Re: Translation of the Org mode manual (was: Translation of manuals (was: SES manual French translation))
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > This is not true. We can generate a precise TeXinfo markup from Org > files even now using export snippets: @@texinfo:@@ I know that it is possible to convert Org format to Texinfo. I am raising a different issue. I think we are miscommunicating. The question is not whether Org can be translated to Texingo. The question is whether Org format can represent all the distinctions that Texinfo represents. Or, equivalently, is it possible to translate Texinfo text to Org format and then back to Texinfo format without losing any information? Last I looked, that was not possible, because of the issue I explained in my previous message. If things have improved and Org format is now capable of doing this, I will consider that good news. > Another question is that having native Org mode constructs for > manual-specific markup would make things less verbose and ad-hoc. To handle GNU manuals using Org format would not require a feature like that. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Translation of the Org mode manual (was: Translation of manuals (was: SES manual French translation))
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > 1. Org mode manual itself, just like the other Emacs manuals may need to > be translated. However, Org mode manual source is written in Org mode > format, not texi. It is just transformed to texi as one of the export > options. Using Org format for the source of a document, and converting it to texi for processing (for instance, through TeX) would be a fine method to use, if it worked. But it doesn't actually work. The problem is that it cannot work, given Org format as it exists now. It cannot properly represent manuals that use the GNU standard style because it does not have ways to represent all the distinctions that are needed. Texinfo implements semantic markup, and is designed for multiple output formats, including Info, HTML, and DVI (whence also PDF). Two different markup constructs that look the same in one output format may look different in another. All these design decisions were the result of long thought. For instance, italic face can be the result of @dfn, @var, @emph, @cite and @i. Each of them has a meaning -- which one to use is not a matter of taste. @cite is used around the title of a book. @dfn is used around the first use of a term, to say it is being defined. @emph is used to indicate emphasis. @var is used around a metasyntactic variable. @i means "use italic for this" and does not say why. It is a escape for situations that Texinfo has no specific way to describe. These five commands produce the same output in DVI/PDF, but different output in Info. I think there must be 15 different Texinfo commands to generate fixed-width bold text in DVI/PDF. To represent a manual source in Org format and do the job right is not possible with Org format as it is now. To make it possible requires extending Org format so it can make all the distinctions Texinfo can make. I would like Org format to be extended in this way. Texinfo format is often misunderstood. People write GNU manuals without knowing of all these constructs, so they use the wrong construct. If Org format were extended to do _the whole job_, we could convert all manuals to Org format once and for all. A few years ago I raised this idea, but nobody wanted to work on it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: bug#68687: [PATCH] Use text/org media type
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > It may or may not depending on user customization `mm-inline-media-tests'. > Just like with text/html, application/javascript, text/x-sh, images, > etc. I looked at the definition of that option, and at the function `mm-display-inline-fontify' that it calls. That function is nontrivial, so I can't tell, in a short time, what it does and doesn't do. > Even when text/org is rendered using Org mode, there is nothing > pressuring people to use Org mode there. It is just visuals. Org major > mode is not activated. That is one good thing. Maybe that means it's fine. But you've told me little about what things `mm-display-inline-fontify' does, only that they do not include selecting Org mode. Could you please tell me the main things it _does_ do? > Max is referring to various security issues with evaluating code inside > Org mode buffers. They are known, but not relevant to Org text being > displayed in email MUA - Org never evaluates any code automatically > without user explicitly asking for it. I understand now. I agree, that is not an issue for this specific point. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: bug#68687: Org mode code evaluation (was: bug#68687: [PATCH] Use text/org media type)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I did not imply that Org mode is safe. I directly said that there are > security issues and that they are known. Could you plesae post a pointer to a desciption of them? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: bug#68687: [PATCH] Use text/org media type
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I think Richard lacks the broader context: that text/org is supposed > to appear in the Content-Type header in email messages, and the MUA is > supposed to display this content in received email messages according > to user expectations, which generally follow how Org buffers display > text. Thanks/ I had a feeling that it was something along roughtly those lines, but I was not sure. Now I know. I am concerned that the actions described above would tend to embed Org format and Org mode more deeply into Emacs usage. Suppose A and B are Org users. If A knows this, and mails B a message which contains text labaled as text/org, that won't make anyone unhappy. No one would have a reason to complain. But what if C mails a message to D with text labeled as text/org and D is not an Org user? Will that cause Emacs to load Org? It should not. What will Gnus do when the user readss a message with text labaled as text/org? What will Rmail do? What will MH-E do? These are crucial questions because the answers would determine whether this feature pressures people to use Org mode or not. We need concrete answers because only that would enable us to see cleary now whether the feature would do that if in use. Max Nikulin wrote: Received or fetched Org > files must be treated with some precautions, but it is another story. I was not aware of this issue. Let's look at it concretely now so we can determine what its implications are. Have people already written a list of these precautions? If so, I'd like to see it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: bug#68687: [PATCH] Use text/org media type
