Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

[aitor_czr]

Hi, Yevgeny:

On 12/05/2017 06:50 AM, Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky wrote:

Hello,

could someone enlighten me about differences in eudev and vdev packages?
I don't know which one to choose :)


A version of gnuinos jessie with vdev in action is coming soon, which 
has been working fine for me during months. About eudev, i still didn't 
give it a try.


Cheers,

  Aitor.


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Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

[Ismael L. Donis Garcia]

- Original Message - 
From: "KatolaZ" <kato...@freaknet.org>

To: <dng@lists.dyne.org>
Sent: Tuesday, December 05, 2017 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

It is not unreasonable to assume that eudev might be the default
device manager in ascii, thanks to the work of parazyd, Svante, and
some others.


For my understanding it would be the most successful.


My2Cents



KatolaZ


Thanks
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Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

[Didier Kryn]

Le 05/12/2017 à 12:02, KatolaZ a écrit :

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 11:11:36AM +, Olav Selseng Vestreim wrote:

[cut]


eudev is basically udev, forked by Gentoo from the systemd source tree

   https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Eudev

vdev is a separate device manager, written by Jude Nelson:

   https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev

eudev is actively maintained by the Gentoo folks. vdev seems to not
have been given much love lately, but apparently it works fine in many
Devuan installations.

It is not unreasonable to assume that eudev might be the default
device manager in ascii, thanks to the work of parazyd, Svante, and
some others.

My2Cents

KatolaZ



What about Mdev? I understand it has its limitations in DE environments, but
could that one be developed into a viable solution?


It is possible to use mdev (or even smdev, the suckless version:
https://core.suckless.org/smdev) if you don't need icons popping up
when you stick in any random USB-thing. It is also possible to use the
old MAKEDEV. It is just a matter of expectations.


    If you look towards using mdev, I suggest you google at "mdev like 
a boss". It provides a config file and infrastructure and explains how 
to get Xorg working without libudev. Trying it is on my todo list...


    Didier



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Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 11:11:36AM +, Olav Selseng Vestreim wrote:

[cut]

> > 
> > eudev is basically udev, forked by Gentoo from the systemd source tree
> > 
> >   https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Eudev
> > 
> > vdev is a separate device manager, written by Jude Nelson:
> > 
> >   https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev
> > 
> > eudev is actively maintained by the Gentoo folks. vdev seems to not
> > have been given much love lately, but apparently it works fine in many
> > Devuan installations.
> > 
> > It is not unreasonable to assume that eudev might be the default
> > device manager in ascii, thanks to the work of parazyd, Svante, and
> > some others.
> > 
> > My2Cents
> > 
> > KatolaZ
> 
> 
> 
> What about Mdev? I understand it has its limitations in DE environments, but 
> could that one be developed into a viable solution? 
> 

It is possible to use mdev (or even smdev, the suckless version:
https://core.suckless.org/smdev) if you don't need icons popping up
when you stick in any random USB-thing. It is also possible to use the
old MAKEDEV. It is just a matter of expectations.

When you put together a distro you are not the only use case to take
into account ;)

HND

KatolaZ

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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
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Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

[Olav Selseng Vestreim]

On Tuesday 5. December 2017 09.02.15 KatolaZ wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 01:50:32PM +0800, Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky wrote:
> > Hello,
> > 
> > could someone enlighten me about differences in eudev and vdev packages?
> > I don't know which one to choose :)
> 
> eudev is basically udev, forked by Gentoo from the systemd source tree
> 
>   https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Eudev
> 
> vdev is a separate device manager, written by Jude Nelson:
> 
>   https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev
> 
> eudev is actively maintained by the Gentoo folks. vdev seems to not
> have been given much love lately, but apparently it works fine in many
> Devuan installations.
> 
> It is not unreasonable to assume that eudev might be the default
> device manager in ascii, thanks to the work of parazyd, Svante, and
> some others.
> 
> My2Cents
> 
> KatolaZ



What about Mdev? I understand it has its limitations in DE environments, but 
could that one be developed into a viable solution? 

Cheers,
Olav
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Re: [DNG] eudev or vdev?

