RE: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions
Richard, Regarding your last statement I don't believe that they [CSA UL] will accept each others marks. Certain UL and CSA component standards have been harmonized and, I believe, this effort is continuing. If you look at Appendix P.2 [be sure it is P.2 and not P.1] of UL 1950, 3rd edition, you will find a matrix of UL and CSA component standards where meeting one or the other is considered acceptable for meeting the requirements of UL1950, 3rd edition. Additionally, if you are working with an astute UL engineer, very often they will inform you of additional components that fall under that category but have not yet been published in this Appendix. Tania Grant, Lucent Technologies, Octel Messaging Division tgr...@lucent.com -- From: WOODS, RICHARD[SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:00 AM To: 'EMC-PSTC - forum' Subject: RE: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions As I think about this situation, there is a way of obtaining UL Listing on the rack and have other certification marks on the internal equipment. Have UL List just the rack without the equipment. Now you can mix and match the internal certified equipment as you see fit keeping in mind not to exceed the cooling and electrical capacity of the rack. This is what we use to do a decade ago at a mini-computer company. We would configure systems from Listed racks, cpus, disks, tapes, etc. Now to Jim's point. There is no law that requires one agency to accept the certification marks of another agency. For example, UL will not accept ETL marks on components and both are NRTLS. The only way one agency will accept the marks of another is if there is an agreement between them. The CB scheme is one good example. CSA and UL have an agreement to accept each others test data I believe, but I don't believe that they will accept each others marks. -- From: Jim Eichner [SMTP:jeich...@statpower.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:23 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC - forum' Subject: RE: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions Re Richard's item 5)... 5.UL requires that all internal equipment be UL Listed or Recognized. If that is true, then the value of the CSA/NRTL mark, and conversely the cUL mark if CSA plays this way too, is highly questionable. Do you have a direct-from-UL interpretation saying that they are not accepting the CSA/NRTL mark? If so, I would expect CSA to take action to defend its mark, and UL to have no firm ground to stand on! Comments? Jim Eichner Statpower Technologies Corporation jeich...@statpower.com http://www.statpower.com Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really exists. Honest. -Original Message- From: WOODS, RICHARD [SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 11:15 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; t...@world.std.com Subject: RE: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions 1.Peter, equipment with the standard NEMA plug is considered to be Class A.. 2.Equipment using the heavy duty Industrial plugs complying with IEC are considered to be Class B. I have never seen those used inside rack mounted equipment. 3.If the power supply is UL Listed, then temperature measurements are not required. However, most power supplies are categorized as Recognized and are therefore incomplete in construction - that is, they cannot pass the safety requirements for a stand alone power supply. Temperature measurements will be required. 4.Stability is performed in a worst case situation, but reason is also taken into account. Most likely, you will determine that it is possible and reasonable to assume that more than one assembly can be extending at the same time. 5.UL requires that all internal equipment be UL Listed or Recognized. --- From: pe...@itl.co.il [SMTP:pe...@itl.co.il] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 11:26 AM To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; t...@world.std.com Subject: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions Dear All, I would like to know some of your professional advice on some issues reagrding rack systems to be evaluated to UL1950/EN 60 950. 1. For the North America, does a NEMA 125 V, 20 A plug meet the pluggable B definition? 2. What are some plug configurations which will meet the pluggable B
TEST MESSAGE
Listmembers: Sorry to have to post a test message, but your list administrators are testing the listserver's distribution of posts. Please ignore this test message. Ed -- Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Systems San Diego, CA. USA 619-505-2780 List-Post: emc-pstc@listserv.ieee.org Date: 03/10/1999 Time: 11:42:34 -- - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
RE: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions
On Wednesday, March 10, 1999 5:00 AM, WOODS, RICHARD [SMTP:wo...@sensormatic.com] wrote: As I think about this situation, there is a way of obtaining UL Listing on the rack and have other certification marks on the internal equipment. Have UL List just the rack without the equipment. Now you can mix and match the internal certified equipment as you see fit keeping in mind not to exceed the cooling and electrical capacity of the rack. This is what we use to do a decade ago at a mini-computer company. We would configure systems from Listed racks, cpus, disks, tapes, etc. RRR. So after we obtained the UL listed for rack (model ABC-001), then we configure, add recognized disks, recognized tapes ...etc. etc.. now it become new model (DEF-001). Do we have to submit this new model for certification again ???. Now to Jim's point. There is no law that requires one agency to accept the certification marks of another agency. For example, UL will not accept ETL marks on components and both are NRTLS. The only way one agency will accept the marks of another is if there is an agreement between them. The CB scheme is one good example. CSA and UL have an agreement to accept each others test data I believe, but I don't believe that they will accept each others marks. RRR. They don't accept each others mark, but would they review and accept test data??? Tac Pham HC Power -- From: Jim Eichner [SMTP:jeich...@statpower.com] Sent: Tuesday, March 09, 1999 3:23 PM To: 'EMC-PSTC - forum' Subject: RE: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions Re Richard's item 5)... 5.UL requires that all internal equipment be UL Listed or Recognized. If that is true, then the value of the CSA/NRTL mark, and conversely the cUL mark if CSA plays this way too, is highly questionable. Do you have a direct-from-UL interpretation saying that they are not accepting the CSA/NRTL mark? If so, I would expect CSA to take action to defend its mark, and UL to have no firm ground to stand on! Comments? Jim Eichner Statpower Technologies Corporation jeich...@statpower.com http://www.statpower.com Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really exists. Honest. - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Wireless PBX System
Dear All, I have a wireless PBX system which is Approved. The manufacturer has added an a card module which interfaces with an outdoor base station. The outdoor base station is within a polymeric box and receives /transmits E1 and 48 Vdc 0.6 A from/to the card module of the PBX. Speaking of UL1950 Third Edition: 1. Does the outdoor box have to meet UL 50 or is it enough to meet the UL1950 Third Edition requirements (which are flammability tests and an IP rating). I assume that in the case of UL1950, it is not necessary to have the plastic rated for Ultravilolet Resistance and suitability for water exposure/immersion (other the IP watertightness tests). Note: An outdoor box evaluated under UL1459 would have to meet UL50 (Standard for Enclosures for Use in Electrical Equipment). 2. Is an IPX4 rating good enough for the box which is mounted to an outdoor pole (subjected to rain, snow, and occasional exposure to ice)? 3. What is the designation of the E1/48 Vdc interface to the base station? It should be noted that the E1 is not connected to the PSTN. Can this interface be considered as SELV even though it is connected outside the building similar to a 100 BaseT Fast Ethernet connection? 4. The means of connection to the 48Vdc/E1 at the base station is a muti-pin UL Recognized connector. Assuming that the manufacturer limits the power in the PBX card module to Class 2 levels, I am correct to state that there is no risk of fire or electrical shock and/or energy within the base station, and A. The box may therefore be rated minimum 94HB (in lieu of 94-5V for fire enclosures - fixed equipment)? AND B. The multi-pin connector is acceptable (ie no need for permanent connection to supply for fixed equipment). The only requirement would therefore be for the installer to use Class 2 wiring/cable between the PBX and the outdoor base stations? AND C. An IP rating for the box is irrelevant for safety but may be relevant to the functioning of the equipment? Thank you all who have responded to my UL1950 Rack Questions and hope that many more can take a shot at the above questions. Regards, PETER S. MERGUERIAN MANAGING DIRECTOR PRODUCT TESTING DIVISION I.T.L. (PRODUCT TESTING) LTD. HACHAROSHET 26, P.O.B. 211 OR YEHUDA 60251, ISRAEL TEL: 972-3-5339022 FAX: 972-3-5339019 E-MAIL: pe...@itl.co.il Visit our Website: http://www.itl.co.il - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Awards for Worst EMC/PS qualities
A certain German sports car using a certain German fuel injection system could be made to malfunction in an amuzing way (not to the sports car operator though!) such as backfire, sputter, smoke, flames from exhaust pipe, etc., by tractor-trailer operators with their CB lin-amps when keying on and off. This was a popular thing to do by truckers in the late 70's. This susceptibility problem was addressed and corrected by the sports car manufacturer. Other manufacturers may have had similar problems. At 08:03 AM 3/8/99 PST, bma (Bailin Ma) wrote: Hi Group, We have already seen awards for the most misleading ads, worst attire, worst films, . Why not awards for worst EMC and PS qualities? Barry Ma Morgan Hill, CA 95037 - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). _ DO YOU YAHOO!? Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Awards for Worst EMC/PS qualities
At 08:03 AM 3/8/99 PST, Bailin Ma wrote: Hi Group, We have already seen awards for the most misleading ads, worst attire, worst films, . Why not awards for worst EMC and PS qualities? Barry Ma Morgan Hill, CA 95037 Long ago in another company, I was completing the testing for a large rack mounted device, i.e. emissions, immunity, safety, some parts of Bellcore. We got a call from one of our customers complaining about how sensitive our equipment was and how susceptible it was to ESD events during their own testing of our equipment. This was deemed unacceptable by them. This decision of theirs jeopardized a sale of several million dollars. The finger was duly pointed by everyone right to yours truly. My head was literally in no uncertain terms put on the block. I contested producing repeatable and acceptable ESD test results that were BELOW the BER