>> $ kill -9 $(pidof wpa_supplicant)
>>
>> is easier to use ;) pidof(8) is still there.
>>
>> My2Cents
>>
>> KatolaZ
>>
> killall -9 wpa_supplicant
>
> ;-)
THOU SHALL NOT KILL -9!
https://unix.stackexchange.com/questions/28572/when-you-try-to-terminate-a-process-for-good-which-option-for-kill-should-you#28578
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Re: [DNG] How can I install dokuwiki? it's not in ascci I think it's in ceres
On 19/03/19 at 13:48, Basati wrote: > El martes, 19 de marzo de 2019 13:36:55 (CET) Basati escribió: > > The local file have this > > root@basatu:/etc/dokuwiki# ls -all local.php > -rw-r--r-- 1 root root 250 mar 19 13:11 local.php > > The group isn't bad? > > Shouldn't it be www-data ? > > with write permissions? I don't think so, even though I'm not a webmaster. Everything under /etc must be considered system default settings, and userland processes should never be able to write in this directory. Expecially processes that accept TCP/IP connections. Everything a PHP site should need and be concerned in ought to be placed in /var or /srv, sometimes in /home. > Configuration Manager section > > He says to me: "The settings file can not be updated, if this is > unintentional, ensure the local settings file name and permissions are > correct." > > does it refer to local.php? I don't think so, at least not the one in /etc. But again, I'm not a webmaster, I speak from a purely sysadmin point of view. > Greetings > Basati Good luck! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
On 09/03/19 at 14:04, al3xu5 / dotcommon wrote: > >> my id is 0x007f0101 >> >> [...] >> >> my id is 0x007f0101 >> >> [...] >> >> my id is 0x007f0101 >> > using the `hostid` command, I have (Devuan ASCII): > > $ hostid > 007f0101 > > which is the same value!!! > > I wonder... is it a "fixed" id for all Devuan installation as it seems to be? > > And if it is so,is it correct that it is? How intriguing! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
On 09/03/19 at 12:46, marc wrote:
>>> So you are correct that gethostid has been around for a while,
>>> but this call returns a 32bit number, typically the IP.
>> ?? No, it returns a value that's unique to the local machine even if it
>> was not configured on any network.?? Plus, the IP can change, but the
>> hostid is supposed to be static.?? The Unix hostid was developed in order
>> to uniquely identify a machine regardless of where in the Internet it
>> is.?? What you described is the gethostbyname syscall.
> Maybe your system is different to mine, but try compiling the below
> and find out for yourself:
>
> #include
> #include
>
> int main()
> {
> int id;
>
> id = gethostid();
>
> printf("my id is 0x%08x\n", id);
>
> return 0;
> }
my id is 0x007f0101
[root@wkstn05 ~]# ifdown eth0
Killed old client process
Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.4.1
Copyright 2004-2018 Internet Systems Consortium.
All rights reserved.
For info, please visit https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/
Listening on LPF/eth0/00:2e:d5:f6:62:4b
Sending on LPF/eth0/00:2e:d5:f6:62:4b
Sending on Socket/fallback
DHCPRELEASE of 192.168.0.6 on eth0 to 192.168.0.200 port 67
invoke-rc.d: policy-rc.d denied execution of reload.
[root@wkstn05 ~]#
my id is 0x007f0101
[root@wkstn05 ~]# ifup wlan1
Internet Systems Consortium DHCP Client 4.4.1
Copyright 2004-2018 Internet Systems Consortium.
All rights reserved.
For info, please visit https://www.isc.org/software/dhcp/
Listening on LPF/wlan1/1a:66:81d9:fc:30
Sending on LPF/wlan1/1a:66:81d9:fc:30
Sending on Socket/fallback
Created duid "\000\001\000\001$\036kp\021\322\366\231\345M".
DHCPDISCOVER on wlan1 to 255.255.255.255 port 67 interval 4
DHCPOFFER of 192.168.48.101 from 192.168.48.158
DHCPREQUEST for 192.168.48.101 on wlan1 to 255.255.255.255 port 67
DHCPACK of 192.168.48.101 from 192.168.48.158
invoke-rc.d: policy-rc.d denied execution of reload.
bound to 192.168.48.101 -- renewal in 1626 seconds.
invoke-rc.d: policy-rc.d denied execution of alarm.
[root@wkstn05 ~]#
my id is 0x007f0101
So what? Can't you read man gethostid(3)?
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Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
Il 09/03/19 11:16, marc ha scritto: >> Mark, I think you are probably shooting the wrong bird here. Host ids >> have been around for the best part of the last 40 years in the unix >> world. And I am not talking about proprietary unix. The syscalls >> gethostid/sethostid were introduced in 4.2BSD (ca. 1983), at Berkeley, >> and are supposed to support unique host ids across all the unix >> installations. The gethostid syscall was even standardised in POSIX. > So you are correct that gethostid has been around for a while, > but this call returns a 32bit number, typically the IP. No, it returns a value that's unique to the local machine even if it was not configured on any network. Plus, the IP can change, but the hostid is supposed to be static. The Unix hostid was developed in order to uniquely identify a machine regardless of where in the Internet it is. What you described is the gethostbyname syscall. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
Il 09/03/19 09:53, Didier Kryn ha scritto: > Le 09/03/2019 à 00:28, Arnt Karlsen a écrit : >> I might go: " * * * * * root \ >> fortune & |md5sum |cut -d" " -f-1 >/etc/machine-id |tee \ >> >/dev/null 2>&1 " to keep this lightweight in my end and not >> in the other end. :o) > > Arnt, Could you be less cryptic please? > > I found fortune in package 9base. The executable is in package fortune-mod, then there are separate packages that install extensions to it's base sentences database. In Beowulf I can find: fortunes fortunes-bofh-excuses fortunes-fr fortunes-it fortunes-it-off fortunes-mario fortunes-min fortunes-off > The idea of hashing a random aphorism is pleasant, but fortune always > displays "Misfortune!" on every invocation, which probably means it > misses a list of aphorisms not part of the package. Yes, you must install a sentences DB: [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ fortune What color is a chameleon on a mirror? [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ fortune Things are more like they used to be than they are now. [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ fortune O tempo é um excelente professor, mas ,infelizmente, mata todos os seus alunos. -- Hector Berlioz [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ fortune Avevo un fortune l'altro giorno ma l'ho scordato... [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ However, fortune cookie's DB is a poor source of entropy and it shouldn't be relied upon to generate secure passwords or encryption keys. It's allright to generate daily pseudo-random machine ids, though. > Also I don't understand what you mean by " * * * * * root " Man crontab(5) explaines them: Commands are executed by cron(8) when the minute, hour, and month of year fields match the current time, and when at least one of the two day fields (day of month, or day of week) match the current time (see ``Note'' below). cron(8) examines cron entries once every minute. The time and date fields are: field allowed values - -- minute 0-59 hour 0-23 day of month 1-31 month 1-12 (or names, see below) day of week 0-7 (0 or 7 is Sun, or use names) A field may be an asterisk (*), which always stands for ``first-last''. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /var/lib/dbus/machine-id -- new dbus version
On 08/03/19 at 23:58, KatolaZ wrote: > Dear D1rs, > > following the discussion about /var/lib/dbus/machine-id, you find a > new version of dbus in unstable and beowulf. The new version is > 1.12.12-1+devuan2, and it should hit pkgmaster in the next 10 minutes. > > I have added a variable "IDTYPE" in /etc/default/dbus which is set by > default to "RANDOM". This will result in /var/lib/dbus/machine-id > being re-generated at boot time (and only at boot time). If IDTYPE is > set to anything else, /var/lib/dbus/machine-id is preserved across > subsequent boots. In this way, the sysadmin can choose to have the > dbus machine-id persist across boots, if they like, but the default > beaviour will be to have it re-generated at each boot. > > Please test it out and report any issue. There is an open bug (#304) > on bugs.devuan.org. Use that one for comments/updates please. Goor. My /var/lib/dbus/machine-id dates Sept., I'll report shall it not change next reboot. > Regarding /etc/machine-id: it looks like it is installed only by > systemd, so any devuan installation which originally was a Debian > might probably have it. My guess is that it should be possible to > remove it altogether. If any application wants it (somebody mentioned > chromium) you could replace it with a symlink to > /var/lib/dbus/machine-id. > > I guess replacing /etc/machine-id every 10 minutes to avoid chromium > tracking you is not particularly smart: I am pretty sure chromium > would just read it when it starts, and then keep it in RAM, so you > might need to restart chromium every 10 minutes as well. Plus, I would not make it evident to programs that my machine-id value is bogus. I'd let them believe it's a good one across the session. Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
On 09/03/19 at 00:28, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Fri, 8 Mar 2019 22:56:36 +0100, Alessandro wrote in message > <93850f1a-3feb-adc9-1cd0-8ca8736fc...@linux.com>: > >> On 08/03/19 at 18:38, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >>> ..my /etc/cron.d/machine-id: >>> PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin >>> >>> # ..a new /etc/machine-id every minute... ;o) >>> * * * * * root date |md5sum |cut -d" " -f-1 >/etc/machine-id |tee >>> >/dev/null 2>&1 >> >> What is tee doing there? > ..allows logging the generated IDs with e.g. > " |tee >>/var/log/machine-IDs ", some people > might need to do that. I see. I would leave logging to it's specific command, though: echo $RANDOM | md5sum | cut -c 1-32 > /etc/machine-id && logger -p local1.info '/etc/machine randomly regenerated' || logger -p local1.err 'Random regeneration of /etc/machine failed' But this is just a matter of personal choice. > ..both valid improvements, me, I might go: " * * * * * root \ > fortune & |md5sum |cut -d" " -f-1 >/etc/machine-id |tee \ > >/dev/null 2>&1 " to keep this lightweight in my end and not > in the other end. :o) The use of fortune as a RNG is telling of the number of gray hair you must have! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id
On 08/03/19 at 18:38, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > > ..my /etc/cron.d/machine-id: > PATH=/bin:/usr/bin:/sbin:/usr/sbin > > # ..a new /etc/machine-id every minute... ;o) > * * * * * root date |md5sum |cut -d" " -f-1 >/etc/machine-id |tee > >/dev/null 2>&1 What is tee doing there? It duplicates it's standard input to each of the files it sees as parameters, and it has none. Plus, it emits it's standard input to it's standard output, which gets discarded. What is the purpose of doing this? I'd just do this instead: echo $RANDOM | md5sum | cut -c 1-32 > /etc/machine-id or maybe: dd count=1 if=/dev/urandom 2> /dev/null | md5sum | cut -c 1-32 > /etc/machine-id -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 01:34, Rick Moen wrote: > 'netstat -nalp' is hard-wired into my memory, whereas I have to look up > the 'ss' equivalent, every time. You're lucky, as the ss equivalent of netstat -nalp is ss -nalp! -n, --numeric Do not try to resolve service names. -a, --all Display both listening and non-listening -l, --listening Display only listening sockets (useless together with -a) -p, --processes Show process using socket. Just like the same options for the netstat command. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 16:30, Bot Fap wrote: > > > On Fri, 8 Mar 2019, 00:10 Alessandro Selli, <mailto:alessandrose...@linux.com>> wrote: > > On 08/03/19 at 00:50, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > > > It's intriguing to see you get so emotional about this. > > > My objections are technically motivated and documented. > > Yours are neither > > > You should re-read your posts. You come across as very emotional and > with a superiority complex about another user using a tool that you > choose not to use. I stated facts: 1) ifconfig and iwconfig are considered obsolete, deprecated and pending removal by all major distributions, to the point some removed them 5 years ago and many no longer install them by default. 2) They were substituted by the commands ip and iw, that have been long made not just available, but installed as the reference network configuration tools by all major ditributions. 3) the old commands suffer from many limitations and are no longer been extended to incorporate the latest (and even not so "latest") networking features the kernel supports. These are facts, not opinions or emotions. > > You then wrongly tell the other user that tool is deprecated when it > very much is not, certainty in the embedded world, if not so much the > desktop They are, and I provided with links to demonstrate it. No one of those who state the opposite managed to show anything to support their claims to the opposite. > > > > Just the other week I opted for using ifconfig because I > couldn't work > > out the single command for confguring a tap with an IP address, and > > bring it up. With ip, I seemed to need 3 commands, so at that time I > > liked ifconfig better. > > > Your own failures at using modern tools and your personal > preferences > are not technically compelling reasons to consider outdated and > deprecated commands anything different than what they are. > > > Choosing to use a different tool because of familiarity is not a > failure it's a choice. Chosing to use a deprecated and obolete tool that lacks many feature that have been supported by the kernel for 15+ years for no other reason than "I'm used at using them" is stupid. > There you go again being abusive to people for making different > choices than you I have nothing to say against other people's choice. I have a lot to say about technical reasons those commanda are deprecated and obsolete and no longer worked on to make them current. > > > > It's certainly not obsolete yet. > > > They surely are, and Rick and myself provided with links to document > this and a list of shortcomings that plague those commands. You > failed > at documenting anything technical to prop up your personal > convictions. > > > If over 1 billion deployments in the last 12 months is obsolete then > you clearly have a very different definition of obsolete to the rest > of the world. Again you are being abusive to try and force your point > of view (not facts) facts are that not one of the major distributions depends on those commands. They are no longer required, they are still available just for the fun of the dinosaurs who insist in using deprecated and obsolete tools for no technical advantage. > > > > Perhaps there is > > a single ip command, and perhaps I can learn it, but that still > wouldn't > > make ifconfig obsolete. > > Again, your failure/unwillingness at learning modern tools does not > make them bad and does not make deprecated and obsolete commands > modern > and up to date. > > > > Though, I realise I should let you call it/them "deprecated"; > > > It's not just me, it's many thousand people who do. > > Any many thousands more completely disagree with you. Stop confusing > your opinions with facts Please provide with pointers to technical papers documenting that ifconfig and iwconfig can do everything that ip and iw do. Otherwise just shut up. > > > > it may > > well be how you think of them even if I don't do that. > > > It's not just that I think they are. They are considered to be that > way by an overwhelming majority of Linux developers and sysadmins. > > Not true in the slightest. Devs maybe, sysadmins absolutely not Sysadmins do, too. Because they cannot do many things that their job requires them to do with the old tools. > > > > The word is just > > an expression of an opinion about these programs and not an > attribute of > > them. > > > > Ralph.