[KatolaZ]

On Tue, Dec 05, 2017 at 01:50:32PM +0800, Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky wrote:
> Hello,
> 
> could someone enlighten me about differences in eudev and vdev packages?
> I don't know which one to choose :)
> 

eudev is basically udev, forked by Gentoo from the systemd source tree

  https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Eudev

vdev is a separate device manager, written by Jude Nelson:

  https://github.com/jcnelson/vdev

eudev is actively maintained by the Gentoo folks. vdev seems to not
have been given much love lately, but apparently it works fine in many
Devuan installations. 

It is not unreasonable to assume that eudev might be the default
device manager in ascii, thanks to the work of parazyd, Svante, and
some others.

My2Cents

KatolaZ

-- 
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[ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it  ]
[   @)   http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
[ @@)  http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ] 
[ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]


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[DNG] eudev or vdev?

[Yevgeny Kosarzhevsky]

Hello,

could someone enlighten me about differences in eudev and vdev packages?
I don't know which one to choose :)

-- 
Regards,
Yevgeny
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Go Linux]

On Wed, 8/24/16, Brad Campbell <lists2...@fnarfbargle.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Wednesday, August 24, 2016, 1:55 AM
 
> On 24/08/16 13:57, Steve Litt wrote:
>> On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:37:53 +0800
>> Brad Campbell <lists2...@fnarfbargle.com> wrote:
>>
>>> On 24/08/16 11:13, Steve Litt wrote:

[snip]

>>>>
>>>> These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
>>>> bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
>>>> plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.
>>>
>>> I'm not worried. Mantra from get-go has been "Don't break userspace".
>>> If there is a valid use-case for a feature there will be plenty of
>>> opposition to it's removal.
>>
>> [snip]
>>>
>>> If bus1 really has technical merit, can demonstrate it solves real
>>> problems and has all its shortcomings addressed there is no reason it
>>> shouldn't be integrated into the kernel. They can't then just go and
>>> remove netlink to spite non-systemd users. It has an existing
>>> userspace and other use cases.
>>
>> Assuming by "they" you mean the Lennart and the Redhats, they already
>> have an established pattern and practice of breaking user space. If you
>> mean the kernel developers, they won't be the ones breaking userspace,
>> but a kernel-included bus1 will act very much like the firmware chips
>> they put into toner cartridges just so you won't buy competing toner.
> 
> I'm not entirely sure you understand what I mean by "break userspace".
> It is entirely in the context of the kernel and its interface with
> userspace and absolutely nothing to do with userspace itself. It means
> they can't just go and rip bits out of the kernel that mean *our*
> userspace won't run on it. I don't care what they do with *their* userspace.
> 
>> We're way past the point of thinking the world is a technocracy.
>>
>> Edbarx said it best: "attempting to remove systemd from SID is more
>> like attempting to remove the DNA from living cells expecting them not
>> to die."
>>
>> That sounds very much like breaking userspace to me.
> 
> No, again you have the wrong end of the "userspace". You refer to
> distributions, and I don't care what those distributions do, what they
> break or which init they use. What I care passionately about is ensuring
> that stuff that runs right now continues to run on newer kernels. Oddly
> enough, history has shown that's generally what Linus appears to care
> about also.
> 
> It takes *years* of notice and warning for features to be marked
> deprecated, and then years for them to be removed. *If* during those
> years we discover that our device manager is going to cease to function,
> we have several years to figure out a solution and get it implemented
> and tested. That's a BIG *IF*.
> 
> Don't Panic.
> 

Apropos of this discussion . . . there is a new troll on FDN ramping up the 
rhetoric.  It is revisionist history in action!  Number one on his list speaks 
volumes:

1. systemd users don't care about compatibility to other NIXes in the same way 
that BSD doesn't care about compatibility to us or our licenses. There hasn't 
been 100% POSIX in ages.

http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=623008#p623008

golinux

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Brad Campbell]

On 24/08/16 13:57, Steve Litt wrote:

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:37:53 +0800
Brad Campbell  wrote:


On 24/08/16 11:13, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
Clarke Sideroad  wrote:


I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
bus1 coming along to replace that.
https://github.com/bus1/bus1
http://www.bus1.org/

Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of
systemd

Clarke



DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:

===
COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
David Herrmann 
Tom Gundersen 
===

And from Wikipedia's systemd page:

===
Original author(s)  
Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
===

These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.


I'm not worried. Mantra from get-go has been "Don't break userspace".
If there is a valid use-case for a feature there will be plenty of
opposition to it's removal.