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] What is the purpose for which text/org would be used? In what situations would we want to send files in Org format and why would it be useful to formally label them? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [DISCUSSION] Possible inclusion of org-capture.el into Emacs core (was: [ELPA] New package: jami-bot and org-jami-bot)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] NOTE: Is it absolute;y necessary to cross post to emacs-devel and emacs-orgmode? > Similar to jami-bot providing a dbus interface for Jami to interact with > Emacs, Org mode has org-protocol.el providing command line and URL > handler interface that is nearly independent of Org mode itself in its > core function: Could you please explain in a few lines what sort of jobs org-protocol.el does? The doc you sent ;; 1.) Add this to your init file (.emacs probably): ;; ;; (require 'org-protocol) ;; ;; 3.) Ensure emacs-server is up and running. ... describes in a low-level way _how_ to use it, but in order to think about that, the first thing I need to know is _what jobs it can do_. > With org-protocol, one can also make Emacs receive data from browser and > perform any action defined by custom handler function - all fully > configurable and not necessarily related to Org mode. Could you state a few examples? Also, how is this related to Org mode? Why call it "org-protocol" rather tham some other name? > 17.16.3 The open-source protocol > ... The open-source handler is designed to help with editing local > sources when reading a document.. What document does that come from? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [DISCUSSION] Possible inclusion of org-capture.el into Emacs core (was: [ELPA] New package: jami-bot and org-jami-bot)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Similar to jami-bot providing a dbus interface for Jami to interact with > Emacs, Org mode has org-protocol.el providing command line and URL > handler interface that is nearly independent of Org mode itself in its > core function: Could you please explain in a few lines what sort of jobs org-protocol.el does? The doc you sent ;; 1.) Add this to your init file (.emacs probably): ;; ;; (require 'org-protocol) ;; ;; 3.) Ensure emacs-server is up and running. ... describes in a low-level way _how_ to use it, but in order to think about it, the first thing I need to know is _what it can do_. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Completion of links to man pages
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > It seems, I was not the only person who had an impression that `woman' > is the Emacs way to read man pages. I have no idea concerning its > origin, perhaps some pages and comments I had seen on the net. This suggests that running M-x woman should display a message saying to use M-x man instead. The message could add this The name M-x man refers to the old Unix command `man', which is short for "manual". Its purpose is to read pages of the manual. Mx- woman was a joke based on that name. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
> > 3. There is no requirement to install non-free software to use > > ob-sql.el. The software is fully functional using a free RDMS like > > postgres. > Yes, but there is requirement to install in order to use ob-sql.el > __with :engine set to non-free option__. Do you mean, "to use ob-sql.el with nonfree program Foo, there is a requirement to install Foo"? I think so. That's true, but it's not a problem. That's not what we mean when we say "a requirement to install nonfree software." -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: bug#59882: Multiple versions of Org in load-path problem
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >> I don't run Debian or Ubuntu anymore. However, I do recall that debian > >> does use a modified Emacs startup which is not part of the standard > >> Emacs distribution. They do this to enable the ability to have multiple > >> versions of Emacs installed at the same time. Would we like to add a feature like that to Emacs? I don't know how much work it would be, but I think it would be a desirable change if it is easy. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > I think it is a good idea to document the reasoning for these > > decision. But I think it does not necessarily have to be centralized > > in one file for all of Emacs. Another alternative, also natural, > > would be to describe these decisions with the code that implements the > > support. > Will file header be a good place? It's a reasonable candidate. > Note that there is little point adding the reasons behind supporting > non-free software if they cannot be easily found. Ideally, it should be > a standard place documented as code convention. Then, people can > consistently check the reasons (or lack of) behind each individual > non-free software support decision. That is a valid point. Sorry for the delay. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > This raises two questions. > > > > 1. For this purpose, what kind of thing is "the Oracle Database"? > > a. A library to link with? > > b. A program to run in a subprocess? > It is program that runs in a subprocess. > > c. A server running SaaSS? > Theoretically it could be as access may be network based. > But according to my knowledge this product is proprietary and may be > downloaded and run on users' computer or network computers. Any nonfree program that users can install to run in a subprocess, they can easily arrange to communicate with through sockets over the net. Thus, supporting a case of (b) implies supporting also the scenarion (c). So, if our rules say that (b) is ok in a certain case, we need not worry separately about (c). > > 2. How does Emacs communicate with that thing? > > a. By function calls within a process? > Yes. Based on the details you gave, I think we are miscommunicating. You're saying that a Lisp program communicates with the Oracle database through calls to other Lisp packages -- but that doesn't address this question. Those other Lisp packages are free and running inside Emacs. This question is how Emacs communicates with the Oracle database program. > (defcustom sql-oracle-program "sqlplus" > "Command to start sqlplus by Oracle. If it uses comint mode, it is talking with that program through a pty or pipe. So the answer is c. > > b. Via shared memory? > > c. Via a pty or pipe? > > d. Via sockets? But this text from a doc string makes me concerned > On Windows, \"sqlplus\" usually starts the sqlplus \"GUI\". In order > to start the sqlplus console, use \"plus33\" or something similar. > You will find the file in your Orant\\bin directory." because it isn't clear. It is sketchy. An expert on running that database on Windows might understand it, but someone who only knows about Emacs can't even try. How does sql.el communicate with sqlplus on Windows? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > However, I gues the point remains, sql.el and ob-sql.el support a number > of non-free RDMS Can someone post a verified list of which of them are non-free? Someone posted a list of a few, which I cannot find now in my saved inboxes, but I think it included oracle, mysql, vertica? and a fourth one else (what was it?). Does sql.el handle any other nonfree ones aside from those? > and I think this is fine given that That is something we should double-check in accord with the stated policy. But first we need to know which ones to check. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Would it then make sense to note the reasons why we support one or > another non-free software in a separate file like etc/NON-FREE-SUPPORT? I think it is a good idea to document the reasoning for these decision. But I think it does not necessarily have to be centralized in one file for all of Emacs. Another alternative, also natural, would be to describe these decisions with the code that implements the support. > Also, what about Emacs supporting MS DOS and old versions of Windows? Do > they still qualify as popular software? There is no need to include version numbers when we judge whether a program is well known. People are far more likely to think about a program name than about its various version numbers. If a program was once well known, but its use is dwindling, it's not something we have to worry about informing people about. More people will have heard of it in the past, than will want to switch to it now. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > 1. For this purpose, what kind of thing is "the Oracle Database"? > > a. A library to link with? > > b. A program to run in a subprocess? > > c. A server running SaaSS? > None of the above! I found that reply tantalizing but not helpful. Fortunately, others have given helpful replies, from which I could see there is no ethical problem in using sql.el to run the Oracle data base software. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I am not sure about SaaSS - even postgresql (free software) may be used > as a service provider by running it on server the user does not control. For sure, it CAN be used that way. If a Lisp package is designed to work with a subprocess, a user can certainly rig it to talk with a remote server. It is the nature of free software that people can customize it, even so as to do something foolish with it. When a user does this, it's per responsibility, not ours. We should not distribute specific support or recommendations to use the Lisp package in that particular way. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The 'support' is essentially specialised comint based interfaces tweaked > to work with the various SQL database engine command line clients such > as psql for Postgres and sqlplus for Oracle. This involves codes to use > the comint buffer to send commands/regions to the SQL client and read > back the results and run interactive 'repl' like sessions with the > client. Thanks. Based on our general policies, it is ok to do this. It is ok for Postgres because that is free software. It is ok for Oracle because that is widely known. Ihor Radchenko wrote: > It is hard to define "well known". For me, oracle and mssql databases > are well-known (just by company name), while saphana and vertica are > not. I have never heard of saphana or vertica, which suggests that maybe this is an issue. However, I don't know the database field, so I am the wrong one to judge. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Would someone please tell me more concretely what kind of "support" > > this is? > You can find interactive support in `sql' library, functions such as: > M-x sql-oracle > which supports proprietary Oracle Database: This raises two questions. 1. For this purpose, what kind of thing is "the Oracle Database"? a. A library to link with? b. A program to run in a subprocess? c. A server running SaaSS? 2. How does Emacs communicate with that thing? a. By function calls within a process? b. Via shared memory? c. Via a pty or pipe? d. Via sockets? The answers are crucial for thinking about what our moral ideas and policies say about this case. > (sql-ms BUFFER) > Run osql by Microsoft as an inferior process. This suggests an answer to the first question. More precisely, it suggests that the answer is b _at least some of the time_. > > Are they nonfree programs, or are they SaaSS? > They are proprietary programs that may be also SaaSS. Does the Emacs support offer to talk with a remote web server? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Supporting non-free SQL clients in ob-sql (was: [PATCH] ob-sql: Add support for Athena)
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Because we already support Orcale, SAP Hana, MSSql and Vertico for example. Would someone please tell me more concretely what kind of "support" this is? Which GNU package supports them, and how? Also, what kind of things are those? Are they nonfree programs, or are they SaaSS? Some of them I recognize as nonfree programs, but some names I don't recognize at all. There are situations where it is acceptable for a GNU package to support its use together with certain nonfree programs. Mainly when the nonfree program so well known that this support mainly encourage people who already use that nonfree program to start using the GNU package with it, and is unlikely to do the converse. See the GNU Maintainers Guide for more details. However, use with a SaaSS system (service as a software substitute) is a different issue (though it has much in common). I'd like to think about it and ask advisors for advice. These details can help me start to think about it. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [HELP] Fwd: Org format as a new standard source format for GNU manuals
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I would just like to point out that anyone familiar with writing a > Texinfo-format manual who wants to combine this with Org mode > would likely just want to embed Org constructs, like Org tables in > the manual; not to use Org as a formatter that exports individual > source blocks to form a Texinfo manual (literate programming > style). The proposal I thought I was responding to is different from both of those. It was to make Org format an option for the source format for a whole GNU manual. One that could generate the same output formats that we now generate from Texinfo, and would be able to produce a well-formatted printed manual via TeX. This does not inherently require imply generating Texinfo format from Org format. Texinfo format is a source format, not an output format. However, generating Texinfo format as an intermediate format might be advantageous as a way to feed the Org-format manual through TeX to get a well-formatted printed manual. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [HELP] Fwd: Org format as a new standard source format for GNU manuals
