Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[David Anderson via Elecraft]

It is human nature to be disappointed if we don't get the nominal figure, but 
only the lower limit  even if still within spec.  We wouldn't complain if we 
got a few Watts more than the 100 Watts, and of course 100 Watts sounds like a 
lot more than 89 Watts just as $100 does to $89. 

73 from David GM4JJJ

> On 19 Dec 2016, at 08:12, Walter Underwood  wrote:
> 
> For the KXPA100, the tolerance is specified. See page 30 of the manual.
> 
> "Power Output: Max.100 watts at 13.8 V, 1.8 to 29.7 MHz and 80 watts 50-54 
> MHz PEP CW/SSB/DATA, ± 1 dB“
> 
> wunder
> K6WRU
> Walter Underwood
> CM87wj
> http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)
> 
>> On Dec 18, 2016, at 9:22 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
>> 
>> On Sun,12/18/2016 2:04 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>>> If the manufacturer specifies that the transmitter puts out 100W, and 
>>> indeed uses that as a part of the part number on the order sheet, then it's 
>>> not unreasonable for the customer to expect 100 W out. 
>> 
>> The published spec is 100W typical, with no tolerance specified.
>> 
>> 73, Jim K9YC
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Walter Underwood]

For the KXPA100, the tolerance is specified. See page 30 of the manual.

"Power Output: Max.100 watts at 13.8 V, 1.8 to 29.7 MHz and 80 watts 50-54 MHz 
PEP CW/SSB/DATA, ± 1 dB“

wunder
K6WRU
Walter Underwood
CM87wj
http://observer.wunderwood.org/ (my blog)

> On Dec 18, 2016, at 9:22 PM, Jim Brown  wrote:
> 
> On Sun,12/18/2016 2:04 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
>> If the manufacturer specifies that the transmitter puts out 100W, and indeed 
>> uses that as a part of the part number on the order sheet, then it's not 
>> unreasonable for the customer to expect 100 W out. 
> 
> The published spec is 100W typical, with no tolerance specified.
> 
> 73, Jim K9YC
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Wes Stewart]

By your "logic" a few weeks ago when my 100 W K3S started putting out zero watts 
it was still in spec, since there isn't any,  Right?


And if you want to open another can of worms let's talk about "typical" TX IMD.

On 12/18/2016 10:22 PM, Jim Brown wrote:

On Sun,12/18/2016 2:04 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
If the manufacturer specifies that the transmitter puts out 100W, and indeed 
uses that as a part of the part number on the order sheet, then it's not 
unreasonable for the customer to expect 100 W out. 


The published spec is 100W typical, with no tolerance specified.

73, Jim K9YC 


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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Jim Brown]

On Sun,12/18/2016 2:04 PM, Wes Stewart wrote:
If the manufacturer specifies that the transmitter puts out 100W, and 
indeed uses that as a part of the part number on the order sheet, then 
it's not unreasonable for the customer to expect 100 W out. 


The published spec is 100W typical, with no tolerance specified.

73, Jim K9YC

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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

It all depends upon the accuracy of the test equipment, power supply, etc.
Many commercial RF power meter/dummy load combos are no more than 20%
accurate. 

Elecraft Tech support will help anyone who thinks the power output is low
with those questions.

A better analogy is a Lamborghini spec'd at 610 HP, but the dyno at the
local garage says it is putting out only 490 Hp. (I realize that is not
close to 20% low, but the impact of HP on a car's performance is much more
sensitive to horsepower than the RF output of a transmitter is on its
performance on the air.) 

What Emory said about the impact on operations of a 20% drop in RF power out
is right.  

73, Ron AC7AC

 



-Original Message-
From: Elecraft [mailto:elecraft-boun...@mailman.qth.net] On Behalf Of Wes
Stewart
Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2016 2:04 PM
To: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

I totally disagree.  If the manufacturer specifies that the transmitter puts
out 100W, and indeed uses that as a part of the part number on the order
sheet, then it's not unreasonable for the customer to expect 100 W out.

That's like buying a Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 and discovering that it's
not
610 HP and four-wheel drive but two-wheel drive and 300 HP and being told,
why complain, it's still faster than a Prius.