[snip]


If bus1 really has technical merit, can demonstrate it solves real
problems and has all its shortcomings addressed there is no reason it
shouldn't be integrated into the kernel. They can't then just go and
remove netlink to spite non-systemd users. It has an existing
userspace and other use cases.


Assuming by "they" you mean the Lennart and the Redhats, they already
have an established pattern and practice of breaking user space. If you
mean the kernel developers, they won't be the ones breaking userspace,
but a kernel-included bus1 will act very much like the firmware chips
they put into toner cartridges just so you won't buy competing toner.


I'm not entirely sure you understand what I mean by "break userspace". 
It is entirely in the context of the kernel and its interface with 
userspace and absolutely nothing to do with userspace itself. It means 
they can't just go and rip bits out of the kernel that mean *our* 
userspace won't run on it. I don't care what they do with *their* userspace.




We're way past the point of thinking the world is a technocracy.

Edbarx said it best: "attempting to remove systemd from SID is more
like attempting to remove the DNA from living cells expecting them not
to die."

That sounds very much like breaking userspace to me.


No, again you have the wrong end of the "userspace". You refer to 
distributions, and I don't care what those distributions do, what they 
break or which init they use. What I care passionately about is ensuring 
that stuff that runs right now continues to run on newer kernels. Oddly 
enough, history has shown that's generally what Linus appears to care 
about also.


It takes *years* of notice and warning for features to be marked 
deprecated, and then years for them to be removed. *If* during those 
years we discover that our device manager is going to cease to function, 
we have several years to figure out a solution and get it implemented 
and tested. That's a BIG *IF*.


Don't Panic.

--
Dolphins are so intelligent that within a few weeks they can
train Americans to stand at the edge of the pool and throw them
fish.
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Didier Kryn]

Le 24/08/2016 01:29, Adam Borowski a écrit :

[~/linux]$ git fetch linus
remote: Counting objects: 795, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (481/481), done.
remote: Total 795 (delta 477), reused 517 (delta 311)
Receiving objects: 100% (795/795), 1.54 MiB | 660.00 KiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (477/477), done.
 From git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux
3408fef..7a1dcf6  master -> linus/master
  * [new tag] v4.8-rc3   -> v4.8-rc3
[~/linux]$ git log -i -S kdbus
[~/linux]$ git log -i --grep=kdbus

[~/linux]$


Waouh Adam! You appear to know a lot of tricks. I'm very admirative :-)

Didier

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Steve Litt]

On Wed, 24 Aug 2016 11:37:53 +0800
Brad Campbell  wrote:

> On 24/08/16 11:13, Steve Litt wrote:
> > On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
> > Clarke Sideroad  wrote:
> >  
> >> I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
> >> bus1 coming along to replace that.
> >> https://github.com/bus1/bus1
> >> http://www.bus1.org/
> >>
> >> Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of
> >> systemd
> >>
> >> Clarke  
> >
> >
> > DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:
> >
> > ===
> > COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
> > Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
> > AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
> > David Herrmann 
> > Tom Gundersen 
> > ===
> >
> > And from Wikipedia's systemd page:
> >
> > ===
> > Original author(s)  
> > Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
> > Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
> > ===
> >
> > These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
> > bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
> > plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.  
> 
> I'm not worried. Mantra from get-go has been "Don't break userspace".
> If there is a valid use-case for a feature there will be plenty of 
> opposition to it's removal.

[snip]

> If bus1 really has technical merit, can demonstrate it solves real 
> problems and has all its shortcomings addressed there is no reason it 
> shouldn't be integrated into the kernel. They can't then just go and 
> remove netlink to spite non-systemd users. It has an existing
> userspace and other use cases.

Assuming by "they" you mean the Lennart and the Redhats, they already
have an established pattern and practice of breaking user space. If you
mean the kernel developers, they won't be the ones breaking userspace,
but a kernel-included bus1 will act very much like the firmware chips
they put into toner cartridges just so you won't buy competing toner.

We're way past the point of thinking the world is a technocracy.

Edbarx said it best: "attempting to remove systemd from SID is more
like attempting to remove the DNA from living cells expecting them not
to die."

That sounds very much like breaking userspace to me.