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The latter. We currently need a new syntax element that will allow all > the things available in Texinfo markup syntax. > We have decided that we do need such new syntax. We are discussing how > the new syntax will look like. We will implement the syntax in future. > Once implemented, the new syntax will open the road to add Texinfo > markup structures into Org export backends. I'm glad you are working on this. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [HELP] Fwd: Org format as a new standard source format for GNU manuals
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > For some context, in order to support specialized syntax for manuals, we > may first need to implement the discussed special blocks export and > inline special blocks: > 1. https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87y1yr9gbl@gmail.com/ > 2. https://list.orgmode.org/orgmode/87edzqv4ha.fsf@localhost/ > The above links aim to introduce export functionality that we now have > for links to special blocks and new custom markup elements. I am > referring to > 1. Ability to create new custom element types programmatically > 2. Ability to define how to :export the custom element types I'm not sure of the meaning of some of those words. Does this mean that people are implementing those distinctions in Org mode? Or does it mean someone has proposed to implement them in Org mode but not yet started actually writing it? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > PCI compliance is not required by law but is considered > mandatory through court precedent. The crucial questions would be: required _of whom_, in what circumstances? > > I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code > > while talking with Stripe. > You could try replacing it in your browser. Yes, that's what I'm thinking of. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > "Note: To be PCI compliant, you must load Stripe.js directly from > https://js.stripe.com. You cannot include it in a bundle or host > it yourself. This package wraps the global Stripe function > provided by the Stripe.js script as an ES module." That is hard for me to understand, since I don't know what "PCI compliant" means (or who is expected to comply with "PCI" or why). Also, what is a "ES module" and what are the implications of that? I wonder if users could run the free version of that JS code while talking with Stripe. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > That’s when banks take up Taler. Before they do, any intermediary can > take that role and use Taler to pool money so it can be sent in larger > regular transactions. If people make it work, I'll cheer. Regarding GitHub, the thigs we already condemned it for are much worse for the community than Copialot. Promoting bad license practices has been a disaster. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > GNU Taler requires an intermediary to clear the coins. I am not sure what that means. Could you state in different words what job that "intermediary" would do? In fact, the Taler developers are hoping that banks will play two roles: issuing Taler tokens to spend, and redeeming those that people receive as payment. This would again > be where a platform like liberapay would come in. I don't know whether that is possible -- I suggest you talk with the Taler developers about it. > To take up criticism before it becomes a discussion: While Github is > annoying, you can read it without running proprietary Javascript (I just > checked that by opening it in eww), and you can interact with it using > email. See https://www.gnu.org/software/repo-criteria-evaluation.html for what's wrong with Github. Some actions, such as creating an account, appear to require running nonfree JS code. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > As it happens though, Stripe seem to have open sourced all of their frontend > > code — all of these repos <https://github.com/stripe> seem to be MIT-licensed Wow! If that is what it might be, it would be great news. But we had better verify it carefully, because it sounds too good to be true. Would someone like to check the details thoroughly? Here are some questions to check: 1. Does "front-end code" mean the JavasCript code for their payment pages? Or else, what is it? Is it code to use in apps? The case that we're concerned with is payment to web sites. 2. Did their release include _all_ of the client code that a user must run in order to make a payment to a web site that uses Stripe? 3. Do their payment pages actually send that source code, as released? Or do they send use minified or a compiled version? Either way. does it exactly correspond to the released source code? 4. Did they label the code they send, for LibreJS to recognize? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > It seems odd that our embrace of software freedom should keep us > from collaborating as fully as we'd like. It's not odd at all. As we see various activities pushed into unjust computing, which requires nonfree software and online dis-services, remaining free sometimes becomes difficult. You may have to refuse to do certsin things "everyone" does. If one of those things happens to be useful for working on GNU, that's not surprising as tyranny marches on. The GNU Project, as part of the free software movement, condemns those systems and calls them illegitimate. How does this relate to what GNU contributors say and do about those systems? Mostly it doesn't. What each contributor privately does with computers isn't the GNU Project's business. We have never tried to make any rules about what computing contributors can or can't use. But we do have rules about what computing they should promote publicly in connection with GNU. For instance, if you want to buy train tickets and maintain your freedom, you need to pay cash at a station. If you buy them by internet, running nonfree JavaScript and identifying yourself, that is a loss to your freedom, which we consider unfortunate. But it doesn't oppose the GNU Project's work, so we don't need rules about that. It's up to you. However, if the web pages for a GNU package were to suggest people buy train tickets via internet, that would creste a moral conflict: promoting, in a GNU web site, the very practices that the GNU Project aims to put an end to. This is what we have rules about. Not rules about whether you or anyone can run a nonfree program. But rules, yes, against publicly legitimizing, or steering people toward using, nonfree programs, in direct connection with the GNU Project. You can say whatever you like if you do it in another context with no visible relation to GNU. The point is that you shouldn't give the wrong idea of where the GNU Project stands on this issue. Meanwhile, we have a potential solution for donating money: GNU Taler. It shows promise, for the long term: even national banks are starting to get interested in it. (See taler.net.) But banking systems are not set up to interact with it today. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I don't see this discussion leading to anything if it is only about > personal preferences and views. It's about the GNU Project's moral stand (nonfree software is an injustice, and encouraging people to use it is wrong), and what follows from that. It's also about the GNU project policy of not steering the public to run nonfree-software. You can find that in the GNU Coding Standards, node References. People asked questions such as "What would you do?" so I answered them. > More seriously, it is peculiar that you do not see anything problematic in > promoting businesses of entities who rely on non-free software for their > business. To see that as problematic would be a rather extreme position. Do you hold that position? Do you know anyone who does? Do you know anyone that boycotts or rebukes businesses for running non-free software internally? I don't. The GNU Project takes a less extreme position: if a business asks customers to use nonfree software to communicate with the business, we advise people to refuse to use that software. Sometimes it's possible to do business with that company and avoid the nonfree software. Sometimes it's not. As this example shows, there are various different kinds of scenarios involving businesses and nonfree software. The GNU Project makes these distinctions and treats them differently. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Bank uses free software on their system? I suppose that would depend on the bank. It's the bank's affair. If the bank's software is free, the bank enjoys freedom. Otherwise, the nonfree software denies the bank freedom. Either way, it has no effect on us. We are not running that software, so it does not deny us our freedom. I would advise any bank to insist on free software, but if it doesn't listen, that is the bank's loss, not ours. I feel sorry for the bank for this error, but that is not a reason to boycott it. > Or are we to merely shift to services where nonfree software runs on > somebody else's computer? Who is morally responsible for running the nonfree software is the most important question, but you dismiss that as an insignificant detail. > Go to an internet kiosk and make the payment? That is a fune way way. However, I usually mail a check instead. It doesn't require me to run any nonfree software (it doesn't use software at all), and I can do it from home. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Clarification: Links to Liberapay do work without running non-free > software (you can try opening the link yourself). It is only the payment > process that does not work. I am using metonymy, saying "the link works" to mean "the link's functionality works." It makes the wording shorter, and everyone can understand it -- including you, if you try. What purpose is served by refusing to understand? -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I do make a serious point: by linking to liberapay who are actively > searching for ways to get rid of proprietary software, those links are > most likely to become usable without proprietary software once a > practical method to donate without proprietary software exists. I agree that links to liberapay might someday work without the donor's running nonfree software. But that is not likely to occur this year, and for it to occur in this decade is a long shot. So please don't put links to liberapay into GNU package web pages. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Yes, sad to say they should not directly offer donation methods. > So they should rather link to liberapay, so it is not a direct offer? You can't make a serious point by twisting words. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > AFAIU, there are no nonfree payment services, except some crypto > payments. In Europe, at least, there is bank transfer. If you go to a bank branch, I think, you can do transfers to someone else's account without running any particular software. > So, does what you say imply that GNU packages should not provide any > donation options, except crypto (via free payment software)? Yes, sad to say they should not directly offer donation methods. The FSF manages to accept credit card donations without making donors run nonfree software. But it is not easy to arrange that. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running > > any nonfree software? Including nonfree Javascript software send > > by the site itself? > > > > And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money > > without running nonfree software including JS? > > > > If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good. > > Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the problem. > AFAIU, no and no. See > https://list.orgmode.org/CAFm0skG_-80iQ-TO-hduvVt_GHQWosOHBeHJ61dyA=wng8v...@mail.gmail.com/T/#m322d74a1efb4e3773ae2df7b6bda4505c4b5fa15 This is disappointing but not surprising, GNU packages should not steer people towards running nonfree software. As a consequence, they should not suggest people donate using payment services that _require_ the donor to run a nonfree program. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I have been recently exploring Liberapay and stumbled upon > https://liberapay.com/about/teams. Is it possible to make a donation through Liberapay without running any nonfree software? Including nonfree Javascript software send by the site itself? And is it possible for the intended recipients to receive the money without running nonfree software including JS? If the answers are yes and yes, maybe that system is ethical and good. Otherwise, it is not a solution, only a different variation of the problem. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Ethical problems with MathJax as default - Was: Faulty SVG width
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > On the other hand, I think it is more preferable and more > privacy-conscious to forbid loading from Cloudflare and use a local copy > of MathJax embedded in LibreJS instead: I agree. Perhaps GNU/Linux distros should start packaging MathJax for local installation, so that the local copy will be used instead. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Ethical problems with MathJax as default - Was: Faulty SVG width
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] In general, being free software does not automatically assure that the program has no malicious features. What it does is assure that the users can check the source code for any malicious features, and fix any that are spotted. > I understand the problem, however I do not see why LibreJS could not > whitelist MathJax. It is a technical limitation of current LibreJS > implementation, not the problem of software freedom. Perhaps it should do that. I think we could use more help to maintain LibreJS. Anyone who would like to help, please write to maintain...@gnu.org. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The FSF accepts credit card payments without Javascript, thanks to a special arrangement with a credit card processor. But it is not easy to get a credit card processor to accept you as a client that way. -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: Links to javascript-based websites from orgmode.org: Paypal and Github
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I think we should consider two separate issues: (1) whether the > donation mechanism requires users to load non-free Javascript and (2) > whether the support mechanism is from an organization that actually > supports Free Software maintainers and developers. I think both of these criteria are fitting _for a GNU package_. In my own life, I might make payments for various purposes, some which are not about software at all. So I wouldn't insist on (2) when deciding whether to buy something or donate to a cause. But I would always insist on (1). -- Dr Richard Stallman (https://stallman.org) Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: LSP is Microsoft's patented protocol - Re: Emacs as an Org LSP server
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Daniel Ravicher found 283 software patents that, if upheld as valid by the courts, could potentially be used to support patent claims upon the Linux Kernel. I wonder how many more for Free Software in general! I used to estimate around 100,000 patents for a 2000-era GNU/Linux distro, based solely on the size of code base. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: LSP is Microsoft's patented protocol - Re: Emacs as an Org LSP server
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Do you have evidence it is not patented? That sort of question is not useful to ask. No one _ever_ has evidence that any given thing is not patented. Unless we see a specific practical problem, the thing to do is just ignore the danger of patents. The danger does exist, but worrying about it in advance is futile and damaging. It is like worrying that a meteorite might fall and hit you. There is a small chance of that, but worrying about it is useless. -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Keep Org mode submodules in Emacs, please!
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] [Resending to cater to prissy mailer] Redesigning Org mode so that its secondary features are more modular, and integrate better individually into Emacs, would be a big improvement. When the reorganization is finished, please keep all of the code inside Emacs. Each piece should be in Emacs core, or in GNU ELPA, whichever seems more convenient. Those are places we can refer to. Please do not move any of the code to MELPA, because we will not refer to it there. I am not on the emacs-orgmode list. Russell, if you get this directly but it does not come through the list, would you please forward it there? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Keep Org mode submodules in Emacs, please!
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Redesigning Org mode so that its secondary features are more modular, and integrate better individually into Emacs, would be a big improvement. When the reorganization is finished, please keep all of the code inside Emacs. Each piece should be in Emacs core, or in GNU ELPA, whichever seems more convenient. Those are places we can refer to. Please do not move any of the code to MELPA, because we will not refer to it there. I am not on the emacs-orgmode list. Russell, if you get this directly but it does not come through the list, would you please forward it there? -- Dr Richard Stallman Chief GNUisance of the GNU Project (https://gnu.org) Founder, Free Software Foundation (https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > you go to Github > for the most up to date version it is GPLv3 > https://github.com/stathissideris/ditaa/blob/master/LICENSE This is an illustration of the confused and harmful license practices that Github has encouraged. That file does not tell us how the code is licensed. It could be under GPL version 3 only, or GPL version 3-or-later. This is a crucial question. MAYBE something else in the package will say. Or maybe not. The proper way to use the GPL is to put a license notice in each source file, which would give the answer to this question. However, Github has taught people not to bother with this. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[I sent this message a week ago but did not get a response. Could we get the discussion moving again?] [[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other > external stuff Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation. The ability to work with some other free software package (for instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all. Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some separate job and that's what the user wants to do. However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package installation system by telling users to install things directly. Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests loading something else? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Just a little information: since Dropbox update their API to 2.0 > MobileOrg with this backend stopped to work, so anyone willing to use it > will have > to use either WebDAV, SSH or Local filesystem. AFAIK, there's no active > development of MobileOrg > in terms of having this issue [0] solved. This is actually good news. It means Android MobileOrg is almost ok. If someone wants to do a little work on Android MobileOrg, so it could go into f-droid, we could recommend its use. But the doc should be updated. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I've checked, and currently all of the references to MELPA tend to > encourage interested users to install outside, free, software. Could you tell me about these, one by one, off the list? (First, roughly how many are there?) -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > The [[https://github.com/MobileOrg/][iOS implementation]] for the > /iPhone/iPod Touch/iPad/ series of devices, was started by Richard > Moreland and is now in the hands of Sean Escriva. That should be deleted -- an iOS app is nonfree software. Android users > should check out > [[http://wiki.github.com/matburt/mobileorg-android/][MobileOrg > Android]] by Matt Jones. I addressed this at length in another message today. > For HTML you need to install Hrvoje Niksic's =htmlize.el= from > [[https://github.com/hniksic/emacs-htmlize][Hrvoje Niksic's > repository]]. That's been changed; I addressed this issue in another message today. > Fontified code chunks in LaTeX can be achieved using either the > listings package or the [[https://github.com/gpoore/minted][minted]] > package. Refer to ~org-export-latex-listings~ for details. Please verify that that is free software. (I expect that it is.) If it is free, then since it is not something that naturally ought to be part of Emacs, suggesting people get it elsewhere is ok. It would be good to refer to a mirror, not github. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > There's no changed text: the original message telling from where to > install htmlize was deleted. There's now only the error message > (which was there before) saying that htmlize is required. The real problem is that Emacs depends on something that ought to be part of Emacs but isn't. This change makes the problem less blatant, but doesn't really fix it. The change that has been made is good enough temporarily. if people are going to implement replacement code soon, we can leave it this way in the mean time. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] I asked > > Is the WebDAV server code free software? Can you talk to such a > > server without any nonfree client software? Fortunately, Nicolas Goaziou 's information shows that using WebDAV is no problem. > There are 2 other ways to use Android MobileOrg not included in the > worg page: > 1. SSH > 2. Local filesystem It sounds like modifying Android MobileOrg so it used only those methods plus WebDAV, and not Dropbox, could result in a free program that could be in f-droid. It would be useful for someone to do that and publish it under a different name. Once that gets done, it would be good to make Emacs encourage people to use _that version_ of Android MobileOrg. Until then, Emacs (including Org-mode) should not say or do anything that would be likely to lead users to use the existing MobileOrg. We should remove that text soon, and put in new text about the new version when that new version is available. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > There are a handful of references to MELPA inside Emacs. Are these to > be discouraged? The question is rather broad, so I can only say "it depends". Whether a reference to software outside Emacs is good or bad depends on its semantics -- that is, on what it says _about_ the software that it references -- and on circumstances. Here's a general answer in terms of rules and circumstances. The first question is, does the references tend to encourage, recommend, or lead users to install and use some outside software? If it doesn't, there isn't an issue. In that case, it would normally be a comment in the code, not a message shown to the Emacs user. If it does tend to lead users to install some program, the next question is, is that program free? If not, it may be a moral problem, but that depends. If the code encourages uses of Emacs by users of widely used nonfree program Foo, that's ok. If the code encourages use of nonfree program Foo by users of Emacs, that's bad, so we should remove the message _and_ the code immediately. If the other program is free, the next question is, should this job be done by part of Emacs, or should it be separate? If logically it should be a separate program, such as find, GCC or LaTeX, then it is fine to encourage Emacs users to install it and for Emacs to invoke it. If logically it should be part of Emacs, we should arrange to do the job with code that IS part of Emacs. We could do that by merging the program into Emacs, or packaging it with Emacs, if those are possible. Or we could do it by writing new code. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > This way, we'd still be able to point the users to a concrete > > address to get htmlize from, without directly pointing them to a > > proprietary platform. Further, we're not claiminig copyright or > > maintainership of the repo and we're merely mirroring it on a > > freedom-respecting platform along with Org itself. > I got approval from Hrvoje Nikšić that he was fine with your mirror[0]. > So I believe it should be OK reference that mirror repo in ox-html? No, it is not ok. We still need to replace htmlize. The deep problem with the reference to htmlize is that it blurs the distinction between Emacs itself and Lisp code that is not part of Emacs. We need to highlight that distinction, not blur it. Please leave the code to suggest loading htmlize deactivated. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > If that is the crucial point, then the recent change to Org already > took care of that, That depends on what the changed text actually says. I have not seen it; would you please send it to me? and there should be no rush to convert Org to using > htmlfontify, as this issue is now on the same level as the other > references to GitHub. Right? I wouldn't assume all those mentions are similar cases. This is a matter of details, and I have not seen them, so I don't know whether they are real problems or not. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] The crucial question here is whether Mobile.org is free software. If it is not, then GNU packages including their documentation should not mention it at all. See the chapter References in the GNU Coding Standards. What is the source license of Mobile.org? Does Mobile.org for Android link with any nonfree libraries, such as Google Play Library? Is it listed in f-droid.org? I don't think it is possible to have free apps for the iMonsters. This is because iOS does not allow users to install modified versions of apps, even if the app's source is released under a free license. Another issue is the suggestion to use DropBox. Normal use of Dropbox involves running nonfree JS software (see https://gnu.org/philosophy/javascript-trap.html), so we cannot recommend using Dropbox in the normal way. If there is a way to use Dropbox (for those operations that are necessary in this context) without running any nonfree client software, it would be ok to recommend using Dropbox _in that way_. (The operations necessary in this context must include creating an account.) However, the text you showed me does not include such a specific recommendation, so we have to eliminate it. We could reinsert the discussion of Dropbox if and when someone writes text to recommend a suitable specific way to use it. > [fn:146] An alternative is to use a WebDAV server. MobileOrg > documentation has details of WebDAV server configuration. Additional > help is at this [[https://orgmode.org/worg/org-faq.html#mobileorg_webdav][FAQ entry]]. Is this a way to use MobileOrg without Dropbox? Is the WebDAV server code free software? Can you talk to such a server without any nonfree client software? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > Additionally htmlfontify also requires several external tools > (according to the man page) which might not be available on all > platform Emacs and org-mode is used on: > - a copy of “find” which provides the “-path” predicate > - a copy of “sed” > - a copy of the “file” command Using them is not a problem. Those are part of the GNU system, and you can install the packages thru your distro's package system (but I expect they are preinstalled anyway). It might be an inconvenience on non-GNU systems. We give them low priority, but if you feel like writing code in htmlfontify to do without them, that is ok. I would expect it is not very hard to fix htmlfontify to solve all its practical drawbacks. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > > Note that the Org manual still talks about iOS and Android, which are > > not free either. That may or may not be a problem, depending on what it says. Can you show me what it actually says about those nonfree systems? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > As already pointed out by Nicolas Goaziou, org-mode also requires other > external stuff Those other cases may or may not be problems, depending on the situation. The ability to work with some other free software package (for instance, LaTeX0, if the user happens to use that, is no problem at all. Invoking some separate program, having no particular relationship with Emacs, is ok too if the idea is that that program does some separate job and that's what the user wants to do. However, Emacs should not try to bypass the distro's own package installation system by telling users to install things directly. Would you please show me the other cases where Org suggests loading something else? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > While there are numerous references > to GitHub and SourceForge in Emacs (and some components even nominally > live there, by the way, eg CEDET, cc-mode...), it's rare (unique?) for > running a GNU Emacs command to actually print "hey, go install > something from this non-ethical repository to finish doing what you > wanted to do". It's a different level of referencing. You've put your finger on the crucial point. Just talking about something that is in GitHub is ok. The problem is suggest users get it and run it. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > This makes it clearly the reference to Github that is the concern. The concern is _about_ the reference to GitHub, but what _makes it a problem_ is that it is suggesting that people load specific code from there. THAT is the issue here. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I removed htmlize URL from the error message. I also demoted the latter > to a plain message. So, if htmlize is not installed, source blocks are > not fontified. Thank you. That is a step forward. However, this is still not as it should be. What we really need to do is (1) get htmlize into Emacs, or (2) use some other facility that is in Emacs. Since it now appears we can't do (1), we should do (2). Someone mentioned that there was code in Emacs that we could use instead. It isn't a rush, now, but could someone please volunteer to do this, over the next few months? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [O] bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > I heard back from htmlize.el author Hrvoje Nikšić in his repo's issue thread[0]. Thanks for asking him. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] > >From what I remember, there is not objection to use that instead; it's > just that someone has to work on converting ox-html to use htmlfontify > instead of htmlize. To motivate people to do this, I say we shouild not ship another release with that reference to GitHub. Eli, do you agree? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
[O] bug#32722: 26.1; Org-publish depend on non-free platform ?
[[[ To any NSA and FBI agents reading my email: please consider]]] [[[ whether defending the US Constitution against all enemies, ]]] [[[ foreign or domestic, requires you to follow Snowden's example. ]]] Emacs should not advise people to load anything from outside Emacs (counting ELPA). So this needs to be deleted. If htmlize is useful, we should put it into Emacs. Is there some obstacle to that? -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation (https://gnu.org, https://fsf.org) Internet Hall-of-Famer (https://internethalloffame.org)
Re: [O] Emacs user conference
An Emacs user conference sounds useful if users are interested in it. But keep in mind that running a physical conference is a lot of work. If you have not done it before, you might think it is easy, and then be very surprised. -- Dr Richard Stallman President, Free Software Foundation 51 Franklin St Boston MA 02110 USA www.fsf.org www.gnu.org Skype: No way! That's nonfree (freedom-denying) software. Use Ekiga or an ordinary phone call
[Orgmode] Re: Xiki framework (wiki and tree emacs features)
Please point me to the part of OrgMode with features for navigating and searching the filesystem in a tree structure. I'm interested in checking i= t out and comparing it to xiki. The question that suggests itself to me is whether there is a way to separate out the various ideas, implemented by xiki and by Org mode, into modular features. ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Please use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
[Orgmode] Re: org mode, cvs emacs, and calendar.el
in my todo.org (as suggested on John Wiegley's howto) results in several annoying ?Bad sexp at line ?? because org-calendar-holiday calls the obsolete check-calendar-holidays. Isn't it easy to fix this in org mode? ___ Emacs-orgmode mailing list Remember: use `Reply All' to send replies to the list. Emacs-orgmode@gnu.org http://lists.gnu.org/mailman/listinfo/emacs-orgmode
