Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Drew Jensen]

right you are - I was reading the email alone and not thinking about what
was in the How To doc.

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 11:01 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> I was trying to get clarification about the instructions on pages 11 and
> 12 of Chapter 2 of the Documentation Contributors' Guide.  The instructions
> are clear. It is the rationale behind them that I am trying to understand.
>
> On 11/12/2018 10:06 PM, Drew Jensen wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be
> asking and to be honest I am totally confused.
>
> Here is what I think you are looking for.
>
> You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I suppose
> is us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we opened the
> dialog box.
>
> Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I
> didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select all
> the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another space
> character and do it all over again and again.
>
> Is that it?
>
> On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:
>
>> HI Milos,
>>
>> Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
>> documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue
>> you are facing.
>>
>> To help me understand this better, I have some questions:
>>
>> Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns
>> in the index?
>>
>> What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?
>>
>> It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
>> different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or
>> phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?
>>
>> The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before
>> or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
>> index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog,
>> it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
>> seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
>> know for sure that it is still a problem?
>>
>> I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in
>> translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
>> their own documentation while others start with the English version. I
>> don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
>> changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I
>> don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
>> extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?
>>
>> Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.
>>
>> Cathy
>>
>> On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
>> > Dear Cathy,
>> >
>> > I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
>> > surround words or phrases".
>> >
>> > The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
>> > singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
>> > different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
>> >
>> > In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
>> > "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
>> > use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
>> > case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
>> > (singular nominative) one.
>> >
>> > Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
>> > to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
>> > create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
>> > unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
>> >
>> > LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
>> > entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
>> > field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
>> > something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
>> > to a neighboring word.
>> >
>> > Milos
>> >
>> >
>> > On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>> >> Hi All,
>> >>
>> >> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
>> >> that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
>> >> it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
>> >>
>> >> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
>> >> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
>> >> entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
>> >> to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
>> >> phrases to be included in the index."
>> >>
>> >> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
>> >> words or phrases? How does this help the translators?
>> >>
>> >> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
>> >> phrase to add to the index or 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

I was trying to get clarification about the instructions on pages 11 and 
12 of Chapter 2 of the Documentation Contributors' Guide. The 
instructions are clear. It is the rationale behind them that I am trying 
to understand.



On 11/12/2018 10:06 PM, Drew Jensen wrote:

Hi,

Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be 
asking and to be honest I am totally confused.


Here is what I think you are looking for.

You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I 
suppose is us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we 
opened the dialog box.


Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I 
didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select 
all the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another 
space character and do it all over again and again.


Is that it?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley > wrote:


HI Milos,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the
issue
you are facing.

To help me understand this better, I have some questions:

Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of
nouns
in the index?

What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?

It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
different result than inserting the cursor before or after the
word or
phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?

The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor
before
or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index
dialog,
it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
know for sure that it is still a problem?

I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is
involved in
translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
their own documentation while others start with the English
version. I
don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content.
However, I
don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes
for you?

Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.

Cathy

On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
> Dear Cathy,
>
> I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
> surround words or phrases".
>
> The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
> singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
> different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
>
> In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
> "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we
need to
> use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in
that
> case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
> (singular nominative) one.
>
> Example: There is an index entry "document" with three
instances. I need
> to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These
will
> create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
> unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
>
> LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the
Index
> entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it
the Entry
> field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to
enter
> something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the
entry
> to a neighboring word.
>
> Milos
>
>
> On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
>> Hi All,
>>
>> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
>> that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to
create
>> it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
>>
>> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the
guidelines
>> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
>> entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we
need
>> to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
>> phrases to be included in the index."
>>
>> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
>> words or phrases? How does this help the translators?
>>
>> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
>> phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Draft Proposal for a 6.x Guides Template

[Cathy Crumbley]

Hi Dave,

Your revision of the template is quite helpful. Some of my thoughts follow 
below.

