Re: [PSES] -60Vdc Telecom supply voltage

[Boštjan Glavič]

Hello Kannan,

As far as I know it was used in Russia, however they switch now to 48VDC. In 
deed there are many different systems and somewhere they might still use 60VDC. 
Maybe also in some other ex-Soviet Union countries.


Best regards,
Bostjan

From: Kannan Dhamodaran [mailto:kan...@india.tejasnetworks.com]
Sent: Friday, August 11, 2017 5:10 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] -60Vdc Telecom supply voltage

Dear valued members,

can you guide me on nations that uses -60Vdc supply for telecom installations?

Appreciate your valued inputs in advance.

Best regards,
Kannan
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[PSES] -60Vdc Telecom supply voltage

[Kannan Dhamodaran]

Dear valued members,

can you guide me on nations that uses -60Vdc supply for telecom installations?

Appreciate your valued inputs in advance.

Best regards,
Kannan

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Re: [PSES] Flame retardancy GB/T 8624-2012

[Chuck August-McDowell]

Hi Doug,

GB/T 8624-2012
Equals to;
Classification for burning behavior of building materials and products
Adopted International Standard No. EN 13501-1:2007

Hope that helps…


Chuck McDowell
Compliance Specialist
Meyer Sound Laboratories Inc.
Direct: 510-540-4670

From: Doug Powell [mailto:doug...@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 4:08 PM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Flame retardancy GB/T 8624-2012

Greetings all,

I am attempting to determine equivalency of a flame retardancy rating of B3 in 
GB/T 8624-2012 to the Flame Spread Indices of ASTM E84.  In particular, I 
really don't know if "B3" is good bad or otherwise.  Interestingly, the old 
idea of flammable vs inflammable has come up and is used in contrast to the 
terms combustible vs incombustible. And now my head is beginning to ache.

I really don't have a desire to purchase a chinese standard and read it 
completely through just to answer this question. Does anyone know of a resource 
that can help me cross reference flammability classifications of these two 
standards?



Thanks, Doug



Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01


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[PSES] Flame retardancy GB/T 8624-2012

[Doug Powell]

Greetings all,

I am attempting to determine equivalency of a flame retardancy rating of B3
in GB/T 8624-2012 to the Flame Spread Indices of ASTM E84.  In particular,
I really don't know if "B3" is good bad or otherwise.  Interestingly, the
old idea of flammable vs inflammable has come up and is used in contrast to
the terms combustible vs incombustible. And now my head is beginning to
ache.

I really don't have a desire to purchase a chinese standard and read it
completely through just to answer this question. Does anyone know of a
resource that can help me cross reference flammability classifications of
these two standards?



Thanks, Doug



Douglas E Powell
doug...@gmail.com
http://www.linkedin.com/in/dougp01

-

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Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

[Peter Tarver]

Customers sometimes want both the highest peak current and an rms over a 
defined number of line cycles. If the request is exclusively standards based, 
John's suggestion works well. You'll need to perform five to ten tests randomly 
closing on the supply cycle and pick the highest values.

If an rms value is also needed, you can capture the inrush on a scope and gate 
the measurement over the relevant number of line cycles.


Regards,

Peter Tarver

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 05:32

Well, no-one has challenged Annex B since it was first included in the 
standard. Note that the standard applies up to 16 A/phase, so no big motors, 
etc.

From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com]
Sent: 10 August 2017 13:15

I think it also depends on what your EUT is.   Machinery will typically be full 
of all sorts of loads, motors, transformers, power supplies, computers, 
inductive, capacitive, etc.   The inrush would still be the peak current when 
the mains is switched on or also when the machine is started as they are 
typically two separate events.  These could last several seconds depending on 
the machinery and the incoming power sine wave would probably have little 
effect on it.

-Dave

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 8:00 AM

Look at Annex B of IEC/EN 61000-3-3. I did a lot of work on this for that Annex 
and you will often get different results each time, because of differences in 
how the current is interrupted at the previous switch-off. You do not select a 
point on the voltage waveform for the switching instant; you can't, anyway, 
because you must use the product's own mains switch (unless it doesn't have 
one). You switch at random points, because that is what happens in practice.

For duration,  you leave the mains voltage applied until the inrush transient 
is over (look at the current waveform); this is usually after three or fewer 
cycles, but for some products it can be rather longer. Normally, the first 
current peak is the highest, but occasionally the second peak is higher.

From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk]
Sent: 10 August 2017 12:30

Hi

We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this function 
on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we get very 
different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.

I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".

I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at 
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?

A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same 
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each other 
such as ringing wave form?

Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen

-

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Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

[John Woodgate]

Because many tests showed that these values are often extreme outliers that
affect the average disproportionately. It happens with toroidal
transformers; if the previous switch-off left the core magnetized and at
switch-on, the current is in the same direction, the core saturates hard and
the current is limited only by the primary winding resistance. This current
is typically 3 or more times the average, but the occurrence of such large
currents is very rare in practice.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO – Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

-Original Message-
From: Ralph McDiarmid [mailto:ralph.mcdiar...@schneider-electric.com] 
Sent: 10 August 2017 17:13
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

Just curious to why delete the highest and lowest values before taking the
average?

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 5:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

Look at Annex B of IEC/EN 61000-3-3. I did a lot of work on this for that
Annex and you will often get different results each time, because of
differences in how the current is interrupted at the previous switch-off.
You do not select a point on the voltage waveform for the switching instant;
you can't, anyway, because you must use the product's own mains switch
(unless it doesn't have one). You switch at random points, because that is
what happens in practice. 

For duration,  you leave the mains voltage applied until the inrush
transient is over (look at the current waveform); this is usually after
three or fewer cycles, but for some products it can be rather longer.
Normally, the first current peak is the highest, but occasionally the second
peak is higher.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk]
Sent: 10 August 2017 12:30
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Inrush Current

Hi

We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this
function on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we
get very different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.

I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".

I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?

A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each
other such as ringing wave form?

Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
 All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
on the web at: http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
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http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
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Scott Douglas  Mike Cantwell
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Jim Bacher 
David Heald  

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 All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety 

Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

[Ralph McDiarmid]

Just curious to why delete the highest and lowest values before taking the 
average?

Ralph McDiarmid
Product Compliance
Engineering
Solar Business
Schneider Electric


From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 5:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

Look at Annex B of IEC/EN 61000-3-3. I did a lot of work on this for that Annex 
and you will often get different results each time, because of differences in 
how the current is interrupted at the previous switch-off. You do not select a 
point on the voltage waveform for the switching instant; you can't, anyway, 
because you must use the product's own mains switch (unless it doesn't have 
one). You switch at random points, because that is what happens in practice. 

For duration,  you leave the mains voltage applied until the inrush transient 
is over (look at the current waveform); this is usually after three or fewer 
cycles, but for some products it can be rather longer. Normally, the first 
current peak is the highest, but occasionally the second peak is higher.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
http://www.jmwa.demon.co.uk/ J M Woodgate and Associates Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk] 
Sent: 10 August 2017 12:30
To: mailto:EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Inrush Current

Hi

We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this function 
on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we get very 
different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.

I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".

I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at 
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?

A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same 
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each other 
such as ringing wave form?

Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc 
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at 
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in well-used 
formats), large files, etc.
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Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
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Mike Cantwell  
For policy questions, send mail to:
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Jim Bacher:  
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Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

[John Woodgate]

Well, no-one has challenged Annex B since it was first included in the
standard. Note that the standard applies up to 16 A/phase, so no big motors,
etc. 
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Nyffenegger, Dave [mailto:dave.nyffeneg...@bhemail.com] 
Sent: 10 August 2017 13:15
To: John Woodgate ; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: RE: [PSES] Inrush Current
 
I think it also depends on what your EUT is.   Machinery will typically be
full of all sorts of loads, motors, transformers, power supplies, computers,
inductive, capacitive, etc.   The inrush would still be the peak current
when the mains is switched on or also when the machine is started as they
are typically two separate events.  These could last several seconds
depending on the machinery and the incoming power sine wave would probably
have little effect on it.
 
-Dave
 
From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com] 
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 8:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: Re: [PSES] Inrush Current
 
Look at Annex B of IEC/EN 61000-3-3. I did a lot of work on this for that
Annex and you will often get different results each time, because of
differences in how the current is interrupted at the previous switch-off.
You do not select a point on the voltage waveform for the switching instant;
you can't, anyway, because you must use the product's own mains switch
(unless it doesn't have one). You switch at random points, because that is
what happens in practice. 
 
For duration,  you leave the mains voltage applied until the inrush
transient is over (look at the current waveform); this is usually after
three or fewer cycles, but for some products it can be rather longer.
Normally, the first current peak is the highest, but occasionally the second
peak is higher.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk] 
Sent: 10 August 2017 12:30
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG  
Subject: [PSES] Inrush Current
 
Hi
 
We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this
function on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we
get very different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.
 
I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".
 
I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?
 
A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each
other such as ringing wave form?
 
Best regards,
 
Kim Boll Jensen
-

This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
 >
All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
http://product-compliance.oc.ieee.org/ can be used for graphics (in
well-used formats), large files, etc.
Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
unsubscribe)  
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 
For policy questions, send mail to:
Jim Bacher  >
David Heald  > 
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This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to
 >
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Attachments are not permitted but the IEEE PSES Online Communities site at
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unsubscribe)  
List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html 
For help, send mail to the list administrators:
Scott Douglas  >
Mike Cantwell  > 

Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

[Nyffenegger, Dave]

I think it also depends on what your EUT is.   Machinery will typically be full 
of all sorts of loads, motors, transformers, power supplies, computers, 
inductive, capacitive, etc.   The inrush would still be the peak current when 
the mains is switched on or also when the machine is started as they are 
typically two separate events.  These could last several seconds depending on 
the machinery and the incoming power sine wave would probably have little 
effect on it.

-Dave

From: John Woodgate [mailto:jmw1...@btinternet.com]
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 8:00 AM
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

Look at Annex B of IEC/EN 61000-3-3. I did a lot of work on this for that Annex 
and you will often get different results each time, because of differences in 
how the current is interrupted at the previous switch-off. You do not select a 
point on the voltage waveform for the switching instant; you can't, anyway, 
because you must use the product's own mains switch (unless it doesn't have 
one). You switch at random points, because that is what happens in practice.

For duration,  you leave the mains voltage applied until the inrush transient 
is over (look at the current waveform); this is usually after three or fewer 
cycles, but for some products it can be rather longer. Normally, the first 
current peak is the highest, but occasionally the second peak is higher.

With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and Associates 
Rayleigh England

Sylvae in aeternum manent.

From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk]
Sent: 10 August 2017 12:30
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Inrush Current

Hi

We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this function 
on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we get very 
different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.

I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".

I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at 
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?

A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same 
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each other 
such as ringing wave form?

Best regards,

Kim Boll Jensen
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Re: [PSES] Inrush Current

[John Woodgate]

Look at Annex B of IEC/EN 61000-3-3. I did a lot of work on this for that
Annex and you will often get different results each time, because of
differences in how the current is interrupted at the previous switch-off.
You do not select a point on the voltage waveform for the switching instant;
you can't, anyway, because you must use the product's own mains switch
(unless it doesn't have one). You switch at random points, because that is
what happens in practice. 
 
For duration,  you leave the mains voltage applied until the inrush
transient is over (look at the current waveform); this is usually after
three or fewer cycles, but for some products it can be rather longer.
Normally, the first current peak is the highest, but occasionally the second
peak is higher.
 
With best wishes DESIGN IT IN! OOO - Own Opinions Only
  www.jmwa.demon.co.uk J M Woodgate and
Associates Rayleigh England
 
Sylvae in aeternum manent.
 
From: Kim Boll Jensen [mailto:k...@bolls.dk] 
Sent: 10 August 2017 12:30
To: EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Subject: [PSES] Inrush Current
 
Hi
 
We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this
function on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we
get very different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.
 
I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".
 
I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?
 
A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each
other such as ringing wave form?
 
Best regards,
 
Kim Boll Jensen
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[PSES] Inrush Current

[Kim Boll Jensen]

Hi

 

We have several times been asked to test Inrush Current and have this
function on our Harmonic tester, but it is not defined how it measure and we
get very different measurements each time we switch ON the same EUT.

 

I can't find an IEC definition on the measurement other than "peak current".

 

I asume that it is most correctly to measure the current  by switching ON at
the top of the sine (90 deg), but what about duration?

 

A peak current with a duration of 0.1 ms is not as interresting as the same
current for 1 ms. And what if there are several current peaks after each
other such as ringing wave form?

 

Best regards,

 

Kim Boll Jensen


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