On 12/18/2016 11:09 AM, Emory Schley wrote:
> Hi Guys;..
>   
> One fellow seemed unhappy with a rig putting out "only" 80 watts instead
of the full 100, but there is no way the ham on the other end of the QSO is
going to detect the "deficit". It pretty much boils down to "Can he hear me"
and "Can I hear him"? If the answer is yes to both questions, then all the
rest is just fodder for textbooks and endless discussion/arguing.

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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Wes Stewart]

I totally disagree.  If the manufacturer specifies that the transmitter puts out 
100W, and indeed uses that as a part of the part number on the order sheet, then 
it's not unreasonable for the customer to expect 100 W out.


That's like buying a Lamborghini Huracan LP 610-4 and discovering that it's not 
610 HP and four-wheel drive but two-wheel drive and 300 HP and being told, why 
complain, it's still faster than a Prius.


On 12/18/2016 11:09 AM, Emory Schley wrote:

Hi Guys;..
  
One fellow seemed unhappy with a rig putting out "only" 80 watts instead of the full 100, but there is no way the ham on the other end of the QSO is going to detect the "deficit". It pretty much boils down to "Can he hear me" and "Can I hear him"? If the answer is yes to both questions, then all the rest is just fodder for textbooks and endless discussion/arguing.


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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Fred Jensen]

One part of Amateur Radio is transmitting and receiving.  Another part 
of Amateur Radio is design and construction of equipment.  Yet another 
is delving into the concepts of doing things with available 
equipment/methods.  Traffic handling was once a big activity ... think 
"American Radio RELAY League" ... it's now an anachronism but a few of 
us still dabble in it.  Amateur Radio is a big tent [to plagarize from 
the world of politics], there's room for everyone.


73,

Fred K6DGW
- Sparks NV DM09dn

- Northern California Contest Club
- CU in the Cal QSO Party 7-8 Oct 2017
- www.cqp.org

On 12/18/2016 10:09 AM, Emory Schley wrote:


Hi Guys;

I really don't mean to show my ignorance, but all this talk about
calibration and power out is good up to a point, but if your signal
is off the mark by a couple Hertz, does it really make any REAL WORLD
difference? Even when running PSK31 surely you can be off the "beam"
a Hertz or two or three, maybe more– and you'll still have rock solld
communications.

One fellow seemed unhappy with a rig putting out "only" 80 watts
instead of the full 100, but there is no way the ham on the other end
of the QSO is going to detect the "deficit". It pretty much boils
down to "Can he hear me" and "Can I hear him"? If the answer is yes
to both questions, then all the rest is just fodder for textbooks and
endless discussion/arguing.

I know engineers and wannabe engineers want absolute accuracy. I'm no
fan of sloppiness myself, BUT if you actually consider what you're
dealing with along with the vagaries of propagation, then "close
enough" should be good enough for anyone. If the tool (the
radio/antenna system, in this case) is good enough to get the job
done, then isn't that "good enough," period?

I really don't wish to start any in-fighting here, and I freely admit
I'm not technologically competent enough to sustain my opinions in
any absolute way in a technical discussion, but really, instead of
wasting so much time slicing hairs, wouldn't you really rather be on
the air instead, having fun? I would. :-)

Merry Christmas/Happy Hannukah/Have a Good Day (Take your pick),

Emory Schley N4LP

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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Emory Schley]

Hi Guys;
 
I really don't mean to show my ignorance, but all this talk about calibration 
and power out is good up to a point, but if your signal is off the mark by a 
couple Hertz, does it really make any REAL WORLD difference? Even when running 
PSK31 surely you can be off the "beam" a Hertz or two or three, maybe more– and 
you'll still have rock solld communications.
 
One fellow seemed unhappy with a rig putting out "only" 80 watts instead of the 
full 100, but there is no way the ham on the other end of the QSO is going to 
detect the "deficit". It pretty much boils down to "Can he hear me" and "Can I 
hear him"? If the answer is yes to both questions, then all the rest is just 
fodder for textbooks and endless discussion/arguing.
 
I know engineers and wannabe engineers want absolute accuracy. I'm no fan of 
sloppiness myself, BUT if you actually consider what you're dealing with along 
with the vagaries of propagation, then "close enough" should be good enough for 
anyone. If the tool (the radio/antenna system, in this case) is good enough to 
get the job done, then isn't that "good enough," period?
 