Cathy

On 11/5/2018 4:55 PM, Dave Barton wrote:

Another "little" LO Documentation task I set for myself over the weekend
was to draft a proposal for a template for the 6.x series guides, which
I have now completed and uploaded to:
https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/f/81381

Basically my draft is only an adaptation of Jean's original LO6.0
template. My draft is liberally scattered with comments, some in
response to Jean's original comments.

So what changes are proposed? The  main points are:

   * The question of image anchoring within a frame remains open. It may
 be that we have a need for 2 different anchors for electronically
 published chapters/guides and another for (Lulu) paper printed guides.


We should agree on how to handle this. I suggest talking about this Wednesday.



   * Wherever possible I have used "Document Properties" and other fields
 to automate the updating of documents.

   * In 2 of Jean's original comments, she makes valid recommendations to
 have additional character styles (LOMenu Path and LOKeystroke) for
 the possible requirement of style changes in future guides. I
 propose removing these additional styles because our documentation
 revision time frame does not really justify these extra styles and
 they only serve to complicate guide style formatting and confuse
 contributors as to when and which style to use. For a little
 simplification, I am proposing these character styles be removed and
 the identical default "*Strong Emphasis*" and "/Emphasis/" styles be
 used instead.


I wonder about eliminating the Keystroke and MenuPath styles. This is for two 
reasons:

1. While you are concerned about adding those styles, the guides are
   already using them. My understanding is that AltSearch does not find
   character styles, so changing those styles could be time consuming.
2. As I believe Jean has mentioned, eliminating these two character
   styles (by replacing them with Emphasis and Strong Emphasis, which
   it sounds like have the same properties) prevents them from being
   used in a future redesign.

Perhaps I don't understand well enough why you propose eliminating these 
styles. Do you see clear benefits to reducing the number of styles?


   * Our current guides give little information to the reader about the
 content/layout of the chapter/guide, So I have inserted a new
 section, which includes macOS/other OS key equivalents, moving it
 fro the "Copyright" page. Here I leave it to contributors to decide
 what Information might be most useful to readers in understanding
 what the chapter content/layout provides, although it might be that
 we could create some kind of boilerplate outline to be used.


I imagine that most people look at the guides for help with particular issues. 
From looking at the table of contents, they can see what is contained in each 
chapter.
Thus, I am not sure that there is a need for more introductory information at 
the beginning of a chapter.

  * For the benefit of seriously color vision impaired people (like
myself) I have changed the background and text color of the
"Caution" heading. To you color vision perfect folks who find this
change glaringly obnoxious, I say do what I have to do every day,
"/live with it/".

I think the Caution heading looks fine.

by the way, when I initially downloaded the document from Nextcloud, the orange 
background of the Caution banner was not visible, so the yellow text was not 
readable. I just tried it again and the orange banner is visible. Perhaps this 
was a LOO glitch.

 * Jean's original comment proposed increasing the Numbering styles
beyond 3 levels. Checking through previous guides I can find no
evidence of where we have needed or used numbering levels beyond
level 3. My proposal is not to add more levels.

I am not clear about what Jean was referring to when she indicated that list 
numbering should be revised.

Where possible, I have cut back on the numbering/bullet levels, as I think they 
are sometimes not needed and make the text look cluttered. I am not sure that 
there is a need to add more levels.

 * Jean's original comment proposed that we describe various levels for
"Mixed Lists". Again, after checking through previous guides I can
find no evidence of where we have needed or used mixed lists. My
proposal is to not define any "Mixed Lists" styles.

I don’t have a sense of the need. We can always create a style if needed, but 
perhaps Jean knows of some instances where this would be helpful.

 * I have added a comment in reply to Jean's original comment regarding
"Simple Lists" which should be self evident.

I am not clear about the need for this style. Why wouldn't simple bullets be 
used?

