Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Sébastien Rey-Coyrehourcq]

Hi there,

Thanks for this opportunity,

I also made recent research on this 
(https://orgmode.org/list/2b19797780df800a5feafd47836b83e5426752e1.ca...@univ-rouen.fr/), 
and Bastien update the  corresponding org parser page :


https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tools/

Best regards,

Le 03/08/2021 à 11:14, Karl Voit a écrit :

Hi,

I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
are not Emacs.

I already have: GitHub, GitLab (exactly like GitHub), OrgModeWeb,
Orgzly, Orgro, Emacs, vim-orgmode.

What I need is information on much more tools.

I have set up a syntax checking file on
https://github.com/novoid/github-orgmode-tests/blob/master/orgmode_support.org
which also contains my current compatibility table for the most
basic set that makes sense as a Markdown-pendant outside of Emacs
according to my subjective judgement on Org mode at the bottom.

My focus is on tools that - at least - offer text formatting syntax
highlighting for *bold* /italic/ and so forth. The rest could be
"works as text but has no special support for outlining and more".

The goals is to emphasize that there are much more tools that allow
for viewing and/or editing data in Org mode syntax.

Since I don't have an iPhone, iOS-based tools supporting Org mode
syntax is very much appreciated.

Please do hand in more lines for the table either here, via email or
as a GitHub pull request.

Thank you!

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Bo Grimes]

On 8/6/21 10:00 AM, Karl Voit wrote:

* M  ‘quintus’ Gülker  wrote:

The problem with the approach you describe in this article is that the
org markup is not really separatable from org as a part of Emacs.


This is absolutely true and I'm going to try something to change
that in the upcoming months. ;-)




I'm not competent to decide, but it looks to me like the Sublime Text 
plugin  goes a long way towards 
this change.


--
Bo Grimes

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

* M  ‘quintus’ Gülker  wrote:
> Am 04. August 2021 um 12:57 Uhr +0200 schrieb Karl Voit:
>> My focus is on Emacs-independent tools, emphasizing the argument
>> that Org mode is not Emacs-only and its syntax does have
>> applications outside of Emacs as well because it is a well-defined
>> syntax in the sense of
>> https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
>
> It is an interesting post, thank you for sharing. Indeed, a list of
> non-Emacs org tools would benefit org's popularity as a markup
> language. Good luck with building one!
>
> The problem with the approach you describe in this article is that the
> org markup is not really separatable from org as a part of Emacs.

This is absolutely true and I'm going to try something to change
that in the upcoming months. ;-)

-- 
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Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Bo Grimes]

On Wednesday 04 August 2021 18:28:48 PM (-04:00), Tim Cross wrote:

> BTW has anyone mentioned the VS Code org plugin - I guess that would
> meet the criteria as an external, non-Emacs based tool for doing org
> style markup. I've not used it, but noticed it when I was playing with
> VS Code recently.
>

Sublime Text does also.  I use it occasionally, as well as a plugin to use 
Emacs keychords in Sublime. It's not org-mode, but if can be a decent way 
of reading org-files for someone who needs to but doesn't use Emacs.


And sorry if I missed it but I didn't see anyone mention 
https://github.com/200ok-ch/organice

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Tim Cross]

M. ‘quintus’ Gülker  writes:

> Am 04. August 2021 um 12:57 Uhr +0200 schrieb Karl Voit:
>> My focus is on Emacs-independent tools, emphasizing the argument
>> that Org mode is not Emacs-only and its syntax does have
>> applications outside of Emacs as well because it is a well-defined
>> syntax in the sense of
>> https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/
>
> It is an interesting post, thank you for sharing. Indeed, a list of
> non-Emacs org tools would benefit org's popularity as a markup
> language. Good luck with building one!
>
> The problem with the approach you describe in this article is that the
> org markup is not really separatable from org as a part of Emacs. By
> setting some variables, the user is able to change the org syntax
> itself and tailor it to his personal taste. The org manual even gives
> a simple example for adding new TODO states at § 5.2.1:
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Workflow-states.html
>
> While this might not fall under the restriction to basic facilities,
> it is perfectly possible to redefine variables that define the basic
> syntax as well. If one does not like stars for heading prefixes,
> it is possible change `org-heading-regexp' to whatever taste is at
> hand. A more practical example (which I use myself) is adding new link
> types as explained in § A.3 of the manual:
> https://orgmode.org/manual/Adding-Hyperlink-Types.html
>
> I recall from a discussion on this mailing list which I cannot seem to
> find at the moment that the inseparability of org syntax and org Emacs
> tooling is official position of the org developers. I think it was in
> the context of registering a MIME type for org. In any case, org as a
> syntax is a moving target, as the recent additions in form of
> citations have shown (see 
> https://blog.tecosaur.com/tmio/2021-07-31-citations.html).
>
> Note I am not at all opposed to your quest. In fact, I would love to
> have more widespread support for org so that it is easier for me to
> collaborate with non-Emacs users on plain text documents. I just
> wanted to point out difficulties of spreading org in the world outside
> Emacs, which may be hard hard to imagine, but does exist. As an aside,
> I hope that pandoc will receive support for org's new citation syntax
> soon.
>

While I'm skeptical about having any *real* org mode outside of Emacs, I
do think that having tools able to parse org files and possibly handle
basic things, like changing TODO states or following links, is possible.

