subject:"Re\: \[PSES\] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory \/ industrial environmental use"

Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

2022-08-18 Thread Douglas E Powell

I have worked with H.V. power supplies in the past, and there is a point
where IEC-based standards simply run out.

In most cases, I found certifying agencies are accepting of IEC 61010-1 (or
national derivatives) using the tables in Annex K (2010 edition). You still
need to pay attention to the mains voltage, but in your case I believe the
spacings you need are all secondary circuits. Starting at Table K.10 and
following.  In there you will find clearance and creepage requirements up
to 63 kV.  This will apply to steady state voltages as well as calculations
for plasma strike voltages, in the standard referred to as temporary
overvoltages or repetitive peaks.

Above 63 kV, I found some agencies I worked with were willing to accept an
engineering rationale using classical HV e-field evaluation for uniform
fields around geometric structures for clearances; and a linear
extrapolation for creepage, up to as high as 200 kV.  Of course, creepage
can never be less than clearance in your results.  And you must pay
close attention to electrode shaping, CTI, Pollution Degree, altitude, etc.
I also found it very helpful to study parts of the IEC 60664-X standards.
There is a wealth of information there.

The considerations for solid insulation are very different, and the old
rule of thumb using 0.4mm thickness for everything is no where close to
accurate.  Let's just say that small thicknesses like that are almost
useless after a point, and especially when the solid insulation is adjacent
to an air gap, which essentially forms a multiple dielectric capacitor.  As
it turns out, almost 100% of the voltage distributed across the dielectric
stack up is impressed almost entirely on the air layer, as opposed to that
of the solid insulation layer.

Best of luck,  -Doug

Douglas E Powell
Laporte, Colorado USA
doug...@gmail.com
LinkedIn 

(UTC -06:00) Mountain Time (US-MDT)

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 1:43 PM  wrote:

> Dear experts,
>
>
>
> A client is looking for regulatory guidance to CE certify a high voltage
> output supply  (with regular AC mains 230V/50Hz input).
>
> The supply has an output voltage upto 25kV (upto 50kHz) output.   It
> concerns a supply to be used for plasma reactor applications.
>
>
>
> As the output voltage is not inside the  voltage limits for the Low
> Voltage Directive, the LVD directive is not applicable?
>
> The  Machine Directive also excludes these high voltage products.
>
>
>
> So, wondering which Directive to apply related tot he safety testing
> part.  (The General Safety Product Directive?)
>
> Any suggestions as to which safety standard to apply for such products?
>
>
>
> Any suggestions are highly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks !
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
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Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

2022-08-18 Thread bart . de . geeter

Thanks Gert,

 

I agree with you that the LVD directive is indeed applicable: 

 

I looked up the original tekst which states the below:  (the confusion was that 
another source was stating that both input and output voltages needed to fit 
within these limits, which does not seem to be the case. )  The standards you 
refer were indeed also the onces we were considering at first.

Article 1

Subject matter and scope

The purpose of this Directive is to ensure that electrical equipment on the 
market fulfils the requirements providing for a high level of protection of 
health and safety of persons, and of domestic animals and property, while 
guaranteeing the functioning of the internal market.

This Directive shall apply to electrical equipment designed for use with a 
voltage rating of between 50 and 1 000 V for alternating current and between 75 
and 1 500 V for direct current, other than the equipment and phenomena listed 
in Annex II.

 

 

Thanks for your help !

 

Greetings,

Bart

 

Van: Gert Gremmen  
Verzonden: donderdag 18 augustus 2022 21:59
Aan: bart.de.gee...@telenet.be; EMC-PSTC@LISTSERV.IEEE.ORG
Onderwerp: Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory 
/ industrial environmental use

 

Dear Bart,

As the input is within the LVD limit, the whole equipment is.

EN 61326-1 comes to mind for EMC

EN 61010-1 for electrical safety

The output is just a "circuit" (in terms of 61010) and clearance and creepage 
requirement (up to 60 kV) are given in Table 6 and 7

There are more requirements than just clearance and creepage.

Good luck in making your equipment safe.

Gert Gremmen

 

On 18-8-2022 21:43, bart.de.gee...@telenet.be 
<mailto:bart.de.gee...@telenet.be>  wrote:

Dear experts,

 

A client is looking for regulatory guidance to CE certify a high voltage output 
supply  (with regular AC mains 230V/50Hz input).

The supply has an output voltage upto 25kV (upto 50kHz) output.   It concerns a 
supply to be used for plasma reactor applications.

 

As the output voltage is not inside the  voltage limits for the Low Voltage 
Directive, the LVD directive is not applicable?

The  Machine Directive also excludes these high voltage products.

 

So, wondering which Directive to apply related tot he safety testing part.  
(The General Safety Product Directive?)  

Any suggestions as to which safety standard to apply for such products?

 

Any suggestions are highly appreciated.

 

Thanks !

-


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-- 
Independent Expert on CE marking 
EMC Consultant
Electrical Safety Consultant

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

2022-08-18 Thread Scott Aldous

You may find this article from UL helpful:

https://code-authorities.ul.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/40/2015/02/UL_WP_Final_Effects-of-High-Frequency-Voltage-Stress-on-Air-Insulation-and-Solid-Insulation_v4_HR.pdf

On Thu, Aug 18, 2022 at 12:59 PM Gert Gremmen  wrote:

> Dear Bart,
>
> As the input is within the LVD limit, the whole equipment is.
>
> EN 61326-1 comes to mind for EMC
>
> EN 61010-1 for electrical safety
>
> The output is just a "circuit" (in terms of 61010) and clearance and
> creepage requirement (up to 60 kV) are given in Table 6 and 7
>
> There are more requirements than just clearance and creepage.
>
> Good luck in making your equipment safe.
>
> Gert Gremmen
>
>
> On 18-8-2022 21:43, bart.de.gee...@telenet.be wrote:
>
> Dear experts,
>
>
>
> A client is looking for regulatory guidance to CE certify a high voltage
> output supply  (with regular AC mains 230V/50Hz input).
>
> The supply has an output voltage upto 25kV (upto 50kHz) output.   It
> concerns a supply to be used for plasma reactor applications.
>
>
>
> As the output voltage is not inside the  voltage limits for the Low
> Voltage Directive, the LVD directive is not applicable?
>
> The  Machine Directive also excludes these high voltage products.
>
>
>
> So, wondering which Directive to apply related tot he safety testing
> part.  (The General Safety Product Directive?)
>
> Any suggestions as to which safety standard to apply for such products?
>
>
>
> Any suggestions are highly appreciated.
>
>
>
> Thanks !
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to <
> emc-p...@ieee.org>
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
> Mike Cantwell 
>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher 
> David Heald 
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link:
> https://listserv.ieee.org/cgi-bin/wa?SUBED1=EMC-PSTC=1
>
> --
> Independent Expert on CE marking
> EMC Consultant
> Electrical Safety Consultant
>
> -
> 
>
> This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society emc-pstc
> discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 
> emc-p...@ieee.org
>
> All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at:
> http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html
>
> Website: http://www.ieee-pses.org/
> Instructions: http://www.ieee-pses.org/list.html (including how to
> unsubscribe) 
> List rules: http://www.ieee-pses.org/listrules.html
>
> For help, send mail to the list administrators:
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>
> For policy questions, send mail to:
> Jim Bacher j.bac...@ieee.org
> David Heald dhe...@gmail.com
> --
>
> To unsubscribe from the EMC-PSTC list, click the following link:
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>


-- 
Scott Aldous | Regulatory Compliance Manager | scottald...@google.com |
 650-253-1994

-

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Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

2022-08-18 Thread Gert Gremmen


Dear Bart,

As the input is within the LVD limit, the whole equipment is.

EN 61326-1 comes to mind for EMC

EN 61010-1 for electrical safety

The output is just a "circuit" (in terms of 61010) and clearance and 
creepage requirement (up to 60 kV) are given in Table 6 and 7


There are more requirements than just clearance and creepage.

Good luck in making your equipment safe.

Gert Gremmen


On 18-8-2022 21:43, bart.de.gee...@telenet.be wrote:


Dear experts,

A client is looking for regulatory guidance to CE certify a high 
voltage output supply  (with regular AC mains 230V/50Hz input).


The supply has an output voltage upto 25kV (upto 50kHz) output.   It 
concerns a supply to be used for plasma reactor applications.


As the output voltage is not inside the  voltage limits for the Low 
Voltage Directive, the LVD directive is not applicable?


The  Machine Directive also excludes these high voltage products.

So, wondering which Directive to apply related tot he safety testing 
part.  (The General Safety Product Directive?)


Any suggestions as to which safety standard to apply for such products?

Any suggestions are highly appreciated.

Thanks !

-


This message is from the IEEE Product Safety Engineering Society 
emc-pstc discussion list. To post a message to the list, send your 
e-mail to 


All emc-pstc postings are archived and searchable on the web at: 
http://www.ieee-pses.org/emc-pstc.html


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unsubscribe) 

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Mike Cantwell 

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Jim Bacher 
David Heald 



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--
Independent Expert on CE marking
EMC Consultant
Electrical Safety Consultant

-

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list. To post a message to the list, send your e-mail to 

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	Harmonised Standards (HAS-) Consultant @ European Commission for RED, LVD=
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Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

Re: [PSES] CE marking of a high voltage output supply for laboratory / industrial environmental use

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