 * Likewise, the "Text Body Intro" style might have some value if the
the 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Drew Jensen]

Hi,

Reading along and having Writer open trying to do what you seem to be
asking and to be honest I am totally confused.

Here is what I think you are looking for.

You want me index a space character and give that a tag, which I suppose is
us typing in the word that we didn't just select before we opened the
dialog box.

Assuming that this word is in multiple places in the document, which I
didn't select for the index, i then forego the ability to auto select all
the instances and instead find them by hand, then select another space
character and do it all over again and again.

Is that it?

On Mon, Nov 12, 2018 at 8:07 PM Cathy Crumbley  wrote:

> HI Milos,
>
> Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer
> documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue
> you are facing.
>
> To help me understand this better, I have some questions:
>
> Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns
> in the index?
>
> What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?
>
> It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a
> different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or
> phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?
>
> The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before
> or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the
> index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog,
> it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This
> seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we
> know for sure that it is still a problem?
>
> I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in
> translation. My understanding is that some language translators write
> their own documentation while others start with the English version. I
> don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of
> changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I
> don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what
> extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?
>
> Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.
>
> Cathy
>
> On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:
> > Dear Cathy,
> >
> > I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
> > surround words or phrases".
> >
> > The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
> > singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
> > different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.
> >
> > In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
> > "surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
> > use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
> > case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
> > (singular nominative) one.
> >
> > Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
> > to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
> > create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
> > unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.
> >
> > LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
> > entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
> > field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
> > something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
> > to a neighboring word.
> >
> > Milos
> >
> >
> > On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:
> >> Hi All,
> >>
> >> The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
> >> that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
> >> it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.
> >>
> >> Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
> >> say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
> >> entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
> >> to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
> >> phrases to be included in the index."
> >>
> >> What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
> >> words or phrases? How does this help the translators?
> >>
> >> Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
> >> phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the beginning of the
> >> word."
> >>
> >> This appears to contradict the previous paragraph, where it says to
> >> not highlight entire words and phrases. What should the guideline be?
> >>
> >> Two lines later, it says: "DO NOT simply accept the word or phrase
> >> shown in the Entry box. Instead, first change the word or phrase in
> >> some way, for example by typing a blank space at the end or (if
> >> appropriate) changing an initial uppercase letter to lowercase.
> >>
> >> This requirement seems puzzling. I am sure that 

Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Indexing Clarification Needed

[Cathy Crumbley]

HI Milos,

Thank you for taking the time to explain.  For editing Writer 
documentation, I needed to learn about Hunspell, so understand the issue 
you are facing.


To help me understand this better, I have some questions:

Is it correct that you want only the singular nominative form of nouns 
in the index?


What do you mean by "embedded" index entries?

It sounds like surrounding a word or phrase to save it creates a 
different result than inserting the cursor before or after the word or 
phrase. But what is the difference in what is saved?


The few times I have made an index entry by inserting the cursor before 
or after a word (with no space between) only that word appears in the 
index. Since we need to write the exact index entry in the index dialog, 
it is puzzling that Writer would still grab neighboring words. This 
seems like a bug. Do you know if it has been reported as a bug? Do we 
know for sure that it is still a problem?


I think it would be helpful to understand more about what is involved in 
translation. My understanding is that some language translators write 
their own documentation while others start with the English version. I 
don't have a clear sense of how that works. I tend to make a lot of 
changes, including sharpening text and rearranging content. However, I 
don't have a good sense of what this means for translators. To what 
extent does it matter if there are many as opposed to few changes for you?


Thank you for whatever clarification and information you can provide.

Cathy

On 11/9/2018 11:10 AM, Milos Sramek wrote:

Dear Cathy,

I am the author of the request to not to "create index entries that
surround words or phrases".

The rationale is this: In English nouns have just two forms, one for
singular and one for plural. In languages with inflection it is
different, in Slovak we have up to 10 forms of a single word.

