Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[C]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 6:53 PM, ptoye  wrote:
> An even higher barrier is that my system is based on Windows, and most of the 
> tools used here are Unix-based - you mention grep. There are almost certainly 
> Windows equivalents, but they take a bit of finding and don't always work too 
> well.

Just a quick comment on this part of the discussion... WinGrep
http://www.wingrep.com/ (distributed as Shareware) is a nice Windows
equivalent to the Linux/Unix commandline grep that was discussed here.
it works quite well and returns the same kind of results as grep in
Linux/Unix.


Clayton

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Christian Lohmaier]

Hi Sophie, *.

On Wed, Nov 25, 2015 at 11:52 AM, Sophie  wrote:
> Hi Kendy, all,
> Le 25/11/2015 11:09, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
>>
>> #. ZxQeC
>> #: main.xhp
>> msgctxt ""
>> "main.xhp\n"
>> […changed to…]
>> #. ZxQeC
>> #: -Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp
>> msgctxt ""
>> "-Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp\n"
>>
>> Sorry for not being precise in my question previously, but first I
>> needed to understand how exactly the .xhp's map to the .po files :-)
>>
>> Does this work / is this change possible without much hassle?
> this result on changing the msgctxt, so all the files will be changed.

But this is a change that can be easily scripted, have a map oldname →
newname and then  run a script over the files replacing the filename.
Much easier to do than the help-ID changes in the past, since you
don't need to manually account for "shifts" in the changes.

> We should also check with Dwayne if it's not used in some
> indexation/search processes on Pootle.

indexes can be recreated, so no hurdle in itself..

ciao
Christian

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Martin,

Martin Srebotnjak píše v Út 24. 11. 2015 v 21:57 +0100:

> I am not sure we are talking about the same thing or that I understand
> this correctly.
> 
> They change the names of the help files (i.e. calc/01.po is now
> calcsfirsthelpfilewithhelpaboutfunctions.po). For the migration
> process they become new po files.

Nope, did not intend to change the directories, so I was happy to hear
that the .po files are named by the directories.

So as a result, calc/01.po will still stay calc/01.po; only the
filenames inside would change - eg. in:

#. ZxQeC
#: main.xhp
msgctxt ""
"main.xhp\n"
"tit\n"
"help.text"
msgid "Welcome to the $[officename] Calc Help"
msgstr "Vítejte v nápovědě k $[officename] Calc"

only the 'main.xhp' would change to 
'-Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp' resulting in

#. ZxQeC
#: -Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp
msgctxt ""
"-Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp\n"
"tit\n"
"help.text"
msgid "Welcome to the $[officename] Calc Help"
msgstr "Vítejte v nápovědě k $[officename] Calc"

Sorry for not being precise in my question previously, but first I
needed to understand how exactly the .xhp's map to the .po files :-)

Does this work / is this change possible without much hassle?

Thank you again,
Kendy


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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Sophie]

Hi Kendy, all,
Le 25/11/2015 11:09, Jan Holesovsky a écrit :
> Hi Martin,
> 
> Martin Srebotnjak píše v Út 24. 11. 2015 v 21:57 +0100:
> 
>> I am not sure we are talking about the same thing or that I understand
>> this correctly.
>>
>> They change the names of the help files (i.e. calc/01.po is now
>> calcsfirsthelpfilewithhelpaboutfunctions.po). For the migration
>> process they become new po files.
> 
> Nope, did not intend to change the directories, so I was happy to hear
> that the .po files are named by the directories.
> 
> So as a result, calc/01.po will still stay calc/01.po; only the
> filenames inside would change - eg. in:
> 
> #. ZxQeC
> #: main.xhp
> msgctxt ""
> "main.xhp\n"
> "tit\n"
> "help.text"
> msgid "Welcome to the $[officename] Calc Help"
> msgstr "Vítejte v nápovědě k $[officename] Calc"
> 
> only the 'main.xhp' would change to 
> '-Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp' resulting in
> 
> #. ZxQeC
> #: -Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp
> msgctxt ""
> "-Welcome-to-the-officename-Calc-Help.xhp\n"
> "tit\n"
> "help.text"
> msgid "Welcome to the $[officename] Calc Help"
> msgstr "Vítejte v nápovědě k $[officename] Calc"
> 
> Sorry for not being precise in my question previously, but first I
> needed to understand how exactly the .xhp's map to the .po files :-)
> 
> Does this work / is this change possible without much hassle?
this result on changing the msgctxt, so all the files will be changed.
We should also check with Dwayne if it's not used in some
indexation/search processes on Pootle.