I really don't wish to start any in-fighting here, and I freely admit I'm not 
technologically competent enough to sustain my opinions in any absolute way in 
a technical discussion, but really, instead of wasting so much time slicing 
hairs, wouldn't you really rather be on the air instead, having fun? I would. 
:-)
 
Merry Christmas/Happy Hannukah/Have a Good Day (Take your pick),
 
Emory Schley
N4LP
 
 

Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2016 at 12:18 PM
From: "Brian Denley" <b.den...@comcast.net>
To: brian <als...@comcast.net>
Cc: elecraft@mailman.qth.net
Subject: Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV
Thanks to all for the explanations.

Brian Denley
KB1VBF
Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 18, 2016, at 8:46 AM, brian <als...@comcast.net> wrote:
>
> Expectations may be too high.
>
> All these WWV methods assume there is no Doppler shift present on the WWV 
> signal. Other things to consider: TCXO drift, synthesizer limitations and new 
> synthesizer quirks.
>
> During disturbed times, Doppler could be 1 Hz or more.
> Unfortunately, the Doppler shift present depends upon just about everything-- 
> location, time of day, atmospheric reflecting layer heights, path, the list 
> goes on.
>
> Keep in mind the new synthesizers add an additional quarter Hz (+/-) 
> uncertainty. The syncing of the SI570 to the master oscillator produces 
> sawtooth jumps of that magnitude, sometimes more vs time.
> There are also band to band variations introduced by limitation in finding 
> exact synthesizer divide ratios. Old synthesizers showed many Hz deviations 
> from band to band and as one tuned up the band. These variations are much 
> smaller with the new synthesizers.
>
> Then there is drift. If you are not using XREF, you will experience maybe 10 
> Hz or more warm up drifts. The high stability oscillator takes about four 
> hours to reach its most stable point. The standard oscillator reaches that 
> point a few hours earlier.
>
> The old engineer cautioned: "Never believe the last digit displayed in any 
> device". In this case, don't expect to be within 1 Hz on all bands, all 
> frequencies at all times-- no matter what calibration method you use. Look at 
> the K3 specs. Nowhere will you find an expectation of such accuracy.
>
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
>
>> On 12/18/2016 12:40 PM, K9ZTV wrote:
>> The R.L. Drake Company referred to the zeroing or beating indicators as 
>> "canary chirps," the goal being to slow the "chirping" until there was a 
>> steady tone indicating you were then dead-on. I still find that the most 
>> descriptive way to tell someone how to identify the pulsing when doing the 
>> Reference Calibration against WWV in a K3 (at the highest frequency you can 
>> copy them). The trick is to get the right balance in volume between WWV's 
>> main carrier tone and the K3's sidetone so you can hear the "chirps."
>>
>> Kent, K9ZTV
>>
>>
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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Nr4c]

Chirps?  Mine is more like a slow "whump whump whump", not a chirp. 

Sent from my iPhone
...nr4c. bill


> On Dec 18, 2016, at 7:40 AM, K9ZTV  wrote:
> 
> The R.L. Drake Company referred to the zeroing or beating indicators as 
> "canary chirps,"  the goal being to slow the "chirping" until there was a 
> steady tone indicating you were then dead-on.  I still find that the most 
> descriptive way to tell someone how to identify the pulsing when doing the 
> Reference Calibration against WWV in a K3 (at the highest frequency you can 
> copy them). The trick is to get the right balance in volume between WWV's 
> main carrier tone and the K3's sidetone so you can hear the "chirps." 
> 
> Kent, K9ZTV
> 
> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[Brian Denley]

Thanks to all for the explanations.