In the case of "index entries that surround words or phrases" the
"surrounded word or phrase" goes directly in the index. As we need to
use in translation an appropriate inflected form of the word, in that
case the inflected one will create an index entry, and not the basic
(singular nominative) one.

Example: There is an index entry "document" with three instances. I need
to translate them as "dokument", "dokumentom" "dokumenty". These will
create three independent entrees in the translated index, which is
unacceptable. Therefore, we need those "embedded" index entries.

LO somehow automates insertion of index term - when opening the Index
entry dialog it highlights the nearest word and fills with it the Entry
field. In order to avoid these "surrounded words", one needs to enter
something else (maybe the suggested space after) or to place the entry
to a neighboring word.

Milos


On 11/8/18 6:18 AM, Cathy Crumbley wrote:

Hi All,

The Contributor Guide is extremely helpful and I deeply appreciate
that someone --presumably Jean--invested the time and energy to create
it. I would just like a little bit of clarification.

Chapter 2 provides guidelines for indexing. On page 11, the guidelines
say: "The translators have requested that we do NOT create index
entries that surround words or phrases in the text. Instead, we need
to create entries that are embedded before or after the words or
phrases to be included in the index."

What is the rationale for not creating index entries that surround
words or phrases? How does this help the translators?

Then, in the next paragraph, it says "Either highlight the word or
phrase to add to the index or place the cursor at the beginning of the
word."

This appears to contradict the previous paragraph, where it says to
not highlight entire words and phrases. What should the guideline be?

Two lines later, it says: "DO NOT simply accept the word or phrase
shown in the Entry box. Instead, first change the word or phrase in
some way, for example by typing a blank space at the end or (if
appropriate) changing an initial uppercase letter to lowercase.

This requirement seems puzzling. I am sure that there are good reasons
for changing the word or phrase and would appreciate some insight.

Thanks for whatever clarification people can provide.

Cathy




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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Changes and fixes in Nextcloud for ODFAuthors

[Luca Daghino @ Libero]

Il 05/11/2018 17:21, Olivier Hallot ha scritto:

Hello fellow Authors

This weekend we worked to fix the NextCloud service for Authors. The
issues were a few and all were fixed.

* The previous ODFAuthor share was a folder under my user ID and thus
was limited in size by the default TDF member storage. We created a
group folder where the limits were increased to a workable condition and
similar to the old Plone size.

* The existing files were moved from my share to the group folder (now I
can breathe !).

* Dave Barton is populating the new share with the relevant files picked
in the old Plone, reproducing the folder structure of the old file storage.

* As decided in the last doc team meeting, the ODFAuthors share was
renamed "LibreOffice Documentation" .

* Authors interested to join and access LibreOffice Documentation share
are invited to ask in this mailing list. I will assign their login to
the "odfauthors"  group.

* we would like to invite other language communities to join the new
LibreOffice Documentation share in NextCloud, as Brazilians, Germans and
Turks already did.

* Everybody is invited to participate in our documentation team meeting
and every Wednesday at 19:00 (Berlin time)

Kind regards


Hello Olivier,

I created the other day a folder for the Italian community in the new 
NextCloud space. Is it possible for you (or infra members) to move 
everything in odfauthors/LibreOffice/Italian to this new folder in 
nextcloud, maybe using scripts?


Or do we have to move all files manually?

And... while trying to login to NextCloud right now, I'm forwarded to 
this page:


https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/apps/user_saml/saml/acs

where I see nothing but 3 buttons on the left (one is JSON)

Thank you! :)


--
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 - - - - - - - -
Icq/Licq/Gaim #175451007
Debian Powered Linux Registered User #310800 at http://counter.li.org
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http://www.retenergie.it - coop di produttori e utilizzatori di energia da 
fonti rinnovabili
tad evaarthamaatra-nirbhaasaM svaruupa-shuunyam iva samaadhiH
Sanskrit - Realize it's the common language ;-)


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