Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Jurgis Pralgauskis]

maybe http://www.pyzo.org/mission.html (seems like simple, though
oriented towards scientists, but lacks docs)
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[kirby urner]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 7:46 AM, Andrew Harrington  wrote:

> Not a full IDE, but the fine free CS1-ish text
> https://runestone.academy/runestone/static/thinkcspy/index.html
> has the ability to enter Python directly into the browser and run it.
>
>
​Awesome!

+1
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Andrew Harrington]

Not a full IDE, but the fine free CS1-ish text
https://runestone.academy/runestone/static/thinkcspy/index.html
has the ability to enter Python directly into the browser and run it.

When you get to advanced stuff and long programs, it makes sense to switch
to a real IDE, but for a painless start, interleaved with exposition and
online tests with feedback, it is great.


Dr. Andrew N. Harrington
  Computer Science Department
  Graduate Program Director g...@cs.luc.edu
  Loyola University Chicago
  207 Doyle Center, 1052 W Loyola Ave.
http://www.cs.luc.edu/~anh
Phone: 773-508-3569
Dept. Fax:773-508-3739
ahar...@luc.edu (as professor, not gpd role)


On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:30 AM Andre Roberge 
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm compiling a list of available editors for Python designed specifically
> for teaching, with information about the primary targeted audiences and
> would welcome your comments and/or suggestions for additions or
> corrections. So far, I have
>
> Target audience (my own draft definition; feel free to improve upon this):
>
> * young learners  (elementary and high school students)
>
> * hobbyists - beginners of all ages learning on their own
>
> * CS 100 course: elective course targeted at non CS (or even non STEM)
> students. The focus is more on concepts, using Python as the practical tool
> to learn these concepts, rather than learning the Pythonic idioms or
> learning the effectiveness of various algorithms. For example, list
> comprehensions would likely not be covered in such a course as it does not
> add anything conceptually to an explicit for loop.
>
> * CS 101 course: core course in CS meant as a requirement for future
> courses. Some pythonic idioms and details about algorithms would likely be
> covered.
>
> Editors / IDEs :
>
> * IDLE: included with Python. Intended for everyone.
> * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> hobbyists.
> * Thonny. (http://thonny.org/) I am guessing that it is primarily
> intended for CS 101.
> * Wing 101 (https://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101) Primarily
> intended for CS 101.
> * PyCharm Edu (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-edu/) Primarily intended
> for CS 101.
>
> I am not looking for web-based solutions [otherwise, I would have had
> included Reeborg's World ;-)] and do not want to include obsolete or no
> longer maintained software (like rur-ple, the precursor to Reeborg's World.)
>
> Best,
>
> André
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Kevin Cole]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:52 AM Nicholas H.Tollervey 
wrote:

On 03/07/18 15:27, Andre Roberge wrote:
> > * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> > hobbyists.
>
> Nope.
>
> I'm the author of Mu. It's for beginner programmers of all levels (as it
> says so on the website). Beginner programmer is a "stage" not an age. ;-)
>

​"Young" is a state of mind not an age. ;-)
​
-- 
*Kevin Cole*
Software Developer / Member / Owner

NOVA Web Development Co-Op
http://novawebdevelopment.org/
Arlington, VA
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Andre Roberge]

On Mon, Jul 9, 2018 at 8:18 AM Aivar Annamaa  wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I just found an educational Python IDE nobody hasn't mention yet --
> TigerJython: http://jython.tobiaskohn.ch/index.html
>

​
Thank you very much for this.

For those that look at the available links and do not pursue further
because they appear to point to resources written in German, note that some
documents are available in English (and French) in addition to German. For
example: http://www.tigerjython.com/engl/index.php

I have not tried it yet.  Reading the description, I like the fact that it
appears to be a self-contained environment (like Thonny and Mu) that
include nice simplified tracebacks and other features useful for beginners.

I note that it adds to standard Python a special repeat syntax

repeat n:
# block of code

which is something I also support on Reeborg's World.  I suggested such an
addition for standard Python on the Python-ideas list but it was quickly
shut down (and I don't disagree with the rationale given - but I still
think it is something very useful in an environment designed for beginners).

It is possible to implement something like this in standard Python using
import hooks (as I reported some time ago on this list), but it is not
exactly easy.  (I may have more to say on this soon.)

André
​




>
> Here is author's PhD thesis:
> https://tobiaskohn.ch/files/Dissertation_TKohn.pdf
>
> best regards,
> Aivar
>
> 03.07.2018 17:27 Andre Roberge kirjutas:
>
> Hi everyone,
>
> I'm compiling a list of available editors for Python designed specifically
> for teaching, with information about the primary targeted audiences and
> would welcome your comments and/or suggestions for additions or
> corrections. So far, I have
>
> Target audience (my own draft definition; feel free to improve upon this):
>
> * young learners  (elementary and high school students)
>
> * hobbyists - beginners of all ages learning on their own
>
> * CS 100 course: elective course targeted at non CS (or even non STEM)
> students. The focus is more on concepts, using Python as the practical tool
> to learn these concepts, rather than learning the Pythonic idioms or
> learning the effectiveness of various algorithms. For example, list
> comprehensions would likely not be covered in such a course as it does not
> add anything conceptually to an explicit for loop.
>
> * CS 101 course: core course in CS meant as a requirement for future
> courses. Some pythonic idioms and details about algorithms would likely be
> covered.
>
> Editors / IDEs :
>
> * IDLE: included with Python. Intended for everyone.
> * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> hobbyists.
> * Thonny. (http://thonny.org/) I am guessing that it is primarily
> intended for CS 101.
> * Wing 101 (https://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101) Primarily
> intended for CS 101.
> * PyCharm Edu (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-edu/) Primarily intended
> for CS 101.
>
> I am not looking for web-based solutions [otherwise, I would have had
> included Reeborg's World ;-)] and do not want to include obsolete or no
> longer maintained software (like rur-ple, the precursor to Reeborg's World.)
>
> Best,
>
> André
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Edu-sig mailing 
> listEdu-sig@python.orghttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/edu-sig
>
>
> ___
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>
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Aivar Annamaa]

Hi!