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Brad Campbell]

On 24/08/16 11:13, Steve Litt wrote:

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
Clarke Sideroad  wrote:


I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
bus1 coming along to replace that.
https://github.com/bus1/bus1
http://www.bus1.org/

Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of systemd

Clarke



DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:

===
COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
David Herrmann 
Tom Gundersen 
===

And from Wikipedia's systemd page:

===
Original author(s)  
Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
===

These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.


I'm not worried. Mantra from get-go has been "Don't break userspace". If 
there is a valid use-case for a feature there will be plenty of 
opposition to it's removal.



What is the best way of getting the word out?


I wouldn't worry. You are not giving anyone involved in kernel 
development enough credit if you honestly believe this will fly under 
the radar and people won't notice.


Banging drums and putting forth objections based on some names and 
conjecture will simply get you roundly ridiculed and then ignored by 
those that actually matter. kdbus was not rejected on politics, it was 
rejected on technical merit quite validly by those who care. If bus1 
hasn't rectified _all_ of those objections and can demonstrate a real 
requirement then it won't get past the gate.


The mistake with kdbus was it was a shit design with the sole purpose of 
papering over existing shit design in dbus user space, and because the 
systemd folk have Greg KH on board they assumed they'd just be able to 
slip more shit into the kernel without question. People who actually 
knew better stepped up and nak'd it on technical grounds.


If bus1 really has technical merit, can demonstrate it solves real 
problems and has all its shortcomings addressed there is no reason it 
shouldn't be integrated into the kernel. They can't then just go and 
remove netlink to spite non-systemd users. It has an existing userspace 
and other use cases.



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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 21:47:41 -0400
Clarke Sideroad  wrote:

> I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is
> bus1 coming along to replace that.
> https://github.com/bus1/bus1
> http://www.bus1.org/
> 
> Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of systemd
> 
> Clarke


DANGER Will Robinson. From the COPYING document:

===
COPYRIGHT: (ordered alphabetically)
Copyright (C) 2014-2015 Red Hat, Inc.
AUTHORS: (ordered alphabetically)
David Herrmann 
Tom Gundersen 
===

And from Wikipedia's systemd page:

===
Original author(s)  
Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald
Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen and David Herrmann
===

These saboteurs just won't quit. It's our job to get out the word so
bus1 fares no better than kdbus, because Lennart bragged about his
plans when he gets the kernel to enforce use of systemd.

What is the best way of getting the word out?

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Steve Litt]

On Tue, 23 Aug 2016 23:01:20 + (UTC)
Go Linux  wrote:

> On Tue, 8/23/16, Steve Litt  wrote:

> >> I agree that relying on anything connected to udev will likely not
> >> be sustainable in the long term.  I was reminded of this just
> >> today in a private discussion I'm having with someone over at
> >> FDN . . . yes, I still hang out there to advocate for non-systemd
> >> Linux.  S/he posted this link which finally pushed them over the
> >> edge and away from the path that Debian has taken:
> >>
> >> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
> >>   
> > By the way, when did Linux OK kdbus?
> > 
> > SteveT
> >   
> 
> 
> I don't think they have.  That was Lennart's wishful thinking.
> Wasn't it around that time that Kay Sievers tried and Linus boxed him
> hard upside the head and sent him packing?  
> 
> golinux

Yes, I soon after noticed that this was from 2014, before Linus read
them the rules of the road, so then I realized this is merely an
indication of their attitude and intentions rather than an imminent
existential threat.

Lennart really is in love with himself. I thought it was just a summer
thing.

SteveT

Steve Litt
August 2016 featured book: Manager's Guide to Technical Troubleshooting
  Brand new, second edition
http://www.troubleshooters.com/mgr
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Clarke Sideroad]

I think kdbus is dead due to the bad press, but I believe there is bus1 
coming along to replace that.

https://github.com/bus1/bus1
http://www.bus1.org/

Some familiar names, but possibly not directly part of systemd

Clarke
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Adam Borowski]

On Tue, Aug 23, 2016 at 06:10:12PM -0400, Steve Litt wrote:
> > https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
> 
> By the way, when did Linux OK kdbus?

