Re: [Emc-users] touch probe

[Chris Morley]

motion.feed-inhibit would be the one to use.

only (maybe) homing and synch moves are un fazed by it.

It can't be masked either.


Chris M




From: Jon Elson 
Sent: September 4, 2016 12:42 AM
To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)
Subject: [Emc-users] touch probe

Does anybody know if the touch probe gcode (G38) obeys
motion.feed-hold?  (I'm guessing it should, but wondered if
anybody knew?)

This Blum probe I got has IR communication, and sends a
single serial byte every 16 ms when there is no event, and
sends a byte immediately when there is a change of state of
the probe.  So, I was thinking I could have a watchdog timer
that causes a feed hold if the IR pickup fails to report for
50 ms or so.  That might prevent ugly crashes if things go
wrong.

Thanks for any comments,

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 03 September 2016 13:58:15 Chris Albertson wrote:

> I want to understand stepper motor controllers.   Yes I know I can
> just read the specs and buy one but I want to understand what's
> inside. Preferably someone has a link
>
> My use of stepper motors has been, I guess primitive.  I can write
> software to toggle bits on an output port and then I connect these
> logic level bits to MOSFETs that switch a power supply to the coils in
> the motor.  I can do full and half steps this way.
>
> But now I see something like the Geko driver that takes 40 volts
> input.  I know that if it simply switched that 40V into the coils it
> would burn out the motor in short order.  As the motor is typical
> rated for 7 volts DC or close to that.  OK I can understand that if it
> is switching an inductive load the voltage raise is slower and maybe
> not get past 7V before the coil is switched off.   But what if the
> motor is running slow?   So my final guess is that these kinds of
> drivers are supplying a constant current and applying whatever volts
> is required up to the supply voltage.
>
> Is it as simple as that? A constant current power supply and some
> MOSFET H-bridge switches?

Commercial stepper drivers feed the coils full voltage, while watching 
the current, which in most drivers is adjustable to match the motors 
rated current. When that current has been exceeded, the power fets are 
reconfigured to allow the voltage to be taken away, but the reconfigure 
usually shorts the coil, in this manner allowing the current to continue 
to flow but decaying at the t=lr of the resulting short.  When the 
current falls back below the desired amount by a few percent, the fets 
in the h-bridge are reset to feed full voltage to the coils, building up 
the current again.  This switching it back and forth rate is generally 
ultrasonic, 16 to maybe 30 kilohertz.  Your dog may be able to hear it, 
but humans may only feel it as a pressure sensation if its loud enough. 
But very rarely is it loud enough to "feel".

Because this switching, if not timed to a fraction of a microsecond, can 
do odd things to hexfets, the home brewed design is a bit difficult to 
do, I much prefer to buy a known good driver even if I am a C.E.T.

I use several of the now quite generic "2M542" driver to drive all my 
Nema 23's, as its about as bulletproof a driver as can be, with 4 in my 
toy mill, 2 more in the little monster lathe, 2 more running the table 
screws in my G0704 mill, one on a 4" rotary table, and my last "spare" 
soon to be used to move the X screw in an 11x36 Sheldon lathe, I've had 
zero losses in 7 years or so, and twice had one shut down because I 
hadn't wired the motor correctly.  They are VERY good at protecting 
themselves. $30 to $40 a copy on ebay.  Nema 34 motors generally will 
need 60 or more volts, and the DM860 driver handles that well up to 
nearly 8 amps into a motor.

I hope this helps.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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[Emc-users] touch probe

[Jon Elson]

Does anybody know if the touch probe gcode (G38) obeys 
motion.feed-hold?  (I'm guessing it should, but wondered if 
anybody knew?)

This Blum probe I got has IR communication, and sends a 
single serial byte every 16 ms when there is no event, and 
sends a byte immediately when there is a change of state of 
the probe.  So, I was thinking I could have a watchdog timer 
that causes a feed hold if the IR pickup fails to report for 
50 ms or so.  That might prevent ugly crashes if things go 
wrong.

Thanks for any comments,

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron

[Gregg Eshelman]

I sold a circa 1935 B No. 2 surface grinder that had sat outside for who 
knows how long, but the slideways on the table looked factory new with all the 
original scraping marks, despite the paint all peeling off and rust all over.
Lube is life to machine tools. :)

 
  From: Dave Caroline 
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
 Sent: Saturday, September 3, 2016 4:26 AM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron
   
Marcus often internal slides and even external if a good metal will
not have lost enough in rusting to make them unusable and any original
oil can keep most in reasonable condition for a number of years. When
you clean the surface rust with a scraper (not too sharp) and or wire
brush you can still see machining marks.

   
 
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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Danny Miller]

Stepper motors' drive is AC-like if moving, but DC when stopped. There 
is a common misconception that you target average current, but that's 
not correct.

There are two windings in bipolar steppers.  If you have a motor rated 
at 2 amps with 2 ohm DC winding,  that rating allows 2A, 8W total, 
because it can stop on a winding.  The motor is rated for 8W 
dissipation, presuming it is free-air with a reasonable ambient.  Also 
the construction guarantees you won't demagnetize the magnets or cause 
core saturation at 2A on a winding.