I just found an educational Python IDE nobody hasn't mention yet -- 
TigerJython: http://jython.tobiaskohn.ch/index.html
Here is author's PhD thesis: 
https://tobiaskohn.ch/files/Dissertation_TKohn.pdf


best regards,
Aivar


03.07.2018 17:27 Andre Roberge kirjutas:

Hi everyone,

I'm compiling a list of available editors for Python designed 
specifically for teaching, with information about the primary targeted 
audiences and would welcome your comments and/or suggestions for 
additions or corrections. So far, I have


Target audience (my own draft definition; feel free to improve upon this):

* young learners  (elementary and high school students)

* hobbyists - beginners of all ages learning on their own

* CS 100 course: elective course targeted at non CS (or even non STEM) 
students. The focus is more on concepts, using Python as the practical 
tool to learn these concepts, rather than learning the Pythonic idioms 
or learning the effectiveness of various algorithms. For example, list 
comprehensions would likely not be covered in such a course as it does 
not add anything conceptually to an explicit for loop.


* CS 101 course: core course in CS meant as a requirement for future 
courses. Some pythonic idioms and details about algorithms would 
likely be covered.


Editors / IDEs :

* IDLE: included with Python. Intended for everyone.
* Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and 
hobbyists.
* Thonny. (http://thonny.org/) I am guessing that it is primarily 
intended for CS 101.
* Wing 101 (https://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101) Primarily 
intended for CS 101.
* PyCharm Edu (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-edu/) Primarily 
intended for CS 101.


I am not looking for web-based solutions [otherwise, I would have had 
included Reeborg's World ;-)] and do not want to include obsolete or 
no longer maintained software (like rur-ple, the precursor to 
Reeborg's World.)


Best,

André





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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[kirby urner]

​Regarding Atom.io editor for Python (and other languages), I'm just now
discovering the Hydrogen plug-in.

This allows highlighting contiguous lines in a script and ​treating this as
a cell, as if in a Jupyter Notebook (but we're in a normal program).

The output inserts directly below.  Here's a screen shot:

https://flic.kr/p/27KsgFG
Editor split in two columns with in-line Jupyter-like output interleaved

I found this Youtube showing the user experience:

https://youtu.be/VcDbxEV-OI0
Learn Jupyter Notebooks (pt.1a) Hydrogen with Atom
​by Mark Jay​

As with Jupyter, you can also get LaTex symbolic output with this feature.
Still exploring.

Kirby
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[A Jorge Garcia via Edu-sig]

If u want more bells and whistles, cocalc.com like sage but it's a subscription 
service.

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On Jul 4, 2018, 12:26 PM, at 12:26 PM, A Jorge Garcia  wrote:
>I like Processing and c9.io for my Computer Science kids. We also used
>arduino studio with codrones.
>
>My math students and I use python a lot on sagecell.sagemath.org.
>
>HTH,
>AJG
>
>⁣Sent from BlueMail ​
>
>On Jul 4, 2018, 12:16 PM, at 12:16 PM, Andre Roberge
> wrote:
>>On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:09 PM Wanjun Zhang 
>>wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> We recently had to pick a beginner-friendly python editor for our
>>Invent
>>> to Learn summer program. We also teach a lot of Raspberry Pi based
>>Intro to
>>> Python workshops for kids and adults alike. In addition to
>>editor/IDE,
>>> there’s another category to consider - specialized education
>platform
>>- For
>>> instance, EarSketch  is a
>>> programming environment made specifically to teach coding through
>>sound
>>> mixing.
>>>
>>> Over the years we tried Trinket.io, PyCharm Edu, Visual Studio Code,
>>Mu,
>>> iPythonNotebooks, Earsketch, Processing in Python mode, Thonny, IDLE
>>+ some
>>> I don’t remember.
>>>
>>> For us, it’s about prioritizing specific goals for our students and
>>our
>>> program. For the summer program we are working with FabLab Houston
>to
>>equip
>>> students with both maker skills and programming skills. They will
>>learn
>>> Python with the Raspberry Pi with first the Minecraft Pi api, then
>>sensor
>>> stuffs with Circuit Python on Adafruit’s Circuit Playground Learning
>>> Express, then Processing in Python mode to visualize some data with
>>> neopixels. For Fab Lab our goal is also to 1. train FabLab staff
>>members
>>> with enough programming skills so they can deliver the Invent to
>>Learn
>>> program without us, 2. produce open source curriculum from this
>>program for
>>> other makerspaces.
>>>
>>> Ultimately, I think it should be up to the specific teacher to pick
>>out
>>> features - as programmers we tend to look at specs and numbers, but
>>we must
>>> also prioritize setting up educators for success - they are the
>>frontline
>>> workers delivering the service. For instance, trinket.io is our
>go-to
>>> because a lot of educator’s don’t have admin access to their
>>computers, so
>>> web-based editor that is easy to use and specifically made for
>>education is
>>> great. However we do recognize the value in exposing our students to
>>tools
>>> that developers use - like PyCharm.
>>> This is our pro and cons list off of the top of my head for choosing
>>an
>>> editor for different partners and educators that we work with:
>>>
>>> - *Platform* - can we do things in command line on the computer that
>>is
>>> available to us, whether that’s a raspberry pi, mac, or pc?
>>Trinket.io is
>>> a great web-based solution if that’s an issue.
>>>
>>> - Existing *resources and community* - are there educator resources?
>>Is
>>> this random IDE made by one person as a marketing exercise? if open
>>source,
>>> when is the projects' last pull request? The Thonny Editor is
>awesome
>>> because there are a lot of high quality curriculum from
>>> https://projects.raspberrypi.org/ Same goes for Trinket.io.
>>>
>>> - Learning Curve for *educator *- If a teacher is teaching this and
>>not a
>>> developer, are they able to successfully use this tool? Do we expect
>>them
>>> to learn to use the terminal? Again, Trinket.io is a great starting
>>point.
>>>
>>> - Learning Curve for *student *- Does the IDE/Editor have too many
>>> options? Not enough? What is the cognitive load for the student.
>>>
>>> *- Utility for student* - Do we want to provide a real world
>>developer
>>> experience for our students? Or is our goal to have them build
>>something as
>>> to inspire. Is this a long term program or a short term project? Do
>>we want
>>> learners to quickly go through turtles (trinket.io) or be exposed to
>>> developer tools (pycharm)?
>>>
>>> After much consideration, we chose Thonny and also Python mode in
>the
>>> Processing IDE for our three week program.
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>
>>
>>​Yes, it does help very much.  I like your choice of Thonny +
>>Processing.
>>And your list of criterion is very good and may be useful to many
>>people on
>>this list.
>>
>>/Digression about trinket, and an alternative that I designed
>>
>>I know that a lot of people like trinket.io.  However, it has some
>>negative
>>points in my opinion:
>>
>>1. It uses an implementation of Python 2 - it is not compatible with
>>Python
>>3. To me, this is almost inexcusable.
>>2. It is not a completely free, open source solution.
>>
>>As web based alternative to trinket, I suggest my own site:
>>http://reeborg.ca/reeborg.html - which does support Python 3 and does
>>not
>>require users to log in. This has the downside that they cannot save
>>their
>>code on my site. However, it is possible to load code hosted
>elsewhere.
>>For
>>example, one could save 

Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[A Jorge Garcia via Edu-sig]

I like Processing and c9.io for my Computer Science kids. We also used arduino 
studio with codrones.