[~/linux]$ git fetch linus
remote: Counting objects: 795, done.
remote: Compressing objects: 100% (481/481), done.
remote: Total 795 (delta 477), reused 517 (delta 311)
Receiving objects: 100% (795/795), 1.54 MiB | 660.00 KiB/s, done.
Resolving deltas: 100% (477/477), done.
From git://git.kernel.org/pub/scm/linux/kernel/git/torvalds/linux
   3408fef..7a1dcf6  master -> linus/master
 * [new tag] v4.8-rc3   -> v4.8-rc3
[~/linux]$ git log -i -S kdbus
[~/linux]$ git log -i --grep=kdbus

[~/linux]$

Not yet, apparently.

And he had lots of unflattering words about it in the past.  I don't follow
main LKML so I don't know how far Kay and co are from addressing Linus'
concerns, though.

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Go Linux]

On Tue, 8/23/16, Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Tuesday, August 23, 2016, 5:10 PM
 
>> On Sun, 8/21/16, Daniel Reurich <dan...@centurion.net.nz> wrote:
>>
>>  Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
>>  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>>  Date: Sunday, August 21, 2016, 3:08 PM
>> >>
>> >> He guys,
>> >>
>> >> I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG
>> >> list for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost
>> >> been no activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I
>> >> tested eudev on a separate partition and that seems to work quite
>> >> well. 
>> >
>> > You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and
>> > making it installable.
>> >   
>> >>
>> >> I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
>> >> to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change
>> >> is two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the
>> >> wheel IMHO. And as there has been no response from the original
>> >> vdev author, I think it's better to package eudev for Devuan and
>> >> to make it available for Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is
>> >> 3.2. 
>> >
>> > Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
>> > hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes
>> > and bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then
>> > vdev because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with
>> > udev and not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.
>> > At the end of the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally
>> > better the eudev, but still far to closely coupled with systemd to
>> > be useful in the medium to long term.
>> >
>> > With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others
>> > would pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around
>> > packaging it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's
>> > a dead project whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie
>> > of systemd-udev as a better and only option.  It's not better, and
>> > it's not the only option either.
>> >
>> > Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an
>> > option in Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any
>> > attempt to derail alternatives such as vdev - unless those
>> > alternative are demonstrably built on the same flawed design
>> > principles as systemd.
>> >
>> > Daniel.
>> > 
>>
>> 
>>
>> I agree that relying on anything connected to udev will likely not be
>> sustainable in the long term.  I was reminded of this just today in a
>> private discussion I'm having with someone over at FDN . . . yes, I
>> still hang out there to advocate for non-systemd Linux.  S/he posted
>> this link which finally pushed them over the edge and away from the
>> path that Debian has taken:
>>
>> https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html
>> 
> By the way, when did Linux OK kdbus?
> 
> SteveT
> 


I don't think they have.  That was Lennart's wishful thinking.   Wasn't it 
around that time that Kay Sievers tried and Linus boxed him hard upside the 
head and sent him packing?  

golinux

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Nate Bargmann]

Yup, one distribution (he signed with "Red Hat" so was presumably
speaking on their behalf) being dictatorial toward the rest.  I don't
recall that being the foundation the Linux Community was built on when I
discovered it 20 years ago.

- Nate

(Obsolete greybeard)

((But I don't have a beard.))

(((And it wouldn't be grey!)))

-- 

"The optimist proclaims that we live in the best of all
possible worlds.  The pessimist fears this is true."

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Go Linux]

On Sun, 8/21/16, Daniel Reurich <dan...@centurion.net.nz> wrote:

 Subject: Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]
 To: dng@lists.dyne.org
 Date: Sunday, August 21, 2016, 3:08 PM
>>
>> He guys,
>>
>> I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG list
>> for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost been no
>> activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I tested eudev on
>> a separate partition and that seems to work quite well.
> 
> You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and making
> it installable.
> 
>>
>> I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
>> to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change is
>> two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the wheel IMHO.
>> And as there has been no response from the original vdev author, I think
>> it's better to package eudev for Devuan and to make it available for
>> Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is 3.2.
> 
> Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
> hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes and
> bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then vdev
> because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with udev and
> not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.  At the end of
> the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally better the eudev, but
> still far to closely coupled with systemd to be useful in the medium to
> long term.
> 
> With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others would
> pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around packaging
> it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's a dead project
> whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie of systemd-udev as a
> better and only option.  It's not better, and it's not the only option
> either.
> 
> Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an option in
> Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any attempt to derail
> alternatives such as vdev - unless those alternative are demonstrably
> built on the same flawed design principles as systemd.
> 
> Daniel.
>



I agree that relying on anything connected to udev will likely not be 
sustainable in the long term.  I was reminded of this just today in a private 
discussion I'm having with someone over at FDN . . . yes, I still hang out 
there to advocate for non-systemd Linux.  S/he posted this link which finally 
pushed them over the edge and away from the path that Debian has taken:

https://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/systemd-devel/2014-May/019657.html

I remember that from the time it was written and heated discussions were 
swirling on FDN and debian-user.  Let it be a reminder to all of you also.