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 05:26, terryc wrote: > On Thu, 7 Mar 2019 22:05:39 +0100 > Alessandro Selli wrote: > >> On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: >>> Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: >>>> Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in >>>> place of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and >>>> iwconfig: >>> The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the >>> programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. >> >> Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major >> distributions, some already removed them years ago, > Should I not mention systemd. It's off-topic in tis context. At least for now. > I'm sure it is a drop in replacement in > that sentence above. Right now ip and iw are. >> You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. > Shrug, no such thing as facts. Just common majority accepted > explanations for "reality'. And of course you are one of the very few chosen ones who could grasp the only real truth, right? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 01:19, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > > Allesandro, my friend, over many years on the Internet, I've found that > certain discussions are best concluded with amicable production of the > set of facts that all present (within reason; and my other friend Ralph > Ronnquist easily qualifies) can agree upon, and then amicably agreeing > to disagree on the rest. > > I'd suggest this is one of those. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 01:09, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 10:56 am: >> Please tell us. When you need to do firewalling, what do you use and why? >> 1) ipfwadm >> 2) ipchains >> 3) iptables > I assume you ask me specifically. No, I'm asking you generically. > In most hypotheticals I care to > imagine, I would use iptables, because I believe I know it well enough > to make it do what I would want it to do. Can't you come up with any technical reason as to why *all* firewalling today in Linux is done with iptables (a little with nftables) and none with ipchains and ipfwadm anymore? > Of course, if it'd be for a > Mac powerbook, I would have to sob for at least a week, and then use pf, > probably. Irrelevant remark. That's not Linux. > You have a favourite, too? I favour technically updated, advanced, modern, maintained, versatile, powerful and easy to use tools. In this case, it's iptables. And ip and iw for the same reasons, like all distro maintainers and almost all Linux networking developers do. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 08/03/19 at 00:50, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > It's intriguing to see you get so emotional about this. My objections are technically motivated and documented. Yours are neither. > Just the other week I opted for using ifconfig because I couldn't work > out the single command for confguring a tap with an IP address, and > bring it up. With ip, I seemed to need 3 commands, so at that time I > liked ifconfig better. Your own failures at using modern tools and your personal preferences are not technically compelling reasons to consider outdated and deprecated commands anything different than what they are. > It's certainly not obsolete yet. They surely are, and Rick and myself provided with links to document this and a list of shortcomings that plague those commands. You failed at documenting anything technical to prop up your personal convictions. > Perhaps there is > a single ip command, and perhaps I can learn it, but that still wouldn't > make ifconfig obsolete. Again, your failure/unwillingness at learning modern tools does not make them bad and does not make deprecated and obsolete commands modern and up to date. > Though, I realise I should let you call it/them "deprecated"; It's not just me, it's many thousand people who do. > it may > well be how you think of them even if I don't do that. It's not just that I think they are. They are considered to be that way by an overwhelming majority of Linux developers and sysadmins. > The word is just > an expression of an opinion about these programs and not an attribute of > them. > > Ralph. Still nothing technical about how those commands could be considered anything different than obsolete and deprecated. You only have your personal convictions to show. Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 23:26, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 9:04 am: >> I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and >> deprecated. > > Yes. And those terms are badly chosen, because they are neither. Please tell us. When you need to do firewalling, what do you use and why? 1) ipfwadm 2) ipchains 3) iptables -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 23:26, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 9:04 am: >> I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and >> deprecated. > > Yes. And those terms are badly chosen, because they are neither. They are both, and I explained why they are listing some of the technically compelling reasons they are considered obsolete and deprecated by an overwhelming majority of people who maintain distributions. >>> They work well without >>> needing constant development; security patches are good. >> They are limited, they suffer shortcomings, they are not getting new >> code to keep in pace with modern networking evolution. ifconfig does >> not handle well multiple ip's to the same interface, is limited to >> 32-bit counters when the kernel has long been using 64 bit counters, >> does not support/detect the latest queue disciplines, they are stuck to >> old networking APIs that are ill suited to handle tunneling, VLAN, >> traffic shaping, control and security extensions and many features that >> are key to such things as Software Defined Networking. > > Wanting a program to do things is doesn't is plain stupid. ip and iw do the "things" (what things?) they were developed to do. It's ifconfig and iwconfig which suffer from limitations and shotcomings. >> They lack support for advanced features that have been present in the >> kernel for many years because nobody bothered to update them. New >> development all goes into ip and iw. > > see above. I see you're still stubbornly ignoring facts and fail to explain why. >> Now, other than emotional, personal and irrational reasons, what >> technical motives push you to still use those old, obsolete, limited and >> deprecated tools when you've been having available newer ones that are >> much superior and are just as easy to use? > > I believe Technical matters are not a matter of belief. > I objected to our choice of words, You "believe" things you did? Don't you even know why yourself did and said things? > and not your reasons for > insisting on using those words, I have technically proven and linguistically sound reasons to call those commands what they are, that is obsolete and deprecated, like an overwhelming majority of technically minded people do. > or your reasons for wanting these > programs to not be used. I never tried to impose my will on anybody else. You're doing a straw-man attack on me. > Like many people, you are free to use whichever > programs you may want, and you are free to think that your choice of > programs for your purposes is the One And True choice, even when it > isn't. There is no reason for you to go emotional about it. You accused me of intentions I never had, and are still failing at providing with technical reasons why obsolete, nearly unmaintained, universally deprecated and way outdated commands are to still be used today when they do not offer any advantage over the current, maintained, universally available and much more versatile and powerful and still easy to use commands that have been available for decades. > The fact remains that ifconfig and iwconfig are neither deprecated nor > obsolete. They both are, and they've been so for many years. Major distributions started dropping them from 2014, if not earlier. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 22:18, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 8:05 am: >> On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: >>> Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: >>>> Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place >>>> of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: >>> The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the >>> programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. >> >> Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major >> distributions, some already removed them years ago, and they receive >> little development, mostly just security patches. > > ifconfig and iwconfig are useful programs. I did not write they are useless. I wrote that they are obsolete and deprecated. > They work well without > needing constant development; security patches are good. They are limited, they suffer shortcomings, they are not getting new code to keep in pace with modern networking evolution. ifconfig does not handle well multiple ip's to the same interface, is limited to 32-bit counters when the kernel has long been using 64 bit counters, does not support/detect the latest queue disciplines, they are stuck to old networking APIs that are ill suited to handle tunneling, VLAN, traffic shaping, control and security extensions and many features that are key to such things as Software Defined Networking. >>> You may well have your >>> reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by >>> ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be >>> neither obsolete nor deprecated. >> >> They are both, and I provided with pointers to explain why they are. >> >> You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. > > "facts" ?? > > It is a fact that ifconfig and iwconfig are useful programs. Again, I did not write they are useless. They still are useful if you only you do basic networking stuff (though they are mot more useful than the new tools at that). But they lack support for the most modern and advanced features of the Linux kernel networking stack. > They work > well without needing constant development; They lack support for advanced features that have been present in the kernel for many years because nobody bothered to update them. New development all goes into ip and iw. > security patches are good. That's the reason they have not yet been dropped by many distributions, even though all major ones no longer depend on them for anything critical, like boot time networking configuration (Debian took them away from sysv init scripts before they switched to systemd). These are facts. Now, other than emotional, personal and irrational reasons, what technical motives push you to still use those old, obsolete, limited and deprecated tools when you've been having available newer ones that are much superior and are just as easy to use? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 21:22, Ralph Ronnquist via Dng wrote: > Alessandro Selli wrote on 8/3/19 6:49 am: >> Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place >> of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: > The terms "obsolete" and "deprecated" are badly chosen, since the > programs ifconfig and iwconfig are neither. Yes, they are. They are pending removal from several (all?) major distributions, some already removed them years ago, and they receive little development, mostly just security patches. > You may well have your > reasons to like other programs to achieve the functions offered by > ifconfig and iwconfig, but that does not make ifconfig and iwconfig be > neither obsolete nor deprecated. They are both, and I provided with pointers to explain why they are. You are of course free to ignore facts. We do live in a free society. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] simple-netaid-backend debugged.
On 07/03/19 at 08:38, Edward Bartolo via Dng wrote: > It uses instead ifconfig, iwconfig, wpa_supplicant and > dhclient. Next improvement would be using current commands (ip and iw) in place of the obsolete and deprecated ones, i.e. ifconfig and iwconfig: https://serverfault.com/questions/458628/should-i-quit-using-ifconfig https://access.redhat.com/solutions/1194553 iwconfig was developed by Jean Tourrilhes at HP, and it uses Linux Wireless Extensions from the same author, which have been log deprecated: http://linuxwireless.sipsolutions.net/en/developers/Documentation/Wireless-Extensions/#Is_WE_being_further_developed_.3F -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] gpt boot on bios machine
On Sat, 2 Mar 2019 at 16:06:51 -0500 Hendrik Boom wrote: > Currently booting from a 750G BIOS-partitioned disk. > Trying to enable booting from the 4.7T drive, which is GPT > partitioned. > > With grub-install I get errors: > > april:/farhome/hendrik# grub-install /dev/sda > Installing for i386-pc platform. > grub-install: warning: this GPT partition label contains no BIOS Boot > Partition; embedding won't be possible. grub-install: error: > embedding is not possible, but this is required for RAID and LVM > install. april:/farhome/hendrik# > > Evidently there is some kind of incompatibility here. > > What is going on? What can I to do other than continuing to boot > from small BIOS disks? See if this helps you: https://askubuntu.com/questions/671809/grub-install-this-gpt-partition-label-contains-no-bios-boot-partition In short: you need to have a "BIOS boot partition" of any size to make grub-install happy. Alessandro ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade
On 16/02/19 at 11:26, chillfan--- via Dng wrote: > And of course I don't need nft Yes, you do. For some reason you don't *want* it, but that's a different matter. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] xdm broken?