Brian Denley
KB1VBF
Sent from my iPad

> On Dec 18, 2016, at 8:46 AM, brian  wrote:
> 
> Expectations may be too high.
> 
> All these WWV methods assume there is no Doppler shift present on the WWV 
> signal.  Other things to consider: TCXO drift, synthesizer limitations and 
> new synthesizer quirks.
> 
> During disturbed times, Doppler could be 1 Hz or more.
> Unfortunately, the Doppler shift present depends upon just about everything-- 
> location, time of day, atmospheric reflecting layer heights, path, the list 
> goes on.
> 
> Keep in mind the new synthesizers add an additional quarter Hz (+/-) 
> uncertainty.  The syncing of the SI570 to the master oscillator produces 
> sawtooth jumps of that magnitude, sometimes more vs time.
> There are also band to band variations introduced by limitation in finding 
> exact synthesizer divide ratios.  Old synthesizers showed many Hz deviations 
> from band to band and as one tuned up the band.  These variations are much 
> smaller with the new synthesizers.
> 
> Then there is drift.  If you are not using XREF, you will experience maybe 10 
> Hz or more warm up drifts.  The high stability oscillator takes about four 
> hours to reach its most stable point.  The standard oscillator reaches that 
> point a few hours earlier.
> 
> The old engineer cautioned: "Never believe the last digit displayed in any 
> device".  In this case, don't expect to be within 1 Hz on all bands, all 
> frequencies at all times-- no matter what calibration method you use.   Look 
> at the K3 specs.  Nowhere will you find an expectation of such accuracy.
> 
> 73 de Brian/K3KO
> 
>> On 12/18/2016 12:40 PM, K9ZTV wrote:
>> The R.L. Drake Company referred to the zeroing or beating indicators as 
>> "canary chirps,"  the goal being to slow the "chirping" until there was a 
>> steady tone indicating you were then dead-on.  I still find that the most 
>> descriptive way to tell someone how to identify the pulsing when doing the 
>> Reference Calibration against WWV in a K3 (at the highest frequency you can 
>> copy them). The trick is to get the right balance in volume between WWV's 
>> main carrier tone and the K3's sidetone so you can hear the "chirps."
>> 
>> Kent, K9ZTV
>> 
>> 
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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[brian]

Expectations may be too high.

All these WWV methods assume there is no Doppler shift present on the 
WWV signal.  Other things to consider: TCXO drift, synthesizer 
limitations and new synthesizer quirks.


During disturbed times, Doppler could be 1 Hz or more.
Unfortunately, the Doppler shift present depends upon just about 
everything-- location, time of day, atmospheric reflecting layer 
heights, path, the list goes on.


Keep in mind the new synthesizers add an additional quarter Hz (+/-) 
uncertainty.  The syncing of the SI570 to the master oscillator produces 
sawtooth jumps of that magnitude, sometimes more vs time.
There are also band to band variations introduced by limitation in 
finding exact synthesizer divide ratios.  Old synthesizers showed many 
Hz deviations from band to band and as one tuned up the band.  These 
variations are much smaller with the new synthesizers.


Then there is drift.  If you are not using XREF, you will experience 
maybe 10 Hz or more warm up drifts.  The high stability oscillator takes 
about four hours to reach its most stable point.  The standard 
oscillator reaches that point a few hours earlier.


The old engineer cautioned: "Never believe the last digit displayed in 
any device".  In this case, don't expect to be within 1 Hz on all bands, 
all frequencies at all times-- no matter what calibration method you 
use.   Look at the K3 specs.  Nowhere will you find an expectation of 
such accuracy.


73 de Brian/K3KO

On 12/18/2016 12:40 PM, K9ZTV wrote:

The R.L. Drake Company referred to the zeroing or beating indicators as "canary chirps,"  the goal 
being to slow the "chirping" until there was a steady tone indicating you were then dead-on.  I 
still find that the most descriptive way to tell someone how to identify the pulsing when doing the Reference 
Calibration against WWV in a K3 (at the highest frequency you can copy them). The trick is to get the right 
balance in volume between WWV's main carrier tone and the K3's sidetone so you can hear the 
"chirps."

Kent, K9ZTV


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Re: [Elecraft] Checking VFO accuracy using WWV

[K9ZTV]

The R.L. Drake Company referred to the zeroing or beating indicators as "canary 
chirps,"  the goal being to slow the "chirping" until there was a steady tone 
indicating you were then dead-on.  I still find that the most descriptive way 
to tell someone how to identify the pulsing when doing the Reference 
Calibration against WWV in a K3 (at the highest frequency you can copy them). 
The trick is to get the right balance in volume between WWV's main carrier tone 
and the K3's sidetone so you can hear the "chirps." 

Kent, K9ZTV


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