Why do we want to change if the main_transform.xsl file is working now
correctly and allow an easy search? I agree that the file name remains
not easy to understand, but if a tool solve that, where is the issue
then? It seems really less invasive than changing the name and a low
curve to learn how to access a given file for new comers.

There is another file we were using to search the help, it's
allfiles.tree, that could be used to list all files in a tree form. I
didn't test if it still work or not, I think I sent both files to you
Kendy, but I'll try to find the time to test it today.

Cheers
Sophie

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GSM: +33683901545
IRC: sophi
Co-founder - Release coordinator
The Document Foundation

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Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Jan Holesovsky]

Hi Sophie,

Sophie píše v St 25. 11. 2015 v 11:52 +0100:

> Why do we want to change if the main_transform.xsl file is working now
> correctly and allow an easy search? I agree that the file name remains
> not easy to understand, but if a tool solve that, where is the issue
> then?

From my point of view, it is always good to fix root cause, then to try
to pile workaround on top of each other to achieve something that would
be possible by fixing the initial problem in the first place.

Additional file means additional complexity, and additional thing to
explain to the newcomers - so that's why I am interested in fixing this
by the rename.

But again - for the moment I'm only researching what are the
consequences & if this is acceptable by the l10n community :-)

All the best,
Kendy


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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Sveinn,

I am not sure we are talking about the same thing or that I understand
this correctly.

They change the names of the help files (i.e. calc/01.po is now
calcsfirsthelpfilewithhelpaboutfunctions.po). For the migration
process they become new po files.

The pomigrate2 script takes the translation memory, but it was
generated from the old files (like the old calc/01.po file) with
different msgctx and comment fields etc. So even if all strings in the
renamed file are actually the same as in 01.po , they will become
fuzzy strings, right?

So for calc/01.po that is like 8000 strings, fuzzy strings. And since
we translators will not know if there is at least one changed or
updated string in there, we will have to go manually through all those
8000 strings, reading and checking and ultimately 8000 times clicking
it is not a fuzzy but an ok translation.

Well, if that is done in all help files, it means 26000 reviewed
strings with 26000 clicks that these strings are just fine.

Am I wrong?

100 localization teams doing those 26000 clicks would mean like
2.600.000 reviewed strings ...

I hope I am wrong.

Lp, m.

2015-11-24 19:31 GMT+01:00 Sveinn í Felli :
> Þann þri 24.nóv 2015 15:35, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:
>>
>> 2015-11-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :
>>>
>>> actually makes me think that only a small fraction of translators would
>>> be actually disrupted, because for those using Pootle, it would be
>>> transparent.  So did I misunderstand?
>>>
>>
>> Probably Slovenian would be actually disrupted, and other "offline"
>> localization teams, I do not have a list.
>>
>> Lp, m.
>>
>
> Martin, I prefer translating offline, and honestly I fail to see too much of
> a problem if the helpfiles were renamed from 01.po, 02.po to something more
> meaningful. And if comments and msgctx fields are to be changed - why not...
>
>
> (I do regenerate my translation memories regularly)
>
> Sveinn í Felli

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Martin Srebotnjak]

2015-11-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :
> actually makes me think that only a small fraction of translators would
> be actually disrupted, because for those using Pootle, it would be
> transparent.  So did I misunderstand?
>

Probably Slovenian would be actually disrupted, and other "offline"
localization teams, I do not have a list.

Lp, m.