On 15/02/19 at 21:39, Ozi Traveller via Dng wrote: > Hi > > I have installed xdm, and it starts when I boot up, but doesn't start > xorg when I login. Please check that Xorg is installed. You should have the executable /usr/bin/Xorg in place installed by package xserver-xorg-core. Then you need a desktop environment/Window Manger that xdm can hande. wdm, which is similar to xdm, has these defined in /etc/X11/wdm/wdm.wmlist: DisplayManager*wdmWm: default:openbox:openbox-session:startxfce4:xfce4-session:xfwm4 > Has anyone got this working? I would be interested to know how if > anyone has. > > ozi > > VirtualBox_test-64_15_02_2019_07_11_44.png Please don't include a picture when a copy-and-paste would suffice. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] [SOLVED] Error building vdev in devuan beowulf
On 15/02/19 at 06:56, aitor_czr wrote: > > Sorry for the typing and size changes throughout some of my emails, it > happens to me using thunderbird. I'll switch to clawsmail :) > I did use clawsmail for some time. I had to stop because many of it's plugins are hopelessly oudated. Among them the gpg one, that still only supports gpg version 1. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] unatternded upgrades by default in Debian
On 12/02/19 at 14:32, Hendrik Boom wrote: > I just found the following comment on Soylent News: > > > https://soylentnews.org/comments.pl?noupdate=1=30051=1=799766#commentwrap > > > >> As of Debian 9 (Stretch) both the unattended-upgrades and >> apt-listchanges packages are installed by default and upgrades are >> enabled with the GNOME desktop. Rudimentary configuration is >> accessible via the "Software & Updates" application >> (software-properties-gtk). >> it's a Debian thing that depend on systemd to start at reboot > > Sounds like something we don't want. I agree. All I need to automate updates is a cron job -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] OpenSSH: delay on beowulf
On 10/02/19 at 11:26, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > There's nothing in the logs. It just takes verry long to start. Run it in verbose/debug mode. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Installing Steam on Devuan
On 10/02/19 at 01:20, hal wrote: > Are there i386 devuan packages available? No, as it's proprietary software: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_(software) > I'm trying to get the Steam client running[1] on a recent Ascii > upgrade. I suppose I could pull in some Debian ones if not. > You can get it here: https://store.steampowered.com/about/ -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Beowulf: eudev does not start at boot, making Xorg unusable
On 09/02/19 at 00:13, Gonzalo Pérez de Olaguer Córdoba wrote: > Hi Alessandro. > > El Fri, 8 Feb 2019 21:53:44 +0100 > Alessandro Selli escribió: > >> This afternoon I happened to be surprised I could not use my >> laptop's GUI because the screen was unresponsive to both keyboard and >> mouse. The laptop was not frozen though, a clock in the DM display was >> running. >> >> Logging-in from another PC [...] > In common situations there is no need to login from another PC. > You can press Ctrl-Alt-F1 (handled by the kernel, not by the X system) > to get a text console (Alt-F7 to go back to the graphics). Which side of: "the screen was unresponsive to both keyboard and mouse" was not clear? Not even Caps Lock, Num Lock or Scroll Lock leds were functioning! The only way was logging in from another machine. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Beowulf: eudev does not start at boot, making Xorg unusable
On 09/02/19 at 00:08, KatolaZ wrote: > On Sat, Feb 09, 2019 at 12:38:06AM +0200, Dimitris via Dng wrote: >> hey, >> >> On 2/8/19 10:53 PM, Alessandro Selli wrote: >>> � I shut down the DM, started eudev manually and I could recover the GUI. >>> >> it was also reported in the forum today : >> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2653 >> and a bug report yesterday : >> https://bugs.devuan.org//cgi/bugreport.cgi?bug=290 >> > I know, but any additional information would be useful (since I am > currently unable to reproduce the issue). E.g.: > > - DE XCFE with wdm as DM > - session manager xfce4-session > - login manager I take it's elogind > - init system sysvinit-core + openrc > - kernel version Happens both with the stock 4.19.0-1-amd64 one and a custom 4.20.5 one. > - sysvinit version 2.93-7+devuan1 -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Beowulf: eudev does not start at boot, making Xorg unusable
grep eudev /var/log/messages returned nothing, on /var/log/syslog I only got a few instances of: Feb 8 20:17:13 wkstn05 vmunix: [ 2.508284] udevd[213]: starting eudev-3.2.2 On 08/02/19 at 23:34, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Feb 08, 2019 at 09:53:44PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> Hello, >> >> This afternoon I happened to be surprised I could not use my >> laptop's GUI because the screen was unresponsive to both keyboard and >> mouse. The laptop was not frozen though, a clock in the DM display was >> running. >> >> Logging-in from another PC I found out Xorg's log lacked any line >> about keyboard and mouse configuration. This was due to the fact eudev >> failed to start at boot. >> >> I shut down the DM, started eudev manually and I could recover the GUI. >> >> > Hi, > > any logs about eudev activity or errors would be more than > welcome. Thanks > > KatolaZ > > P.S.: I am on beowulf and using the same version of eudev, and have no > problems with X. There must be something interacting with the new > version of eudev. > > > _______ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] Beowulf: eudev does not start at boot, making Xorg unusable
Hello, This afternoon I happened to be surprised I could not use my laptop's GUI because the screen was unresponsive to both keyboard and mouse. The laptop was not frozen though, a clock in the DM display was running. Logging-in from another PC I found out Xorg's log lacked any line about keyboard and mouse configuration. This was due to the fact eudev failed to start at boot. I shut down the DM, started eudev manually and I could recover the GUI. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Creating directory in /var/run on bootup
On 05/02/19 at 11:34, k...@aspodata.se wrote: > Tom: > ... >> What is the recommended alternative way to create a sub-directory of >> /var/run on bootup for non-daemon software? > Don't know about "recommended", but you can > > . prepend your cron script like (or have a wrapper): > > if [ ! -d / ]; then mkdir -p /var/run/barman; fi > I think you meant to write: if [ ! -d /var/run/barman ]; then mkdir -p /var/run/barman; fi [...] > . check which init.d script which sets up /var/run and which starts > cron, and add a script that starts somewhere between thoose two that > sets up /var/run/barman I would prefer such a solution, as it would take away the check for the presence of /var/run/barman every darn minute. /etc/rc.local would be a place I'd think to put the directory creation, too, as it's unlikely that a minute passes between cron startup and it's execution. But putting an ad hoc script is the best thing. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] *** GMX Spamverdacht *** SOLVED Re: Upgraded to Beowulf, GIMP is broken
On 03/02/19 at 15:48, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Anno domini 2019 Sun, 3 Feb 15:44:55 +0100 > Alessandro Selli scripsit: >> On 03/02/19 at 15:28, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> [...] >> Next issue, firefox has lost his voice. But only when run from XFCE's >> panel, not when run as apulse firefox from the command line. > Yep, no pulsaudio --> no sound in firefox exept you run it with "apulse > firefox". XFCE's panel is, like it was in ascii, running apulse firefox, but it no longer works. It only works from the command line in beowulf. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] SOLVED Re: Upgraded to Beowulf, GIMP is broken
On 03/02/19 at 15:28, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 03/02/19 at 15:09, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> On 03/02/19 at 14:59, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >>> Anno domini 2019 Sun, 3 Feb 14:53:30 +0100 >>> Alessandro Selli scripsit: >>>> On 02/02/19 at 21:43, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: >>>> [...] >>>> I took away the deb-multimedia repository *before* the upgrade, left >>>> the Videolan one and DVD playing works fine. >>>> >>>> Gimp does not, however: >>>> >>>> gimp: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0: >>>> undefined symbol: babl_format_with_space >>>> >>>> dpkg-query --search /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 >>>> libgegl-0.4-0:amd64: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 >>>> >>>> apt-cache policy libgegl-0.4-0 >>>> libgegl-0.4-0: >>>> Installed: 0.4.12-2 >>>> Candidate: 0.4.12-2 >>>> Version table: >>>> *** 0.4.12-2 500 >>>> 500 https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages >>>> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status >>> I had to uninstall gimp, purge all packages from dmo, purge all left behind >>> configs and then reinstall gimp. >> The only deb-multimedia package left is deb-multimedia-keyring, which >> adds the file /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/deb-multimedia-keyring.gpg to the >> filesystem. >> >> I'll try purging gimp and libgegl-0.4-0, reinstall them and see if >> that's enough. > > No luck. The issue affect xsane too. > > I purged gimp, xsane and libgegl-0.4-0, reinstalled gimp xsane and > still get the same error. > > I have no packages from deb-multimedia or backports or experimental, > which were are removed before the upgrade. All right, this is the right way to proceed: apt-get purge gimp libgegl\* libgimp2.0 libbabl\* xsane && apt-get clean && apt-get -y install gimp xsane Now both xsane and gimp work. Next issue, firefox has lost his voice. But only when run from XFCE's panel, not when run as apulse firefox from the command line. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgraded to Beowulf, GIMP is broken
On 03/02/19 at 15:09, Alessandro Selli wrote: > On 03/02/19 at 14:59, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >> Anno domini 2019 Sun, 3 Feb 14:53:30 +0100 >> Alessandro Selli scripsit: >>> On 02/02/19 at 21:43, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: >>> [...] >>> I took away the deb-multimedia repository *before* the upgrade, left >>> the Videolan one and DVD playing works fine. >>> >>> Gimp does not, however: >>> >>> gimp: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0: >>> undefined symbol: babl_format_with_space >>> >>> dpkg-query --search /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 >>> libgegl-0.4-0:amd64: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 >>> >>> apt-cache policy libgegl-0.4-0 >>> libgegl-0.4-0: >>> Installed: 0.4.12-2 >>> Candidate: 0.4.12-2 >>> Version table: >>> *** 0.4.12-2 500 >>> 500 https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages >>> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status >> I had to uninstall gimp, purge all packages from dmo, purge all left behind >> configs and then reinstall gimp. > > The only deb-multimedia package left is deb-multimedia-keyring, which > adds the file /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/deb-multimedia-keyring.gpg to the > filesystem. > > I'll try purging gimp and libgegl-0.4-0, reinstall them and see if > that's enough. No luck. The issue affect xsane too. I purged gimp, xsane and libgegl-0.4-0, reinstalled gimp xsane and still get the same error. I have no packages from deb-multimedia or backports or experimental, which were are removed before the upgrade. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] *** GMX Spamverdacht *** Re: Upgraded to Beowulf, GIMP is broken
On 03/02/19 at 14:59, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Anno domini 2019 Sun, 3 Feb 14:53:30 +0100 > Alessandro Selli scripsit: >> On 02/02/19 at 21:43, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: >> [...] >> I took away the deb-multimedia repository *before* the upgrade, left >> the Videolan one and DVD playing works fine. >> >> Gimp does not, however: >> >> gimp: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0: >> undefined symbol: babl_format_with_space >> >> dpkg-query --search /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 >> libgegl-0.4-0:amd64: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 >> >> apt-cache policy libgegl-0.4-0 >> libgegl-0.4-0: >> Installed: 0.4.12-2 >> Candidate: 0.4.12-2 >> Version table: >> *** 0.4.12-2 500 >> 500 https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages >> 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status > I had to uninstall gimp, purge all packages from dmo, purge all left behind > configs and then reinstall gimp. The only deb-multimedia package left is deb-multimedia-keyring, which adds the file /etc/apt/trusted.gpg.d/deb-multimedia-keyring.gpg to the filesystem. I'll try purging gimp and libgegl-0.4-0, reinstall them and see if that's enough. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgraded to Beowulf, GIMP is broken
On 02/02/19 at 21:43, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: > KatolaZ [02.02.2019 20:27]: > >> On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 06:20:50PM +0100, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: >>> I have tried to upgrade two of my machines from ASCII to Beowulf. It >>> needed some fiddling with "apt --fix-broken install", trying the >>> dist-upgrade a couple of times and removing a couple of things. But it >>> boots and works ok now. Same thing over here: apt-get -y dist-upgrade [...] Preparing to unpack .../48-ncurses-bin_6.1+20181013-1_amd64.deb ... Unpacking ncurses-bin (6.1+20181013-1) over (6.0+20161126-1+deb9u2) ... Errors were encountered while processing: /tmp/apt-dpkg-install-ulAI7W/13-gstreamer1.0-plugins-base_1.14.4-1_amd64.deb E: Sub-process /usr/bin/dpkg returned an error code (1) I could go ahead with the upgrade after I purged the package: libgstreamer-plugins-bad1.0-0 and a number of other ones that depended on it. Other errors I saw were successfully taken care of by apt-get. Oddly, dhclient failed configuring the ethernet connection after the reboot, but this was solved rebooting the DSL router, so it must be not Beowul's fault. [alessandro@wkstn05 ~]$ lsb_release -drc Description: Devuan GNU/Linux beowulf/ceres Release: 10 Codename: n/a Release 10? You too like big numbers? ☺ >>> With the exeption of GIMP. That one gives the following error: >>> >>> $ gimp >>> gimp: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0: >>> undefined symbol: babl_format_with_space I took away the deb-multimedia repository *before* the upgrade, left the Videolan one and DVD playing works fine. Gimp does not, however: gimp: symbol lookup error: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0: undefined symbol: babl_format_with_space dpkg-query --search /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 libgegl-0.4-0:amd64: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgegl-0.4.so.0.412.0 apt-cache policy libgegl-0.4-0 libgegl-0.4-0: Installed: 0.4.12-2 Candidate: 0.4.12-2 Version table: *** 0.4.12-2 500 500 https://pkgmaster.devuan.org/merged beowulf/main amd64 Packages 100 /var/lib/dpkg/status -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Upgraded to Beowulf, GIMP is broken
