Hi all,
I've just caught up with this conversation after feeling similar
friction to others since the 'electric-indent' change.
When it happened, I spent time trying to figure out how to revert the
change (thinking I had introduced the bug myself in my configuration
somehow) and ended up setting
"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" writes:
> I have seen no uproar here. Discussions here were friendly and
> constructive. The discusssions are long, because there aren’t easy
> solutions to managing changes in UX in central places.
>
> And a significant share of the discussion was about the question
2020-11-16 Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide wrote:
I would like to agree, because I wish people would also read NEWS for my
projects, but since I use at least 10-20 programs daily which depend on
hundreds of libraries that might change their behavior, that’s
unrealistic.
I cannot read NEWS entries
Stefan Nobis writes:
> "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" writes:
>
>> Sad story short:...
>
> I'm with you - last weekend I upgrade my OS and had quite some trouble
> to get everything working again and still have some nasty hoops to
> jump through.
>
> But on the other side: …
…
> I'm really
Tim,
thanks.
my tests were in a src block inside the main buffer. like you, i
normally edit in an Org Src... buffer. but, it's nice when it basically
"works" even in the main buffer (for minor edits, etc.).
and, yes, setting org-adapt-indentation to either 'headline-data or nil
seems likely
* Detlef Steuer [2020-11-17 11:47]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2020-11-17 Tue 12:41]
:ID: 2bc18302-d009-4751-b062-b3cf2aa44d18
:END:
> It is *impossible* to force users to be informed. Think about us: We
> all hang around on this list and missed the information. What would
> reasonably be
On Tue, Nov 17, 2020 at 10:06 AM Stefan Nobis wrote:
> But on the other side: What are we talking about?
> ...
> But ranting so loudly and insistent and continuously over such a minor
> details is really beyond me.
> ...
> So, everyone, please calm down and try not to overreact over really
>
Stefan Nobis writes:
> "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" writes:
>
>> Sad story short:...
>
> I'm with you - last weekend I upgrade my OS and had quite some trouble
> to get everything working again and still have some nasty hoops to
> jump through.
>
> But on the other side: What are we talking
"Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" writes:
> Sad story short:...
I'm with you - last weekend I upgrade my OS and had quite some trouble
to get everything working again and still have some nasty hoops to
jump through.
But on the other side: What are we talking about?
Org had a given default
Am Tue, 17 Nov 2020 01:11:38 +0100
schrieb "Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide" :
> The only way that works is to avoid breakage on update — except for
> the few cases where it is truly unavoidable.
Well, and as long as the change can be reverted when the community
has a thoughtful discussion with those
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 16:24:45 -0700, T.F. Torrey wrote:
[...]
> The proper fix for this is one of two choices:
>
> 1. If keeping electric-indent-mode on is really important, the easiest
>way to restore intuitive behavior is to change the default of
>org-adapt-indentation to nil. Yes, this
Tom Gillespie writes:
> with upstream, but it is clear that upstream has done zero testing on
> the impact of that change on org-mode (or any other mode for that matter).
I think this statement is too hard. If you use org purely for the
example usecase (headings with a single content-line) and
Good work Greg.
My only comment is about the tests in src blocks. I'm not sure about these
as I always use the special editing mode for source blocks and I would
expect that when you do this, the editing buffer would adopt the semantics
of the native mode for the source language being edited. (I
hi, Tim, et al.
i started feeling guilty yesterday, partly for being party to prolonging
this discussion (though i do think it may be important?). but also for
realizing i had *not* explored the alternatives Tim, Gustavo, and others
have suggested.
the following is *clearly* the department of
Terry,
Thank you very much for the clear articulation of the problem,
it enable me to see what the issue is and find more and deeper
issues with the change.
