Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses
The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Actually I believe they did. Miocene fossil remains of precursors to Equus are found in the Great Plains, as as well as Pleistocene Equus. I seem to recall the evolution of equids was shaped by the Plains changing from woodland savannah to grassland about 15 Ma. The last horse fossils in North America date to about 10-12,000 years ago and they seemed to vanish with the other large mammals, perhaps as a result of human actions. Horses were then reintroduced by Cortez and company and were rapidly adopted by the Plains Indians, becoming an integral part of their culture. One can get one's knickers in a knot trying to figure out whether the horse is indigenous or introduced, invasive or native, feral, alien, or what have you in the Great Plains. One's time is more profitably sent on interesting questions (besides the evolutionary ones) such as whether or when horse populations reach local densities high enough to damage ecosystems, what do we do about it, given that The Great Plains and the rest of the west are not what they were 12,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. David Duffy - Original Message - From: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU All: Ecologically speaking, horses are a true grasslands animal, adaptable to some extent, but not adaptable enough; the Intermountain West and the Southwest have few places truly suitable for horses. Dayton Hyde, who owned a big ranch in southwestern Oregon, moved to the plains to care for wild (feral) horses http://www.daytonohyde.com/ahomeforwildhors.html . This is another good example to illustrate that habitat is not definable by geography; it is defined by the organisms most suited to habitat conditions. The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Their requirements are similar to the indigenous bison, the healthy- protein animal birthright which our alien forefathers (except my grandmother's side) almost killed out for the mess of white- bread and breakfast-cereal pottage we industrially farm today, so they could probably establish viable populations, especially in the absence of enough predators to keep their populations healthy. The feral horses which do survive (many starve, and many are ill- suited to the harsh conditions under which they must struggle to live, their numbers harshly thinned out to a wilder and wilder form by indifferent Nature.) Personally, I love horses. Ecologically, the western US is very poor in suitable habitat, which is almost entirely taken up by human, fenced-off uses, forcing them to live a harsher-than- normal life in marginal habitat ill-suited to their survival. Even though I admire their beauty, grace, and apparent toughness, turning domestic horses loose is a cruel act for most of them. Personally, I love pronghorns too; they are better-adapted to the marginal, semi-arid, and otherwise harsh habitats of the West than horses and cattle (which also are a grasslands animal, not a sagebrush steppe one). WT - Original Message - From: Warren W. Aney a...@coho.net To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses For a good statement and some facts on feral horses and donkeys go The Wildlife Society sites: http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/Feral.Horses.July..2011.pdf http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/policy/feral_horses_1.pdf The most recent release of domestic horses into the wild probably occurred this morning due to someone's inability to feed their stock or sell them to a meat processor. Warren W. Aney Senior Wildlife Ecologist Tigard, Oregon -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) Sent: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011 01:12 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species While we are still on invasive species in the US South Western Regions, what is everyone's opinion about wild horses in the US? They are apparently introduced and became invasive, yet are protected by law. BLM manages them as invasive species, while there is a law suit in the 9th circuit court of Appeals to consider them as native species. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028174.300-are-the-wild- horses-of-the-american-west-native.html http://tdn.com/lifestyles/article_71e93474-92ff-11e0-9d41- 001cc4c002e0.html I always wondered about this issue while I was in NM. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, 濱崎俊秀PhD Alaska Department
Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses
David and Ecolog: Most interesting! I was aware of Eohippus or whatever they call it these days (pretty far back on the evolutionary bush), and other ancestral forms, but thought the fossil evidence faded out about 45 million BCE. I would like to further erode my ignorance by reading Duffy's sources, especially with respect to fossil evidence from the Pleistocene. A little poking around the Internet didn't bring up any original research, and the article in Canadian Geographic didn't cite any sources, alluding to claims that fossils as recent as 1,000 years BP have been found! I was totally ignorant of this! Of course he is correct about the most recent introductions by human invaders. Of course he is correct with respect to the current species, clearly introduced from other continents. With respect to densities and damage to ecosystems, it's perturbations all the way down, ain't it? WT PS: I know knot the condition of other's knickers, but snickerd when I checked--lo and behold, there are none as I figured! - Original Message - From: David C Duffy ddu...@hawaii.