On 02/02/19 at 23:52, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Anno domini 2019 Sat, 2 Feb 23:46:42 +0100 > KatolaZ scripsit: >> On Sat, Feb 02, 2019 at 09:43:26PM +0100, Harald Arnesen via Dng wrote: >> >> [cut] >> >>> No, one is a Lenovo ThinkPad T510i, the other a ThinkStation something >>> (i'm away from that one now). >>> >>> One thing that may be an issue is that I had the Debian multimedia >>> repository active when I ran ASCII. >> You don't need debian multimedia since wheezy. Just disable them, and >> then apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade. >> >> My2Cents >> >> KatolaZ >> >> P.S.: I didn't have any problem on an x220, which hardware-wise is >> indeed very similar to the t510. >> > Hm ... how can you play DVDs without libdvdcss2 ? Have I missed some > important development in the last years? You can get libdvdcss2 also from the Videolan repository, they have just that package AFAICT: deb https://download.videolan.org/pub/debian/stable/ / > Nik -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 02/02/19 at 03:41, Steve Litt wrote: > Of course, with cars, this complexity is partially > necessary because to raise MPG (Miles Per Gallon) you need a computer > to micromanage timing and amount of spark, air, fuel, and how they > interact. I know of no similar necessity with computers. You must never have dealt with *aaS, you must never have done fine-tuning and intelligent, dynamical resources allocation to Linux clusters or to heavily multithreading applications. What they're doing on cars is the application to mechanics of what has been done to computers for many years. Just look at how complex just RAM management has become in Linux: * fixed 4KiB pages have become Huge Pages (2MiB, up to 1GiB per page depending on architecture) * madvise and fadvise syscalls can advise the kernel about predicted (=future) memory allocation needs that alter the way the kernel allocates pages * shmem is an internal RAM resident filesystem used to manage shared memory * membarrier() system call allows issuing memory barriers across all running threads * heap placement is performed by a pseudo-random algorithm * VMA (Virtual Memory Address) base address allocation also is * you can choose between at least three SLAB (kernel objects memory allocation algorithm) allocators (depending on architecture): ALSB (regular allocator), SLOB (Simple Allocator) and SLUB (Unqueued Allocator) * automatic merging of slab caches to reduce kernel memory fragmentation * NUMA (Non-Uniform Memory Access) aware memory placement * Control Group support for mem allocation, HugeTLB allocation * support for Remote Direct Memory Access (DMA over TCP/IP) * support for zero-copy (buffer-to-buffer data shuffling) * copy-on-write (sharing of same-page between different processes) * support for Translation Lookaside Buffer (a cache of physical RAM addresses) * support of persistent or ephemeral Transcedent memory, ie "memory that is of unknown and dynamically variable size, addressable only indirectly by the kernel" (Wikipedia) This is just what I could recollect from my kernel-configuration sessions. How many of the entries in /proc/vmstat can you tell what they are and do? Then there are process-management features, CPU allocation strategies, bandwidth allocation algorithms and policies, a huge amount of networking parameters, queues and algorithms to fine tune cache, bandwith and buffer allocation, control exaustion, bottlenecks and latency, filesystem parameters and features too many to number, and of course all sets of security and corruption prevention and mitigation policies and algorithms. Computers have become enormously more complicated from the '60ies than cars and auto repair shop have. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
[Time references are from the video on https://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html ] On 31/01/19 at 12:56, Dmitrii Kashin wrote: > В Чт, 31/01/2019 в 00:19 +0100, Alessandro Selli пишет: [...] > I'd like to notice that Benno just repeats systemd's propaganda. Actually he lists things that Linux+systemd have that BSD does not. And he prompts the BSD community towards implementing what it lacks, *without* *ever* *suggesting* porting systemd to BSD. > All > these theses were considered in 2014 by Jude Nelson. > > Here's the link: > http://judecnelson.blogspot.com/2014/09/systemd-biggest-fallacies.html Good read. But it does not refute anything that Benno Rice said. Fallacy #1.1: "Systemd's components have well-defined interfaces, so you can just replace the parts you don't like." Rice never claimed systemd is cool because you can replace any of it's components. Fallacy #1.2: "The Linux kernel is monolithic, therefore it is okay for systemd to be monolithic" Did Rice ever said anything about systemd being good or bad because of it's monolithic nature. *Fallacy #2: "Lots of people use systemd, therefore you should too"* Rice did not state that. What he did say is that there are reasons systemd caught on like wildfire, it is an innovation right were Linux was more strikingly lagging behing WindowsNT and macOSX (launchd): "active service management" (07:55). He did state the obvious, that all major Linux distributions do run systemd, but he does not suggest this is a reason the BSD people should even try porting it to that OS. Fallacy #2.1: "Systemd earned widespread adoption through its technical merits" He did say systemd has technical merits, and he talked about them. I already listed them, they are again: automatic HW and SW system reconfiguration, cgroups, message transport, service lifecycle, automation API and containers. If an alternative init and service management system is to have any chance at being considered a viable alternative to systemd it's got to be as good as systemd at doing these things. Benno Rice would like the BSD community to star developing their own solution. What about the Linux folks? What do we have, what are developers working on that could do that? Fallacy #3: "People who don't like systemd just don't like change" Well yes, Benno Rice did say that most resistance to systemd stems from the unwillingness to change long time habits. Which is true, I do remember how much I hated migrating from initd to xinetd, learning the new rules iptables introduced compared to ipchains, losing LiLO's and then grub-0.8's simplicity to be forced into grub2's awfully complicated config file syntax and generation procedure. But he said it mostly of the BSD people, and as an example to that he said (28:07): "And one of the biggest problems that I had with the FreeBSD community on this one was things like this: [slide] #systemd got you down? Come see my talk "Switching to the BSDs" at @lfnw this weekend. linuxfestnorthwest.org/conferences/lf... because to me this says on behalf of my community: 'Come join FreeBSD, we'll never change, we refuse to move forward into the future.'" Can you really think sticking to sysv-init to avoid systemd tells anything different? Fallacy #4: "Unit files are better than shell scripts" While he did not state that, it's a matter of fact that SysV's init script have been for decades vilified as an awkward kludge, generally badly implemented, extremely static and inefficient way of managing system services and deamons. And rightly so. All attempts at producing a better init than SysV started with doing away with service scripts and having just config files instead. Fallacy #4.1: "Unit files reduce complexity" While I do acknowledge this is true, I also list this as a problem. Reducing complexity has greatly reduced sysadmin's capability to customize their systems or implementing a workaround when systemd gets something wrong. Benno Rice did say this, and he is right. *Fallacy #4.2: "Shell scripts are buggy"* Yes, they are. A lot. And they often are so easily correctable that I wonder how comes some bugs have staid in init script for years after patches were proposed (a year ago I figured out an init script just needed two lines of code to implement the status reporting it lacked). Scripts are considered something trivial and inessential, they only run once for a very brief time and all it matters is that the service they are to start gets started. I can't explain it in any other way. *Fallacy #4.3: "Systemd is better because it gets rid of shell scripts!"* Again, Benno Rice did not state this, but this is true. Again i point out that *all* sysv-init
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 01/02/19 at 11:19, KatolaZ wrote: > [about 100 lines cut off] Jeez, that many? My wife was right that I got to bed too late yesterday night! > Are you willing to help with enabling s6/s6-rc in Devuan? Oh my, that means I'll have to upgrade to Beowulf! And spend lots of time tuning and reporting about it. When will I ever fix that leaking tap in the bathroom? 洛 > There will > be a talk by its author (Laurent bercot) and a dedicated hacking > session at the Devuan Conference in Amsterdam. More info closer to the > date. Too bad I'll not be able to attend. I wished I was. > Talking about software has never produced software ;) There are *good* reasons I never was a developer, lol! I'm just a sysadmin, I loove telling devs how lousy *their* software is and then wait for their next release to again open several bug reports against it! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Systemd as tragedy
On 31/01/19 at 03:38, Joel Roth via Dng wrote: > On Thu, Jan 31, 2019 at 12:19:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> Might interest someone: >> >> https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ >> >> [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet >> >> His attempt to cast that story for the >> pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at a >> turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. > Hard to believe I listened to the same talk Corbet > is describing. What I heard was a propaganda piece, > finding reasons to sell the systemd approach > to BSD conference attendees. Not really. He points out there were good reasons to want a new init, that systemd was a try at innovating something that was old, and that this is a different matter compared to *how* that change was implemented. Honestly, the anti-systemd front is never going to prevail pushing technology dating from the 70's or steering the debate into an ad hominem assault against Lennart Poettering. It's only chance is developing something better, an init system and daemon management-and-monitoring tool that was simpler, more versatile, customizable and stable than systemd. That is, the only chance against systemd is to come up with something technically better. May I ask you to please present technical arguments either against systemd or in favor of alternatives rather than railing against LP or Benno Rice? Because reading what you wrote, I believe I heard a different talk than you have. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o_AIw9bGogo Nowhere does he state that BSD should adopt systemd, but he does point out that BSD is lagging behind Linux on many key fronts: automatic HW and SW system reconfiguration, cgroups, message transport, service lifecycle, automation API and containers, for instance. But nowhere does he peddle systemd to the BSD folks. He instead stated that: (30:26) "systemd makes heavy use of dbus. I'm not a big fan of dbus but i am a big fan of messages. [...] One of the things that I told the BSD people was basically we should write our own message transport. My version, if I were to write one, would be kernel resident rather than user space and would allow a lot more of security and authentication and access control elements on the actual bus endpoints". (33:13) "The barrier to entry for building something on top of it like an appliance is massively reduced. But again systemd doesn't have to be the only implementation of this. You should go and explore". This is technical reasoning, this is pointing out what need to be done to turn the tide on something different, on something better than systemd. He rightly states that better does not necessarily mean "the way it was done before", change is part of life and resisting it just out of aversion to change eventually proves futile. There are points over which I disagree with him, when he states that binary logs are a good idea for instance, but he is damn right that bickering against Poetering's personality or that systemd goes against the principles of Unix as they were laid out 40-50 years ago is a losing proposition. We're talking of software, technology and system services, systemd is leading right now and sysv-init is worthless as a weapon against it. Linux is in need of something better, at least in terms of simplicity and robustness, than systemd. But I still can't see anything capable of taking the lead and gaining back a significant share of the installed base from systemd. Which worries me, because this means that systemd is going to become ever more entrenched in the Linux ecosystem, to the point it might begin to dictate the future evolution of the OS, from the kernel to userland. And still what I hear the most is that systemd stinks because LP is an assh*le or that it violates the Unix philosophy. When I hear people speak of philosophy on technology matters I think they don't have a clue yet they're struggling to prevail on a purely dialectical plane. I've been waiting years for something better than systemd, modern and simpler, more modular, customizable and easier to understand and predict. Years when systemd just got bigger, more tentacular and more widely adopted. And all I got was the same old, static, sclerotic sysv-init. Enough with calling people names when they don't share your attitudes against Lennart Poettering or when they don't blame systemd for the death of the neighbor's cat. What can be used today to replace systemd that was not devised 40 years ago when networks were as static as motorways and external removable devices required a technician to change them? What can be used that will run virtualized, containerized systems just as well, that is easier, more customizable and more reliable? In my current job I manage the less than 10% of the infrastructure that runs on non-Windows systems. They are all
[DNG] Systemd as tragedy
Might interest someone: https://lwn.net/Articles/777595/ [Front] Posted Jan 28, 2019 20:05 UTC (Mon) by corbet Tragedy, according to Wikipedia, is "a form of drama based on human suffering that invokes an accompanying catharsis or pleasure in audiences". Benno Rice took his inspiration from that definition for his 2019 linux.conf.au talk on the story of systemd which, he said, involves no shortage of suffering. His attempt to cast that story for the pleasure of his audience resulted in a sympathetic and nuanced look at a turbulent chapter in the history of the Linux system. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..alsa+apulse and torbrowser... rpath is /usr/lib/apulse and is too long???
On 22/01/19 at 08:38, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2019-01-22 01:12, Arnt Karlsen wrote: >> On Tue, 22 Jan 2019 14:04:02 +0900, Simon wrote in message >> <24516662-997c-fa54-ab14-d12437192...@gikaku.com>: >> >>> IMCO, If a piece of software requires PulseAudio, it deserves to be >>> silent. >> >> ..agreed, except the Tor Browser users are a little too important to >> leave alone in PulseAudio/Systemd hands, for some Tor Browser users, >> this is a life or death issue, as some regimes actually do commit >> murders on people they like to see dead and buried. >> >>> I run a studio and muck around with "pro" linux audio apps from time >>> to time but mostly xwax. That is why I knew Systemd would be no good. >>> I want to hear the excuses for wasting CPU cycles and damaging ears >>> from you-know-who. >> >> ..I'd rather use this thread for practical advice on setting up >> alsa + apulse + torbrowser configurations, which will be more >> useful to Tor Browser users not trusting PulseAudio or Systemd. > > I've been waiting for a good apulse howto to appear for along time. > Maybe that time has finally come. I would contribute. I did manually set XFCE's firefox launch buttons to run "apulse firefox" instead of firefox directly, I could also patch /usr/share/applications/firefox-esr.desktop to do the same, but I'd like to devise a way just installing apulse would set everything up for users automatically in the post-install script. This way people (especially not technically minded ones) would have less fiddling to do to customize their systems. And I'd bet even non techies would appreciate sparing themselves some time just to let their system behave in a sane way. But let's start with a simple howto first. Where shall we coordinate our effort, push our contributions to? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] ..alsa+apulse and torbrowser... rpath is /usr/lib/apulse and is too long???
