RE: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-09 Thread Grasso, Charles (Chaz)

Go ahead and put it on the pwb. We do it anf
it works very well. There is a caveat though -
pay a lot of attention to the layout and final
installation.

-Original Message-
From: POWELL, DOUG [mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com]
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 10:16 AM
To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail); Treg Listserv (E-mail)
Subject: Open Frame EMI Filters



Hello group,
 
For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters with a fully
enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are there
specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build up the filter
circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral part of the
power supply.  
 
I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal tests but after
reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or environmental
conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the enclosure it
would seem that the product has passed, period.
 
Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature EMI filter and
simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part of the overall
system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety requirements, can I call
the job complete?
 
Any thoughts?
 
===
Douglas E. Powell
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
1625 Sharp Point Dr.
Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
m/s: 2018
---
970-407-6410 (phone)
970-407-5410 (e-fax)
800-446-9167 (toll-free)
mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com 
http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com 
===

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RE: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-09 Thread Frank West

Hi Doug!

Ignoring the EMC questions (as I can safely do, being
a product safety division engineer at TUV!) the
enclosure of the open frame supply would have to meet
the same safety requirements as any other enclosure
around a hazardous voltage circuit.  The creepage and
clearance distances between the exposed hazardous
voltage components and the accessible surfaces in
finished product would have to be adaquate.  

Of course, if you are just producing the filter that
is not your concern!

Regards,

Frank West
Sr. Engineer
TUV Rheinland NA


--- POWELL, DOUG doug.pow...@aei.com wrote:
 
 Hello once again,
 
 I have already received a number of replies to my
 query indicating that the
 metallic enclosure is required for low inductance
 coupling to the components
 or to prevent radiation between circuits within the
 product.  This is not my
 question.
 
 Please remember that one of the criteria that I
 described for the open frame
 is the passing all applicable EMC tests.  This means
 that the open-frame
 design that I propose meets both radiated and
 conducted emissions levels,
 without the metallic box.  My questions deals more
 with why is the enclosure
 required if product passes the tests without it.  In
 the past I have
 designed a few products with a simple PCB for
 emissions control.  I
 compensated for the internal re-radiation problem.  
 
 Recently I heard of a commercial EMI Filter company
 that says the enclosure
 is required and that the encapsulant is a
 requirement.  I disagree.
 
 -doug
 
 ===
 Douglas E. Powell
 Regulatory Compliance Engineer
 Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
 1625 Sharp Point Dr.
 Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
 m/s: 2018
 ---
 970-407-6410 (phone)
 970-407-5410 (e-fax)
 800-446-9167 (toll-free)
 mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
 http://www.advanced-energy.com
 ===
 
 
 
  
   Hello group,
  
   For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom
 EMI filters 
  with a fully
   enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure
 required?  Are there
   specific provisions in the standards?  My idea
 is to build 
  up the filter
   circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it
 an integral 
  part of the
   power supply.
  
   I am currently looking at EN133200 which has
 certain seal 
  tests but after
   reviewing these, they all appear to be related
 to climatic or
  environmental
   conditions.  If the product passes these tests
 without the 
  enclosure it
   would seem that the product has passed, period.
  
   Alternatively I have considered removing the
 nomenclature 
  EMI filter and
   simply call it an input module, then evaluate it
 as a part 
  of the overall
   system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety
 
  requirements, can I call
   the job complete?
  
   Any thoughts?
  