Speaking as someone who was not affected by this change
due to the peculiarities of my config, let me say as a fairly
impartial
Tim Cross writes:
> There are only two mechanisms by which org-mode is upgraded and as far
> as I know, both require that the user either initiates the update or
> turns on automatic updates. Your argument would be more compelling for
> me if we were talking about updates which occur without
Tim Cross writes:
> At the same time, us users also need to take on some of the
> responsibility and recognise that major version upgrades may break or
> change their workflow. If you have a situation where stability of your
> environment is critical to your work and your strapped for time so
Tom Gillespie writes:
> Would it help if major releases maintained a mini-config that if added
> to init.el would allow users to retain old behavior? That way they
> wouldn't have to read the NEWS but could just add the relevant lines,
> or maybe even just call the org-old-default-behavior-9.1
Hello all,
I apologize in advance that this is so long.
I've been following this thread closely, because I've been using Org
mode daily for well over a decade, and this behavior affects me in
several important ways. I think this summary might be helpful.
Forever, it has been possible to start
> > Ugh, I update my emacs package pretty infrequently and I usually have 30 or
> > more packages updating at a time -- I can't see wading through 30 NEWS
> > files searching for landmines...
> >
>
> Yes, this I think is a problem. Most of those packages probably only
> have minor changes and bug
> If people don't have time to read the NEWS file, I also doubt they would
> be aware of the mini config file or have the time to add it to their
> setup. There would be an additional burden on developers to maintain the
> mini-config which might not actually result in any real benefit. I would
>
Bill Burdick writes:
> Ugh, I update my emacs package pretty infrequently and I usually have 30 or
> more packages updating at a time -- I can't see wading through 30 NEWS
> files searching for landmines...
>
Yes, this I think is a problem. Most of those packages probably only
have minor
Tom Gillespie writes:
> Semver is unlikely to help because the question is what is "broken" by
> a change in version. Semver would likely be about breaking changes to
> internal org apis, not changes to default behavior that affect users,
> so you have two different "semantics" which put us
Heh, I had time to read EMACS NEWS when I used it in 1985 (and still do for
new EMACS versions). Now there are s many packages, each with their own
news...
-- Bill
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 10:59 PM Tim Cross wrote:
>
> Tom Gillespie writes:
>
> > Would it help if major releases
Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide writes:
> Tim Cross writes:
>> I can completely understand your position. However, I wanted to point
>> out that this change was documented in the org NEWS file, where all
>> version changes are documented. When upgrading to a new version of org,
>> everyone should
Tom Gillespie writes:
> Would it help if major releases maintained a mini-config that if added
> to init.el would allow users to retain old behavior? That way they
> wouldn't have to read the NEWS but could just add the relevant lines,
> or maybe even just call the org-old-default-behavior-9.1
Right there with you. My primary org file has a section filled with
rage when some default gets changed in org or some other part of
Emacs. The vast majority of the time the underlying change was in the
NEWS. Since there is already a habit of updating the NEWS it doesn't
seem unreasonable to put
Ugh, I update my emacs package pretty infrequently and I usually have 30 or
more packages updating at a time -- I can't see wading through 30 NEWS
files searching for landmines...
-- Bill
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 9:10 PM Tom Gillespie wrote:
> Semver is unlikely to help because the question
Semver is unlikely to help because the question is what is "broken" by
a change in version. Semver would likely be about breaking changes to
internal org apis, not changes to default behavior that affect users,
so you have two different "semantics" which put us right back where we
are now -- to
On 11/16/2020 9:26 AM, Tom Gillespie wrote:
> Would it help if major releases maintained a mini-config that if added
> to init.el would allow users to retain old behavior? That way they
> wouldn't have to read the NEWS but could just add the relevant lines,
> or maybe even just call the
On 11/16/2020 9:26 AM, Tom Gillespie wrote:
> Would it help if major releases maintained a mini-config that if added
> to init.el would allow users to retain old behavior? That way they
> wouldn't have to read the NEWS but could just add the relevant lines,
> or maybe even just call the
Would it help if major releases maintained a mini-config that if added
to init.el would allow users to retain old behavior? That way they
wouldn't have to read the NEWS but could just add the relevant lines,
or maybe even just call the org-old-default-behavior-9.1 or
org-old-default-behavior-9.4.