My math students and I use python a lot on sagecell.sagemath.org.

HTH,
AJG

⁣Sent from BlueMail ​

On Jul 4, 2018, 12:16 PM, at 12:16 PM, Andre Roberge  
wrote:
>On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:09 PM Wanjun Zhang 
>wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> We recently had to pick a beginner-friendly python editor for our
>Invent
>> to Learn summer program. We also teach a lot of Raspberry Pi based
>Intro to
>> Python workshops for kids and adults alike. In addition to
>editor/IDE,
>> there’s another category to consider - specialized education platform
>- For
>> instance, EarSketch  is a
>> programming environment made specifically to teach coding through
>sound
>> mixing.
>>
>> Over the years we tried Trinket.io, PyCharm Edu, Visual Studio Code,
>Mu,
>> iPythonNotebooks, Earsketch, Processing in Python mode, Thonny, IDLE
>+ some
>> I don’t remember.
>>
>> For us, it’s about prioritizing specific goals for our students and
>our
>> program. For the summer program we are working with FabLab Houston to
>equip
>> students with both maker skills and programming skills. They will
>learn
>> Python with the Raspberry Pi with first the Minecraft Pi api, then
>sensor
>> stuffs with Circuit Python on Adafruit’s Circuit Playground Learning
>> Express, then Processing in Python mode to visualize some data with
>> neopixels. For Fab Lab our goal is also to 1. train FabLab staff
>members
>> with enough programming skills so they can deliver the Invent to
>Learn
>> program without us, 2. produce open source curriculum from this
>program for
>> other makerspaces.
>>
>> Ultimately, I think it should be up to the specific teacher to pick
>out
>> features - as programmers we tend to look at specs and numbers, but
>we must
>> also prioritize setting up educators for success - they are the
>frontline
>> workers delivering the service. For instance, trinket.io is our go-to
>> because a lot of educator’s don’t have admin access to their
>computers, so
>> web-based editor that is easy to use and specifically made for
>education is
>> great. However we do recognize the value in exposing our students to
>tools
>> that developers use - like PyCharm.
>> This is our pro and cons list off of the top of my head for choosing
>an
>> editor for different partners and educators that we work with:
>>
>> - *Platform* - can we do things in command line on the computer that
>is
>> available to us, whether that’s a raspberry pi, mac, or pc?
>Trinket.io is
>> a great web-based solution if that’s an issue.
>>
>> - Existing *resources and community* - are there educator resources?
>Is
>> this random IDE made by one person as a marketing exercise? if open
>source,
>> when is the projects' last pull request? The Thonny Editor is awesome
>> because there are a lot of high quality curriculum from
>> https://projects.raspberrypi.org/ Same goes for Trinket.io.
>>
>> - Learning Curve for *educator *- If a teacher is teaching this and
>not a
>> developer, are they able to successfully use this tool? Do we expect
>them
>> to learn to use the terminal? Again, Trinket.io is a great starting
>point.
>>
>> - Learning Curve for *student *- Does the IDE/Editor have too many
>> options? Not enough? What is the cognitive load for the student.
>>
>> *- Utility for student* - Do we want to provide a real world
>developer
>> experience for our students? Or is our goal to have them build
>something as
>> to inspire. Is this a long term program or a short term project? Do
>we want
>> learners to quickly go through turtles (trinket.io) or be exposed to
>> developer tools (pycharm)?
>>
>> After much consideration, we chose Thonny and also Python mode in the
>> Processing IDE for our three week program.
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>
>
>​Yes, it does help very much.  I like your choice of Thonny +
>Processing.
>And your list of criterion is very good and may be useful to many
>people on
>this list.
>
>/Digression about trinket, and an alternative that I designed
>
>I know that a lot of people like trinket.io.  However, it has some
>negative
>points in my opinion:
>
>1. It uses an implementation of Python 2 - it is not compatible with
>Python
>3. To me, this is almost inexcusable.
>2. It is not a completely free, open source solution.
>
>As web based alternative to trinket, I suggest my own site:
>http://reeborg.ca/reeborg.html - which does support Python 3 and does
>not
>require users to log in. This has the downside that they cannot save
>their
>code on my site. However, it is possible to load code hosted elsewhere.
>For
>example, one could save some code on https://pastebin.com/ and load it
>from
>there.
>
>For graphics, Reeborg's World is based on using a Karel-like robot
>instead
>of a turtle mode ... BUT, one can (in principle) use turtle graphics on
>it
>-- I just haven't gotten around to incorporating the Brython turtle
>module
>into it.  (It's on my 

Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Andre Roberge]