Alternately, same bipolar, it may stop between phases in a microstep 
situtation.  That's 45 deg, so with a 2A peak, a microstep driver 
delivers 1.414A^2 *2ohm * 2 windings =8W total spread between two 
windings.  It's spread out so the hottest winding is cooler because it's 
only doing 4W, but that's not where the rating comes from.  Still 2A per 
winding.

There is no case where a driver set for a 2A peak will put 2A on EACH 
winding. THAT is the mysterious, confusing part of the spec if you 
overthink it.  It says "2A/phase", 2 phases, doesn't that add up to 4 
amps?  Not really, that number is based on the assumption that you drive 
only one phase or a phase A=sin(angle)*2A + phase B=cos(angle)*2A.  
Industry std assumption.

There's ONE catch.  In the case of UNIPOLAR, you break each phase into 2 
windings.  With the same above motor tapped like that, each winding ould 
be 1ohm and still rated for 2A.  You could drive the two half-windings 
in series, making a 2ohm 2amp winding and that's the exact same motor 
the bipolar case above already is.  Or, unipolar is only pulling down 
one half-winding at a time (the only reason to do this is it's a simpler 
driver, and mostly irrelevant now because driver costs are quite low for 
bipolar drives).

In that unipolar case, you can still ONLY apply 2A/winding, even though 
you're using half-windings and only 1 of 4 windings is being used when 
it's on-pole.  Only 4W total motor heat, but only 1/(2^0.5) the torque 
is possible.  You might say "well the motor can handle 8W, so I'll give 
it 2.83 amps and get 100% of the bipolar torque again".  But this will 
exceed the winding's rating, even if it's only a half-winding.  This is 
why unipolar doesn't make much sense, a larger motor to meet a torque 
requirement is expensive, whereas even the bipolar driver is pretty cheap.

Danny

On 9/3/2016 3:02 PM, Kirk Wallace wrote:
> On 09/03/2016 11:32 AM, Andy Pugh wrote:
>>
>>> On 3 Sep 2016, at 21:12, Danny Miller 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>> l approximation of current targets whose PEAK value is equal to the
>>> motor current rating.
>> Are you sure? I don't have any information at all but would expect it
>> to be average current.
> My understanding is that one should check the motor and driver specs for
> voltage limit, and supply with the lower of the two voltage limits.
> Then start with a low driver current limit, let the motor come up to
> temp, test the temperature, then turn the current up and repeat until
> the motor runs at the desired temperature (usually barely touchable). I
> believe that the motor sitting at idle will produce the highest temp.
>
> In addition to the Jones link, this should also have some good
> information: http://www.geckodrive.com/support.html
>
>


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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Kirk Wallace]

On 09/03/2016 11:32 AM, Andy Pugh wrote:
>
>
>> On 3 Sep 2016, at 21:12, Danny Miller 
>> wrote:
>>
>> l approximation of current targets whose PEAK value is equal to the
>> motor current rating.
>
> Are you sure? I don't have any information at all but would expect it
> to be average current.

My understanding is that one should check the motor and driver specs for
voltage limit, and supply with the lower of the two voltage limits.
Then start with a low driver current limit, let the motor come up to 
temp, test the temperature, then turn the current up and repeat until 
the motor runs at the desired temperature (usually barely touchable). I 
believe that the motor sitting at idle will produce the highest temp.

In addition to the Jones link, this should also have some good 
information: http://www.geckodrive.com/support.html


-- 
Kirk Wallace
http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Kirk Wallace]

On 09/03/2016 10:58 AM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> I want to understand stepper motor controllers.

This is my goto document for steppers:
http://homepage.cs.uiowa.edu/~jones/step/

-- 
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http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/
http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/

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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Andy Pugh]

> On 3 Sep 2016, at 21:12, Danny Miller  wrote:
> 
> l approximation of current targets whose PEAK value 
> is equal to the motor current rating.

Are you sure? I don't have any information at all but would expect it to be 
average current. 
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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Andy Pugh]

> On 3 Sep 2016, at 20:58, Chris Albertson  wrote:
> 
> Is it as simple as that? A constant current power supply and some MOSFET
> H-bridge switches?

Yes, but probably no :-)

It's a closed-loop constant current supply, with current feedback. 
And I suspect that there are significant issues with accurately measuring 
current into an inductive system with electrical and mechanical resonances. 

Peter Wallace and Jon Elson sell drives of their own manufacture, they might be 
able to add more technical insight than any sane man needs :-)


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Re: [Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Danny Miller]

 From the user side, you provide 5v step/dir signals and need to pay 
attention to which active edge the driver uses, and know the microstep 
multiplier inside the drive.

Inside, it's a constant-current PWM.  If it's microstepping, it advances 
through a sinusoidal approximation of current targets whose PEAK value 
is equal to the motor current rating.