On 22/01/19 at 18:28, Hendrik Boom wrote: > On Wed, Jan 23, 2019 at 01:37:17AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote: >> I don't see what sound has to do with that. Gotta have that video stream? > If you're a video journalist, yes. Even if you're not. Everybody (well, almost) has ears to hear and a mouth to speak, and it's been a pretty long time that software has been used to deliver not just text, but video and audio as well (jeez, I first did it on a Pentium-166!). -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd
On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote: > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251 > > “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or > earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined > holidays from packaging it.” > > “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while. > > What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.” > This takes place after he discussed a bug <https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/11436#issuecomment-454535318> in which he expected systemd to respect local settings, and not rename network devices: > @yuwata a default policy like > /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link should never trump > explicit user configuration. > Later he seems surprised about how things roll there: > I'm amazed that I have to point this out > Yes, it's amazing. Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally adopted as a key piece of the OS. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan on the Librem5 devkit
On 31/12/18 at 22:10, Daniel Abrecht via Dng wrote: > My devuan Images can boot on the librem5 devkit now. Great news! > A lot of things, like the lcd display, don't work yet, Not so great news! > but I'm working on it. Good news! Well, with a 2 to 1 majority of good news, the new year is starting positively! Happy New Year to everybody! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] (no subject)
On 25/12/18 at 15:31, Carlos AT via Dng wrote: > Hi > > I've been having issues to make my keyboard accent keys work properly. > I use the english language as default, but sometimes I make use of the > brazilian portuguese version. > > If a word such as "é" is typed, the result is "´e". As if it didn't > recognize the dead keys as such. > > I already tried selecting all available layouts without solving this. > Anybody has any idea on how to fix this? How do you switch of keyboard layout? On the terminal you can use loadkeys XX (where XX is the selector of the natioonal language, pt for Portugese), under X11 you can use setxkbmap XX instead. Hope it works. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] IceCat
On 25/12/18 at 10:51, aitor wrote: > > Hi all, > > I recently packaged the icecat browser for devuan ascii replacing to > mozilla firefox: > > http://www.packages.gnuinos.org/gnuinos/pool/main/i/icecat/ > Very well, that's a neat Xman present! ☺ -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Installing without rebooting
On 20/12/18 at 15:32, Arnt Karlsen wrote: > On Thu, 20 Dec 2018 00:59:35 +1100, Ralph wrote in message > : > >> There is this notion of "kexec boot"; I've never tried it, but it's >> documentation claims "kexec is a system call that enables you to >> load and boot into another kernel from the currently running kernel." >> >> Maybe it comes with too many ifs and buts to be a viable approach. >> >> Ralph. > ..I used to "kexec reboot" a lot in my pre-systemd Debian days, > AFAIR, bought me nice long uptimes with new kernels. ;o) AFAIR, uptime is not maintained through a kexec. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 16/12/18 at 13:28, KatolaZ wrote: > automagic disk encryption, Well, if you cannot install on an encrypted root, encrypting it later is a real PITA. The present impossibility of installing ASCII on an encrypted root is a show-stopper to my laptop installs (I install Debian, then, sometime, in the future, when I get enough time to do it, I'll migrate it to Devuan...) -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] What should be the tasks of the Devuan Installer
On 16/12/18 at 11:10, KatolaZ wrote: > However, I am pretty sure that 99.9% of the Devuaners would probably > find the result quite uncomfortable, inconvenient, skinny, and overly > archaic. Not I. What VUA would? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] About gnuinos ascii
On 12/12/18 at 00:36, aitor wrote: > Thanks for your attention, and merry christmas to all of you :) Thank you for your contribution, and Happy Christmas and Merry New Year to you! ☺ -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Audio woes in Ascii - speakers but no headphones
On 09/12/18 at 17:16, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote: > On 10/11/18 9:00 PM, Lars Noodén wrote: > > > I booted Linux Mint 19's Live image and the audio jack functions as > normal there so the problem seems to be with Devuan. I am open for > ideas about how to resolve this so that the audio jack may be used again. > > /Lars > > $ lsb_release -d; uname -r; > Description: Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) > 4.9.0-8-amd64 > > The lack of sound from the headphone jack is still a problem with a > newer kernel: > > $ lsb_release -d; uname -r; > Description:Devuan GNU/Linux 2.0 (ascii) > 4.18.0-0.bpo.1-amd64 > > What should I be looking at from within Devuan? > > /Lars i solved a like problem unloading and re-loading snd_hda_intel. See if the same happens to you (maybe with some other audio modules, according with what sound hardware you have). -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room
On 03/12/18 at 18:19, Tomasz Kundera wrote: > On Sun, Dec 2, 2018 at 2:40 PM Rowland Penny <mailto:rpe...@samba.org>> wrote: > > On Sun, 2 Dec 2018 14:28:25 +0100 > Tomasz Kundera mailto:tnkund...@gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > You can still use NIS if you don't need the power (and > complexity) of > > samba. > > > > NIS is a bit outdated and Samba isn't that complex from a Linux point > of view. > > > It is outdated because? It's unencrypted, hard to firewall, unsecure by design. > It works, at least in simple cases. Yeah, sure, even rsh works (sometimes), still it's a very outdated protocol. > The choice depends on your needs. Samba is not needed everywhere and > yes, it is more complex then a simple NIS installation. My experience differs. NIS relies on a number of RPC services, local and netwide settings (nisdomainname vs. fqdn), server- and client-side commands, files and related DBs that the first time I could get it to work I uncorked the finest sparkling wine I had and rushed to set everything I had done in virtual stone: http://alessandro.route-add.net/Unixalia/configurare_NIS.html (in Italian, sorry). A few years later, my first Samba installations were not as painful and time-consuming, it's all in one config file (well, two with smbpasswd), but maybe that's because I was not using it from Windows PCs. > I do not suggest that samba is a bad choice. It depends on the needs > as I have written above. I suggest to stay away from NIS except in a few cases: 1. it was already setup and configured by someone else and it's working; 2. it's operating in a secure, non critical environment; 3. people in the organization are already familiar with it (ie, they're all grey-haired or bald and gray-bearded or look like Yoda); 4. long-term support is not an issue. In all other instances, run LDAP and/or Samba instead. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
[DNG] systemd killed the NIS star [was: Re: Request for comments - training room]
On 03/12/18 at 14:51, Bruce Ferrell wrote: > On 12/3/18 5:22 AM, g4sra wrote: >> >From my perspective, this topic has had some very interesting >> contributions. Thank you all whom have contributed. >> >> To pick out just one as an example, I had considered NIS\YP to be (or >> rather didn't consider because) all but defunct, and not taken it's >> simplicity and reliability over other methods into consideration. > > NIS/YP is especially interesting for me as something long unused. Sorry to bring you these sorry news, people, but Dr. Nikolaus Klepp is right: NIS really has kicked the bucket: https://tracker.debian.org/news/1001786/nis-removed-from-testing/ nis REMOVED from testing News for package nis <https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/nis> * *From*: Debian testing watch <mailto:nore...@release.debian.org> * *To*: <mailto:n...@packages.debian.org> * *Date*: Thu, 08 Nov 2018 04:39:20 + * *Subject*: nis REMOVED from testing FYI: The status of the nis source package in Debian's testing distribution has changed. Previous version: 3.17.1-3 Current version: (not in testing) Hint: <https://release.debian.org/britney/hints/auto-removals> Bug #834298: nis: Can't ypbind Interesting read: https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=834298 From: Elimar Riesebieter To: Mark Brown Cc: 834...@bugs.debian.org Subject: Re: nis: Can't ypbind Date: Tue, 16 Aug 2016 13:52:35 +0200 control reopen +1 * Mark Brown [2016-08-16 12:11 +0100]: > On Sun, Aug 14, 2016 at 12:02:06PM +0200, Elimar Riesebieter wrote: > > > since 3.17-35 I can't bind to my nisserver anymore. Downgrading to > > 3.17-34 succeeded. Please notice: > > This appears to be some change that's systemd related, AFAICT it works > fine outside of systemd but gets killed when running inside systemd. > I'm assuming that the dbus integration was causing systemd to notice > that it was still running. My server is a sysvinit system. Can't bind from either a sysvinit Desktop nor a systemd Desktop the sysvinit server. Nevertheless why don't we update to ypbind-mt-1.38? Elimar -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
Il 03/12/18 12:53, Alessandro Selli ha scritto: > On 03/12/18 at 11:30, Edward Bartolo wrote: >> Running "update-rc.d rsyslog disable 2" resulted in error messages >> like the following: >> >> ERROR MESSAGE: >> insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) A of script 'rsyslog' >> overrides LSB defaults B >> >> There were four lines with similar text but with A and B as follows: >> a) A = (3 4 5); B = (2 3 4 5) >> b) A = (0 1 2 6); B= (0 1 6) >> c) A = (3 4 5); B = (2 3 4 5) >> d) A = (0 1 2 6); B = (0 1 6) >> >> Is this Ok? > > Yes, they're just warnings (I take the line "ERROR MESSAGE:" line is > not from the output of update-rc.d). > > > On my system, for instance: > > > [root@wkstn02 ~]# ls /etc/rc?.d/???atd > /etc/rc0.d/K01atd /etc/rc2.d/S03atd /etc/rc4.d/S03atd /etc/rc6.d/K01atd > /etc/rc1.d/K01atd /etc/rc3.d/S03atd /etc/rc5.d/S03atd > [root@wkstn02 ~]# update-rc.d atd disable 2 3 > * service atd removed from runlevel default > insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) (4 5) of script `atd' overrides > LSB defaults (2 3 4 5). > insserv: warning: current stop runlevel(s) (0 1 2 3 6) of script `atd' > overrides LSB defaults (0 1 6). > insserv: warning: script 'savecache' missing LSB tags and overrides > [root@wkstn02 ~]# ls /etc/rc?.d/???wdm > /etc/rc0.d/K01wdm /etc/rc2.d/S04wdm /etc/rc4.d/S04wdm /etc/rc6.d/K01wdm > /etc/rc1.d/K01wdm /etc/rc3.d/S04wdm /etc/rc5.d/S04wdm > [root@wkstn02 ~]# > > > Please note that the service atd was disabled on runlevels 2 and 3 only. Sorry, I issued the wrong command: [root@wkstn02 ~]# ls /etc/rc?.d/???atd [root@wkstn02 ~]# /etc/rc0.d/K01atd /etc/rc2.d/K01atd /etc/rc4.d/S03atd /etc/rc6.d/K01atd /etc/rc1.d/K01atd /etc/rc3.d/K01atd /etc/rc5.d/S03atd [root@wkstn02 ~]# To put everything like before: [root@wkstn02 ~]# update-rc.d atd enable 2 3 * service atd added to runlevel default insserv: warning: script 'savecache' missing LSB tags and overrides [root@wkstn02 ~]# ls /etc/rc?.d/???atd /etc/rc0.d/K01atd /etc/rc2.d/S03atd /etc/rc4.d/S03atd /etc/rc6.d/K01atd /etc/rc1.d/K01atd /etc/rc3.d/S03atd /etc/rc5.d/S03atd [root@wkstn02 ~]# Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 03/12/18 at 11:30, Edward Bartolo wrote: > Running "update-rc.d rsyslog disable 2" resulted in error messages > like the following: > > ERROR MESSAGE: > insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) A of script 'rsyslog' > overrides LSB defaults B > > There were four lines with similar text but with A and B as follows: > a) A = (3 4 5); B = (2 3 4 5) > b) A = (0 1 2 6); B= (0 1 6) > c) A = (3 4 5); B = (2 3 4 5) > d) A = (0 1 2 6); B = (0 1 6) > > Is this Ok? Yes, they're just warnings (I take the line "ERROR MESSAGE:" line is not from the output of update-rc.d). On my system, for instance: [root@wkstn02 ~]# ls /etc/rc?.d/???atd /etc/rc0.d/K01atd /etc/rc2.d/S03atd /etc/rc4.d/S03atd /etc/rc6.d/K01atd /etc/rc1.d/K01atd /etc/rc3.d/S03atd /etc/rc5.d/S03atd [root@wkstn02 ~]# update-rc.d atd disable 2 3 * service atd removed from runlevel default insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) (4 5) of script `atd' overrides LSB defaults (2 3 4 5). insserv: warning: current stop runlevel(s) (0 1 2 3 6) of script `atd' overrides LSB defaults (0 1 6). insserv: warning: script 'savecache' missing LSB tags and overrides [root@wkstn02 ~]# ls /etc/rc?.d/???wdm /etc/rc0.d/K01wdm /etc/rc2.d/S04wdm /etc/rc4.d/S04wdm /etc/rc6.d/K01wdm /etc/rc1.d/K01wdm /etc/rc3.d/S04wdm /etc/rc5.d/S04wdm [root@wkstn02 ~]# Please note that the service atd was disabled on runlevels 2 and 3 only. Running: update-rc.d atd disable would disable atd on all runlevels. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 03/12/18 at 10:50, Adam Borowski wrote: > On Mon, Dec 03, 2018 at 10:33:44AM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> On 03/12/18 at 10:05, Adam Borowski wrote: >>> realtime greatly reduces atime writes, but it's still too much. >> I wouldn't say so. Since relatime updates atime only relative to the >> present ctime and mtime, it's only changed when one of those two is >> changed. That is, updating atime does not require a separate write >> operation. > That was the original design -- but alas, it was later changed so the atime > is updated at least once a day. My experience is inconsistent with what you write: [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ mount | grep ' on /home ' /dev/mapper/part6_crypt_home on /home type ext4 (rw,relatime,nobarrier) [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ stat .xsession-errors.old File: .xsession-errors.old Size: 47036242Blocks: 91880 IO Block: 4096 regular file Device: fd02h/64770dInode: 655383 Links: 1 Access: (0600/-rw---) Uid: ( 1000/ alessandro) Gid: ( 1000/ alessandro) Access: 2018-07-06 13:22:22.312846358 +0200 Modify: 2018-07-06 13:08:36.392798307 +0200 Change: 2018-07-06 13:22:17.149512721 +0200 Birth: - [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ date Mon Dec 3 11:18:47 CET 2018 [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ uname -r 4.19.5.wkstn02-0 [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ [...] > Every inode has to be updated. Only when it has to be updated. That is, only when attributes or data must be. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 03/12/18 at 10:05, Adam Borowski wrote: > realtime greatly reduces atime writes, but it's still too much. I wouldn't say so. Since relatime updates atime only relative to the present ctime and mtime, it's only changed when one of those two is changed. That is, updating atime does not require a separate write operation. For this reason: > Case in > point: it's the likely culprit for wasting the SD card that started this > thread (on a mostly-read load). if that filesystem was mounted with the relatime option (or with no option at all, since relatime is the default), then it's very unlikely it caused any more writes that if it was fully disabled. > And, update frequency of 1/day happens to > match the typical backup schedule, making it ruin snapshots just the same > as strictatime would. Uh? How can atime "ruin snapshots"? > So it's time to kill the nasty thing. If only it was any nasty. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
OnIl 02/12/18 at 22:58, g4sra wrote: > I have found flashybrid extremely beneficial in the past, on switching > from Debian to Devuan Ascii it appears not to be in the repository, is > it in Beowulf ?. I am not aware of any dependencies it has on > systemd. It was removed from Debian on January 2017: https://tracker.debian.org/pkg/flashybrid Looks like development upstream stopped 11 years ago: https://github.com/elcuco/flashybrid Latest commit 2a0d291 <https://github.com/elcuco/flashybrid/commit/2a0d291101605ecc9511e5fea6d29f91d98be0a1> on 23 Sep 2007 -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 02/12/18 at 21:04, Rick Moen wrote: > I also recommend (while in single-user mode as the root user) doing this > in each of your system's mountpoint directories: > > # touch NOTHING_IS_MOUNTED_HERE > # chattr +i NOTHING_IS_MOUNTED_HERE > > That's saved me confusion quite a few times when I'm puzzled about one > of those directories unexpectedly lacking the expected files. Good idea. To address the same problem I often set the unmounted mountpoint chmod 0. However, I noticed this setting causes sshfs to fail with the message: fuse: failed to open mountpoint for reading: Permission denied Your method does make sense. It even works for root! ☺ -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 02/12/18 at 17:23, Adam Borowski wrote: > You'd want to set noatime on every machine > you control. Some mail servers and clients do use it to determine if a mail was read after it arrived. In this case, it'd be better to have it set on /var. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] packages.devuan.org is not updated for a long time