Uwe Brauer writes:
>> PS: I started to donate to org-mode a few weeks ago when I realized just
>> how central it is to my workflows. If it’s the same for you, please
>> join up: https://liberapay.com/bzg
>> Creating reliable funding for development of essential Free Software
>>
Tim Cross writes:
> I can completely understand your position. However, I wanted to point
> out that this change was documented in the org NEWS file, where all
> version changes are documented. When upgrading to a new version of org,
> everyone should look there, ideally before the upgrade or
> PS: I started to donate to org-mode a few weeks ago when I realized just
> how central it is to my workflows. If it’s the same for you, please
> join up: https://liberapay.com/bzg
> Creating reliable funding for development of essential Free Software
> tools is one of the
On Mon, Nov 16, 2020 at 8:43 AM Tim Cross wrote:
> So essentially, this change has been made to make org-mode consistent
> with the rest of emacs which enabled electric-indent by default in Emacs
> 24. this is a good thing. Org should be consistent with other modes. Any
> differences are likely
Hi Tim,
Hi All,
On Mon, 16 Nov 2020 at 18:15, Tim Cross wrote:
> Tim Cross writes:
>
>>
>> Thanks for clarifying this Kyle.
>>
>> So essentially, this change has been made to make org-mode consistent
>> with the rest of emacs which enabled electric-indent by default in Emacs
>> 24. this is a
Tim Cross writes:
> I am a little confused about the purpose of org-adapt-indentation
> though. According to the org news file, to get back the old behaviour,
> it says to explicity disable electric-indent mode using org-mode-hook.
> There is no mention of org-adapt-indentation.
Yep; as I
Dr. Arne Babenhauserheide writes:
> Kyle Meyer writes:
>> So, it seems that changing Org to honor electric-indent-mode is now
>> making some users aware of org-adapt-indentation and that its default
>> value is not what they want.
>
> I’ve seen before that increasing the depth of a headline
Tim Cross writes:
> Kyle Meyer writes:
>
>> Kévin Le Gouguec writes:
>>
>>> Detlef Steuer writes:
>>> Note that indenting section bodies by default predates Org 9.4: in Org
>>> 9.3, hitting TAB on the first line of text after a heading indents it to
>>> column LEVEL+1.
>>
>> Yes,
Kévin Le Gouguec writes:
> Before being applied, this change has been discussed on emacs-devel and
> emacs-orgmode; it has then been documented in ORG-NEWS. Which other
> places do you think we should have reached out to?
I don’t think you really had a chance to reach enough people. I’m here
Greg Minshall writes:
> i wonder if a grid might help? i.e., contexts in which we are all
> happy, others where we might disagree? below, i try; i'm sure i've
> missed cases.
>
> question: what does do/would we like it to do when we are in?
>
> =
>
Kyle Meyer writes:
> So, it seems that changing Org to honor electric-indent-mode is now
> making some users aware of org-adapt-indentation and that its default
> value is not what they want.
I’ve seen before that increasing the depth of a headline with M-→
indents all its content. That was
i wonder if a grid might help? i.e., contexts in which we are all
happy, others where we might disagree? below, i try; i'm sure i've
missed cases.
question: what does do/would we like it to do when we are in?
=
tables: next row, current column
Org Src
Kyle Meyer writes:
> Kévin Le Gouguec writes:
>
>> Detlef Steuer writes:
>> Note that indenting section bodies by default predates Org 9.4: in Org
>> 9.3, hitting TAB on the first line of text after a heading indents it to
>> column LEVEL+1.
>
> Yes, org-adapt-indentation has been around
i wanted first to thank everyone for their participation in this
discussion. i want to not be annoying. and, yes, this is a long
thread, and for me, at least, it's hard to keep track of what was said.
(like many, i assumed this was some bug, triggered by my configuration
TIMES emacs release
Kévin Le Gouguec writes:
> Detlef Steuer writes:
> Note that indenting section bodies by default predates Org 9.4: in Org
> 9.3, hitting TAB on the first line of text after a heading indents it to
> column LEVEL+1.
