Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[andy pugh]

On 18 January 2016 at 01:40, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> Which reminds me, trolling on ebay last night, I came across a 95 watt,
> 60,000 rpm 3 phase spindle with an R11 setup, new, for a hundred dollar
> bill.  So I went looking for an inverter. 17 pages of inverters later,
> there was not a single phase powered inverter in any size below 2.2KW.

This one is "only" 1.5kW and runs to 2500Hz.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5KW-2HP-VFD-FOR-ENGRAVING-MILL-7A-SINGLE-PHASE-DRIVE-VSD-1-5KW-DRIVE-INVERTER-/252240794914?hash=item3abab91522:g:-4gAAOSwHaBWjfyV

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Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 January 2016 06:14:52 andy pugh wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 01:40, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Which reminds me, trolling on ebay last night, I came across a 95
> > watt, 60,000 rpm 3 phase spindle with an R11 setup, new, for a
> > hundred dollar bill.  So I went looking for an inverter. 17 pages of
> > inverters later, there was not a single phase powered inverter in
> > any size below 2.2KW.
>
> This one is "only" 1.5kW and runs to 2500Hz.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5KW-2HP-VFD-FOR-ENGRAVING-MILL-7A-SINGLE-PHA
>SE-DRIVE-VSD-1-5KW-DRIVE-INVERTER-/252240794914?hash=item3abab91522:g:-
>4gAAOSwHaBWjfyV

But it says 0-400 hz.  And that motor IIRC only needs 120 volts. But when 
I went to see if it was still available, the price was $187 USD with $40 
USD shipping. It may have been another item number though.  Iceweasels 
bookmarks manager leaves a lot to be desired.

Another hit that included the 48mm diameter mounting bracket bracket and 
apparently the same inverter, was $380 USD and $100 USD shipping.  And 
says the motor is 36volts, 3 phase.

That nearly 500 USD is above my pay grade by about 2x.  So I guess I'll 
putter along at 2500 revs and 2 ipm for circuit boards when I need to 
make some. But my last 60 degree engraving tool, was sharp when I pulled 
its adapter out of the spindle to put in another .03125 mill for 
drilling holes, but PCB's gcode exporter drilled some holes too small, 
and 3 way too big, and missed 3.  So that strip of 6 was dust binned.

Re-running the exporter for a clean file after doing a lengthwise shrink 
of about 1/2", I added the missing spot pecks to it, then without 
rotating it, made it 4 up on the next etch. But the tool had become 
chipped just laying on the mills table, and wasn't cutting at all clean, 
so I stopped it, ran the head back up, put it in reverse at 2500, and 
gently held a badly worn 1200 grit diamond plate against it for about a 
minute, which seemed to rejuvenate it quite a bit, so I finished the 
etch, then fixed the drill file using your code, adding the missing 
holes again too, drilled that and found it wasn't quite big enough for 
the leads on the schottky diodes, so I raised the diameter of those 4 
holes by another 3 thou and re-ran it. Turned it over & hand drilled 
clearance to the unused copper on the top side of the board, cut it up 
on the tablesaw, and populated one of them last night.

But that motor, at only 48mm in diameter, could be hung on the side of 
the head casting rather nicely when needed.

I've also considered making one, using an o-ring belt drive with about a 
1/10 step up to an outboard countershaft, to mount on the spindle nose. 
I made pulleys for a case tumbler idea but its not been used much, can't 
get traction between the spinning rods and a plastic Folgers coffee can, 
and the lid leaks media abrasive, they don't fit tightly enough.  I 
should get a Thumbler but the vibrators are cheaper. So there's the big 
pulleys.

But in scanning for that belt driven spindle, made for a gantry 3020 
machine, I keep coming across this:



$209 USD, free shipping, rated running in the .005mm's.  24k revs. Too 
bad they don't price it out as a complete kit in the $300 range. But the 
only complete kit is $470 & shipping from China.

What does it take for the water pump, plumbing & whatever is used for a 
radiator on one of those things?

But no water pump, bracket or plumbing on this one.

Here is something interesting:

$100 USD with shipping from Russian Federation, and he has  the motor for 
$90.  That would give me 24k revs, just like the $209 kit with free 
shipping.  Makes the first link above tempting. If I can round up the 
water pump and plumbing bits & pieces.