   ===
   Douglas E. Powell
   Regulatory Compliance Engineer
   Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
   1625 Sharp Point Dr.
   Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
   m/s: 2018
   ---
   970-407-6410 (phone)
   970-407-5410 (e-fax)
   800-446-9167 (toll-free)
   mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
 mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
   http://www.advanced-energy.com
 http://www.advanced-energy.com
   ===
  
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=
Frank West
Senior Engineer
TUV Rheinland of North America
NW/Portland OR Office
__
Do You Yahoo!?
Thousands of Stores.  Millions of Products.  All in one place.
Yahoo! Shopping: http://shopping.yahoo.com

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Re: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-09 Thread Ralph Cameron

Doug:

It would seem logical that the shield will guarantee a high degree of
immunity to local radiated fields.  If the filter is a commerical one its
specs are probably dependent on the shield being in situ.  Even though it
may meet the EMC  test requirement, there is an added degree of safety
 i.e. equipment malfunction) with the filter in place. If there is line
voltage appearing on any of the components and they are in areas used by
service people then the question of electrical safety is addressed by having
a shield.   This is only my opinion.

Ralph Cameron
EMC Consultant and Suppression of Consumer Electronics
(After Sale)

- Original Message -
From: POWELL, DOUG doug.pow...@aei.com
To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; Treg Listserv (E-mail)
t...@world.std.com
Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 1999 2:19 PM
Subject: RE: Open Frame EMI Filters



 Hello once again,

 I have already received a number of replies to my query indicating that
the
 metallic enclosure is required for low inductance coupling to the
components
 or to prevent radiation between circuits within the product.  This is not
my
 question.

 Please remember that one of the criteria that I described for the open
frame
 is the passing all applicable EMC tests.  This means that the open-frame
 design that I propose meets both radiated and conducted emissions levels,
 without the metallic box.  My questions deals more with why is the
enclosure
 required if product passes the tests without it.  In the past I have
 designed a few products with a simple PCB for emissions control.  I
 compensated for the internal re-radiation problem.

 Recently I heard of a commercial EMI Filter company that says the
enclosure
 is required and that the encapsulant is a requirement.  I disagree.

 -doug

 ===
 Douglas E. Powell
 Regulatory Compliance Engineer
 Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
 1625 Sharp Point Dr.
 Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
 m/s: 2018
 ---
 970-407-6410 (phone)
 970-407-5410 (e-fax)
 800-446-9167 (toll-free)
 mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
 http://www.advanced-energy.com
 ===



  
   Hello group,
  
   For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters
  with a fully
   enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are there
   specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build
  up the filter
   circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral
  part of the
   power supply.
  
   I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal
  tests but after
   reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or
  environmental
   conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the
  enclosure it
   would seem that the product has passed, period.
  
   Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature
  EMI filter and
   simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part
  of the overall
   system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety
  requirements, can I call
   the job complete?
  
   Any thoughts?
  
   ===
   Douglas E. Powell
   Regulatory Compliance Engineer
   Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
   1625 Sharp Point Dr.
   Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
   m/s: 2018
   ---
   970-407-6410 (phone)
   970-407-5410 (e-fax)
   800-446-9167 (toll-free)
   mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
   http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com
   ===
  
   -
   This message is coming from the emc-pstc discussion list.
   To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
   with the single line: unsubscribe emc-pstc (without the
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   jim_bac...@monarch.com, ri...@sdd.hp.com, or
   roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
  
  
 
 
 
 
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RE: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-09 Thread Art Michael

Hi Jim,

This thread takes me 'back to the eighties' (when I first entered the c-a
field and was working with UL 478: You are correct with your comments
regarding the perceived flammability of line filter caps.

The scenerio is/was that live parts are required to be enclosed (in the
US, per the NEC and ANSI/UL standards).  All can agree to that, I believe. 
X-caps were (are still?) available both with a flame-rated potting
compound and without.  Those not meeting requisite flame-ratings for
polymeric enclosures were required to be enclosed (which could be
accomodated by properly flame-rate barriers, potting, or the outer
enclosure of the device in which they were contained). 

Also, since standards allow the filter-caps to be wired-in prior to the
switch and fuse/s, they are continually at risk for equipment that is
plugged-in all the time.

Regards, Art Michael

Int'l Product Safety News
A.E. Michael, Editor
166 Congdon St. East
P.O. Box 1561 
Middletown CT 06457 U.S.A.

Phone  :  (860) 344-1651
Fax:  (860) 346-9066
Email  :  i...@connix.com
Website:  http://www.safetylink.com
ISSN   :  1040-7529
--
 

On Wed, 8 Dec 1999, Jim Eichner wrote:

 
 A couple of other thoughts:  
 
 - Used to be that everyone thought X and Y cap's were hideously
 fire-hazardous.  Perhaps the UL and CSA standards for line filters
 require a can (ie fire enclosure) around them, even if they are approved
 and even if the filter goes inside the outer (equipment) enclosure.
 
 - Potting will allow you to meet reduced creepage and clearance that may
 be crucial in obtaining decent high frequency attenuation from the
 filter.
 
 Regards,
 
 Jim Eichner
  Senior Regulatory Compliance Engineer
 Statpower Technologies Corporation
 jeich...@statpower.com
 http://www.statpower.com
 Any opinions expressed are those of my invisible friend, who really
 exists.  Honest.
 
 
  -Original Message-
  From:   POWELL, DOUG [SMTP:doug.pow...@aei.com]
  Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 2:20 PM
  To: emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org; Treg Listserv (E-mail)
  Subject:RE: Open Frame EMI Filters
  
  
  Hello once again,
  
  I have already received a number of replies to my query indicating
  that the
  metallic enclosure is required for low inductance coupling to the
  components
  or to prevent radiation between circuits within the product.  This is
  not my
  question.
  
  Please remember that one of the criteria that I described for the open
  frame
  is the passing all applicable EMC tests.  This means that the
  open-frame
  design that I propose meets both radiated and conducted emissions
  levels,
  without the metallic box.  My questions deals more with why is the
  enclosure
  required if product passes the tests without it.  In the past I have
  designed a few products with a simple PCB for emissions control.  I
  compensated for the internal re-radiation problem.  
  
  Recently I heard of a commercial EMI Filter company that says the
  enclosure
  is required and that the encapsulant is a requirement.  I disagree.
  
  -doug
  
  ===
  Douglas E. Powell
  Regulatory Compliance Engineer
  Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
  1625 Sharp Point Dr.
  Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
  m/s: 2018
  ---
  970-407-6410 (phone)
  970-407-5410 (e-fax)
  800-446-9167 (toll-free)
  mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
  http://www.advanced-energy.com
  ===
  
  
  
   
Hello group,
   
For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters 
   with a fully
enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are
  there
specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build 
   up the filter
circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral 
   part of the
power supply.
   
I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal 
   tests but after
reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or
   environmental
conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the 
   enclosure it
would seem that the product has passed, period.
   
Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature 
   EMI filter and
simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part 
   of the overall
system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety 
   requirements, can I call
the job complete?
   
Any thoughts?
   
===
Douglas E. Powell
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
1625 Sharp Point Dr.
Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
m/s: 2018
---
970-407-6410 (phone)
970-407-5410 (e-fax)
800-446-9167 (toll-free)
mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com

RE: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-09 Thread teckert

You do not need a metal case for an EMI filter.  It is perfectly acceptable
to put a pair of Y capacitors, a common mode choke and an X cap on a
circuit board to form a basic line filter.  (Be careful; if you use Y1
capacitors, a single capacitor may be used between line and earth.  If you
use Y2 or Y4 capacitors,  you must use two capacitors in series.)

The main reason for a metal case is to prevent radiated coupling of noise
from one side of the filter to the other.  If you have a metal enclosure,
use a metal encased bulkhead filter.  This is the best situation because it
will provide a high level of EMI suppression.  If your product is in a
non-metallic enclosure, the filter case has less of an effect.  Just make
sure that the filter is as close to the power entry as possible.  If you
have a lot of unfiltered power lines around the electronics, noise can
radiate around the filter causing problems with conducted emissions.
Conversely, noise on the power lines can radiate around the filter and
cause problems with susceptibility.  The filter will still help, but it
will not be as effective as a bulkhead filter with a metal enclosure.

Ted Eckert
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
American Power Conversion

The items contained in this e-mail reflect the personal opinions of the
writer and are only provided for the assistance of the reader.  The writer
is not speaking in an official capacity for APC nor representing APC’s
official position on any matter.



Please respond to POWELL, DOUG doug.pow...@aei.com

To:   emc-p...@majordomo.ieee.org, Treg Listserv (E-mail)
  t...@world.std.com
cc:(bcc: Ted Eckert/SDD/NAM/APCC)
From: POWELL, DOUG doug.pow...@aei.com on 12/08/99 04:19 PM
Subject:  RE: Open Frame EMI Filters




Hello once again,

I have already received a number of replies to my query indicating that the
metallic enclosure is required for low inductance coupling to the
components
or to prevent radiation between circuits within the product.  This is not
my
question.

Please remember that one of the criteria that I described for the open
frame
is the passing all applicable EMC tests.  This means that the open-frame
design that I propose meets both radiated and conducted emissions levels,
without the metallic box.  My questions deals more with why is the
enclosure
required if product passes the tests without it.  In the past I have
designed a few products with a simple PCB for emissions control.  I
compensated for the internal re-radiation problem.

Recently I heard of a commercial EMI Filter company that says the enclosure
is required and that the encapsulant is a requirement.  I disagree.

-doug

===
Douglas E. Powell
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
1625 Sharp Point Dr.
Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
m/s: 2018
---
970-407-6410 (phone)
970-407-5410 (e-fax)
800-446-9167 (toll-free)
mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
http://www.advanced-energy.com
===



 
  Hello group,
 
  For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters
 with a fully
  enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are there
  specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build
 up the filter
  circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral
 part of the
  power supply.
 
  I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal
 tests but after
  reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or
 environmental
  conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the
 enclosure it
  would seem that the product has passed, period.
 
  Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature
 EMI filter and
  simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part
 of the overall
  system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety
 requirements, can I call
  the job complete?
 
  Any thoughts?
 
  ===
  Douglas E. Powell
  Regulatory Compliance Engineer
  Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
  1625 Sharp Point Dr.
  Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
  m/s: 2018
  ---
  970-407-6410 (phone)
  970-407-5410 (e-fax)
  800-446-9167 (toll-free)
  mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
  http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com
  ===
 
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RE: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-08 Thread POWELL, DOUG

Hello once again,

I have already received a number of replies to my query indicating that the
metallic enclosure is required for low inductance coupling to the components
or to prevent radiation between circuits within the product.  This is not my
question.

Please remember that one of the criteria that I described for the open frame
is the passing all applicable EMC tests.  This means that the open-frame
design that I propose meets both radiated and conducted emissions levels,
without the metallic box.  My questions deals more with why is the enclosure
required if product passes the tests without it.  In the past I have
designed a few products with a simple PCB for emissions control.  I
compensated for the internal re-radiation problem.  

Recently I heard of a commercial EMI Filter company that says the enclosure
is required and that the encapsulant is a requirement.  I disagree.

-doug

===
Douglas E. Powell
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
1625 Sharp Point Dr.
Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
m/s: 2018
---
970-407-6410 (phone)
970-407-5410 (e-fax)
800-446-9167 (toll-free)
mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
http://www.advanced-energy.com
===



 
  Hello group,
 
  For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters 
 with a fully
  enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are there
  specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build 
 up the filter
  circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral 
 part of the
  power supply.
 
  I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal 
 tests but after
  reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or
 environmental
  conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the 
 enclosure it
  would seem that the product has passed, period.
 
  Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature 
 EMI filter and
  simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part 
 of the overall
  system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety 
 requirements, can I call
  the job complete?
 
  Any thoughts?
 
  ===
  Douglas E. Powell
  Regulatory Compliance Engineer
  Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
  1625 Sharp Point Dr.
  Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
  m/s: 2018
  ---
  970-407-6410 (phone)
  970-407-5410 (e-fax)
  800-446-9167 (toll-free)
  mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
  http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com
  ===
 
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  To cancel your subscription, send mail to majord...@ieee.org
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  roger.volgst...@compaq.com (the list administrators).
 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-08 Thread Ludger Revermann

Hello Doug,

I think the enclosure of EMI filters is necessary.
The enclosure (normally metallic and, if the filter should work well,
connected to ground) prevents, that for example by radiation, disturbing
signals could get into your filtered equipment.
The filter would be bypassed.

Regards

Ludger Revermann


-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: POWELL, DOUG doug.pow...@aei.com
An: EMC-PSTC (E-mail) emc-p...@ieee.org; Treg Listserv (E-mail)
t...@world.std.com
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 8. Dezember 1999 18:16
Betreff: Open Frame EMI Filters



 Hello group,

 For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters with a fully
 enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are there
 specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build up the filter
 circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral part of the
 power supply.

 I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal tests but after
 reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or
environmental
 conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the enclosure it
 would seem that the product has passed, period.

 Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature EMI filter and
 simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part of the overall
 system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety requirements, can I call
 the job complete?

 Any thoughts?

 ===
 Douglas E. Powell
 Regulatory Compliance Engineer
 Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
 1625 Sharp Point Dr.
 Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
 m/s: 2018
 ---
 970-407-6410 (phone)
 970-407-5410 (e-fax)
 800-446-9167 (toll-free)
 mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com
 http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com
 ===

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RE: Open Frame EMI Filters

1999-12-08 Thread Andrews, Kurt

Doug,

We have a piece of I.T.E. equipment that we designed that has dual power
supplies with an EMI filter on the AC input of both supplies. We designed
our own filters for this particular unit. They are simply small through-hole
PC Boards (about 1 x 4) with the components (inductors and capacitors)
mounted on the boards. They have male faston connectors at each end of the
board for attaching the wires for the AC in from the IEC connector and AC
out to the supplies. These are mounted to standoffs in the unit via screws.
There is no cover over or around these filter boards other than the top
cover of the equipment. So the only way to access them is to take the cover
off of the unit. This unit has undergone safety certification at TÜV Product
Service to EN60950. The unit has also passed all of the required EMC tests
for CE Marking. The open frame filter boards did not cause any problems at
either test lab.

Kurt Andrews
Compliance Engineer
Tracewell Systems, Inc.
567 Enterprise Dr.
Westerville, OH 43081
Ph. 614-846-6175
Fax 614-846-7791
Email: kandr...@tracewell.com 


-Original Message-
From:   POWELL, DOUG [SMTP:doug.pow...@aei.com]
Sent:   Wednesday, December 08, 1999 12:16 PM
To: EMC-PSTC (E-mail); Treg Listserv (E-mail)
Subject:Open Frame EMI Filters


Hello group,
 
For years I have used off-the-shelf and custom EMI filters with a
fully
enclosed metal canister.  Why is this enclosure required?  Are there
specific provisions in the standards?  My idea is to build up the
filter
circuit on a printed circuit board and  make it an integral part of
the
power supply.  
 
I am currently looking at EN133200 which has certain seal tests but
after
reviewing these, they all appear to be related to climatic or
environmental
conditions.  If the product passes these tests without the enclosure
it
would seem that the product has passed, period.
 
Alternatively I have considered removing the nomenclature EMI
filter and
simply call it an input module, then evaluate it as a part of the
overall
system.  If it passes the EMC and Product Safety requirements, can I
call
the job complete?
 
Any thoughts?
 
===
Douglas E. Powell
Regulatory Compliance Engineer
Advanced Energy Industries, Inc.
1625 Sharp Point Dr.
Fort Collins, Colorado 80525 USA
m/s: 2018
---
970-407-6410 (phone)
970-407-5410 (e-fax)
800-446-9167 (toll-free)
mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com mailto:doug.pow...@aei.com 
http://www.advanced-energy.com http://www.advanced-energy.com 
===

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