On 02/12/18 at 20:51, Rob wrote: > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐ > On Sunday, 2 December 2018 18:27, Hleb Valoshka <375...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> cat /etc/apt/sources.list >> deb http://packages.devuan.org/merged ceres main contrib non-free >> >> sudo apt update >> Hit:1 http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged ceres InRelease >> Reading package lists... Done >> Building dependency tree >> Reading state information... Done >> 8 packages can be upgraded. Run 'apt list --upgradable' to see them. >> >> Those 8 are from the previous update made a week or two ago. >> >> lynx --dump http://packages.roundr.devuan.org/merged/dists/ceres/main/ >> [23]Contents-all.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:09 >> 34 >> [24]Contents-amd64.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12 >> 36760877 >> [25]Contents-arm64.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:15 >> 35139206 >> [26]Contents-armel.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:17 >> 34457135 >> [27]Contents-armhf.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:18 >> 34888021 >> [28]Contents-i386.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:20 >> 36720025 >> [29]Contents-source.gz 08-Oct-2018 10:12 >> >> host packages.roundr.devuan.org >> packages.roundr.devuan.org has address 5.196.38.18 >> >> Dng mailing list >> Dng@lists.dyne.org >> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > https://devuan.org/os/etc/apt/sources.list has info. > > Rob Yes, we're supposed to use deb.devuan.org. However, it has issues with SSL certificates and some mirror repositories if I configure it to work over https: [...] Err:14 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages SSL: certificate subject name (ftp.fau.de) does not match target host name 'deb.devuan.org' Err:37 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates/main amd64 Packages SSL: certificate subject name (ftp.fau.de) does not match target host name 'deb.devuan.org' Err:61 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/main amd64 Packages SSL: certificate subject name (ftp.fau.de) does not match target host name 'deb.devuan.org' Ign:62 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/main Translation-it_IT [...] Ign:59 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/non-free all Contents (deb) Reading package lists... Done W: The repository 'https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii Release' does not have a Release file. N: Data from such a repository can't be authenticated and is therefore potentially dangerous to use. N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user configuration details. W: The repository 'https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates Release' does not have a Release file. N: Data from such a repository can't be authenticated and is therefore potentially dangerous to use. N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user configuration details. W: The repository 'https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security Release' does not have a Release file. N: Data from such a repository can't be authenticated and is therefore potentially dangerous to use. N: See apt-secure(8) manpage for repository creation and user configuration details. E: Failed to fetch https://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/main/binary-amd64/Packages server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none E: Failed to fetch https://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-updates/main/binary-amd64/Packages server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none E: Failed to fetch https://deb.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none E: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead. On a second run: [...] Ign:14 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii/main all Packages Err:15 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii/main amd64 Packages server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none Err:32 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates/main amd64 Packages server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none Err:49 https://deb.devuan.org/merged ascii-security/main amd64 Packages server certificate verification failed. CAfile: /etc/ssl/certs/ca-certificates.crt CRLfile: none -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 02/12/18 at 21:07, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Am Sonntag, 2. Dezember 2018 schrieb Edward Bartolo: >> On 02/12/2018, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: >> [...] >>> Do not use swap. >>> Use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp. >>> Turn off logging. >>> Mount / readonly. >>> Use "noatime" mountoption. >>> >> How can I use ramfs for /tmp and /var/tmp? > In your /etc/fstab: > tmpfs /tmptmpfs relatime0 1 > tmpfs /var/tmptmpfs relatime0 1 You'd better specify the mode=1777 mount option, to make sure the tmp directory is going to have the Deletion Restriction Bit set. >> And, also turn off logging? > If you like a logfile that's available till shutdown: > tmpfs /var/logtmpfs relatime0 1 > > Or disable rsyslogd .. I think it was this sequence: > # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 2 > # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 3 > # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 4 > # update-rc.d rsyslog disable 5 update-rc.d rsyslog disable will work for all runlevels. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Request for comments - training room
On 02/12/18 at 14:28, Tomasz Kundera wrote: > You can still use NIS if you don't need the power (and complexity) of > samba. As if NIS was simple... Alessandro > On Thu, Nov 29, 2018 at 9:40 PM Carl <mailto:ca...@panix.com>> wrote: > > On 11/24/18 1:55 PM, g4sra wrote: > > > I would appreciate advice on the following situation > > > > I have several hosts of differing architectures or peripherals in a > > training room (several training rooms actually but each are > independent > > of each other) which are supported by a server running the > standard *NIX > > network services DHCP, BIND etc. The server also has the training > > application (which is single install license but multi-user) > installed > > on it . > > > > How should this training room be best implemented for > reliability and > > ease of maintenance ? > That is a very general question. You'd have to ask more specific > ones to > get > > useful answers. How many nodes? Do you get to spec the hardware or > just the > software? Is the hosted application Windows-based? Web-based? > Linux-based? > Are these rooms used only for training on that one application, or > is the > app a Learning Management System that can launch several different > courses? > Are you asking only about server implementation, or also client? Etc. > -- > Carl Fink > c...@finknetwork.com <mailto:c...@finknetwork.com> > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org <mailto:Dng@lists.dyne.org> > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng > > > > -- > Tomasz Kundera > > ___ > Dng mailing list > Dng@lists.dyne.org > https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
On 02/12/18 on 13:08, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote: > > If you disable journalling on ext4 you can just as well mount it with > ext2 afaik. > > Grtz > > Nick > No, ext2 is significantly slower than a journal-less ext4 filesystem. This must be due mainly to the fact that ext4 uses an improved block-allocator algorithm, one that merges the allocation of a series of blocks to the same file in one run instead of $FILE_SIZE/$BLOCK_SIZE runs. I recently run a comparison test on an old 1GB USB pendrive connected to a USB-2 port, here you are with the log: [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ cat bin/bomb_filesystem.sh #!/bin/dash TESTROOT=/mnt/loop MAXDIRS=100 MAXFILES=10 if mountpoint --quiet "$TESTROOT" then I=0 while test "$I" -lt "$MAXDIRS" do mkdir "$TESTROOT/Dir_$I" || break I=$((I+1)) done I=0 while test $I -lt "$MAXDIRS" do J=0 while test $J -lt "$MAXFILES" do dd count=$((1024+16*J)) if=/dev/zero of="$TESTROOT/Dir_$I/file_$J" J=$((J+1)) done I=$((I+1)) done else echo "ERROR: \"$TESTROOT\" does not exist or is not a mountpoint" >&2 exit 1 fi [root@wkstn02 ~]# mkfs.ext2 /dev/sdb [root@wkstn02 ~]# mount /dev/sdb /mnt/loop [root@wkstn02 ~]# chown alessandro /mnt/loop [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (bomb_filesystem.sh ; sync) real 10m35,149s user 0m1,042s sys 0m1,921s [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ df /mnt/loop File system Size Used Avail Use% Mounted on /dev/sdb 953M 541M 364M 60% /mnt/loop [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (\rm -r /mnt/loop/Dir_* ; sync) real 0m2,133s user 0m0,009s sys 0m0,076s [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (bomb_filesystem.sh ; sync) real 11m10,261s user 0m0,961s sys 0m2,109s [root@wkstn02 ~]# umount /dev/sdb [root@wkstn02 ~]# mkfs.ext4 -O ^has_journal /dev/sdb [root@wkstn02 ~]# mount /dev/sdb /mnt/loop [root@wkstn02 ~]# chown alessandro /mnt/loop [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (bomb_filesystem.sh ; sync) real 3m39,434s user 0m1,024s sys 0m1,950s [alessandro@wkstn02 ~]$ time (\rm -r /mnt/loop/Dir_* ; sync) real 0m2,486s user 0m0,002s sys 0m0,082s -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan for Raspberry Pi fried SD CARD.
Il 02/12/18 11:41, Edward Bartolo ha scritto: > Hi everyone. > > Recently I have been using a Raspberry Pi 3B, obviously powered with > Devuan, to run as music player. Restarting it yesterday, I was > dismayed to discover it would not boot properly anymore, with long > lists of errors complaining about not being able to write to the SD > CARD. The latter is not full. Examining it I found it is now > permanently marked as read-only. Searching online for an explanatory > cause, I learnt this occurs when the maximum number of write cycles is > reached. So, the SD CARD, although brand new is now to be thrown away. > > The purpose of this email is to ask how to radically minimized write > cycles to the SD CARD when I run Devuan for Raspberry Pi 3. I found a > how-to which uses /tmp fs for frequently modified system files, but > the user uses systemd and I do not want to have that. > > Can any good soul help, please? > Thanks. All you need to do is putting this line in /etc/fstab: tmpfs /tmp tmpfs defaults,mode=1777 0 0 Then you go into runlevel 1, erase everything in /tmp, mount it and go back to runlevel 2 (or what you use on your RP3B). Others have already suggested more ways you can reduce writes to your filesystems. I would add, if your device's power source is backed by a battery and you use an ext4 filesystem, to format or mount it with: 1. journal disabled (nointegrity); 2. barriers disabled (nobarrier or barrier=0). These mount options will increase the chance of data loss and filesystem corruption in the case of an abnormal filesystem close (system crash or sudden power loss), but significantly decrease the number of write operations on the ext4 filesystem during regular operation. Alessandro -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 29/11/18 at 18:19, Roger Leigh wrote: > If you're a ZFS user Yeah, that's it. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 11:37, Didier Kryn wrote : > Le 28/11/2018 à 10:35, Rick Moen a écrit : >> Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): [...] > Hi Rick. > > It seems to me you're fighting to get the last bit of performance > out of mechanical hard drives, including by using different > filesystems for different partitions, which makes a lot of sense for > servers. I agree that filesystem play a major role in performance and > safety. For the performance of the disks, and considering you speak of > servers, you ommit to speak of the RAID configuration, which seems to > me more important than the location of the partitions. Different mount options for different parts of the Unix filesystem apply also to RAID and LVM metadevices/device-mapper backed filesystems, too. > For what concerns, laptops, I think we are in the era of ssd and, > unfortunately, there is usually only one disk drive per laptop, except > of older ones where the cdrom drive can be replaced by a disk. So what? What's wrong in securing the filesystem and optimizing it's performance even on SSDs, even on laptops, even when one has only one storage device? Besides, an increasing number of people give up on the DVD unit to make room for a second HD/SSD installed with an adaptor. > Today, servers are probably still the domain of RAIDs based on > mechanical hard drives, laptops, the domain of ssds, and desktops are > the place where both live together - I have one desktop like this. Server's peculiarities do deserve to be taken into consideration by a soi-disant universal OS. IIRC Debian is used a lot on servers. Why do you think ro, nodev, barrier, sync and other mount options do no make sense on a RAID/LVM filesystem? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 12:11, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 28/11/2018 à 11:25, Rick Moen a écrit : >> Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): >> >>> Le 28/11/2018 à 08:11, Rick Moen a écrit : >>>> If I were relying on NFS during early boot, I'd file a bug against >>>> package >>>> nfs-common, and also, meanwhile, compile a local-package substitute >>>> with >>>> either static binaries or ones linked to libs in /lib (and provide >>>> those). >>> Debian supports diskless hosts mounting an NFS filesystem on /. >> Of course yes. _But_, what I was commenting on was the dependency on >> /usr for the NFS mounting utility in /sbin. That means -- KatolaZ's >> point -- that /sbin/mount.nfs will not function in the absence of /usr. >> My answer to KatolaZ amounted to: Yes, and that's a bug. I would, if I >> needed that during early boot (e.g., during maintenance operation, thus >> needing to be functional even if /usr cannot be mounted), then I would >> file a bug against mount.nfs and, while awaiting attention to the bug, >> compile a local replacement. >> >>> When using initrd/initramfs, this kernel option is no longer >>> necessary and I guess it is just simpler to rely on the modules >>> provided by nfs-common. The motivation is the same as for device >>> drivers and filesystems: boot a generic kernel, have all modules >>> available during early boot to mount / (and /usr). >> But notice that if /usr _is not_ (e.g., cannot be, for some reason) >> mounted, then you are screwed: /sbin/mount.nfs breaks. KatolZ cited >> that utility's dynamic library dependency on a lib in /usr/lib as a >> reason why separate /usr is impractical (for systems needing NFS access >> even if /usr is unavailable). I replied that, IMO, no, that's a reason >> why /sbin/mount.nf thus constructed, has a build error. ;-> >> > IIUC, your argument boils down to "depending on /usr for early > boot is a *bug*", while Roger told us why it has become a *feature* (~: Yes, I got it: From: Roger Leigh Message-ID: <147710ba-7cd8-25e2-1d05-4b0f1589e...@codelibre.net> Date: Fri, 23 Nov 2018 17:01:07 +To: dng@lists.dyne.org "A separate /usr is no different. It has a very real cost to support" That is, since software devs and packagers have been making a mess of / and /usr use, dumping everything together in the same bin makes the whole system easier to deal with. To me it's like saying: "Since most people at home have been doing a poor job at using different closets to store only their own stuff and each different closet's drawer to put different kinds of clothing, let's dump together whatever belongs to anyone in a big chest placed in the middle of the room. Let's cal this awful mess a feature and voilà! Problem solved!" Not. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 12:45, KatolaZ wrote: [...] > Unfortunately, most of this thread has been just about "oh look how > cool MY setup is, oh I went around that, oh I tried this and that, oh > I want to have /var on a tmpfs, oh I mount /usr over NFS and you > should try it as well..." and so on and so forth. Yeah, there used to be a time when GNU/Linux allowed sysadmins to easily customize the filesystem layout for whatever reason, it didn't stand in the way because what someone chose not to follow the deafults, or because someone had specific needs that were not taken into account when the distribution was setup. Today this is no longer the case, sadly, Linux is following the path of proprietary OSes that prevent user's choice in the name of ease of upstream packagers. "One size fits all, shut up and fit the mold". It's a shame to me that to regain that freedom of choice I hade to "roll-up my sleeves", fork and maintain packages to undo decisions that were ill-though of at the start. > IMHO, this is mostly out of scope, and does not help Devuan improving > by a single bit. I understand it's hard to appreciate for most of us, > but putting together a distro is not about catering for the needs of > just one user: there is an entire world of possibilities outside :) "just one user"? Really? We're talking of not taking out choices and freedom to customize and tinker, i.e. to cater to the needs of entire classes of users, that they are already here or that they may develop in the future. GNU/Linux is just losing in adaptability, potability and customizability, which was one of the reasons many people switched to it. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 12:36, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): > >> IIUC, your argument boils down to "depending on /usr for early boot is >> a *bug*", while Roger told us why it has become a *feature* (~: > My view, which I expressed in detail prior to Roger joining the thread, > is that it's vital to the most vital function of the root filesystem's > maintenance software directories (/sbin, /bin, /lib, /lib64) that their > binaries function _even_ if /usr is not (or at the moment cannot be) > mounted -- because the most vital function of those subtrees is backup, > restore, repair, maintenance (functions that might be required to > recover/fix /usr). I'd like to point out that even in the case /usr was mounted, and even if it was on the same partition/filesystem as /, it's still very positive that the system does not come down crashing and burning was /usr damaged, allowing the superuser to login to see what happened and attempt to recover the lost data when the system is still online. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 11:37, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 28/11/2018 à 10:35, Rick Moen a écrit : >> Quoting Didier Kryn (k...@in2p3.fr): >> [...] >> > Hi Rick. > > It seems to me you're fighting to get the last bit of performance > out of mechanical hard drives, including by using different > filesystems for different partitions, which makes a lot of sense for > servers. I agree that filesystem play a major role in performance and > safety. For the performance of the disks, and considering you speak of > servers, you ommit to speak of the RAID configuration, which seems to > me more important than the location of the partitions. Different mount options for different parts of the Unix filesystem apply also for RAID and LVM metadevices/device-mapper backed filesystems, too. > For what concerns, laptops, I think we are in the era of ssd and, > unfortunately, there is usually only one disk drive per laptop, except > of older ones where the cdrom drive can be replaced by a disk. So what? What's wrong in securing the filesystem and optimizing it's performance even on SSDs, even on laptops, even when one has only one storage device? > Today, servers are probably still the domain of RAIDs based on > mechanical hard drives, laptops, the domain of ssds, and desktops are > the place where both live together - I have one desktop like this. Do you imply that Debian's decisions regarding filesystem layout do not take into consideration servers? Why do you think ro, nodev, barrier, sync and other mount options do make sense on a RAID/LVM filesystem? -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 12:15, Alessandro Selli wrote: > Why do you think ro, nodev, barrier, sync and other mount options do > make sense on a RAID/LVM filesystem? "... do NOT make sense ..." -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 11:13, Didier Kryn wrote: > Le 28/11/2018 à 08:11, Rick Moen a écrit : >> If I were relying on NFS during early boot, I'd file a bug against >> package >> nfs-common, and also, meanwhile, compile a local-package substitute with >> either static binaries or ones linked to libs in /lib (and provide >> those). > > Debian supports diskless hosts mounting an NFS filesystem on /. This lies outside the case at hand, that was not centered on booting out of a NFS /. > Until the invention of initrd/initramfs, one could use an option > of the kernel, which allows to link all the NFS client logic > statically in the kernel and to pass the mount command arguments > through the kernel command line. > > When using initrd/initramfs, this kernel option is no longer > necessary and I guess it is just simpler to rely on the modules > provided by nfs-common. The motivation is the same as for device > drivers and filesystems: boot a generic kernel, have all modules > available during early boot to mount / (and /usr). > > Didier This does not address the issue of an NFS binary exec in / that has libraries in /usr on a system that mounts /usr over an NFS mount regardless of what the local / is lying on (local disk or network filesystem). -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] merging /tmp