Anyway, thats the news from Lake Wobegon (Weston), WV, USA

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[Ralph Stirling]

I have an LPKF pcb milling machine with a 62KRPM spindle, but
I rarely use it to make pcb's.  I would far rather wait ten days for
double-sided pth boards with soldermask and silkscreen from
OSHPark.com, which are $5/sq.in. for three boards, free shipping.  
If I need something bigger than a few square inches, that starts getting
a bit expensive, but most of the quicky boards I would engrave
are small anyway.  The OSHPark boards (or any other commercially
fabbed pcb) are so much more reliable and easy to solder than
home engraved ones, that the extra wait is well worth it.  I do find
the LPKF machine useful for making solder stencils and depanelizing
batches of boards we sometimes get from Advanced Circuits.

-- Ralph

From: Gene Heskett [ghesk...@wdtv.com]
Sent: Monday, January 18, 2016 8:07 AM
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

On Monday 18 January 2016 06:14:52 andy pugh wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 01:40, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > Which reminds me, trolling on ebay last night, I came across a 95
> > watt, 60,000 rpm 3 phase spindle with an R11 setup, new, for a
> > hundred dollar bill.  So I went looking for an inverter. 17 pages of
> > inverters later, there was not a single phase powered inverter in
> > any size below 2.2KW.
>
> This one is "only" 1.5kW and runs to 2500Hz.
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/1-5KW-2HP-VFD-FOR-ENGRAVING-MILL-7A-SINGLE-PHA
>SE-DRIVE-VSD-1-5KW-DRIVE-INVERTER-/252240794914?hash=item3abab91522:g:-
>4gAAOSwHaBWjfyV

But it says 0-400 hz.  And that motor IIRC only needs 120 volts. But when
I went to see if it was still available, the price was $187 USD with $40
USD shipping. It may have been another item number though.  Iceweasels
bookmarks manager leaves a lot to be desired.

Another hit that included the 48mm diameter mounting bracket bracket and
apparently the same inverter, was $380 USD and $100 USD shipping.  And
says the motor is 36volts, 3 phase.

That nearly 500 USD is above my pay grade by about 2x.  So I guess I'll
putter along at 2500 revs and 2 ipm for circuit boards when I need to
make some. But my last 60 degree engraving tool, was sharp when I pulled
its adapter out of the spindle to put in another .03125 mill for
drilling holes, but PCB's gcode exporter drilled some holes too small,
and 3 way too big, and missed 3.  So that strip of 6 was dust binned.

Re-running the exporter for a clean file after doing a lengthwise shrink
of about 1/2", I added the missing spot pecks to it, then without
rotating it, made it 4 up on the next etch. But the tool had become
chipped just laying on the mills table, and wasn't cutting at all clean,
so I stopped it, ran the head back up, put it in reverse at 2500, and
gently held a badly worn 1200 grit diamond plate against it for about a
minute, which seemed to rejuvenate it quite a bit, so I finished the
etch, then fixed the drill file using your code, adding the missing
holes again too, drilled that and found it wasn't quite big enough for
the leads on the schottky diodes, so I raised the diameter of those 4
holes by another 3 thou and re-ran it. Turned it over & hand drilled
clearance to the unused copper on the top side of the board, cut it up
on the tablesaw, and populated one of them last night.

But that motor, at only 48mm in diameter, could be hung on the side of
the head casting rather nicely when needed.

I've also considered making one, using an o-ring belt drive with about a
1/10 step up to an outboard countershaft, to mount on the spindle nose.
I made pulleys for a case tumbler idea but its not been used much, can't
get traction between the spinning rods and a plastic Folgers coffee can,
and the lid leaks media abrasive, they don't fit tightly enough.  I
should get a Thumbler but the vibrators are cheaper. So there's the big
pulleys.

But in scanning for that belt driven spindle, made for a gantry 3020
machine, I keep coming across this:



$209 USD, free shipping, rated running in the .005mm's.  24k revs. Too
bad they don't price it out as a complete kit in the $300 range. But the
only complete kit is $470 & shipping from China.