On Wed, Jul 4, 2018 at 12:09 PM Wanjun Zhang  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We recently had to pick a beginner-friendly python editor for our Invent
> to Learn summer program. We also teach a lot of Raspberry Pi based Intro to
> Python workshops for kids and adults alike. In addition to editor/IDE,
> there’s another category to consider - specialized education platform - For
> instance, EarSketch  is a
> programming environment made specifically to teach coding through sound
> mixing.
>
> Over the years we tried Trinket.io, PyCharm Edu, Visual Studio Code, Mu,
> iPythonNotebooks, Earsketch, Processing in Python mode, Thonny, IDLE + some
> I don’t remember.
>
> For us, it’s about prioritizing specific goals for our students and our
> program. For the summer program we are working with FabLab Houston to equip
> students with both maker skills and programming skills. They will learn
> Python with the Raspberry Pi with first the Minecraft Pi api, then sensor
> stuffs with Circuit Python on Adafruit’s Circuit Playground Learning
> Express, then Processing in Python mode to visualize some data with
> neopixels. For Fab Lab our goal is also to 1. train FabLab staff members
> with enough programming skills so they can deliver the Invent to Learn
> program without us, 2. produce open source curriculum from this program for
> other makerspaces.
>
> Ultimately, I think it should be up to the specific teacher to pick out
> features - as programmers we tend to look at specs and numbers, but we must
> also prioritize setting up educators for success - they are the frontline
> workers delivering the service. For instance, trinket.io is our go-to
> because a lot of educator’s don’t have admin access to their computers, so
> web-based editor that is easy to use and specifically made for education is
> great. However we do recognize the value in exposing our students to tools
> that developers use - like PyCharm.
> This is our pro and cons list off of the top of my head for choosing an
> editor for different partners and educators that we work with:
>
> - *Platform* - can we do things in command line on the computer that is
> available to us, whether that’s a raspberry pi, mac, or pc? Trinket.io is
> a great web-based solution if that’s an issue.
>
> - Existing *resources and community* - are there educator resources? Is
> this random IDE made by one person as a marketing exercise? if open source,
> when is the projects' last pull request? The Thonny Editor is awesome
> because there are a lot of high quality curriculum from
> https://projects.raspberrypi.org/ Same goes for Trinket.io.
>
> - Learning Curve for *educator *- If a teacher is teaching this and not a
> developer, are they able to successfully use this tool? Do we expect them
> to learn to use the terminal? Again, Trinket.io is a great starting point.
>
> - Learning Curve for *student *- Does the IDE/Editor have too many
> options? Not enough? What is the cognitive load for the student.
>
> *- Utility for student* - Do we want to provide a real world developer
> experience for our students? Or is our goal to have them build something as
> to inspire. Is this a long term program or a short term project? Do we want
> learners to quickly go through turtles (trinket.io) or be exposed to
> developer tools (pycharm)?
>
> After much consideration, we chose Thonny and also Python mode in the
> Processing IDE for our three week program.
>
> Hope this helps.
>


​Yes, it does help very much.  I like your choice of Thonny + Processing.
And your list of criterion is very good and may be useful to many people on
this list.

/Digression about trinket, and an alternative that I designed

I know that a lot of people like trinket.io.  However, it has some negative
points in my opinion:

1. It uses an implementation of Python 2 - it is not compatible with Python
3. To me, this is almost inexcusable.
2. It is not a completely free, open source solution.

As web based alternative to trinket, I suggest my own site:
http://reeborg.ca/reeborg.html - which does support Python 3 and does not
require users to log in. This has the downside that they cannot save their
code on my site. However, it is possible to load code hosted elsewhere. For
example, one could save some code on https://pastebin.com/ and load it from
there.

For graphics, Reeborg's World is based on using a Karel-like robot instead
of a turtle mode ... BUT, one can (in principle) use turtle graphics on it
-- I just haven't gotten around to incorporating the Brython turtle module
into it.  (It's on my list of things to do. I can bump it up in priority
enough people are interested, willing to test it and provide feedback).

While anyone can run arbitrary programs on it, it is designed to have tasks
that can give feedback to students as to whether or not a given task has
been accomplished.

It also offers the *choice* of using an REPL or a block programming
interface.  Students can do live "pair 

Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Wanjun Zhang]

gt; jurgis.pralgaus...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Ok, I could test it :)
>>
>>
>> Should I wait for some commit and comment results on the issues site or
>> how...?
>>
>
> ?Jurgis: Could you just apply the patch I submitted locally and test it?
>
> Or would anyone else volunteer to test it? Obviously, I can provide an
> independent test of my own contribution. :-)?
>
>
>
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 11:27:05 -0300
From: Andre Roberge 
To: "edu-sig@python.org" 
Subject: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

Hi everyone,

I'm compiling a list of available editors for Python designed specifically
for teaching, with information about the primary targeted audiences and
would welcome your comments and/or suggestions for additions or
corrections. So far, I have

Target audience (my own draft definition; feel free to improve upon this):

* young learners (elementary and high school students)

* hobbyists - beginners of all ages learning on their own

* CS 100 course: elective course targeted at non CS (or even non STEM)
students. The focus is more on concepts, using Python as the practical tool
to learn these concepts, rather than learning the Pythonic idioms or
learning the effectiveness of various algorithms. For example, list
comprehensions would likely not be covered in such a course as it does not
add anything conceptually to an explicit for loop.

* CS 101 course: core course in CS meant as a requirement for future
courses. Some pythonic idioms and details about algorithms would likely be
covered.

Editors / IDEs :

* IDLE: included with Python. Intended for everyone.
* Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
hobbyists.
* Thonny. (http://thonny.org/) I am guessing that it is primarily intended
for CS 101.
* Wing 101 (https://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101) Primarily intended
for CS 101.
* PyCharm Edu (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-edu/) Primarily intended
for CS 101.

I am not looking for web-based solutions [otherwise, I would have had
included Reeborg's World ;-)] and do not want to include obsolete or no
longer maintained software (like rur-ple, the precursor to Reeborg's
World.)

Best,

Andr?
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 15:48:52 +0100
From: "Nicholas H.Tollervey" 
To: edu-sig@python.org
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching
Message-ID: <1180cbb5-e461-84a6-f634-c0c5e2889...@ntoll.org>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed

On 03/07/18 15:27, Andre Roberge wrote:
> * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> hobbyists.

Nope.

I'm the author of Mu. It's for beginner programmers of all levels (as it
says so on the website). Beginner programmer is a "stage" not an age. ;-)

The design reflects feedback given to the Raspberry Pi Foundation's
education team, extensive UX and feedback from both beginner programmers
and teachers.

Thanks,

N.


--

Message: 4
Date: Tue, 3 Jul 2018 12:04:29 -0300
From: Andre Roberge 
To: nt...@ntoll.org
Cc: "edu-sig@python.org" 
Subject: Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching
Message-ID:

Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:52 AM Nicholas H.Tollervey 
wrote:

> On 03/07/18 15:27, Andre Roberge wrote:
> > * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> > hobbyists.
>
> Nope.
>
> ?Thanks!?