Yes, org-adapt-indentation has been around (with a default of t) since
4be4c5623
* Kévin Le Gouguec [2020-11-16 01:00]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2020-11-16 Mon 01:15]
:ID: bd11f325-c034-4f9b-baa6-b7d606af3cbb
:END:
> - Plenty of Org users do not expect it to behave like programming modes
> wrt indentation (they might not even use programming modes).
>
> - These
Jean Louis writes:
> There is just slight difference, and that is what I learned from
> introduction to Org mode that it is "plain text" kind of mode. I can
> do and write how I wish. My habit comes from being used to indent when
> I want and then to follow indentation in that specific
* Gustavo Barros [2020-11-15 17:51]:
> > I do, thank you for reminder. Us in plural are sometimes teachers or
> > mentors who educate other people who are supposed to edit Org files in
> > most simple manner, and those people will never be able to write to
> > this list to find out which option
* Kévin Le Gouguec [2020-11-15 15:45]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2020-11-15 Sun 16:26]
:ID: e454756a-3123-42dc-8c44-8682f12927ad
:END:
> Jean Louis writes:
>
> > Indentation in fundamental mode:
> >
> > ** HereRET
> > I come here.
> > But only if I start indenting
> >Like hereRET
> >
Hi Jean,
On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 09:09, Jean Louis wrote:
That is useful.
I'm glad to hear that.
You (plural) could probably also get some juice from looking into,
and
incorporating to muscle memory, `M-RET', `C-RET' and `C-j'.
I do, thank you for reminder. Us in plural are
Detlef Steuer writes:
> I'm constantly bitten by that change, but was too lazy to dig for the
> cause. But now that I know, I want to add 2c.
>
> If one writes prose it looks much more natural to have
>
> * Healine
>
> start editing in column 1 of next row.
> (Personally I would prefer to start
* Gustavo Barros [2020-11-15 14:49]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2020-11-15 Sun 15:09]
:ID: fef3cdfd-8870-4471-bcc7-4d690bfaceb2
:END:
> I'm quite surprised by the reaction to this issue, because
> `electric-indent-mode' *does not change Org's indentation settings*, it
> just applies them
Jean Louis writes:
> Indentation in fundamental mode:
>
> ** HereRET
> I come here.
> But only if I start indenting
>Like hereRET
>Then I continue here
Hi Jean,
My understanding of electric-indent-mode is that it tries to make "RET"
equivalent to "insert newline; indent according to
Am Sun, 15 Nov 2020 08:48:56 -0300
schrieb Gustavo Barros :
> Hi All,
>
> On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 13:37, Greg Minshall
> wrote:
>
> > hi, all.
> >
> > David Rogers wrote:
> >
> >> Am I crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is
> >> easier for me to read and understand? (and
Hi All,
On Sun, 15 Nov 2020 at 13:37, Greg Minshall wrote:
> hi, all.
>
> David Rogers wrote:
>
>> Am I crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is
>> easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common
>> indenting is a hopeless mess?)
>
> yes, in fact, the "new" way
Greg Minshall writes:
> hi, all.
>
> David Rogers wrote:
>
>> Am I crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is
>> easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common
>> indenting is a hopeless mess?)
>
> yes, in fact, the "new" way sort of has the buffer indentation
>
> > Am I crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is
> > easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common
> > indenting is a hopeless mess?)
>
> I think the second becomes horribly hard to read if you have more than
> one line in the body. I use org-mode for
David Rogers writes:
>> Common indenting in Org mode is:
>>
>> * Heading
>> Text
>> ** Heading
>> Text
>> *** Heading text
>> Text
>> Heading
>> Text here
>> * Heading
>> Text
>> ** Heading
>> Text
>>
>> AND if somebody likes to indent differently electric indent mode
>> would
hi, all.