While it is true that some of the org-mode features for adding new TODO
states or link types do make creation of such tools more complex, I'm
not sure these are really changes to the org syntax. TODO states, link
structure and section prefixes/markers are well defined elements and
syntactically consistent. External tools may need the ability for the
user to also set/define these structures to facilitate compatibility and
some tools already do this - for exmaple, beorg (iOS) lets you define
TODO states.

BTW has anyone mentioned the VS Code org plugin - I guess that would
meet the criteria as an external, non-Emacs based tool for doing org
style markup. I've not used it, but noticed it when I was playing with
VS Code recently. 

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[M . ‘quintus’ Gülker]

Am 04. August 2021 um 12:57 Uhr +0200 schrieb Karl Voit:
> My focus is on Emacs-independent tools, emphasizing the argument
> that Org mode is not Emacs-only and its syntax does have
> applications outside of Emacs as well because it is a well-defined
> syntax in the sense of
> https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/

It is an interesting post, thank you for sharing. Indeed, a list of
non-Emacs org tools would benefit org's popularity as a markup
language. Good luck with building one!

The problem with the approach you describe in this article is that the
org markup is not really separatable from org as a part of Emacs. By
setting some variables, the user is able to change the org syntax
itself and tailor it to his personal taste. The org manual even gives
a simple example for adding new TODO states at § 5.2.1:
https://orgmode.org/manual/Workflow-states.html

While this might not fall under the restriction to basic facilities,
it is perfectly possible to redefine variables that define the basic
syntax as well. If one does not like stars for heading prefixes,
it is possible change `org-heading-regexp' to whatever taste is at
hand. A more practical example (which I use myself) is adding new link
types as explained in § A.3 of the manual:
https://orgmode.org/manual/Adding-Hyperlink-Types.html

I recall from a discussion on this mailing list which I cannot seem to
find at the moment that the inseparability of org syntax and org Emacs
tooling is official position of the org developers. I think it was in
the context of registering a MIME type for org. In any case, org as a
syntax is a moving target, as the recent additions in form of
citations have shown (see 
https://blog.tecosaur.com/tmio/2021-07-31-citations.html).

Note I am not at all opposed to your quest. In fact, I would love to
have more widespread support for org so that it is easier for me to
collaborate with non-Emacs users on plain text documents. I just
wanted to point out difficulties of spreading org in the world outside
Emacs, which may be hard hard to imagine, but does exist. As an aside,
I hope that pandoc will receive support for org's new citation syntax
soon.

  -quintus

-- 
Dipl.-Jur. M. Gülker | https://mg.guelker.eu |For security:
Passau, Germany  | kont...@guelker.eu| () Avoid HTML e-mail
European Union   | PGP: see homepage | /\ http://asciiribbon.org

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

* Jens Neuhalfen  wrote:
> Hi
>
> on iOS the (really amazing) git client „working copy“ has support for org 
> rendering 

Interesting.

Could you provide me a syntax compatibility row according to the
table at the bottom of
https://github.com/novoid/github-orgmode-tests/blob/master/orgmode_support.org ?

> Jens
>
>> On 3. Aug 2021, at 11:32, Karl Voit  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi,
>> 
>> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
>> are not Emacs.
>> 
>> I already have: GitHub, GitLab (exactly like GitHub), OrgModeWeb,
>> Orgzly, Orgro, Emacs, vim-orgmode.
>> 
>> What I need is information on much more tools.
>> 
>> I have set up a syntax checking file on
>> https://github.com/novoid/github-orgmode-tests/blob/master/orgmode_support.org
>> which also contains my current compatibility table for the most
>> basic set that makes sense as a Markdown-pendant outside of Emacs
>> according to my subjective judgement on Org mode at the bottom.
>> 
>> My focus is on tools that - at least - offer text formatting syntax
>> highlighting for *bold* /italic/ and so forth. The rest could be
>> "works as text but has no special support for outlining and more".
>> 
>> The goals is to emphasize that there are much more tools that allow
>> for viewing and/or editing data in Org mode syntax.
>> 
>> Since I don't have an iPhone, iOS-based tools supporting Org mode
>> syntax is very much appreciated.
>> 
>> Please do hand in more lines for the table either here, via email or
>> as a GitHub pull request.
>> 
>> Thank you!
>> 
>> -- 
>> get mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML into Org-mode:
>>> get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
>> Personal Information Management > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/pim/
>> Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/
>> 
>> 
>
>


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Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

Hi Timothy,

* Timothy  wrote:
>
> Hi Karl,
>
> Just to check, have you seen  ?

Yes, but thanks for reminding!

-- 
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Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

Hi Tom,

Great list you compiled here!

* Tom Gillespie  wrote:
> Hi Karl,
>Great initiative. For many of the things in the table you will
> probably want to link to the underlying library For example for github
> and gitlab there is https://github.com/wallyqs/org-ruby (which I have
> been trying to find time to submit fixes to). I've linked a couple
> relevant threads and repos. Best!
> Tom
>
> python https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
> python https://github.com/karlicoss/orgparse
> python https://github.com/bjonnh/PyOrgMode
> racket https://github.com/tgbugs/laundry/tree/next
> racket https://github.com/jeapostrophe/org-mode
> racket https://github.com/antoineB/org-mode
> See https://github.com/tgbugs/laundry/blob/next/laundry/cursed.org for
> an org file that github fails to render
> clojure https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources/org.ebnf
>
> https://orgmode.org/list/ca+g3_pobab1qx1zv8q9sjfh4khuhvmanxp3xo7__6eosdxk...@mail.gmail.com/
> https://orgmode.org/list/ca+g3_pnj6pekqv+twfkwbd778xhw9wsfx+kjjhjsoreplhu...@mail.gmail.com/

Thanks for this list.

Since my focus is on non-Emacs tools, many of those tools do not
qualify although I found it very flattering that you were mentioning
Memacs to me. :-)

Parsers is a very good keyword. However, I will link
https://orgmode.org/worg/org-tools/index.html because it already has
a comprehensive list of Org mode parsers we should re-use here.
Maybe you want to add the racket parsers to it? (I can't contribute
to Worg any more because of some strange technical issue I can't
solve myself).

-- 
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Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

Hi,

Thanks for all the feedback so far. It's really cool!

I would like to add a clarification: the list of tools I'm
collecting is a list *outside* of Emacs. Emacs is mentioned once
because it needs to be there. However, I'm not interested in listing
Emacs-related modules, projects like Memacs (thanks for mentioning
that!), and such.

My focus is on Emacs-independent tools, emphasizing the argument
that Org mode is not Emacs-only and its syntax does have
applications outside of Emacs as well because it is a well-defined
syntax in the sense of
https://karl-voit.at/2017/09/23/orgmode-as-markup-only/

And if you do mention a tool, it would be awesome when you could add
a syntax compatibility check according to my table on
https://github.com/novoid/github-orgmode-tests/blob/master/orgmode_support.org
as well since I don't have the resources to try out all tools
myself.

Thanks!

* Karl Voit  wrote:
> Hi,
>
> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
> are not Emacs.
>
> I already have: GitHub, GitLab (exactly like GitHub), OrgModeWeb,
> Orgzly, Orgro, Emacs, vim-orgmode.
>
> What I need is information on much more tools.
>
> I have set up a syntax checking file on
> https://github.com/novoid/github-orgmode-tests/blob/master/orgmode_support.org
> which also contains my current compatibility table for the most
> basic set that makes sense as a Markdown-pendant outside of Emacs
> according to my subjective judgement on Org mode at the bottom.
>
> My focus is on tools that - at least - offer text formatting syntax
> highlighting for *bold* /italic/ and so forth. The rest could be
> "works as text but has no special support for outlining and more".
>
> The goals is to emphasize that there are much more tools that allow
> for viewing and/or editing data in Org mode syntax.
>
> Since I don't have an iPhone, iOS-based tools supporting Org mode
> syntax is very much appreciated.
>
> Please do hand in more lines for the table either here, via email or
> as a GitHub pull request.
>
> Thank you!
>


-- 
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Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

Hi Robert,

* Robert Horn  wrote:
>
> Karl Voit writes:
>
>> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
>> are not Emacs.
>>
>
> If email integration is considered support, you can add
>
> mu (searching for mu4e will eliminate most of the false positives for
> "mu" when searching)
> notmuch
>
> They both have org-mode integrations.  E.g., create an org-mode task
> from within the email reader, with link back to the email.

Good to know but my focus are tools outside of Emacs. I just
mentioned Emacs once in the table to make sure it's there. However,
I won't collect all org-related modules within Emacs as it is a
different use-case.

-- 
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Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Karl Voit]

* Kristian Grönberg  wrote:
>
> Beorg for iOS (https://beorgapp.com) , would be one.

I don't have access to iOS devices. Could you hand in a
compatibility row according to my table?

-- 
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Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Timothy]

Hi Karl,

Just to check, have you seen  ?

All the best,
*Timothy*

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[David Masterson]

Karl Voit  writes:

> Hi,
>
> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
> are not Emacs.
>
> I already have: GitHub, GitLab (exactly like GitHub), OrgModeWeb,
> Orgzly, Orgro, Emacs, vim-orgmode.

* BeOrg (http://beorg.app)
* Organice (http://organice.200ok.ch)

-- 
David Masterson

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Tom Gillespie]

Hi Karl,
   Great initiative. For many of the things in the table you will
probably want to link to the underlying library For example for github
and gitlab there is https://github.com/wallyqs/org-ruby (which I have
been trying to find time to submit fixes to). I've linked a couple
relevant threads and repos. Best!
Tom

python https://github.com/novoid/Memacs
python https://github.com/karlicoss/orgparse
python https://github.com/bjonnh/PyOrgMode
racket https://github.com/tgbugs/laundry/tree/next
racket https://github.com/jeapostrophe/org-mode
racket https://github.com/antoineB/org-mode
See https://github.com/tgbugs/laundry/blob/next/laundry/cursed.org for
an org file that github fails to render
clojure https://github.com/200ok-ch/org-parser/blob/master/resources/org.ebnf

https://orgmode.org/list/ca+g3_pobab1qx1zv8q9sjfh4khuhvmanxp3xo7__6eosdxk...@mail.gmail.com/
https://orgmode.org/list/ca+g3_pnj6pekqv+twfkwbd778xhw9wsfx+kjjhjsoreplhu...@mail.gmail.com/

On Tue, Aug 3, 2021 at 11:46 AM Greg Minshall  wrote:
>
> Karl,
>
> orgtbl-query is a script for querying tables in .org files.  it doesn't
> do any special text formatting.
>
> https://gitlab.com/minshall/orqtbl-query
>
> cheers, Greg
>

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Greg Minshall]

Karl,

orgtbl-query is a script for querying tables in .org files.  it doesn't
do any special text formatting.

https://gitlab.com/minshall/orqtbl-query

cheers, Greg

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Jens Neuhalfen]

Hi

on iOS the (really amazing) git client „working copy“ has support for org 
rendering 

Jens

> On 3. Aug 2021, at 11:32, Karl Voit  wrote:
> 
> Hi,
> 
> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
> are not Emacs.
> 
> I already have: GitHub, GitLab (exactly like GitHub), OrgModeWeb,
> Orgzly, Orgro, Emacs, vim-orgmode.
> 
> What I need is information on much more tools.
> 
> I have set up a syntax checking file on
> https://github.com/novoid/github-orgmode-tests/blob/master/orgmode_support.org
> which also contains my current compatibility table for the most
> basic set that makes sense as a Markdown-pendant outside of Emacs
> according to my subjective judgement on Org mode at the bottom.
> 
> My focus is on tools that - at least - offer text formatting syntax
> highlighting for *bold* /italic/ and so forth. The rest could be
> "works as text but has no special support for outlining and more".
> 
> The goals is to emphasize that there are much more tools that allow
> for viewing and/or editing data in Org mode syntax.
> 
> Since I don't have an iPhone, iOS-based tools supporting Org mode
> syntax is very much appreciated.
> 
> Please do hand in more lines for the table either here, via email or
> as a GitHub pull request.
> 
> Thank you!
> 
> -- 
> get mail|git|SVN|photos|postings|SMS|phonecalls|RSS|CSV|XML into Org-mode:
>> get Memacs from https://github.com/novoid/Memacs <
> Personal Information Management > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/pim/
> Emacs-related > http://Karl-Voit.at/tags/emacs/
> 
> 

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Robert Horn]

Karl Voit writes:

> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that
> are not Emacs.
>

If email integration is considered support, you can add

mu (searching for mu4e will eliminate most of the false positives for
"mu" when searching)
notmuch

They both have org-mode integrations.  E.g., create an org-mode task
from within the email reader, with link back to the email.

-- 
Robert Horn
rjh...@alum.mit.edu

Re: Help requested: Support for basic Org mode support in tools outside of Emacs

[Kristian Grönberg]

Hi Karl,

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On Tuesday, August 3rd, 2021 at 12:14, Karl Voit  wrote:

> Hi,
> 

> I'm collecting information on basic Org mode support in tools that are not 
> Emacs.
> 

> I already have: GitHub, GitLab (exactly like GitHub), OrgModeWeb,
> 

> Orgzly, Orgro, Emacs, vim-orgmode.

Beorg for iOS (https://beorgapp.com) , would be one.


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