Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux, Beta2 release

Yes, it has to point to something the client knows. Android uses a gstatic.com link. The key is that the client knows to expect a particular response, but the captive middlebox does not. Thereby the client can find out whether there is a captive middlebox or not, by seeing whether it gets

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Hendrik Boom writes: Worst is probably the connections that seem to be wide open, but aren't. The ones where you have to open a browser and look for a page and get an interception page instead asking for your credentials. Those are detectable: Open http://wlanhelper.devuan.org/.html in the

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 07:44:28PM +0100, Adam Borowski wrote: > > Well, it's pretty likely things are quantized at or around Planck's length, > that makes everything integers, and thus the state of the Universe can be > represented in a finite number of bits (although the Planck's length is >

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:44:50PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > The most common cases involve WPA2 or (especially at hotels) wide open. > Those are easily accommodated at the script level. If anybody's using > WEP anymore, they deserve to be diverted to wicd. Worst is probably the connections

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Le 08/12/2016 19:44, Adam Borowski a écrit : Well, it's pretty likely things are quantized at or around Planck's length, that makes everything integers, and thus the state of the Universe can be represented in a finite number of bits (although the Planck's length is smaller compared to atom

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:44:50PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > OK. Fair enough. > > Perhaps do a script for the common cases, and if that fails, tell the > user: > > Failed to get a network. Would you like to try using conman and wicd? > Y/N=> > There is already such a "script" in

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 18:19:46 + KatolaZ wrote: > On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 12:23:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: > > [cut] > > > > > * Because most wifi software sucks, I suggest Devuan roll its own > > CLI software, for the installation, that iwlist wlan0 scanning > >

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 02:07:54AM -0800, Rick Moen wrote: > Quoting Dr. Nikolaus Klepp (dr.kl...@gmx.at): > > > Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb Rick Moen: > > > So, banning software patents is difficult, because of the ease of > > > instantiating software in hardware. > > > > On the

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 11:03:45AM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb KatolaZ: > > On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 10:38:52AM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > > > Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb Rick Moen: > > > > So, banning software patents is difficult,

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb KatolaZ: > On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 10:38:52AM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > > Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb Rick Moen: > > > So, banning software patents is difficult, because of the ease of > > > instantiating software in hardware. > > > >

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Thu, Dec 08, 2016 at 10:38:52AM +0100, Dr. Nikolaus Klepp wrote: > Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb Rick Moen: > > So, banning software patents is difficult, because of the ease of > > instantiating software in hardware. > > On the contrary, it's quite easy: what ever can be implemented

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Am Donnerstag, 8. Dezember 2016 schrieb Rick Moen: > So, banning software patents is difficult, because of the ease of > instantiating software in hardware. On the contrary, it's quite easy: what ever can be implemented using a turing machine is not patentable. -- Please do not email me

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Quoting Clarke Sideroad (clarke.sider...@gmail.com): > I believe software should not be patent-able although could/should be > protected under a shortened copyright term at worst. It used to be the case that software was not patentable. The consequence was that, e.g., the patent on

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

, you're only stating that now. > and once again, the same > guy who brought patents into the mix asserted that I had falsely > diagnosed the OP's problem. You surely did: https://lists.dyne.org/lurker/message/20161206.220637.24cd7edb.en.html |Author: Robert Storey |Date: 2016-12-0

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:55:44 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > Wifi is always problematic. Always. NetworkManager, Wicd, and even the > wpa_* all seem to fail at just the wrong time. If I were Devuan, I'd > create a wifi module that: > > 1) Displays the wifi signals in signal

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 12:23:06PM -0500, Steve Litt wrote: [cut] > > * Because most wifi software sucks, I suggest Devuan roll its own CLI > software, for the installation, that iwlist wlan0 scanning lists the > access points, takes the ssid and password, and then appends the > result of

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 12:11:10 + Simon Hobson wrote: > Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > But then, this is all getting well off-topic for the list and the > thread. The point remains - neither patents nor DMCA are relevant. Indeed we are

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Clarke Sideroad wrote: > I believe software should not be patent-able ... And this is part of the "system is broken" - especially in the USA. A novel business process which happens to use computers/software should (IMO) be patentable under the same rules of prior

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

I believe software should not be patent-able although could/should be protected under a shortened copyright term at worst. Software when you get right down to it is a presentation of an idea using math, ideas are free, math is free, so why a patent? Clarke