On 28/11/18 at 10:02, Rick Moen wrote: > Swap files were common in Linux systems of the early '90s, but then fell > out of use because swap partitions has a perfomance advantage. But > then, someone found and fixed the performnce gap in the 2000s. Most > admins just don't remember the option exists. The performance gap was reduced, but not closed (the filesystem layer still has a say every time the swap is accessed). And it adds one more way swapped-out data could be accessed by (possibly malicious) processes, i.e. accessing the contents of the file (that's the reason swapon checks the file's permissions and does warn you if they allow anybody other that the owner to read it). -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
be in / (and /boot). >> Most of the utilities you would need to debug a problem in mounting a >> /usr over NFS, or a failing lvm volume, or a scrambled efi partition >> (some of the use cases somebody mentioned before) need stuff in >> /usr. > This has not been my experience for my own use case (granting your point > about /bin/kill and /bin/ps as provided in packaged versions I am not > yet running). If I encounter that, I will consider that situation to > involve critical bugs that I would resolve through the package > maintainer if possible, or via a locally built alternative if not. Yep. I got the feeling developers/packagers have turned on relying on initramfs as an easy way to fix the mess their software/packages produced on a regular, classical Unix installation with a split /usr filesystem. "It works for me", "separate /usr is not supported/you're supposed to use initramfs", bug closed. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 28/11/18 at 09:08, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Alessandro Selli (alessandrose...@linux.com): > >> Can you name me one distribution other than Red Hat (which in >> fact is not a desktop-friendly distribution) that does not allow one to >> "do their own partition setup"? > I'm curious, Alessandro: Is RHEL now completely hostile to custom > filesystem setup? I haven't dealt with a RH installation for a looong time, however I did witness to an incident that happened at a former employer of mine years ago. We let a classroom to RH Italy for them to held a course of theirs. Of course they had to install the latest RHEL on it's PCs (I don't remember if it was a RHEL6 or one of the early 7s). The PCs had a storage controller that could be operated either in SATA/AHCI or in RAID mode, the already present Windows installation was using the only HD present as a plain SATA device. We installed a second HD on each PC and told the RH sysadmin who came to prepare the machines to install the RHEL system only on the second HD, leaving the first one intact (the Windows installation was needed other classes). The RH sysadmin first said "Of course, no problem" and got himself busy with the installation, but after less than two minutes he went: "Oh shit!". Before I knew what had happened I understood at week end I was going to be busy reinstalling Windows, applications and the courseware material on that PC. He then explained me what had happened. He had never installed RHEL on such a PC, with a RAID-capable controller with two HDs before, and he expected the installation program, Anaconda, to ask him on what disk to perform the install. Instead Anaconda the very first thing it did, before he was asked anything about the preferred HD/partitioning layout, was to automatically put the two HDs in a RAID setup, and went ahead on it's own setting up RAID metadata and superblocks on them. Before he could stop it the Windows disk was made unbootable and had to be recovered (reinstalled, actually). I do not expect an OS that does not even let you chose on what disk to perform the install will let you choose a filesystem layout that is not the recommended one, that is LVM across all the available devices. However I haven't performed a RHEL installation since RHEL5, and then my job was to hack the Kickstart files to customize the install process to the customer's specifications. > A long time ago (like maybe RHEL3), Red Hat built > into its Anaconda installer an ncurses-oriented 'guided' partitioning > tool that was guilty of both concealing information (suppressed display > of any extended partition, though logical partitions within it were > displayed) and also unacceptably overrode the installing admin's > judgement (e.g., rearranging following its own criteria the filesystems > to be created). Looks like with RHEL7 things have not improved any: https://www.claudiokuenzler.com/blog/691/custom-partitioning-rhel-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7-setup-installation Custom partitioning on new Red Hat Enterprise Linux 7 setup <https://www.claudiokuenzler.com/blog/691/custom-partitioning-rhel-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7-setup-installation> Thursday - Jan 26th 2017 - by Claudio Kuenzler <https://www.claudiokuenzler.com/about.php> - (0 comments) <https://www.claudiokuenzler.com/blog/691/custom-partitioning-rhel-red-hat-enterprise-linux-7-setup-installation> Unbelieveable how annoying this RHEL 7 installation wizard is! Try to setup manual partitioning with a mix of primary partitions and logical volumes - and RHEL will not boot. Even worse: Although I created the root partition first, somehow the wizard switched it with the swap partition making swap on /dev/sda1 instead of /dev/sda2 (where I wanted it to be). Solution to this: Boot from Knoppix (yes, seriously) and manually create the partitions with parted. Once this was done, rebooted from the RHEL image. On the "Installation Destination" submenu I selected "I will configure partitioning" and then clicked on the blue Done button. > First time I encountered the latter misbehaviour, I > exercised my vocubulary in several languages on the topics of theology > and biology, LOL! > further commented 'Sod _this_ for a lark', cancelled out of > that subscreen, switched to Ctrl-Alt-F2, and used /sbin/fdisk instead. That *might* still work, but I wouldn't bet a dime on it. > Just offhand, I'm betting that a similar approach may still be fruitful, > though I've not needed to deal with the darned thing in quite a while. > > Years later, based partly on that lesson, I started leaning towards a > preference for using a best-of-breed live distro for partitioning and > mkfs'ing all of my filesystems _before_ using the desired distro > installer. FWIW, I found the Siduction live CD ideal for this purpos
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 18:26, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-11-23 09:03, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> On 23/11/18 at 14:32, Stephan Seitz wrote: >>> >>> Again, are you doing the work for your setup you care so much? >> >> >> Yes, I am. It's me who designs the filesystem layout when I chose >> "Manual" in the install program menu. >> >> It's me who reconfigures the kernel to fit my specific use-cases. >> >> It's me who removes and installs software after checking the default >> packages that were installed, it's me who hacks App-armor recipies, PAM >> settings, iptables chains, security/limits settings, login.defs >> settings, udev rules, system services, server configs and so on. I do >> not expect the distribution maintainers to do this for me. I just want >> to keep being free to do it. >> >> > > ME, ME, ME . . . that says it all. Arrogant and selfish too. Yes, it's me who does the work on my systems. Do you have a maid that does that for you? I'm not calling you names because I'm not such a low man like you. > >>>> So, regardless from what's best to the datacenter, can I be >>>> allowed to >>>> follow the 40 years long path and keep having a /usr split from /? >>>> Yes && I stay || I leave. > > Feel free to do so . . . Did it several times before, this time too won't kill me. >>> The choice will probably stay as long as the work to keep it won’t be >>> too much work for the volunteers. >> >> And the day the choice will be gone I will surely jump ship. >> > > If only . . . You just don't get that providing choice is the > responsibility of EACH AND EVERYONE OF US. If WE don't make it > happen, it won't. Seriously, am I asked to prevent people from taking away choices that have been around for 40 years? No way, since there is choice, I just chose the systems that fit my needs and desires. Full stop. > So please stop flapping your gums, roll up your sleeves and and DO > something to make the OS of your dreams a reality not just for you > only but for Devuan. Stop sabotaging things that work! What can I do to prevent people (in Debian, not in Devuan, so far) from doing so? > On 2018-11-23 08:52, KatolaZ wrote: >> >> The fact that somebody is not a Devuan maintainer or developer does >> not empower you to be rude or aggressive with him/her. Apparently you >> are not a Devuan developer or maintainer either, so what? Shall we >> stop reading your emails for this reason, or is the fact that your >> emails are totally irrelevant to this thread (and your tone >> inapprropriate for a civilised place) just enough? >> >> A basic rule of civilised conversations is that you should treat other >> people twice better than you would like them to treat you, especially >> if you don't know them personally. You have been treating a lot of >> people here very badly and irrespectfully. This behaviour is not >> tolerated. Either you stop immediately, or your emails will be >> moderated. >> >> HND >> >> KatolaZ >> > > I have access to the big red button and am getting a bit trigger happy > . . . I am totally unimpressed. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 18:10, goli...@dyne.org wrote: > On 2018-11-23 07:32, Stephan Seitz wrote: >> > > [trim] > >> Since Devuan and Debian are build by volunteers they will do what they >> want to do. If no one is interested in keeping the choices they will >> fade away. Will you step forward and work to keep the choices? >> > > [trim] > >> >> Again, are you doing the work for your setup you care so much? >> > > I suggested something similar about a week ago and no response. > > https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181118.010137.9938d5f1.en.html Wrong, you did get my response: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20181118.033658.96309362.en.html -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 23:17, Roger Leigh wrote: > So if you're insistent upon retaining a separate /usr, that shouldn't > be a problem. Tomorrow morning at 4:00 o'clock I'll wake everyone up ringing the Church's bells to celebrate. -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems
On 23/11/18 at 17:02, Adam Borowski wrote: > Back in 2002, I made a pictorial HOWTO wrt dealing with Wintendo-only > modems: https://angband.pl/fun/winmodem/ -- as you can see, they can be a > tough nut to crack. This HOWTO hasn't lost a bit of its value. LOL! This is getting mad a a piece of hardware! You only spared it the flame-thrower! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 15:52, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 02:52:00PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > [cut] > >> >> My rants were an answer to a (former) Debian maintainer/devloper who >> was on this list justifying the necessity of Debian's / -> merge based >> on the specific needs of datacenters or his own personal tastes. >> >> > You still haven't read the email by Roger Yes, I did. Stop attacking the straw man. > (who is the former sysvinit > maintainer in Debian for several years, and knows what he is talking > about), and probably you haven't fully understood it. He explained > very well that the kind of mechanism he has implemented in initramfs > for the early boot (which is the same damn thing that brings your > computer up), has little or nothing to do with the massive merged-usr > transition proposed now in Debian. Actually, he did that to *avoid* > that a merged-usr was necessary at all. On top of that, the transition > to merged-usr in Debian is still under question, and will most > probably not happen in Buster. But you continue to bang your head > against the wall. I quote Roger: "usr originated because of certain constraints on early Unix systems, and it has persisted since then out of tradition and entrenched usage patterns and designs long after those constraints were lifted." This is one of the moments when the WTF words must've been visible hovering over my head. I thought to myself: "Again with this false argument?" I get all the complexities involved in different FS layout and related boot paths, but why on hell insisting that a split /usr only exists because K. Thompson and D. Ritchie run out of HD space 40 years ago? I listed so many times the reasons I have a split /usr on my systems and to what other uses it was put over time, even of the last Fedora 28 install I have them split and it was the first distribution to declare the split unsupported IIRC, why keep repeating this BS? > Roger has also explained that the rants about "not being able to boot > with a separate /usr and without initramfs" are totally pointeless, They are pointless to a datacenter, not to a desktop install, and I wrote several times my reasons to want such a layout and the different uses I put them to. Roger commented one of them this way: >> 3) having a /usr partition shared by several local installs that are >> booted on different / filesystems; > > It's important to point out here that this has never, *ever*, been a > supported or recommended way of running a Debian system. It's clearly > (and obviously if you think about it) broken by design. It's only broken if you do upgrades on one system and fail to synchronize the others. Of course I do take care of this, and I fully understand that I'm using the OS in a way that it was not designed for and that it's my full responsibility to keep it sane and working. But this is one of the reasons I've always liked GNU/linux: it doesn't (strongly) get in the way when you decide to use in ways that were not envisioned before or that were not endorsed by a Technical Committee. Still this layout is the only way for me to avoid virtualization when I need two very differently configured systems according to what use I put the system: personal workstation vs. course training testbed. The first time I setup such a system it was on a dual core with limited (60 GB) HD room and no virtualization hardware support. It worked so fine I kept running it this way even when I had available an i5 with 2GB HD available. Debian never supported such a layout? I'm fine with it, I can deal with it. Debian proposes changes that will make running such a layout impossible? I'll let my opposition be known, just not to let them say that no one spoke against those changes when the were been debated. Debian makes running such a layout (as well as others) impossible? I leave it. I already left it, in fact. Shall Devuan follow suit, I'll leave it too, so long as there's choice. > since this has been the case in Debian and all the derivatives at > least since Wheezy was testing (i.e., about 7 years ago). If you > haven't noticed in the last seven years, I doubt it would make any > difference to you at all at this point. Yes, I know. Yet it's still been possible to freely customize the FS layout so far, even at install time. This is the reason I expressed no objections before. Now decisions are been debated that will make those possibilities either much more difficult to implement to or just impossible. So, now I do speak out against those proposed changes. >> Or, is Roger Leigh a Devuan maintainer or developer? > The fact that somebody is not a Devuan maintainer or developer does > not empower you to be rude or aggressive with him/her. A
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 14:32, Stephan Seitz wrote:
> On Fr, Nov 23, 2018 at 01:09:17 +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote:
>> I do get the reasons the merge proponents prefer this filesystem
>> layout. What I rant against is their choices being imposed on me.