What does it take for the water pump, plumbing & whatever is used for a
radiator on one of those things?

But no water pump, bracket or plumbing on this one.

Here is something interesting:

$100 USD with shipping from Russian Federation, and he has  the motor for
$90.  That would give me 24k revs, just like the $209 kit with free
shipping.  Makes the first link above tempting. If I can round up the
water pump and plumbing bits & pieces.

Anyway, thats the news from Lake Wobegon 

Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[andy pugh]

On 18 January 2016 at 16:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252240794914
>
> But it says 0-400 hz.

No it doesn't, it says

"Range:0.1~2500.0Hz"


-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[andy pugh]

On 18 January 2016 at 16:35, Ralph Stirling
 wrote:
> I have an LPKF pcb milling machine with a 62KRPM spindle, but
> I rarely use it to make pcb's.  I would far rather wait ten days for
> double-sided pth boards with soldermask and silkscreen from
> OSHPark.com, which are $5/sq.in. for three boards, free shipping.

I use http://www.seeedstudio.com/service/index.php?r=pcb

That comes out at $2.50 per square inch for 10 boards (ie, $0.25 per
square inch)

I have been 100% happy with the results so far.
Example boards:
https://picasaweb.google.com/108164504656404380542/CNCUnsorted#5889107885914527378

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 January 2016 11:36:47 andy pugh wrote:

> On 18 January 2016 at 16:07, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> >> http://www.ebay.com/itm/252240794914
> >
> > But it says 0-400 hz.
>
> No it doesn't, it says
>
> "Range:0.1~2500.0Hz"

I'll look again, brb.  Humm, way down the page.  Yeah, I could 
(theoretically) go to 150,000 rpms if I could buy a suitable motor, but 
I don't believe that puppy has been invented yet. 

In any event, I bought it. But despite its showing a row of motor 
selections, I couldn't find one at that "store".  So I'll have to go 
back to trolling.

I did find an air cooled motor and a bracket and bought them too. But its 
80mm in diameter, so might be a bit difficult to mount anywhere near 
permanently. Getting it configured as a 2nd spindle might be "fun", but 
that bridge is not in sight yet.

Now, to go email Nick at psha.org.ru and see if he can be cajoled into 
assembling some camview-emc packages for wheezy.

I just came in from testing the charge-pump detector, and it appears it 
might just barely work in a 3.3 volt circuit, but works great on 
anything above 3.75V p-p input.  So I think I am in business for that 
function since all my I/O is 5 volts at the BoB screw terminal.

Thanks for the pointer on that Andy.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Question about closed loop CNC

[Dave Caroline]

Just needs the loop closing and a sensible driver I think. eg :-

http://www.galil.com/news/servotrends/closed-loop-stepper-motor-performance-gains?utm_medium=email_campaign=01-16%20ServoTrends_content=01-16%20ServoTrends+CID_99eb132dcec7ff54cbcbb34e1ca392e5_source=Campaign%20Monitor_term=Read%20More#overlay-context=news/servotrends/new-ethercat-io-controller/

Dave Caroline

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[Emc-users] Question about closed loop CNC

[Chris Albertson]

I've read that it is hard to use steppers for closed loop CNC.  If this is
still true could some one explain the theory.

I have a small mill with DRO scales that are good to about .001 inch and
I'd like to put them to use with my planned CNC conversion.   I understand
software.  I've worked in the field for 30 years and have experience with
Linux (and other OS) device drivers, embedded real time code and so on.
If the problem is simply that no one has bothered to write the code, I can
fix that.   But if there is something of a mechanical nature I'm not
thinking of maybe some one can point me at what I need to read up on.

