Good Afternoon, Jonathan
re: Not entirely. In his Republic, the rulers were the
Guardians, wise folks like himself, who live in
poverty and rule benevolently. Plato for Senate!
That was Plato's idea of how things 'should be', not how they were. In
any case, he did not see himself
Good Morning, Michael
re: Why the lack of public participation?
Our elections lack public participation because the election methods
extant do not allow, much less encourage, public participation in the
selection of candidates for public office or public deliberation on
public issues.
On Nov 3, 2011, at 9:17 AM, Fred Gohlke wrote:
re: Why the lack of public participation?
Our elections lack public participation because the election methods extant
do not allow, much less encourage, public participation in the selection of
candidates for public office or public
Good Afternoon, Michael
As I was studying your October 29th 'expanded outline' so I could
comment on it, I read your later responses. This led to an extensive
review of the posts regarding A structural fault in society owing to a
design flaw in the electoral system going back to the first of
Good Morning, Michael
re: ... I've corrected the passage to read:
... the individual voters do not intercommunicate *as
such* to make a decision; therefore no valid decision
can be extracted from the result.
It is often impractical for voters to communicate through
I thought / think that
- voluntary participation in whatever clubs, with possibility to influence
others, and with possibility to vote in line with the club discussions or even
agree to vote that way does not limit one's liberty to do whatever one wants
- one limitation to liberty could be the
On 19.10.2011, at 1.14, Michael Allan wrote:
But maybe if you form a small club (or a large club (=party)) that
discusses and finds an agreement on how to vote. Then maybe you get
the power that you want.
Only at the cost of political liberty. To allow a flaw in the
electoral system to
Hi, Michael
In describing the design flaw in the electoral process at:
http://zelea.com/project/autonomy/a/fau/fau.xht#fla
you say:
The formal aggregate of votes in the count engine does not
correspond to an actual aggregate of voters in the social
world. The individual votes were
On 18.10.2011, at 5.57, Michael Allan wrote:
Hi Juho,
Thanks for giving me a chance to explain. It's a difficult thesis to
summarize. Nobody has admitted to being convinced by it yet. At the
same time, no serious flaws have been found.
Yes, also I have not found any actual flaws, but
Juho Laatu wrote:
True. My vote has probably not made any difference in any of the
(large) elections that I have ever participated. ...
You are not really in doubt, are you? You would remember if your vote
made a difference.
I think I had my fair share of power (1 / number of voters).
Well,
On 17.10.2011, at 23.33, Michael Allan wrote:
Juho Laatu wrote:
True. My vote has probably not made any difference in any of the
(large) elections that I have ever participated. ...
You are not really in doubt, are you? You would remember if your vote
made a difference.
Most elections
Hi Juho,
Yes, there are many additional factors. Already a vote without any
discussions between voters can be seen as a part of a complex
process. At lest the input that the voter got was complex, even if
the voter did not produce any output in his environment. Also the
margin of the victory
True. My vote has probably not made any difference in any of the (large)
elections that I have ever participated. But on the other hand, was that the
intention of the election? Probably not. I guess the intention was to elect
those alternatives that had wide support. Allowing me to change the
On 7.10.2011, at 12.19, Michael Allan wrote:
Imagine one person is nodding
in agreement to a proposal, while another is shaking her head.
We could ask, What effect did this voter *as such*
have on the decision that was reached, or anything that followed from
it? In most cases, the answer
Dear Juho and Fred,
Your vote never made a difference. Most people feel uncomfortable
or perplexed in this knowledge, and I think the feeling indicates
that something's wrong.
Juho Laatu wrote:
I'm not sure that most people feel uncomfortable with this. Many
have learned to live as part
On 7/22/64 2:59 PM, Michael Allan wrote:
Dear Juho and Fred,
Your vote never made a difference. Most people feel uncomfortable
or perplexed in this knowledge, and I think the feeling indicates
that something's wrong.
Juho Laatu wrote:
I'm not sure that most people feel uncomfortable with
At 04:30 AM 10/3/2011, Michael Allan wrote:
http://zelea.com/project/autonomy/a/fau/fau.xht
ABSTRACT
An individual vote has no effect on the formal outcome of the
election; whether the vote is cast or not, the outcome is the same
James, Juho and Fred, Thanks very much for looking at the argument.
An individual vote has no effect on the formal outcome of the
election; whether the vote is cast or not, the outcome is the same
regardless.
James Gilmour wrote:
These statements worry me - surely they contain a logical
Good Morning, Michael
I am not entirely clear on the flow of logic in your abstract, but I get
the sense that you're saying voters should be able to cast their vote
and have it, too ...
Voters are not pieces of cake. The act of voting does not
remove their needs and desires from the
Thanks very much for replying, Fred. Metagovernment is a good list
for these kind of discussions, as good as any I know. You'd
definitely be welcome there. I'll look up the reference you mention,
and respond more fully soon. In the meantime, I wish to share an
updated abstract, plus a first
Michael Allan Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:31 AM
ABSTRACT
An individual vote has no effect on the formal outcome of the
election; whether the vote is cast or not, the outcome is the
same regardless.
These statements worry me - surely they contain a logical flaw? If these
On 3.10.2011, at 11.56, James Gilmour wrote:
Michael Allan Sent: Monday, October 03, 2011 9:31 AM
ABSTRACT
An individual vote has no effect on the formal outcome of the
election; whether the vote is cast or not, the outcome is the
same regardless.
These statements worry me
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