>
> They are not imposed on you. No one is going to your desktop/server
> and is changing your disc layout.
Debian is (going to). In order to avoid this imposition in Devuan too
the install procedure needs to be modified to provide with a choice and
a new package is beeing introduced. Debian is not going to do this,
because to them the split /usr is:
1. silly;
2. old-time;
3. useless;
4. hard to maintain though it's been done since the early 70s;
5. not datacenter and cluster friendly;
6. esoteric.
>> While I did not state this claim, I thought desktop use was one of the
>> targets Devuan would try to accomodate. If this is not the case then I
>> think I'd better go search some desktop-friendly distribution.
>
> Sorry, you’re funny. A desktop-friendly distribution is certainly not
> a distribution which will ask you about your partition layout and
> filesystem choices because the majority of people who want to use a
> desktop-friendly distribution is not interested in these details.
Speak for yourself. "Desktop install" does not equate to "directed to
the uncultivated masses", even if this was the most common case. Lots
of long-time Unix and GNU/linux sysadmins and developers do desktop
installs, both for their employer and for themselves. And they do hack
and customize lots of things.
> They want very few questions and working desktop after the installation.
This has nothing to do with the possibility of performing any kind of
customization.
And again, speak for yourself.
> This is probably one of the reason why people who want to do their own
> partition setup are not using desktop-friendly distributions…
What? Can you name me one distribution other than Red Hat (which in
fact is not a desktop-friendly distribution) that does not allow one to
"do their own partition setup"?
> You are the first desktop user I have met who insists on having his
> own layout.
You must have lived in a walled garden then, because everybody I know
who regularly uses some GNU/Linux distribution (for their own use and
often at work) regularly does some level of customization of key
elements of the OS: the kernel, the filesystem, PAM settings, the
initramfs, init, service configuration (both SysV init scripts and
systemd unit files) etc.
This is in fact one of the major reasons they use Linux, one of them I
remember saying that he switched to Linux when he quickly got bored at
how little his brand new Windows 98 installation allowed him to do.
>> This is my precisely my point: trumping desktop users' needs (or just
>> freedom of customization and choice) because of cluster ease-of-use
>> considerations make the distribution *not* universal. If Devuan is
>
> Of course it is still universal, or does your desktop (whatever you
> use) stop working after a /usr-merge?
Of course it is no longer universal when I can no longer have a split
/usr filesystem because it makes management of datacenter clusters more
difficult.
> No one removes fvwm, xfce, kde, or the X server.
Straw man attack: I never said the merge prevents me to install this
or any other software. I listed the things it prevents me to do several
times, why are you ignoring those points and make up never before stated
claims?
> And as Roger has tried to tell you every freedom of customization and
> choice you want is work that has to be done by someone.
Don't you tell me!
Even taking away the possibilities I have to customize installations
"is work that has to be done by someone".
> More choices means you need more testing.
Err, mostly not. A distribution can (and in fact they do) have a
default layout that {could be|is} the only officially supported one.
I am fine with testing and troubleshoot my own customizations and
hacks, I do not ask others to do them for me. If for no other reason
that they'd take the fun away. I just want to be able to do them. And
to have some documentation available, next. Many critics of systemd
correctly pointed out how little it lets you customize *your* system,
often making it more fragile. I run into this problem myself, with a
Fedora installation, when systemd was waiting minutes for the swap
partition activation to time out at boot. This was due to the fact that
I had encrypted it's partition, which was working well after the system
booted. But the swap.service had nothing at all that could be
customized, it could not even de disabled, it was a thoroughly
internally managed service. This is one of the reasons I decided to
ditch Fedora and to only use sy
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 14:25, KatolaZ wrote: > On Fri, Nov 23, 2018 at 01:09:17PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: > > [cut] > >> >>> Devuan is currently used in a mutlitude of >>> environments that include server farms, corporate and personal >>> servers, embedded systems, personal devices, and desktops. So any >>> choice Devuan will make has to take into account *all* the different >>> uses of Devuan. >>> >>> We are going to provide the users with the choice of having or not >>> having a merged-usr. >> >> Yes, we are. Debian apparently is no longer going to be. And again I >> was listed the many good reasons the merge is good for the datacenter as >> an answer to my question: "Why must I be denied the possibility to do >> otherwise?". >> > You continue not reading and not understanding. Who is denying you the > possibility to do otherwise? Surely not Devuan, which is still > offering you a choice. You are welcome. Re-read what you just quoted, darn it! «Yes, we [Devuan] are [provide the users with the choice]. *Debian* apparently is no longer going to be.» Who is who fails to understand? > Is Debian you are angry with? Yes. > Then please go explain your reasons to > them, since your rant here is *totally* *out* *of* *scope*. My rants were an answer to a (former) Debian maintainer/devloper who was on this list justifying the necessity of Debian's / -> merge based on the specific needs of datacenters or his own personal tastes. Or, is Roger Leigh a Devuan maintainer or developer? >> Plus the many-times repeated BS of: "The / - /usr split is silly", > I won't discuss anything about the technical motivations behind > merged-usr with people that have not read what Roger said in his > email. And apparently you haven't, so the thread ends here. I did read it, in full. It does not concern desktop installations, only datacenter and clustered installs. He wrote: "This is one of the major factors why I would question the use of esoteric methods of partitioning and booting the system." Esoteric? Esoteric something that's been done for 40 years in most Unixes and in all GNU/Linux distros since 1991? C'm on, stop kidding me! -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] Devuan Jessie + Huawei USB modems
On 23/11/18 at 12:02, Miroslav Skoric wrote: > On 11/22/18 4:28 PM, ael wrote: > >> On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 03:10:15PM +0100, Miroslav Skoric wrote: >>> >>> What is needed to install so that Devuan Jessie recognizes Huawei >>> modems: >>> >>> - Huawei Mobile Connect - 3G modem (Wintendo sees it as such) >>> - Huawei USB modem E3372 4G >>> - Huawei Mobile Wifi router E5573C 4G >> > > > >> Above was on Debian. I imagine that your dongles are more recent: maybe >> quite different. >> >> I wrote some notes on getting a huwai dongle going, but I don't have >> them to hand just now. I think that most of the information was on line. >> > > Well, yesterday I visited some ISP shops here and they mostly offered > dongles or routers as the second and third above, E3372 4G and/or > E5573C 4G. And in the veterans club here they had an older dongle > (i.e. the first one above, 3G) that was earlier used at some Wintendo > machine. I inserted it for test into a dual-boot Wintendo / Devuan > Jessie 64bit and nothing happened. (On the other side, Wintendo > installed drivers and app from files located within the dongle memory.) > > I found some info on the net that such dongles might require to be > switched from the bulk memory stick mode to the modem mode, or > something like that, to be able to activate in Linux. Right, many USB modems show up as something different than a networking device when they are plugged-in. I haven't used any of them for a long time, but I remember many of them show up as a CDROM device which carries the Windows drivers and/or some Windows utility. The actual modem shows up after the CDROM device is unmounted or ejected. IIRC many others instead show up as serial devices and only start operating as a networking device after they're fed a firmware image. The package modemmanager is supposed to take care of the correct initialization of a number of known and supported modems using udev's rules (the ASCII package install 18 such rules). Yet, I think sometimes human intervention is still needed, and of course several USB modems (as well as PCMCIA/CardBus ones and some WiFi dongles and Access Points) are partially, poorly or not supported at all. Alessandro -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 23/11/18 at 06:26, KatolaZ wrote: > On Thu, Nov 22, 2018 at 11:24:05PM +0100, Alessandro Selli wrote: >> On 22/11/18 at 19:21, Roger Leigh wrote: >>> On 21/11/2018 16:11, Alessandro Selli wrote: >>>> On 21/11/18 at 13:17, Roger Leigh wrote: >>>>> Hi folks, >>>>> >>>>> I've been following the discussion with interest. >>>> >>>> No, you definitely have not followed it. In fact you are >>>> disregarding >>>> all the points that were expressed against the merge. >>> Let me begin by stating that I found your reply (and others) to be >>> rude, unnecessarily aggressive, and lacking in well-reasoned objective >>> argument. >> >> Oh poor show flake, did I hurt your tender feelings when I state facts? >> >> > Alessandro, you are not funny at all. I admit I did not intend to be. > Roger is one of the DDs who > stood the systemd avalanche in Debian, and the first one to publicly > support Devuan (please read https://devuan.org/os/debian-fork/ to see > what I mean). All right, thanks be to him for this. > Roger took the time and effort to provide a first-hand explanation > about the whats and whys behind early boot incantations. I do get the reasons the merge proponents prefer this filesystem layout. What I rant against is their choices being imposed on me. > And his > insight in this respect is precious and fundamental. I appreciate that > not everybody might be interested in these details, but this thread is > *exactly* about that, not about your own personal experience with this > or that setup. > > On a related point: no, Alessandro, Devuan is not a Desktop-oriented > distribution. While I did not state this claim, I thought desktop use was one of the targets Devuan would try to accomodate. If this is not the case then I think I'd better go search some desktop-friendly distribution. > Devuan strives to remain as a universal operating system > as Debian claims to be. This is my precisely my point: trumping desktop users' needs (or just freedom of customization and choice) because of cluster ease-of-use considerations make the distribution *not* universal. If Devuan is going to ignore the former users, if Devuan too is going to be a datacenter distribution like Red Hat is and Debian is becoming, fine, you have a right to do so. I'll move on. i state one more: I'm not trying to impose my views, considerations and preferences on others, I'm trying to protect the freedom I've had so far to customize *my* GNU/Linux installations the way I deem fit, that they are to be primarilly used as servers, workstations, routers or emergency/rescue systems. I want the freedom to customize the install to the most radical way, not to prevent others from doing what they want to *their* systems. For this reason it's useless that people keep listing the benefits of a merged / -> /usr for datacenter clusters to justify the Technical Committee's decisions, I don't care what the datacenter guys do to their systems, I'm fine with them merging / -> /usr, as well as splitting /etc from / ro whatever. I don't care so solng as *their* choices and customizations do not turn out to adversely affect *my* customizations and alternative (though decades-long proven) layouts. Because preventing me from dong what I have been doing since the late '90s, and what has been done in many Unixes since the '70s is *not* providing a Universal OS. Is this clear enough? In fewer words: Dear Debian TC, merge or split what the hell you want in the datacenter, but keep you hands off *my* desktop/server installations. > Devuan is currently used in a mutlitude of > environments that include server farms, corporate and personal > servers, embedded systems, personal devices, and desktops. So any > choice Devuan will make has to take into account *all* the different > uses of Devuan. > > We are going to provide the users with the choice of having or not > having a merged-usr. Yes, we are. Debian apparently is no longer going to be. And again I was listed the many good reasons the merge is good for the datacenter as an answer to my question: "Why must I be denied the possibility to do otherwise?". Plus the many-times repeated BS of: "The / - /usr split is silly", "it's a leftover of a distant and bad past", "there's no reason to do it", "storage devices today are big, so why bother?", "you do not gain anything setting /usr ro" while they keep ignoring whatever I write: ro is just one of the many mount options that I set different from the /usr and / filesystems, ro does add security, a merged / -> /usr does make my non-clustered, non-datacenter installs more difficult to
Re: [DNG] /usr to merge or not to merge... that is the question
On 22/11/18 at 22:31, Martin Steigerwald wrote: > barrier related mount options are deprecated, well even removed at least > for XFS, deprecated in 4.10 and and removed in 4.19¹. Write barriers > have been replaced by explicit cache flushes² (somewhere around 2.6.39… > I am too lazy to look it up in my Linux Performance tuning and analysis > training slides right now). To bad I can't take advantage of them because of this: [ 1.031094] sd 0:0:0:0: [sda] Write cache: enabled, read cache: enabled, doesn't support DPO or FUA > But with kernels still supporting the mount > option, nobarrier or barrier=0 would have been simply dangerous for data > integrity unless you have made sure that no sudden write interruption by > for example power loss can happen. I use them on battery-backed systems. Bye, -- Alessandro Selli VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key: BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Dng mailing list Dng@lists.dyne.org https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