At least I think I might be able too automatically measure backlash using
the DRO scale data.  But my goal is to go closed loop if I can

-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] G2/G3 is eating my lunch again

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 18 January 2016 11:35:09 Ralph Stirling wrote:

> I have an LPKF pcb milling machine with a 62KRPM spindle, but
> I rarely use it to make pcb's.  I would far rather wait ten days for
> double-sided pth boards with soldermask and silkscreen from
> OSHPark.com, which are $5/sq.in. for three boards, free shipping.
> If I need something bigger than a few square inches, that starts
> getting a bit expensive, but most of the quicky boards I would engrave
> are small anyway.  The OSHPark boards (or any other commercially
> fabbed pcb) are so much more reliable and easy to solder than home
> engraved ones, that the extra wait is well worth it.  I do find the
> LPKF machine useful for making solder stencils and depanelizing
> batches of boards we sometimes get from Advanced Circuits.
>
> -- Ralph

When I did finally find that belt driven spindle, it was on a small Sabre 
machine, with about a 150mm wide moving table for X, which could move 
(if I read the chinglish right) 200mm and 70mm vertically. Std screws, 
rated accuracy with anti-backlash nuts was .05mm, and the whole thing, 
ready to be driven by Mach, was under $800 USD from Taiwan, plus ship I 
suppose.  Looked like a very neat little table-topper one could shelve 
in between PCB jobs.  If I really had a bunch to make, it looked like it 
could do them at a decent pace, doing 10 grand with that spindles belt 
in high gear. Even that 10G's it ought to be able to march along at 7 or 
8 ipm.  The video did show a much different etching bit, I'd estimate as 
a 85 degree bit, something I have not seen on fleabay yet.

It was also throwing white glass for 2-3 inches, so IMNSHO, it was 
digging way too deep, several thou into the glass.  The idea is to 
remove the copper, not dig a ditch 10 mills deep in the glass.  Thats 
hell on carbide even. If I make a pallet to hold the board flat, I 
figure I am about right when the copper is cleared, but the glass isn't 
touched.  But that takes eagles pcb-gcode to do that as it can make 
multiple passes, spaced at 1 or 2 mills apart in order to get a gap that 
doesn't solder bridge by mistake.

If I was doing 50 boards a year, like making quadrature encoders for a 
G0704 mills spindle for O.P., or if I find there is a market for a ready 
made charge-pump detector like I'm making, I'd do it in a Texas minute. 
But making it is less of a problem than fitting it because there isn't a 
good, precisely located, zero runout, place to put it.  Mine works, and 
works well, but the disk mounting is a bit fragile. 

As for sending it out to OHPark, I have no clue if pcb's gerber output is 
as broken as its gcode output is.  I think we have gerber viewers, so 
maybe I ought to have it make the gerber's once just to see if the 
gerber is all there, because the gcode is NOT all there, thru holes 
missing and too often the wrong size. Or maybe there's some cruft in my 
board.pcb causing it. IDK.

So much for that idea, I made the .gbr's, but gerbv can't show them, 
unless I open as a layer. Then the bottom trace is good, but the hole 
pattern isn't sized correctly. 4 of them are too small.  But in .gbr, 
they are all there, so its in the g-code exporter that they go missing.

I see it can mirror, so there is a slight possibility I can use that for 
copper clearance on top of the board.  Food for thought... :)

But something else to learn I guess. If I've a mind to. But in the past, 
I mirrored what I needed to in geany, again because it was a 2 sided 
board and I was only drilling 35 thou deep, so when I turned the board 
over to drill the other side, my holes all met in the middle of the 
boards thickness, with no detectable offsets at the meeting point.  But, 
to do that on THIS mill, I'd have to get camview working. On the small 
mill, I was using a brass tube set in the corner of the pallet to locate 
0,0 XY, then using the co-ordinate system to subtract that tube's 
location from the patterns 0,0 position.  Camview would make that a 
bunch easier. and handle any rotation that may creep into turning over 
the board.  Must be time to see if I can fix that camera, and make a new 
mount for it as I knocked it off the small mill with a fixture bolt that 
was too high.  More food for thought. I have a bigger, better camera, 
but I'd need to disrobe it and see how small I could make it, and design 
a new mount that actually fits it inside the head casting which will 
protect it from such operator=me idiocy.  That casting has quite a bit 
of hollow space, with the major problem being one of seeing around the 
spindle brake I built rather than give Grizzly 90 bucks for theirs, 
which is just as big & fugly as mine.

Good thing I brought in the brass monkey last night, else he'd be 
emasculated this morning if not. Winter has (finally) arrived in WV, and 
my diabetic feet are weakly yelping about it.

Thanks Ralph.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo.