Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message 2a93eb060901270504k7eaa02c2n50fc3b9016a03...@mail.gmail.com, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com writes: For LISN calibration, what are the calibration standards that I should fill in in the questionaire requested by a calibration lab? Are ANSI C63.4, CISPR 15, and CISPR 22 appropriate? These are three test standards I use most. No, LISN calibration is in CISPR 16-1-2, where they are called Artificial Mains Networks (AMNs). See clause 4 and Annex A. It is a good move to get your LISNs calibrated. Recent experience at a test house showed significant differences between supposedly good LISNs. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Grace, CISPR 16-1 defines LISNs of 50Ohms||50µH + 5Ohms, 50Ohms||50µH and 50Ohms||5µH +1Ohm. The 150Ohms V-network and the 150Ohms delta-network are also covered. CISPR 22 refers in section 9.3 to CISPR 16-1 for LISNs to be used for testing. Best regards, Michael Nagel Michael Nagel Senior Staff EMC Test Engineer Embedded Computing Emerson Network Power T +49-89-9608-0 F +49-89-9608-2376 michael.na...@emerson.com www.emersonnetworkpower.com/embeddedcomputing Emerson Network Power - Embedded Computing GmbH, Lilienthalstr. 15, D-85579 Neubiberg/Landkreis München, Deutschland / Germany. Geschäftsführer Josef Wenzl, Amtsgericht München HRB 171431, VAT/USt.-ID: DE 127472241 From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Grace Lin Sent: Dienstag, 27. Januar 2009 14:05 To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Calibration Standards for LISN Dear Members, For LISN calibration, what are the calibration standards that I should fill in in the questionaire requested by a calibration lab? Are ANSI C63.4, CISPR 15, and CISPR 22 appropriate? These are three test standards I use most. Thank you and look forward to hearing from you. Best regards, Grace Lin - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
I don't have a copy of CISPR 16 to reference and so I am curious about how one calibrates an AMN? (or an antenna for that matter). I can see characterizing the AMN so that its transducer factor versus frequency is known and can be then used to calculate a uV level. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:22 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration Standards for LISN In message 2a93eb060901270504k7eaa02c2n50fc3b9016a03...@mail.gmail.com, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com writes: For LISN calibration, what are the calibration standards that I should fill in in the questionaire requested by a calibration lab? Are ANSI C63.4, CISPR 15, and CISPR 22 appropriate? These are three test standards I use most. No, LISN calibration is in CISPR 16-1-2, where they are called Artificial Mains Networks (AMNs). See clause 4 and Annex A. It is a good move to get your LISNs calibrated. Recent experience at a test house showed significant differences between supposedly good LISNs. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d043c6...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com writes: I don't have a copy of CISPR 16 to reference and so I am curious about how one calibrates an AMN? (or an antenna for that matter). I can see characterizing the AMN so that its transducer factor versus frequency is known and can be then used to calculate a uV level. That's one thing, and another is the impedance that it 'stabilizes' at. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Ralph, ANSI C63.4 also has the procedure: Section 4.1.2 and Annex E. In short, it's a verification of the LISN impedance and insertion loss characteristics. Typically this requires a network analyzer to perform the verification. Also, if you use AC line filters on the line side of the LISN those should be part of the LISN impedance characterization (no AC mains connected naturally). Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Ralph McDiarmid Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 12:41 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN I don't have a copy of CISPR 16 to reference and so I am curious about how one calibrates an AMN? (or an antenna for that matter). I can see characterizing the AMN so that its transducer factor versus frequency is known and can be then used to calculate a uV level. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 5:22 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration Standards for LISN In message 2a93eb060901270504k7eaa02c2n50fc3b9016a03...@mail.gmail.com, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Grace Lin graceli...@gmail.com writes: For LISN calibration, what are the calibration standards that I should fill in in the questionaire requested by a calibration lab? Are ANSI C63.4, CISPR 15, and CISPR 22 appropriate? These are three test standards I use most. No, LISN calibration is in CISPR 16-1-2, where they are called Artificial Mains Networks (AMNs). See clause 4 and Annex A. It is a good move to get your LISNs calibrated. Recent experience at a test house showed significant differences between supposedly good LISNs. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
-Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer, David H Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 9:58 AM To: Ralph McDiarmid; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ralph, ANSI C63.4 also has the procedure: Section 4.1.2 and Annex E. In short, it's a verification of the LISN impedance and insertion loss characteristics. Typically this requires a network analyzer to perform the verification. Also, if you use AC line filters on the line side of the LISN those should be part of the LISN impedance characterization (no AC mains connected naturally). Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Ed, I agree, and I've verified that with the LISN(s) I use there is no impact; however, ANSI C63.4, E1, b) states that unless it can be shown that the RF filters do not impact the impedance then you must perform the verification with the RF filters in circuit. Really it's a case for either performing the verification in house OR sending the RF filters with the LISN out as part of the calibration (at least once). I know some facility RF line filters are not easily removed! Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:04 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
So I would have to deduce then that ANSI C63.4 is schizophrenic, in that it doesn't trust the specified LISNs to work as they say they should. If the standard wants you to measure the LISN plus your facility filter, then you are characterizing your facility, not just the LISN. Logically, where does it end? Surely the impedance of the local powerlines has a slight effect on the overall impedance, and then what about the generators at the power station? Of course, I'm being absurd here, but why can't they just spec a LISN that provides sufficient isolation under all conditions? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: Spencer, David H [mailto:david.spen...@xerox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:15 AM To: Price, Edward; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ed, I agree, and I've verified that with the LISN(s) I use there is no impact; however, ANSI C63.4, E1, b) states that unless it can be shown that the RF filters do not impact the impedance then you must perform the verification with the RF filters in circuit. Really it's a case for either performing the verification in house OR sending the RF filters with the LISN out as part of the calibration (at least once). I know some facility RF line filters are not easily removed! Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:04 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Could the interaction between a facility mains filter and the line-side impedance of an AMN result in a network with at least one resonant frequency? Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:25 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN So I would have to deduce then that ANSI C63.4 is schizophrenic, in that it doesn't trust the specified LISNs to work as they say they should. If the standard wants you to measure the LISN plus your facility filter, then you are characterizing your facility, not just the LISN. Logically, where does it end? Surely the impedance of the local powerlines has a slight effect on the overall impedance, and then what about the generators at the power station? Of course, I'm being absurd here, but why can't they just spec a LISN that provides sufficient isolation under all conditions? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: Spencer, David H [mailto:david.spen...@xerox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:15 AM To: Price, Edward; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ed, I agree, and I've verified that with the LISN(s) I use there is no impact; however, ANSI C63.4, E1, b) states that unless it can be shown that the RF filters do not impact the impedance then you must perform the verification with the RF filters in circuit. Really it's a case for either performing the verification in house OR sending the RF filters with the LISN out as part of the calibration (at least once). I know some facility RF line filters are not easily removed! Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:04 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? Yes, but the calibration process has to include a verification of that 'unaffected'. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: So I would have to deduce then that ANSI C63.4 is schizophrenic, in that it doesn't trust the specified LISNs to work as they say they should. If the standard wants you to measure the LISN plus your facility filter, then you are characterizing your facility, not just the LISN. I don't know that C63.4 actually requires that. In CISR16, it's only filters built in to the LISN that are included in the calibration. You can run a Z/F curve with the mains port open-circuit and then another with it short-circuit. If both are within tolerance, the filter is OK. But you DO have to check, because one or more of the filter capacitors might have failed. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Ed, I've seen white board presentations at the IEEE Symposia, that suggest that the AC mains impedance does impact the final conducted emissions reading. A quick glance at Lab 34 (or CISPR 16-4-2) show that in terms of uncertainty the LISN impedance variations can account for as-much-as 3.6dB. All that being said, I didn't write the standard. I don't see any variation in my facility when I connect or disconnect the LISNs. BUT, as many lab are accredited these days and it is part of a standard that many use, it's worth at least taking a look at if for no other reason than quantifying the uncertainty rather than using the generic figures (which I'm sure no one does). Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:25 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN So I would have to deduce then that ANSI C63.4 is schizophrenic, in that it doesn't trust the specified LISNs to work as they say they should. If the standard wants you to measure the LISN plus your facility filter, then you are characterizing your facility, not just the LISN. Logically, where does it end? Surely the impedance of the local powerlines has a slight effect on the overall impedance, and then what about the generators at the power station? Of course, I'm being absurd here, but why can't they just spec a LISN that provides sufficient isolation under all conditions? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: Spencer, David H [mailto:david.spen...@xerox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:15 AM To: Price, Edward; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ed, I agree, and I've verified that with the LISN(s) I use there is no impact; however, ANSI C63.4, E1, b) states that unless it can be shown that the RF filters do not impact the impedance then you must perform the verification with the RF filters in circuit. Really it's a case for either performing the verification in house OR sending the RF filters with the LISN out as part of the calibration (at least once). I know some facility RF line filters are not easily removed! Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:04 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
-Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:37 AM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: Re: Calibration Standards for LISN In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? Yes, but the calibration process has to include a verification of that 'unaffected'. Just want to clarify our terms here. When you calibrate, is this describing a process where you compare something to a standard value, and then adjust the something into as similar a condition as possible? In the case of an LISN, there are no adjustable components available. It seems like when we measure the parameters of an LISN, we simply then declare it good or bad; within the acceptable tolerance or not. I would call this a characterization, not a calibration. Right? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message de87437fe365cb458c265ea3d73b6f1d043c6...@xbc-mail1.xantrex.com, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Ralph McDiarmid ralph.mcdiar...@xantrex.com writes: Could the interaction between a facility mains filter and the line-side impedance of an AMN result in a network with at least one resonant frequency? Apply Murphy's Law. The answer is then obvious. (;-) -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Dave John: Certainly I agree that all of a lab's LISNs should be on periodic calibration. Anything that's in you signal path, or that affects the signal being measured, should be controlled in the lab environment. If there is a concern about how well the LISN creates the artificial impedance that it is supposed to present to the EUT, then there's three ways to verify that. First, you could specify the LISN be characterized with the facility powerline filter. In effect, this is a characterization of your whole facility. Not bad, but certainly cumbersome, especially for those labs that have to send everything to an outside metrology lab! Second, you could characterize the LISN using several extreme impedances placed on its input (short or open). This would satisfy me, but possibly someone might wonder if there might not be some strange interactions at intermediate impedances. So, to satisfy EVERYONE, you might be forced to use a large number of input impedances, or even asked to somehow present a swept impedance. That could be a long science project. Third, you could design an LISN such that the inherent circuit precludes any powerline impedance from affecting the EUT side impedance (to some tolerance). That way, all you would have to do is characterize the EUT side impedance once, and also verify that the circuit components are also unchanged from the original design. I guess I lean toward the third option, since it puts more of the burden on the LISN designer (who ought to be a super expert), and simplifies the workload on the test lab's staff. Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: Spencer, David H [mailto:david.spen...@xerox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:46 AM To: Price, Edward; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ed, I've seen white board presentations at the IEEE Symposia, that suggest that the AC mains impedance does impact the final conducted emissions reading. A quick glance at Lab 34 (or CISPR 16-4-2) show that in terms of uncertainty the LISN impedance variations can account for as-much-as 3.6dB. All that being said, I didn't write the standard. I don't see any variation in my facility when I connect or disconnect the LISNs. BUT, as many lab are accredited these days and it is part of a standard that many use, it's worth at least taking a look at if for no other reason than quantifying the uncertainty rather than using the generic figures (which I'm sure no one does). Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:25 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN So I would have to deduce then that ANSI C63.4 is schizophrenic, in that it doesn't trust the specified LISNs to work as they say they should. If the standard wants you to measure the LISN plus your facility filter, then you are characterizing your facility, not just the LISN. Logically, where does it end? Surely the impedance of the local powerlines has a slight effect on the overall impedance, and then what about the generators at the power station? Of course, I'm being absurd here, but why can't they just spec a LISN that provides sufficient isolation under all conditions? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: I guess I lean toward the third option, since it puts more of the burden on the LISN designer (who ought to be a super expert), and simplifies the workload on the test lab's staff. Actually, I found the design of a 10 A (max) 50 μH/50 ohm LISN not so difficult. The 50 μH inductor is air-cored, of course, and wound on plastic water pipe. I built a standard 16 A appliance filter into the box, which prevents anything above 150 kHz from the incoming mains affecting anything downstream of it. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
Re: Calibration Standards for LISN
In message 9d04b979323dcd428297dda95108893e0120c...@bb-corp-ex2.corp.cubic.cub, dated Tue, 27 Jan 2009, Price, Edward ed.pr...@cubic.com writes: Just want to clarify our terms here. When you calibrate, is this describing a process where you compare something to a standard value, and then adjust the something into as similar a condition as possible? In the case of an LISN, there are no adjustable components available. It seems like when we measure the parameters of an LISN, we simply then declare it good or bad; within the acceptable tolerance or not. I would call this a characterization, not a calibration. You are right. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
Which brings up a point just to add for accredited labs that do this in-house. I agree that it is a characterization and not a calibration, My understanding is that if you do this in house you may have make sure that you meet the Accreditation Body Traceability requirements as an in-house calibration, which would include uncertainty calculations for the characterization measurement and all other applicable requirements. Have witnessed some interesting discussions on this. Best regards, Mac Elliott [] Motorola Confidential Restricted (MCR), [ X ] Motorola Internal Use Only [] General Public From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Spencer, David H Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:46 PM To: Price, Edward; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ed, I've seen white board presentations at the IEEE Symposia, that suggest that the AC mains impedance does impact the final conducted emissions reading. A quick glance at Lab 34 (or CISPR 16-4-2) show that in terms of uncertainty the LISN impedance variations can account for as-much-as 3.6dB. All that being said, I didn't write the standard. I don't see any variation in my facility when I connect or disconnect the LISNs. BUT, as many lab are accredited these days and it is part of a standard that many use, it's worth at least taking a look at if for no other reason than quantifying the uncertainty rather than using the generic figures (which I'm sure no one does). Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:25 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN So I would have to deduce then that ANSI C63.4 is schizophrenic, in that it doesn't trust the specified LISNs to work as they say they should. If the standard wants you to measure the LISN plus your facility filter, then you are characterizing your facility, not just the LISN. Logically, where does it end? Surely the impedance of the local powerlines has a slight effect on the overall impedance, and then what about the generators at the power station? Of course, I'm being absurd here, but why can't they just spec a LISN that provides sufficient isolation under all conditions? Ed Price ed.pr...@cubic.com WB6WSN NARTE Certified EMC Engineer Electromagnetic Compatibility Lab Cubic Defense Applications San Diego, CA USA 858-505-2780 Military Avionics EMC Is Our Specialty -Original Message- From: Spencer, David H [mailto:david.spen...@xerox.com] Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 10:15 AM To: Price, Edward; emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN Ed, I agree, and I've verified that with the LISN(s) I use there is no impact; however, ANSI C63.4, E1, b) states that unless it can be shown that the RF filters do not impact the impedance then you must perform the verification with the RF filters in circuit. Really it's a case for either performing the verification in house OR sending the RF filters with the LISN out as part of the calibration (at least once). I know some facility RF line filters are not easily removed! Regards, Dave Spencer EMC Engineer Xerox Corp. -Original Message- From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of Price, Edward Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 1:04 PM To: emc-p...@ieee.org Subject: RE: Calibration Standards for LISN But isn't it the purpose of the AMN to present an impedance to the EUT which is unaffected by whatever unknown impedance exists at the source of the power? - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell
RE: Calibration Standards for LISN
True also for an antenna, I assume. Ralph McDiarmid, AScT Compliance Engineering Group Xantrex Technology Inc From: emc-p...@ieee.org [mailto:emc-p...@ieee.org] On Behalf Of John Woodgate Sent: Tuesday, January 27, 2009 11:25 AM snip In the case of an LISN, there are no adjustable components available. It seems like when we measure the parameters of an LISN, we simply then declare it good or bad; within the acceptable tolerance or not. I would call this a characterization, not a calibration. You are right. -- OOO - Own Opinions Only. Try www.jmwa.demon.co.uk and www.isce.org.uk Things can always get better. But that's not the only option. John Woodgate, J M Woodgate and Associates, Rayleigh, Essex UK - - This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to emc-p...@ieee.org All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: http://www.ieeecommunities.org/emc-pstc Graphics (in well-used formats), large files, etc. can be posted to that URL. Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/ Instructions: http://listserv.ieee.org/request/user-guide.html List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html For help, send mail to the list administrators: Scott Douglas emcp...@ptcnh.net Mike Cantwell mcantw...@ieee.org For policy questions, send mail to: Jim Bacher: j.bac...@ieee.org David Heald: dhe...@gmail.com