> I'm the author of Mu. It's for beginner programmers of all levels (as it
> says so on the website). Beginner programmer is a "stage" not an age. ;-)
>


?I do agree with what you write ... but, at the same time, I've been
struggling to define appropriate categories. Some software can be designed
for use by (young) adult beginners but not for young children. (For
example: anything that will rely heavily on word menus ... say, like
Microsoft Word.) I'm using the term hobbyists for this category. Other
software can be designed to be used by young children. I did not see Mu
being designed to be used in a CS 101 type of course. Perhaps I am wrong
and should simply think of the target audience as "everyone" like I did for
IDLE ?



Andr?

>
> The design reflects feedback given to the Raspberry Pi Foundation's
> education team, extensive UX and feedback from both beginner programmers
> and teachers.
>
> ?


> Thanks,
>
> 

Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[René Dudfield]

Debian/unix: because comparative learning, depth, and libre software is
also important.
Jupyter: because science.
Notepad/vim/nano: because they are there.
No editor/ipython: because python has a repl.
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[kirby urner]

>
> https://github.com/quobit/awesome-python-in-education/
> blob/master/README.md#ides
> lists a bunch of IDEs, but not with such a useful table of structured
> criteria.
>
>
​Great listing of resources!

Yes, I like using the #%% feature to bracket sections of a script, used
that tonight.  I failed to find much time for Atom, maybe next time.

I've found myself back in Atom recently because I'm learning Rust, at least
to a "getting my feet wet" level.   Atom has the needed color coding.

Which reminds me of an important distinction between IDEs:

Those that focus on one language versus IDEs suitable for polyglots (the
above listing has some of each).

Sometimes the best intro courses hop around among languages, highlighting
sameness and differences.

I enjoyed a great one at Princeton like that, which had us coding in PL/1,
FORTRAN, APL, SNOBOL, an Assembly and I'm forgetting what else.

That was in the 1970s (!) so of course the lineup would have changed
immensely.

Python front burner, maybe look at two others back burner?  More like
Harvard's CS50.

https://youtu.be/n_8zxTH7SvA

Sometimes even if just looking at Python, one might go with at least two
IDEs as a minimum, perhaps one dedicated to Python, one more general
purpose.

Kirby
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Wes Turner]

Spyder has code cell support for evaluating a delimited block of code at a
time:

```python
#%% cell 1

print(1)

# In[0]: (cell 2)

print(2)
```

- Ctrl-Return -- Run cell
- Shift-Return -- Run cell and advance

$ conda install -y spyder

You can export Jupyter notebooks to .py files with the second form of cell
delimiters with:

$ jupyter convert --to python

...

https://github.com/quobit/awesome-python-in-education/blob/master/README.md#ides
lists a bunch of IDEs, but not with such a useful table of structured
criteria.

(I'm partial to vim & python-mode; which aren't at all beginner friendly)

On Tuesday, July 3, 2018, kirby urner  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Andre Roberge 
> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:59 PM kirby urner  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> I use Spyder in my adult beginner Python classes. I like the integrated
>>> REPL (not just a window to Terminal) and the I-Python console.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ​Looking at some old emails, about 3 years ago I had concluded that
>> Spyder would have been my first choice too, because of what you mentioned.
>> I also liked the integrated help.  However, I would not describe it as an
>> editor (or IDE) whose primary purpose was for teaching, but rather designed
>> with data scientists in mind.  I think it might be a good choice for CS 101
>> students (to use the terminology I used previously) or for a motivated
>> teacher who can be physically present to help students with it.
>> ​
>>
>
> ​Yes I agree that Spyder is not primarily for teaching. In making the job
> of coding easier, I good IDE inevitably serves a teaching function.
>
> I teach Python in two ways:  BYOD (students have their own computers) and
> spin up a desktop in the cloud somewhere.
>
> The Anaconda distro suggests itself for BYOD because of its support of
> grabbing additional packages as well as integrating lots of tools.
>
> In the spin up a desktop courses, I've used Eclipse (O'Reilly School) and
> more recently Wing (ONLC).
>
> What I tell all my students is choice of IDE can be personal, a matter of
> taste, and they my want to jump around. I mention a bunch of them and
> demonstrate at least a couple near the start of my course, but then settle
> into using one most of all.  That's been Spyder for the last few years.
>
> I'm enjoying Atom these days.  I'm planning on sharing it tonight in fact
> (a 7th meetup of 10 for SAISOFT).
>
> What I like about Spyder is it's no cost and continues to improve.  I like
> being able to clear the REPL at any time, also to %reset (wipe memory).  In
> terms of students watching my screen in real time, I've become most
> comfortable with Spyder, but who knows if this will change.
>
> I have the programming window and REPL side-by-side vertically.  I've got
> some Youtubes about it.  E.g.:
>
> https://youtu.be/yK0LrfQFdQY
>
> (10 minute video about going from Codesters to Spyder, doesn't get to
> Spyder until around 3:52).
>
> I do not think my content, style, choice of tools, is in any sense "best"
> as circumstances and client needs vary, not to mention instructor
> capabilities.
>
> ​
>
>>
>>> Also, I'm a fan of the Anaconda distro of Python which makes it easy to
>>> jump into Jupyter Notebooks, an introductory topic in my courses.
>>>
>>
>> ​I also like Jupyter Notebooks, but I see them more as a tool for
>> producing teaching (or research) material, than for a platform for students
>> to learn Python. I consider the ability to save a program as a .py file
>> something essential in an editor for students.
>>
>
> ​Yes, many ways to slice through the material.  I just finished a summer
> camp in a computer lab where my primary objective was to walk them through
> cloning a git repo on a mac (git already installed) and then experimenting
> with Markdown in the Jupyter Notebooks they found therein.  Add some
> pictures from Flickr.  Add a few links.
>
> I did draw their attention to the Python code cells and encouraged them to
> experiment by making changes to existing code.  One of the campers tried to
> get a Wolfram Alpha API working through his Notebook however that required
> dependencies we didn't have permission to install apparently.  These
> desktops were provided by the college hosting the summer camp (Reed in
> Portland).  I talked them into putting Anaconda on.
>
> FYI, the repo in question:
> https://github.com/4dsolutions/MartianMath
>
> These were middle schoolers, about 15.  I had an assistant instructor but
> he was mostly involved with C6XTY projects (unplugged).
> ​
>
>>
>> The last time I wanted to do a major update to my Anaconda distro on
>> Windows, I was shocked to learn that the recommended way was not going to
>> work (I believe it was due to the way that Anaconda was stuffing too much
>> stuff on the PATH environment variable which made it not possible to do an
>> upgrade to include a newer Python version).  I may have got the details
>> wrong, but I do remember being severely disappointed by the way it worked 

Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[kirby urner]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:45 PM, Andre Roberge 
wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:59 PM kirby urner  wrote:
>
>>
>> I use Spyder in my adult beginner Python classes. I like the integrated
>> REPL (not just a window to Terminal) and the I-Python console.
>>
>
>
> ​Looking at some old emails, about 3 years ago I had concluded that Spyder
> would have been my first choice too, because of what you mentioned. I also
> liked the integrated help.  However, I would not describe it as an editor
> (or IDE) whose primary purpose was for teaching, but rather designed with
> data scientists in mind.  I think it might be a good choice for CS 101
> students (to use the terminology I used previously) or for a motivated
> teacher who can be physically present to help students with it.
> ​
>

​Yes I agree that Spyder is not primarily for teaching. In making the job
of coding easier, I good IDE inevitably serves a teaching function.

I teach Python in two ways:  BYOD (students have their own computers) and
spin up a desktop in the cloud somewhere.

The Anaconda distro suggests itself for BYOD because of its support of
grabbing additional packages as well as integrating lots of tools.

In the spin up a desktop courses, I've used Eclipse (O'Reilly School) and
more recently Wing (ONLC).

What I tell all my students is choice of IDE can be personal, a matter of
taste, and they my want to jump around. I mention a bunch of them and
demonstrate at least a couple near the start of my course, but then settle
into using one most of all.  That's been Spyder for the last few years.

I'm enjoying Atom these days.  I'm planning on sharing it tonight in fact
(a 7th meetup of 10 for SAISOFT).

What I like about Spyder is it's no cost and continues to improve.  I like
being able to clear the REPL at any time, also to %reset (wipe memory).  In
terms of students watching my screen in real time, I've become most
comfortable with Spyder, but who knows if this will change.

I have the programming window and REPL side-by-side vertically.  I've got
some Youtubes about it.  E.g.:

https://youtu.be/yK0LrfQFdQY

(10 minute video about going from Codesters to Spyder, doesn't get to
Spyder until around 3:52).

I do not think my content, style, choice of tools, is in any sense "best"
as circumstances and client needs vary, not to mention instructor
capabilities.

​

>
>> Also, I'm a fan of the Anaconda distro of Python which makes it easy to
>> jump into Jupyter Notebooks, an introductory topic in my courses.
>>
>
> ​I also like Jupyter Notebooks, but I see them more as a tool for
> producing teaching (or research) material, than for a platform for students
> to learn Python. I consider the ability to save a program as a .py file
> something essential in an editor for students.
>

​Yes, many ways to slice through the material.  I just finished a summer
camp in a computer lab where my primary objective was to walk them through
cloning a git repo on a mac (git already installed) and then experimenting
with Markdown in the Jupyter Notebooks they found therein.  Add some
pictures from Flickr.  Add a few links.

I did draw their attention to the Python code cells and encouraged them to
experiment by making changes to existing code.  One of the campers tried to
get a Wolfram Alpha API working through his Notebook however that required
dependencies we didn't have permission to install apparently.  These
desktops were provided by the college hosting the summer camp (Reed in
Portland).  I talked them into putting Anaconda on.

FYI, the repo in question:
https://github.com/4dsolutions/MartianMath

These were middle schoolers, about 15.  I had an assistant instructor but
he was mostly involved with C6XTY projects (unplugged).
​

>
> The last time I wanted to do a major update to my Anaconda distro on
> Windows, I was shocked to learn that the recommended way was not going to
> work (I believe it was due to the way that Anaconda was stuffing too much
> stuff on the PATH environment variable which made it not possible to do an
> upgrade to include a newer Python version).  I may have got the details
> wrong, but I do remember being severely disappointed by the way it worked -
> as I had gotten really fond of its super-battery included philosophy which
> made it so much easier to install some packages on Windows...
>
>
​Anaconda is a moving target and the experience on Windows / Mac / Linux
varies some.  Still, it's a viable alternative to the canonical Python.org
distro.

Jupyter Notebooks represents a kind of "literate programming" (Knuth) where
what you're showing with code may indeed not so much be about teaching the
language itself.  We're more surveying the contemporary workplace, looking
at tools that might already be used, or might be soon introduced.

In this summer school use case, we were looking at spatial geometry as a
primary topic, and were learning a cross-section of skills that would not
really characterize a contemporary computer science or 

Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Andre Roberge]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 3:59 PM kirby urner  wrote:

>
> I use Spyder in my adult beginner Python classes. I like the integrated
> REPL (not just a window to Terminal) and the I-Python console.
>


​Looking at some old emails, about 3 years ago I had concluded that Spyder
would have been my first choice too, because of what you mentioned. I also
liked the integrated help.  However, I would not describe it as an editor
(or IDE) whose primary purpose was for teaching, but rather designed with
data scientists in mind.  I think it might be a good choice for CS 101
students (to use the terminology I used previously) or for a motivated
teacher who can be physically present to help students with it.
​

>
> Also, I'm a fan of the Anaconda distro of Python which makes it easy to
> jump into Jupyter Notebooks, an introductory topic in my courses.
>

​I also like Jupyter Notebooks, but I see them more as a tool for producing
teaching (or research) material, than for a platform for students to learn
Python. I consider the ability to save a program as a .py file something
essential in an editor for students.

The last time I wanted to do a major update to my Anaconda distro on
Windows, I was shocked to learn that the recommended way was not going to
work (I believe it was due to the way that Anaconda was stuffing too much
stuff on the PATH environment variable which made it not possible to do an
upgrade to include a newer Python version).  I may have got the details
wrong, but I do remember being severely disappointed by the way it worked -
as I had gotten really fond of its super-battery included philosophy which
made it so much easier to install some packages on Windows...

= = =

Looking back at my old notes, I see that Ninja IDE (http://ninja-ide.org/)
was also recommended by some people.

I have much to think about ...

André

​
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[kirby urner]

I use Spyder in my adult beginner Python classes. I like the integrated
REPL (not just a window to Terminal) and the I-Python console.

Also, I'm a fan of the Anaconda distro of Python which makes it easy to
jump into Jupyter Notebooks, an introductory topic in my courses.