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

KatolaZ wrote: > All very good points, indeed, which unfortunately become automatically > nonsense in the case of software. 17 or 25 years are the blink of an > eye for hardcore 19th centrury industrial innovation, when the patent > system was invesned, but correspond to

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 12:11:10PM +, Simon Hobson wrote: > Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > > > No, they were introduced to guarantee the inventor the exclusivity of his > > invention for a certain time, so he alone could profit from it during that > > time. >

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI wrote: > No, they were introduced to guarantee the inventor the exclusivity of his > invention for a certain time, so he alone could profit from it during that > time. > > Introduced to make research economically viable. And the flip side

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Am Mittwoch, 7. Dezember 2016 schrieb Renaud OLGIATI: > On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:45:32 +0100 > Adam Borowski wrote: > > > The reason patents were introduced for was getting more money for the king. > > No, they were introduced to guarantee the inventor the exclusivity of his

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Wed, 7 Dec 2016 11:45:32 +0100 Adam Borowski wrote: > The reason patents were introduced for was getting more money for the king. No, they were introduced to guarantee the inventor the exclusivity of his invention for a certain time, so he alone could profit from it

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Wed, Dec 07, 2016 at 08:10:35AM +, Simon Hobson wrote: > The first bit is correct - most proprietary software is encumbered by > patents, DMCA restrictions, and all that stuff - I almost said "all that > carp" but that would be wrong since both patents and (to a much lesser > extent) DMCA

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Alessandro Selli wrote: >> That's a non sequitur >> The ONLY, and I mean ONLY bit that's relevant is the one about licence terms >> - and that's *relatively* easy to deal with one way or another as the >> licence terms are there to be read (either there are terms

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Quoting Renaud OLGIATI (ren...@olgiati-in-paraguay.org): > On the other hand, by making it impossible to install without having > to go and hunt firmwares under the excuse that they are not open > source, open-source talibans are doing exactly what they condemn in > the systemd talibans: both

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Alessandro Selli wrote: >> OK fine, just have this yes or no question early in the install: >> >> = >> Are you willing to have the install try non-free drivers and firmware >> for your network, video,

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Alessandro Selli said: > I'd like to point out that including proprietary drivers does > not address any of the issues Robert Storey described: > > 1) no WiFi support in the install program; > 2) no DHCP autoconfiguration using a wired Ethernet connection; > 3) Wicd missing after installation. >

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:28:13 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > OK fine, just have this yes or no question early in the install: > > = > Are you willing to have the install try non-free drivers and firmware > for your

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 11:28:13 -0500 Steve Litt wrote: > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 15:27:33 +0100 > Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > Il giorno Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:12:34 -0300 > > Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha scritto: [...]

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 15:27:33 +0100 Alessandro Selli wrote: > Il giorno Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:12:34 -0300 > Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha scritto: > > > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:30:58 +0100 > > Alessandro Selli wrote: > >

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Il giorno Tue, 6 Dec 2016 11:12:34 -0300 Renaud (Ron) OLGIATI ha scritto: > On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:30:58 +0100 > Alessandro Selli wrote: > > > Devuan was born with the intention of removing the artificial limits > > systemd is

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 at 13:54:30 + Dave Turner wrote: > Robert has a very valid point. Robert Storey does have a vlid point. In my opinion Steve Litt does not. Robert Storey laments the lack of WiFi connectivity support in "the installation program

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On Tue, 6 Dec 2016 14:30:58 +0100 Alessandro Selli wrote: > Devuan was born with the intention of removing the artificial limits > systemd is imposing users. Proprietary software is even worse in restricting > people's choice. If your vision of Devuan is something

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

On 06/12/16 13:30, Alessandro Selli wrote: Il giorno Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:55:44 -0500 Steve Litt ha scritto: On Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:05:11 +0800 Robert Storey wrote: It pains me to say this, but the installation program for Devuan Beta2 is

Re: [DNG] Networking on installation: was Devuan GNU+Linux Beta2 release

Il giorno Mon, 5 Dec 2016 13:55:44 -0500 Steve Litt ha scritto: > On Mon, 5 Dec 2016 09:05:11 +0800 > Robert Storey wrote: > > > It pains me to say this, but the installation program for Devuan > > Beta2 is seriously broken. And I say this not