Now that I finally have qemu up and running (thanks to fsmithred), I'll be 
happy to test any vdev isos from aitor and hope that many of you will do the 
same.  It's time to buckle down and get serious . . . 

golinux 
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Ralph Ronnquist]

richard lucassen wrote on 23/08/16 05:38:

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 20:17:11 +1000
Ralph Ronnquist  wrote:


And with "freedom of choice" in mind: indeed, it would be nice if
eudev would be available anyway, whether vdev will be continued or
not.


As far as I could tell, vdev is so almost ready it'd be sad to turn
sideways, and as it stands, I think I'd like to invest some of my TV
time towards pushing it these final few metres. Though I'm not sure
what the due process would be; I'm rather new to this arena. Perhaps
someone can drop me a line of advice on that.


I'm not against vdev, not al all, but what if the kernel changes and
vdev has to be adapted? Who's going to do that job?

What is happening now is that we're going to package an orphaned
project. I don't think that is a good idea...


I have the luxury of having no background here, and I don't mind 
particularly which way it goes. But I very much would like to see those 
official Devuan installation iso-s without systemd-udev (and without 
netinstall) being available; so much, I'd let go of some of my quality 
time with the TV ads, if it can be a help.


I've learnt enough about vdev to be able to envision its path from here 
to being in the package set, with merely the two hurdles of a) sorting 
out the initram building step of the installation procedure, and b) 
preparing adequate man pages and descriptions. Thus, it primarily needs 
a package maintainer rather than upstream developer right now. The 
effort seems to be in the order of 5-10 man days, which on an 8h/w input 
would be 5-10 weeks.


I don't know the state of an eudev option; I guess it wouldn't be 
unsystemd/devian-eudev.


I suppose there's also someone making the choice of which of these 
options would be the default option used in an installation.


Ralph.
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Ralph Ronnquist]

richard lucassen wrote on 22/08/16 19:34:

...
I agree, but unfortunately nobody has the time and the skills to pick up
vdev and to continue its development. I have neither the time, nor the
skills unfortunately, otherwise I would certainly have participated in
the project. For the moment Devuan is still equipped with udev-systemd,
so Devuan is very very dependent on the systemd guys. Just something
nobody wants here.

And with "freedom of choice" in mind: indeed, it would be nice if eudev
would be available anyway, whether vdev will be continued or not.


As far as I could tell, vdev is so almost ready it'd be sad to turn 
sideways, and as it stands, I think I'd like to invest some of my TV 
time towards pushing it these final few metres. Though I'm not sure what 
the due process would be; I'm rather new to this arena. Perhaps someone 
can drop me a line of advice on that.

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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[richard lucassen]

On Mon, 22 Aug 2016 08:08:05 +1200
Daniel Reurich  wrote:

> > I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG
> > list for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost
> > been no activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I
> > tested eudev on a separate partition and that seems to work quite
> > well.
> 
> You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and
> making it installable.

I still encounter problems. When running a kernel without initramfs one
or another way vdev refuses to start because /var/log/vdev is not
writable. The only way to make it start is to use /dev/null as logfile
and restart it in rc.local.
 
> > I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
> > to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change
> > is two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the
> > wheel IMHO. And as there has been no response from the original
> > vdev author, I think it's better to package eudev for Devuan and to
> > make it available for Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is 3.2.
> 
> Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
> hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes and
> bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then vdev
> because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with udev
> and not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.  At the
> end of the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally better the
> eudev, but still far to closely coupled with systemd to be useful in
> the medium to long term.

That is some or other form of FUD. I hear these "it's too
dependent of systemd" arguments quite often here, but I don't think the
Gentoo folks would have used eudev if they were fearing the same. Devuan
is 99% Debian, that is even more a big threat if you consider the
systemd imperialisation.