Given Jupyter grew out of I-Python, there's a lot of commonalities and
integration, especially around %magic commands.

Spyder is comparable to Wing 101 in its capabilities.

Kirby



Editors / IDEs :
>
> * IDLE: included with Python. Intended for everyone.
> * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> hobbyists.
> * Thonny. (http://thonny.org/) I am guessing that it is primarily
> intended for CS 101.
> * Wing 101 (https://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101) Primarily
> intended for CS 101.
> * PyCharm Edu (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-edu/) Primarily intended
> for CS 101.
>
> I am not looking for web-based solutions [otherwise, I would have had
> included Reeborg's World ;-)] and do not want to include obsolete or no
> longer maintained software (like rur-ple, the precursor to Reeborg's World.)
>
> Best,
>
> André
>
>
>
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Aivar Annamaa]

Hi!

I am author of Thonny. My initial target group was my students in our 
university's first programming course (CS 101 according to your 
taxonomy). I wanted an easy way to show them the exact meaning of main 
programming concepts. Thonny was later successfully used in several 
MOOC-s (both adults and high school pupils, probably same level as your 
CS 100) and also with high school students in an after school program 
(young learners). According to web forums it looks like independent 
learners also use it, but I don't have much feedback from this group.


Like Nicholas, I don't intend to copy every feature from professional 
IDE-s. I do intend to add some new features for beginners, for example 
error explanation service (instructions for fixing common syntax errors, 
interpretations of NameErrors etc, reminders about putting str or int in 
correct places etc). Please add your opinions about which errors should 
it target: 
https://bitbucket.org/plas/thonny/issues/458/offer-explanations-for-common-errors


BTW, Thonny also comes with Python built-in and it has plug-ins for 
MicroPython support (https://bitbucket.org/plas/thonny-micropython).


best regards,
Aivar




On 3.07.2018 17:27, Andre Roberge wrote:

Hi everyone,

I'm compiling a list of available editors for Python designed 
specifically for teaching, with information about the primary targeted 
audiences and would welcome your comments and/or suggestions for 
additions or corrections. So far, I have


Target audience (my own draft definition; feel free to improve upon this):

* young learners  (elementary and high school students)

* hobbyists - beginners of all ages learning on their own

* CS 100 course: elective course targeted at non CS (or even non STEM) 
students. The focus is more on concepts, using Python as the practical 
tool to learn these concepts, rather than learning the Pythonic idioms 
or learning the effectiveness of various algorithms. For example, list 
comprehensions would likely not be covered in such a course as it does 
not add anything conceptually to an explicit for loop.


* CS 101 course: core course in CS meant as a requirement for future 
courses. Some pythonic idioms and details about algorithms would 
likely be covered.


Editors / IDEs :

* IDLE: included with Python. Intended for everyone.
* Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and 
hobbyists.
* Thonny. (http://thonny.org/) I am guessing that it is primarily 
intended for CS 101.
* Wing 101 (https://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101) Primarily 
intended for CS 101.
* PyCharm Edu (https://www.jetbrains.com/pycharm-edu/) Primarily 
intended for CS 101.


I am not looking for web-based solutions [otherwise, I would have had 
included Reeborg's World ;-)] and do not want to include obsolete or 
no longer maintained software (like rur-ple, the precursor to 
Reeborg's World.)


Best,

André





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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

Thank you for your kind words! :-)

Mu 1.0.final should be out in about a fortnight.

N.

On 03/07/18 16:29, Carl Karsten wrote:

Mu bundles Python 3...


I did not know that, and now I love it even more.

Thank you!!!

I do "intro to Python" workshops, and I *hate* the "setup environment"
step; it chews up so much limited precious time.

I've used mu for about 30 min about a month ago when I attended a 1
hour conference session:
By Kattni Rembor
CircuitPython is Python that runs on microcontrollers...

Let me start a new thread about it happening again at PyOhio.

back to mu - Yes, it is now my pick for editor to install and use.



On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Nicholas H.Tollervey  wrote:

On 03/07/18 16:04, Andre Roberge wrote:



I do agree with what you write ... but, at the same time, I've been
struggling to define appropriate categories. Some software can be designed
for use by (young) adult beginners but not for young children. (For example:
anything that will rely heavily on word menus ... say, like Microsoft Word.)
I'm using the term hobbyists for this category. Other software can be
designed to be used by young children.  I did not see Mu being designed to
be used in a CS 101 type of course.  Perhaps I am wrong and should simply
think of the target audience as "everyone" like I did for IDLE ?



Got it in one! :-)

Mu is for *anyone* who is a beginner programmer, no matter their age or
background.

Mu is a *very small* code base (currently around 3.5kloc). However, the
installers for Windows and OSX weigh in at around 100mb. Why? Because Mu
bundles Python 3, Qt, Tkinter, Matplotlib, Numpy, Jupyter, PyGame,
PyGameZero and a host of other things commonly used by those starting
computing classes.

Why include all this stuff? Because (and I remember this from my university
days) just being able to set up a dev environment on your own computer is a
royal pain in the arse -- especially if you're a newbie. ;-) If the answer
is "just install Mu, 'cos it's easy" then beginner data scientists
immediately have a "first steps" IDE they can use to skill-up before they go
figure out how to "pip install jupyter" and point their browser to the right
place. ;-)

Does this make sense?


N.
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Andre Roberge]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 12:11 PM Nicholas H.Tollervey 
wrote:

> On 03/07/18 16:04, Andre Roberge wrote:
> >
> > ​ I do agree with what you write ... but, at the same time, I've been
> > struggling to define appropriate categories. Some software can be
> > designed for use by (young) adult beginners but not for young children.
> > (For example: anything that will rely heavily on word menus ... say,
> > like Microsoft Word.) I'm using the term hobbyists for this category.
> > Other software can be designed to be used by young children.  I did not
> > see Mu being designed to be used in a CS 101 type of course.  Perhaps I
> > am wrong and should simply think of the target audience as "everyone"
> > like I did for IDLE ?
>
> Got it in one! :-)
>
> Mu is for *anyone* who is a beginner programmer, no matter their age or
> background.
>
> Mu is a *very small* code base (currently around 3.5kloc). However, the
> installers for Windows and OSX weigh in at around 100mb. Why? Because Mu
> bundles Python 3, Qt, Tkinter, Matplotlib, Numpy, Jupyter, PyGame,
> PyGameZero and a host of other things commonly used by those starting
> computing classes.
>
> Why include all this stuff? Because (and I remember this from my
> university days) just being able to set up a dev environment on your own
> computer is a royal pain in the arse -- especially if you're a newbie.
> ;-) If the answer is "just install Mu, 'cos it's easy" then beginner
> data scientists immediately have a "first steps" IDE they can use to
> skill-up before they go figure out how to "pip install jupyter" and
> point their browser to the right place. ;-)
>
> Does this make sense?
>

​Yes, it does.  I did install Mu just a few days ago to have a look and
this is one thing that struck me as being extremely positive, as it solves
so many problems faced by beginners. I am truly, truly impressed by it.