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Actually I believe they did. Miocene fossil remains of precursors to Equus are found in the Great Plains, as as well as Pleistocene Equus. I seem to recall the evolution of equids was shaped by the Plains changing from woodland savannah to grassland about 15 Ma. The last horse fossils in North America date to about 10-12,000 years ago and they seemed to vanish with the other large mammals, perhaps as a result of human actions. Horses were then reintroduced by Cortez and company and were rapidly adopted by the Plains Indians, becoming an integral part of their culture. One can get one's knickers in a knot trying to figure out whether the horse is indigenous or introduced, invasive or native, feral, alien, or what have you in the Great Plains. One's time is more profitably sent on interesting questions (besides the evolutionary ones) such as whether or when horse populations reach local densities high enough to damage ecosystems, what do we do about it, given that The Great Plains and the rest of the west are not what they were 12,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. David Duffy - Original Message - From: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU All: Ecologically speaking, horses are a true grasslands animal, adaptable to some extent, but not adaptable enough; the Intermountain West and the Southwest have few places truly suitable for horses. Dayton Hyde, who owned a big ranch in southwestern Oregon, moved to the plains to care for wild (feral) horses http://www.daytonohyde.com/ahomeforwildhors.html . This is another good example to illustrate that habitat is not definable by geography; it is defined by the organisms most suited to habitat conditions. The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Their requirements are similar to the indigenous bison, the healthy- protein animal birthright which our alien forefathers (except my grandmother's side) almost killed out for the mess of white- bread and breakfast-cereal pottage we industrially farm today, so they could probably establish viable populations, especially in the absence of enough predators to keep their populations healthy. The feral horses which do survive (many starve, and many are ill- suited to the harsh conditions under which they must struggle to live, their numbers harshly thinned out to a wilder and wilder form by indifferent Nature.) Personally, I love horses. Ecologically, the western US is very poor in suitable habitat, which is almost entirely taken up by human, fenced-off uses, forcing them to live a harsher-than- normal life in marginal habitat ill-suited to their survival. Even though I admire their beauty, grace, and apparent toughness, turning domestic horses loose is a cruel act for most of them. Personally, I love pronghorns too; they are better-adapted to the marginal, semi-arid, and otherwise harsh habitats of the West than horses and cattle (which also are a grasslands animal, not a sagebrush steppe one). WT - Original Message - From: Warren W. Aney a...@coho.net To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses For a good statement and some facts on feral horses and donkeys go The Wildlife Society sites: http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/Feral.Horses.July..2011.pdf http
Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses
Hello Wayne (and others), If you're looking for original research on Pleistocene horses in North America, check out would papers by RD Guthrie, WW Dalquest, and BJ MacFadden (for starters)-- a quick Google Scholar search of Pleistocene horses will give you a number of sources by these and other authors. There's also this recent paper(http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pbio.0030241) in PLOS on the evolution, systematics, and phylogeography of New World horses, by Weinstock et al. Best wishes, Jacquelyn On 09.14.11, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: David and Ecolog: Most interesting! I was aware of Eohippus or whatever they call it these days (pretty far back on the evolutionary bush), and other ancestral forms, but thought the fossil evidence faded out about 45 million BCE. I would like to further erode my ignorance by reading Duffy's sources, especially with respect to fossil evidence from the Pleistocene. A little poking around the Internet didn't bring up any original research, and the article in Canadian Geographic didn't cite any sources, alluding to claims that fossils as recent as 1,000 years BP have been found! I was totally ignorant of this! Of course he is correct about the most recent introductions by human invaders. Of course he is correct with respect to the current species, clearly introduced from other continents. With respect to densities and damage to ecosystems, it's perturbations all the way down, ain't it? WT PS: I know knot the condition of other's knickers, but snickerd when I checked--lo and behold, there are none as I figured! - Original Message - From: David C Duffy ddu...@hawaii.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Actually I believe they did. Miocene fossil remains of precursors to Equus are found in the Great Plains, as as well as Pleistocene Equus. I seem to recall the evolution of equids was shaped by the Plains changing from woodland savannah to grassland about 15 Ma. The last horse fossils in North America date to about 10-12,000 years ago and they seemed to vanish with the other large mammals, perhaps as a result of human actions. Horses were then reintroduced by Cortez and company and were rapidly adopted by the Plains Indians, becoming an integral part of their culture. One can get one's knickers in a knot trying to figure out whether the horse is indigenous or introduced, invasive or native, feral, alien, or what have you in the Great Plains. One's time is more profitably sent on interesting questions (besides the evolutionary ones) such as whether or when horse populations reach local densities high enough to damage ecosystems, what do we do