David Rogers wrote:
> Am I crazy to say that your last example of unwanted behavior is
> easier for me to read and understand? (and to me the common
> indenting is a hopeless mess?)
yes, in fact, the "new" way sort of has the buffer indentation match
that of the outline structure of
* David Rogers [2020-11-15 10:48]:
:PROPERTIES:
:CREATED: [2020-11-15 Sun 11:53]
:ID: e9973880-3447-42c6-99e4-2a0b430d136b
:END:
> Jean Louis writes:
>
> > * David Rogers [2020-11-15 01:44]:
> > > Hello
> > >
> > > After reading several of the responses to this, I’ve started to
Jean Louis writes:
* David Rogers [2020-11-15 01:44]:
Hello
After reading several of the responses to this, I’ve started to
wonder: Is
electric-indent-mode broken for everybody because it contains a
bug or
design flaw, or is electric-indent-mode working fine but simply
not suitable
for
* David Rogers [2020-11-15 01:44]:
> Hello
>
> After reading several of the responses to this, I’ve started to wonder: Is
> electric-indent-mode broken for everybody because it contains a bug or
> design flaw, or is electric-indent-mode working fine but simply not suitable
> for every situation?
Hello
After reading several of the responses to this, I’ve started to
wonder: Is electric-indent-mode broken for everybody because it
contains a bug or design flaw, or is electric-indent-mode working
fine but simply not suitable for every situation?
In other words, where is the “right”
* Diego Zamboni [2020-11-14 20:29]:
> Jean,
>
> On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 8:53 AM Jean Louis wrote:
>
> > As that is how ugly and less visible it should look like if the same
> > principle should be followed. As if somebody forces me to indent list
> > items like that, then they shall also force
Jean,
On Sat, Nov 14, 2020 at 8:53 AM Jean Louis wrote:
> As that is how ugly and less visible it should look like if the same
> principle should be followed. As if somebody forces me to indent list
> items like that, then they shall also force headings. So consistency
> is lacking. /s
>
No
Hi Gustavo,
Thanks for the pointer! I noticed this change some time ago, but it hadn't
bothered me so much as to go look how to fix it - now you gave me the
solution :)
Cheers,
--Diego
On Fri, Nov 13, 2020 at 10:11 PM Gustavo Barros
wrote:
> Hi Karl,
>
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 18:30, Karl
* Gustavo Barros [2020-11-14 01:14]:
>
> On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 18:47, Jean Louis wrote:
>
> > * Gustavo Barros [2020-11-14 00:12]:
> >
> > I have seen discussion with very little reasoning. You are changing
> > default for many users and large subset of those users will not read
> > the
so, i also agree that the new('ish) behavior is somewhat surprising.
[i once changed the behavior of the "Enter" key in Berkeley Unix, and
suffered the (well-deserved, in that case) arrows that soon entered my
back.]
from that perspective, i wonder if maybe there's an interpretation of
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 18:47, Jean Louis wrote:
* Gustavo Barros [2020-11-14 00:12]:
I have seen discussion with very little reasoning. You are changing
default for many users and large subset of those users will not read
the NEWS. And now you are discovering that there are people who get
* Gustavo Barros [2020-11-14 00:12]:
> I'll answer, because I feel somewhat responsible for your upgrade. ;-)
>
> Since recently Org is set to respect Emacs' `eletric-indent-mode'. If
> I'm not mistaken, it made to the 9.4 release, I presume that's what you
> are getting.
>
> You can find the
* Gustavo Barros [2020-11-14 00:12]:
> I'll answer, because I feel somewhat responsible for your upgrade. ;-)
>
> Since recently Org is set to respect Emacs' `eletric-indent-mode'. If
> I'm not mistaken, it made to the 9.4 release, I presume that's what you
> are getting.
>
> You can find the
* Karl Voit [2020-11-13 20:40]:
> If somebody is interested why I do find the old one much better:
> When I need one multi-line list item, I just keep on typing while
> auto-wrap is active or I press M-q to re-format the item
> accordingly. For a new list item, I'm using M-RET which solves the
>
Hi Karl,
On Fri, 13 Nov 2020 at 18:30, Karl Voit wrote:
> Hi!
>
> I'm on Org mode maint git repo, currently v9.3.6.
>
> I recently upgraded from an older git commit version.
>
> Since the upgrade I do have a different behavior:
>
> - Consider this list itemX
> A 1
> 2
>
> When I press RET at
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