I cringe when I see people on the learnpython subreddit reply to people
that are clearly absolute beginners that they should use PyCharm.​  (I do
not bother replying anymore as the PyCharm fans crowd wrongly believe that
their choice is the only suitable one).

My only question about suitability for CS 101 type of audience is that will
it be perceived (by those "serious" CS students) more as a toy, given its
friendly interface, than a "professional" tool suitable for them - such as
Wing 101, or PyCharm Edu. (Don't take me wrong: I really think it would
be very suitable - I'm just wondering about the students' impression.)

André

>
> N.
>
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Carl Karsten]

> Mu bundles Python 3...

I did not know that, and now I love it even more.

Thank you!!!

I do "intro to Python" workshops, and I *hate* the "setup environment"
step; it chews up so much limited precious time.

I've used mu for about 30 min about a month ago when I attended a 1
hour conference session:
By Kattni Rembor
CircuitPython is Python that runs on microcontrollers...

Let me start a new thread about it happening again at PyOhio.

back to mu - Yes, it is now my pick for editor to install and use.



On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 10:11 AM, Nicholas H.Tollervey  wrote:
> On 03/07/18 16:04, Andre Roberge wrote:
>>
>>
>> I do agree with what you write ... but, at the same time, I've been
>> struggling to define appropriate categories. Some software can be designed
>> for use by (young) adult beginners but not for young children. (For example:
>> anything that will rely heavily on word menus ... say, like Microsoft Word.)
>> I'm using the term hobbyists for this category. Other software can be
>> designed to be used by young children.  I did not see Mu being designed to
>> be used in a CS 101 type of course.  Perhaps I am wrong and should simply
>> think of the target audience as "everyone" like I did for IDLE ?
>
>
> Got it in one! :-)
>
> Mu is for *anyone* who is a beginner programmer, no matter their age or
> background.
>
> Mu is a *very small* code base (currently around 3.5kloc). However, the
> installers for Windows and OSX weigh in at around 100mb. Why? Because Mu
> bundles Python 3, Qt, Tkinter, Matplotlib, Numpy, Jupyter, PyGame,
> PyGameZero and a host of other things commonly used by those starting
> computing classes.
>
> Why include all this stuff? Because (and I remember this from my university
> days) just being able to set up a dev environment on your own computer is a
> royal pain in the arse -- especially if you're a newbie. ;-) If the answer
> is "just install Mu, 'cos it's easy" then beginner data scientists
> immediately have a "first steps" IDE they can use to skill-up before they go
> figure out how to "pip install jupyter" and point their browser to the right
> place. ;-)
>
> Does this make sense?
>
>
> N.
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

On 03/07/18 16:04, Andre Roberge wrote:


​ I do agree with what you write ... but, at the same time, I've been 
struggling to define appropriate categories. Some software can be 
designed for use by (young) adult beginners but not for young children. 
(For example: anything that will rely heavily on word menus ... say, 
like Microsoft Word.) I'm using the term hobbyists for this category. 
Other software can be designed to be used by young children.  I did not 
see Mu being designed to be used in a CS 101 type of course.  Perhaps I 
am wrong and should simply think of the target audience as "everyone" 
like I did for IDLE ?


Got it in one! :-)

Mu is for *anyone* who is a beginner programmer, no matter their age or 
background.


Mu is a *very small* code base (currently around 3.5kloc). However, the 
installers for Windows and OSX weigh in at around 100mb. Why? Because Mu 
bundles Python 3, Qt, Tkinter, Matplotlib, Numpy, Jupyter, PyGame, 
PyGameZero and a host of other things commonly used by those starting 
computing classes.


Why include all this stuff? Because (and I remember this from my 
university days) just being able to set up a dev environment on your own 
computer is a royal pain in the arse -- especially if you're a newbie. 
;-) If the answer is "just install Mu, 'cos it's easy" then beginner 
data scientists immediately have a "first steps" IDE they can use to 
skill-up before they go figure out how to "pip install jupyter" and 
point their browser to the right place. ;-)


Does this make sense?

N.
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Andre Roberge]

On Tue, Jul 3, 2018 at 11:52 AM Nicholas H.Tollervey 
wrote:

> On 03/07/18 15:27, Andre Roberge wrote:
> > * Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and
> > hobbyists.
>
> Nope.
>
> ​Thanks!​



> I'm the author of Mu. It's for beginner programmers of all levels (as it
> says so on the website). Beginner programmer is a "stage" not an age. ;-)
>


​I do agree with what you write ... but, at the same time, I've been
struggling to define appropriate categories. Some software can be designed
for use by (young) adult beginners but not for young children. (For
example: anything that will rely heavily on word menus ... say, like
Microsoft Word.) I'm using the term hobbyists for this category. Other
software can be designed to be used by young children.  I did not see Mu
being designed to be used in a CS 101 type of course.  Perhaps I am wrong
and should simply think of the target audience as "everyone" like I did for
IDLE ?



André

>
> The design reflects feedback given to the Raspberry Pi Foundation's
> education team, extensive UX and feedback from both beginner programmers
> and teachers.
>
> ​


> Thanks,
>
> N.
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>
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Re: [Edu-sig] Editors/IDEs for teaching

[Nicholas H.Tollervey]

On 03/07/18 15:27, Andre Roberge wrote:
* Mu (https://codewith.mu/). Primarily intended for young learners and 
hobbyists.


Nope.

I'm the author of Mu. It's for beginner programmers of all levels (as it 
says so on the website). Beginner programmer is a "stage" not an age. ;-)


The design reflects feedback given to the Raspberry Pi Foundation's 
education team, extensive UX and feedback from both beginner programmers 
and teachers.


Thanks,

N.
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