about it, given that The Great Plains and the rest of the west are not what they were 12,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. David Duffy - Original Message - From: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU All: Ecologically speaking, horses are a true grasslands animal, adaptable to some extent, but not adaptable enough; the Intermountain West and the Southwest have few places truly suitable for horses. Dayton Hyde, who owned a big ranch in southwestern Oregon, moved to the plains to care for wild (feral) horses http://www.daytonohyde.com/ahomeforwildhors.html . This is another good example to illustrate that habitat is not definable by geography; it is defined by the organisms most suited to habitat conditions. The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Their requirements are similar to the indigenous bison, the healthy- protein animal birthright which our alien forefathers (except my grandmother's side) almost killed out for the mess of white- bread and breakfast-cereal pottage we industrially farm today, so they could probably establish viable populations, especially in the absence of enough predators to keep their populations healthy. The feral horses which do survive (many starve, and many are ill- suited to the harsh conditions under which they must struggle to live, their numbers harshly thinned out to a wilder and wilder form by indifferent Nature.) Personally, I love horses. Ecologically, the western US is very poor in suitable habitat, which is almost entirely taken up by human, fenced-off uses, forcing them to live a harsher-than- normal life in marginal habitat ill-suited to their survival. Even though I admire their beauty, grace, and apparent toughness, turning
Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses
Some references on paleo ecology in the Great Plains as an entre to the literature: http://www.pnas.org/content/97/14/7899.full.pdfMiocene ungulates and terrestrial primary productivity: Where have all the browsers gone. by CM Janis et al 2000. http://www.pnas.org/content/97/14/7899.full.pdf Tertiary history of C4 biomass in the Great Plains, USA, by http://geology.gsapubs.org/search?author1=David+L.+Foxsortspec=datesubmit=SubmitDavid L. Fox and http://geology.gsapubs.org/search?author1=Paul+L.+Kochsortspec=datesubmit=SubmitPaul L. Koch. 2003. Geology 31: 809-812. Using ecological niche modeling for quantitative biogeographic analysis: a case study of Miocene and Pliocene Equinae in the Great Plains. by Kaitlin Clare Maguire and Alycia L. Stigall. 2009. Paleobiology 35: 587-611. http://paleobiol.geoscienceworld.org/cgi/content/abstract/35/4/587 For horse evolution, research has an elegant pedigree: Darwin, Owen, and Thomas Huxley (these three in walk on roles), and Joseph Leidy, George Gaylord Simpson, Henry Fairfield Osbourne, and Othniel Charles Marsh as central figures. As is usual in science, things have become more complex over time. David Duffy At 09:41 AM 9/14/2011, you wrote: Hello Wayne (and others), If you're looking for original research on Pleistocene horses in North America, check out would papers by RD Guthrie, WW Dalquest, and BJ MacFadden (for starters)-- a quick Google Scholar search of Pleistocene horses will give you a number of sources by these and other authors. There's also this recent paper(http://www.plosbiology.org/article/info%253Adoi%252F10.1371%252Fjournal.pbio.0030241) in PLOS on the evolution, systematics, and phylogeography of New World horses, by Weinstock et al. Best wishes, Jacquelyn On 09.14.11, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: David and Ecolog: Most interesting! I was aware of Eohippus or whatever they call it these days (pretty far back on the evolutionary bush), and other ancestral forms, but thought the fossil evidence faded out about 45 million BCE. I would like to further erode my ignorance by reading Duffy's sources, especially with respect to fossil evidence from the Pleistocene. A little poking around the Internet didn't bring up any original research, and the article in Canadian Geographic didn't cite any sources, alluding to claims that fossils as recent as 1,000 years BP have been found! I was totally ignorant of this! Of course he is correct about the most recent introductions by human invaders. Of course he is correct with respect to the current species, clearly introduced from other continents. With respect to densities and damage to ecosystems, it's perturbations all the way down, ain't it? WT PS: I know knot the condition of other's knickers, but snickerd when I checked--lo and behold, there are none as I figured! - Original Message - From: David C Duffy ddu...@hawaii.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2011 12:32 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Actually I believe they did. Miocene fossil remains of precursors to Equus are found in the Great Plains, as as well as Pleistocene Equus. I seem to recall the evolution of equids was shaped by the Plains changing from woodland savannah to grassland about 15 Ma. The last horse fossils in North America date to about 10-12,000 years ago and they seemed to vanish with the other large mammals, perhaps as a result of human actions. Horses were then reintroduced by Cortez and company and were rapidly adopted by the Plains Indians, becoming an integral part of their culture. One can get one's knickers in a knot trying to figure out whether the horse is indigenous or introduced, invasive or native, feral, alien, or what have you in the Great Plains. One's time is more profitably sent on interesting questions (besides the evolutionary ones) such as whether or when horse populations reach local densities high enough to damage ecosystems, what do we do about it, given that The Great Plains and the rest of the west are not what they were 12,000 years ago or even 200 years ago. David Duffy - Original Message - From: Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net Date: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 5:45 pm Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU All: Ecologically speaking, horses are a true grasslands animal, adaptable to some extent, but not adaptable enough; the Intermountain West and the Southwest have few places truly suitable for horses. Dayton Hyde, who owned a big ranch in southwestern Oregon, moved to the plains to care for wild (feral) horses http://www.daytonohyde.com/ahomeforwildhors.html . This is another good example
Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses
For a good statement and some facts on feral horses and donkeys go The Wildlife Society sites: http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/Feral.Horses.July.2011.pdf http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/policy/feral_horses_1.pdf The most recent release of domestic horses into the wild probably occurred this morning due to someone's inability to feed their stock or sell them to a meat processor. Warren W. Aney Senior Wildlife Ecologist Tigard, Oregon -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) Sent: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011 01:12 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species While we are still on invasive species in the US South Western Regions, what is everyone's opinion about wild horses in the US? They are apparently introduced and became invasive, yet are protected by law. BLM manages them as invasive species, while there is a law suit in the 9th circuit court of Appeals to consider them as native species. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028174.300-are-the-wild-horses-of-the-american-west-native.html http://tdn.com/lifestyles/article_71e93474-92ff-11e0-9d41-001cc4c002e0.html I always wondered about this issue while I was in NM. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, 濱崎俊秀PhD Alaska Department of Fish and Game: アラスカ州漁業野生動物課 Division of Commercial Fisheries: 商業漁業部 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, AK 99518 Phone: (907)267-2158 Cell: (907)440-9934
Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses
All: Ecologically speaking, horses are a true grasslands animal, adaptable to some extent, but not adaptable enough; the Intermountain West and the Southwest have few places truly suitable for horses. Dayton Hyde, who owned a big ranch in southwestern Oregon, moved to the plains to care for wild (feral) horses http://www.daytonohyde.com/ahomeforwildhors.html . This is another good example to illustrate that habitat is not definable by geography; it is defined by the organisms most suited to habitat conditions. The Great Plains is good horse habitat even though horses did not evolve there. Their requirements are similar to the indigenous bison, the healthy-protein animal birthright which our alien forefathers (except my grandmother's side) almost killed out for the mess of white-bread and breakfast-cereal pottage we industrially farm today, so they could probably establish viable populations, especially in the absence of enough predators to keep their populations healthy. The feral horses which do survive (many starve, and many are ill-suited to the harsh conditions under which they must struggle to live, their numbers harshly thinned out to a wilder and wilder form by indifferent Nature.) Personally, I love horses. Ecologically, the western US is very poor in suitable habitat, which is almost entirely taken up by human, fenced-off uses, forcing them to live a harsher-than-normal life in marginal habitat ill-suited to their survival. Even though I admire their beauty, grace, and apparent toughness, turning domestic horses loose is a cruel act for most of them. Personally, I love pronghorns too; they are better-adapted to the marginal, semi-arid, and otherwise harsh habitats of the West than horses and cattle (which also are a grasslands animal, not a sagebrush steppe one). WT - Original Message - From: Warren W. Aney a...@coho.net To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2011 11:08 AM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species -- feral horses For a good statement and some facts on feral horses and donkeys go The Wildlife Society sites: http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/positionstatements/Feral.Horses.July..2011.pdf http://joomla.wildlife.org/documents/policy/feral_horses_1.pdf The most recent release of domestic horses into the wild probably occurred this morning due to someone's inability to feed their stock or sell them to a meat processor. Warren W. Aney Senior Wildlife Ecologist Tigard, Oregon -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Hamazaki, Hamachan (DFG) Sent: Tuesday, 13 September, 2011 01:12 To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] a non Ivory Tower view of invasive species While we are still on invasive species in the US South Western Regions, what is everyone's opinion about wild horses in the US? They are apparently introduced and became invasive, yet are protected by law. BLM manages them as invasive species, while there is a law suit in the 9th circuit court of Appeals to consider them as native species. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21028174.300-are-the-wild-horses-of-the-american-west-native.html http://tdn.com/lifestyles/article_71e93474-92ff-11e0-9d41-001cc4c002e0.html I always wondered about this issue while I was in NM. Toshihide Hamachan Hamazaki, 濱崎俊秀PhD Alaska Department of Fish and Game: アラスカ州漁業野生動物課 Division of Commercial Fisheries: 商業漁業部 333 Raspberry Rd. Anchorage, AK 99518 Phone: (907)267-2158 Cell: (907)440-9934 - No virus found in this message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3894 - Release Date: 09/13/11