levels specified by Bellcore with ESD test levels ABOVE that specified by the test standard. I wanted as much margin as possible for our product. Well, it ended up that if you stood three to four feet in front of the rack and jingled change in your pocket or jangled a set of keys in front of it, the product would RESET. Jingling change in a ziplock bag produces very high levels of super fast transients up into the GHz range. Worse, slamming the metal door to the lab in which the equipment was setup would also reset the product. The lab door was say 20 or so feet from our equipment under test. It took six months of a redesign cycle to straighten out that one, but it was finally done. I always wanted to find out who in God's name could have come up with such an insidious ESD test by simply putting some change in a zip lock bag and jingling it in front of equipment. But, I figured he, whoever he was, was lost in time. And wouldn't you know it? ... I now work for that man. - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Russian GOST Approval
To all Product Safety Engineers: I know many of you are looking for information regarding Russian GOST Approval . This is your golden opportunity for you to come to the meeting and find out all the information you need. Mr. Grant Schmidbauer will be the speaker on April 6, 1999, 6:00PM to 7:00PM, at Newport Corporation, 1791 Deere Avenue, Irvine, Ca. Mr. Grant Schmidbauer has been in the product safety industry for 15 years. He worked with CSA, Vancouver and TUV Product Service as a Product Safety Engineer in ITE, Telecom, Power Supply, Medical, Test Measurement, House Appliance, and Audio Video Equipment. In 1996 he jointed NEMKO, USA, San Diego ( NEMKO Compliance West ) as a General Manager over seeing both Product Safety and EMC Compliance. The topic he will speak on is Russian GOST Approval on IEC950/1010.1 Standard Equipment, including the process of getting the GOST Approval. Gosstandart of Russia accredits NEMKO, USA to perform Product Safety Approval and EMC compliance testing. For more information or direction to the meeting, please contact Philip Ling, Newport Corporation at 949-253-1762 or email pl...@newport.com. Please mark your calendar and see you in the April 6, Orange County Chapter Product Safety Meeting. Philip Ling - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: info Israel
Hello Hans, Just go to the Safety Link at: www.safetylink.com where you will find SII (the Standards Institute of Israel) and most of the rest of the regulatory bodies and test agencies of the World. Regards, Art Michael, Editor, Int'l Product Safety News * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * International Product Safety Bookshop * * Check out our current offerings! * * http://www.safetylink.com/bookshop.html * * A new service of the Safety Link * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * On Wed, 10 Mar 1999, Hans Vigne wrote: Does anyone on this board knows the web address of the regulatory approval body of Israel. I'm interested in finding out what kind of emc-safety regulations they have and if MRA's with this country are already in place ? Thanks You, Hans Vigne Option International - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators). - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
info Israel
Does anyone on this board knows the web address of the regulatory approval body of Israel. I'm interested in finding out what kind of emc-safety regulations they have and if MRA's with this country are already in place ? Thanks You, Hans Vigne Option International - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Rack System Safety (UL1950/EN 60950) Questions
Hello from San Diego: I said: 1. For the North America, does a NEMA 125 V, 20 A plug meet the pluggable B definition? No. The objective of the Pluggable Type B connection is that of a reliable, non-defeatable earth connection. The NEMA 20 A plug uses the same earthing connection as the NEMA 15 A plug. The 15 A plug is notorious for having the earthing connection destroyed or removed in use. A colleague has pointed out that the NEMA 20 A plug is indeed accepted by some North American certification houses as meeting the Pluggable Type B definition. The thinking is twofold: 1) the 20 A receptacle is ALWAYS a grounding type, and 2) the 20 A plug is not subject to the same abuse as the 15 A plug. Best regards, Rich - Richard Nute Product Safety Engineer Hewlett-Packard Company Product Regulations Group AiO Division Tel : +1 619 655 3329 16399 West Bernardo Drive FAX : +1 619 655 4979 San Diego, California 92127 e-mail: ri...@sdd.hp.com - - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
Re: Awards for Worst EMC/PS qualities
Some time ago, in a far-away land, I saw a product that was on the lab bench for some initial functionality testing (1-st rev. of the device). A radio was close by, plugged to the same power circuit. The test engineer could not listen to the radio due to the interference with the noise coming from the device. He switched the radio off and, in that moment - the device reset. Neven Disclaimer: I was not involved (of course) in that design :) At 08:03 AM 3/8/99 PST, bma (Bailin Ma) wrote: Hi Group, We have already seen awards for the most misleading ads, worst attire, worst films, . Why not awards for worst EMC and PS qualities? Barry Ma Morgan Hill, CA 95037 - This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list. To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the quotes). For help, send mail to ed.pr...@cubic.com, j...@gwmail.monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