> With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others would
> pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around packaging
> it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's a dead
> project whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie of
> systemd-udev as a better and only option.  It's not better, and it's
> not the only option either.

No, but I fear vdev is stillborn. It's an orphaned project for the
moment. Don't get me wrong, I'd rather run vdev than another device
manager. The thing is: we may be able package it and to run it in
Jessie (as we tried last week), but will vdev still work in a year or so
if there's no development of vdev itself?

> Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an option
> in Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any attempt to
> derail alternatives such as vdev - unless those alternative are
> demonstrably built on the same flawed design principles as systemd.

I agree, but unfortunately nobody has the time and the skills to pick up
vdev and to continue its development. I have neither the time, nor the
skills unfortunately, otherwise I would certainly have participated in
the project. For the moment Devuan is still equipped with udev-systemd,
so Devuan is very very dependent on the systemd guys. Just something
nobody wants here.

And with "freedom of choice" in mind: indeed, it would be nice if eudev
would be available anyway, whether vdev will be continued or not.

R.

-- 
richard lucassen
http://contact.xaq.nl/
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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[Daniel Reurich]

> 
> He guys,
> 
> I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG list
> for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost been no
> activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I tested eudev on
> a separate partition and that seems to work quite well.

You are mistaken, there has been lots of activity around vdev and making
it installable.
> 
> I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
> to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change is
> two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the wheel IMHO.
> And as there has been no response from the original vdev author, I think
> it's better to package eudev for Devuan and to make it available for
> Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is 3.2.

Well quite frankly you don't get to make that call.  Eudev is just a
hack that from what I gather is isolating the systemd-udev changes and
bringing them in to eudev.  IMHO that is less sustainable then vdev
because it relies on developers from systemd to play nice with udev and
not deprecate features that don't serve systemd's needs.  At the end of
the day, I consider eudev as at best marginally better the eudev, but
still far to closely coupled with systemd to be useful in the medium to
long term.

With regards to vdev, I'm sure if Jude didn't come back, others would
pick up his work and progress it, as is happening now around packaging
it.  I think it rather disingenuous of you to imply it's a dead project
whilst claiming that eudev, the re-animated zombie of systemd-udev as a
better and only option.  It's not better, and it's not the only option
either.

Whilst I respect the work to package eudev and having it as an option in
Devuan, I will personally very loudly push back on any attempt to derail
alternatives such as vdev - unless those alternative are demonstrably
built on the same flawed design principles as systemd.

Daniel.



-- 
Daniel Reurich
Centurion Computer Technology (2005) Ltd.
021 797 722



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Re: [DNG] eudev [was: vdev]

[richard lucassen]

On Fri, 12 Aug 2016 19:06:09 -0400
fsmithred  wrote:

> > ..eudev etc package link?
> 
> These packages were built by David Hare a little over a year ago. They
> appear to work on current devuan. I don't know if he plans to update
> them.
> 
> add this line to your sources:
> deb http://exegnulinux.net/nosystemd/ experimental main
> 
> Install this key
> http://exegnulinux.net/nosystemd/pool/main/e/exegnu-archive-keyring/exegnu-archive-keyring_0.0.1_all.deb
> 
> apt-get update
> apt-get install eudev (seems to install the libraries)
> apt-get -t experimental install udev (honest)
> 
> It will rebuild the initrd.
> 
> Reboot.
> 
> David also put together an experimental live iso of refracta with
> eudev. I recently made a live-usb for a friend with this iso when her
> hard drive died, and she used it for a few weeks without any
> complaints.
> 
> http://exegnulinux.net/refracta/iso/eudev/

He guys,

I've been at work for a week or so and today I looked at the DNG list
for the latest activities around vdev, but there has almost been no
activity on vdev as far as I can see. OTOH, last week I tested eudev on
a separate partition and that seems to work quite well.

I think it might be a good idea to leave vdev for what it is and
to switch to eudev. It is moreorless maintained (the latest change is
two weeks ago) and it works well. We should not reinvent the wheel IMHO.
And as there has been no response from the original vdev author, I think
it's better to package eudev for Devuan and to make it available for
Jessie and Ascii. The latest version is 3.2.

Any thoughts on this?

R.

-- 
richard lucassen
http://contact.xaq.nl/
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