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Sveinn í Felli]

Þann þri 24.nóv 2015 15:35, skrifaði Martin Srebotnjak:

2015-11-24 16:30 GMT+01:00 Jan Holesovsky :

actually makes me think that only a small fraction of translators would
be actually disrupted, because for those using Pootle, it would be
transparent.  So did I misunderstand?



Probably Slovenian would be actually disrupted, and other "offline"
localization teams, I do not have a list.

Lp, m.



Martin, I prefer translating offline, and honestly I fail to see too 
much of a problem if the helpfiles were renamed from 01.po, 02.po to 
something more meaningful. And if comments and msgctx fields are to be 
changed - why not...



(I do regenerate my translation memories regularly)

Sveinn í Felli

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[ptoye]

Hi Jan,

I think that you are writing about me. But I should point out that Sophi and 
Regina here were extremely helpful and showed me the main_transform file which 
puts the file name and path at the head of the text. Then I found the file I 
wanted immediately. 

I agree that meaningful file names might help - but in which language? Even US 
and UK English may differ. And I've no idea what the Czech for "query" is!

An even higher barrier is that my system is based on Windows, and most of the 
tools used here are Unix-based - you mention grep. There are almost certainly 
Windows equivalents, but they take a bit of finding and don't always work too 
well.

I appreciate your views, and your support for me, but I have to agree with 
Martin.

Best regards,

Peter
mailto:l...@ptoye.com
www.ptoye.com

-
Tuesday, November 24, 2015, 3:30:23 PM, you wrote:


Hi Martin, 



We have just seen a guy interested in editing help, and this was one of 
his struggles there - that he just couldn't find the help file he needs 
to edit.  Asking him to grep all the main0123.xhp files (and alike) is 
just as nice as telling him "go away, we don't want you" :-( 



-
Peter
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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Andras Timar]

On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:
> Hi Regina, all,
>
> Regina Henschel píše v St 18. 11. 2015 v 21:32 +0100:
>
>> most of the file names are build of numbers and it
>> is hard to identify the relevant file.
>
> That's indeed true :-)
>
> I wonder - would a large scale rename to something more readable (like
> eg. filename constructed from the  tag) be more appreciated by
> people editing help?
>
> L10n people - any blockers from the tooling point of view that hinder
> that, please?  Would it mean that the .po files have to be renamed too,
> and if yes, it is possible to do that somehow automatically?

.po files are named after directories, not after files. In .po files
file names are there in #: comments and in msgctx fields. It is
possible to automatically replace file names in git and in Pootle, but
this can cause disruption for translators who work offline, and
translation memories have to be regenerated.

Regards,
Andras

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[libreoffice-documentation] Re: [libreoffice-l10n] Possible help files rename?

[Martin Srebotnjak]

Please, once more, do not do any "l'art pour l'art"-istic changes that
might cause any kind of trouble to localizers.

There are many more things to invest time and will in first - to write
missing help content, to edit the help content, to make
wiki-served-help fully localizable, to have manuals (getting started
guides) up-to-date etc.

Most localizers localize from Pootle and I am sure that po files there
could be given additional description what part of UI or help they
cover, if really someone feels lost.

Lp, m.

2015-11-24 13:22 GMT+01:00 Andras Timar :
> On Tue, Nov 24, 2015 at 12:09 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:
>> Hi Regina, all,
>>
>> Regina Henschel píše v St 18. 11. 2015 v 21:32 +0100:
>>
>>> most of the file names are build of numbers and it
>>> is hard to identify the relevant file.
>>
>> That's indeed true :-)
>>
>> I wonder - would a large scale rename to something more readable (like
>> eg. filename constructed from the  tag) be more appreciated by
>> people editing help?
>>
>> L10n people - any blockers from the tooling point of view that hinder
>> that, please?  Would it mean that the .po files have to be renamed too,
>> and if yes, it is possible to do that somehow automatically?
>
> .po files are named after directories, not after files. In .po files
> file names are there in #: comments and in msgctx fields. It is
> possible to automatically replace file names in git and in Pootle, but
> this can cause disruption for translators who work offline, and
> translation memories have to be regenerated.
>
> Regards,
> Andras
>
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