Steppers run on a constant current regardless of load.  However a 
stopped or unloaded stepper has minimal back EMF and draws little power 
(voltage * current).  Under heavy load, back EMF and the power 
increases, this is observable as greater power draw from the supply.  
Motor heat increases only a small amount with load.

Stepper drivers vary a LOT in effectiveness.  Short answer is 
AM882/DM542 DSP drives are "the best".   MX4660 is also a DSP but lacks 
the fine-tuning control interfaces of the other 2x. Geckdrive G540 was 
one of the first quality drives, still good, but not as great as the 
other ones here.

Danny


On 9/3/2016 12:58 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> I want to understand stepper motor controllers.   Yes I know I can just
> read the specs and buy one but I want to understand what's inside.
> Preferably someone has a link
>
> My use of stepper motors has been, I guess primitive.  I can write software
> to toggle bits on an output port and then I connect these logic level bits
> to MOSFETs that switch a power supply to the coils in the motor.  I can do
> full and half steps this way.
>
> But now I see something like the Geko driver that takes 40 volts input.  I
> know that if it simply switched that 40V into the coils it would burn out
> the motor in short order.  As the motor is typical rated for 7 volts DC or
> close to that.  OK I can understand that if it is switching an inductive
> load the voltage raise is slower and maybe not get past 7V before the coil
> is switched off.   But what if the motor is running slow?   So my final
> guess is that these kinds of drivers are supplying a constant current and
> applying whatever volts is required up to the supply voltage.
>
> Is it as simple as that? A constant current power supply and some MOSFET
> H-bridge switches?
>
>
>
>


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[Emc-users] How do stepper drivers work?

[Chris Albertson]

I want to understand stepper motor controllers.   Yes I know I can just
read the specs and buy one but I want to understand what's inside.
Preferably someone has a link

My use of stepper motors has been, I guess primitive.  I can write software
to toggle bits on an output port and then I connect these logic level bits
to MOSFETs that switch a power supply to the coils in the motor.  I can do
full and half steps this way.

But now I see something like the Geko driver that takes 40 volts input.  I
know that if it simply switched that 40V into the coils it would burn out
the motor in short order.  As the motor is typical rated for 7 volts DC or
close to that.  OK I can understand that if it is switching an inductive
load the voltage raise is slower and maybe not get past 7V before the coil
is switched off.   But what if the motor is running slow?   So my final
guess is that these kinds of drivers are supplying a constant current and
applying whatever volts is required up to the supply voltage.

Is it as simple as that? A constant current power supply and some MOSFET
H-bridge switches?




-- 

Chris Albertson
Redondo Beach, California
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Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron

[Andy Pugh]

> On 3 Sep 2016, at 13:26, Dave Caroline  wrote:
> 
> Marcus often internal slides and even external if a good metal will
> not have lost enough in rusting to make them unusable and any original
> oil can keep most in reasonable condition for a number of years.

Machine tools always look worse in photos too. My Holbrook looked a goner in 
the photos, but knowing the above I went for a look and it was fine. 
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Re: [Emc-users] Suitability question

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 03 September 2016 09:58:45 andy pugh wrote:

> On 3 September 2016 at 03:52, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > No common sense west of the big pond...
>
> I have observed that from here :-)
>
> If you are making a thread for your own use you do not need to stick
> to any standard.
> My drawbar is held together by an M14.25 x 0.9 thread. Because that is
> what gave me a 1:1:1 split between the two parts and the thread.
>
> Make an oversize nut that will fit over the shaft.

Which has to fully, and tightly, engage a 50 tpi thread cut in that 
12.7mm shaft beyond the 12m diameter quasi-smooth shaft where the drive 
pulley will sit.  With ATM a drive or press it on fit, my digital 
calipers say it is 12.04mm in diameter. So I'll compose a g76 line for 
the thread, but use a start point a couple mm's off the end of the 
shaft.  If it really chews it up, I'll make the nuts, all 3 of them, one 
with the tapered thread for the screw grabber compression, and then 
decide if I need to turn it on down to 10mm's.  Pulleys and belts yet to 
be ordered.

I bought a 2505 nut mount block which hasn't arrived yet, but need to 
hang the screw up with wires to determine how much of a spacer block I 
need under it to best fit both the tail end bracket to hold its floating 
bearing, and what I have to cobble up and make for the motor mount and 
drive belt, where the qcgb used to be.  The screw is long enough that 
its thrust bearing could be on the inside face of a 1/2" thick alu 
plate, but I suspect I'll have to make spacers to hold the plate out 
from the bed casting, using longer bolts into those holes, in order to 
do that.  That imply's a spacer block under the nut mount to couple the 
nut to the apron or possibly to the now unused apron retainer bolts 
since my new apron is fixed to the front of the saddle with 4 grade 8 
1/4" bolts on each side of the x drive bearing. This has to leave room 
under it for the motor to pass by the screw.  With room for the motor 
mount slider to move and tension the backlash out of the timing belt 
drive. By the time I find the right bellows for the screws swarf 
protection, its likely to get crowded anyway.  This also will get easier 
once the x drive is finished because then I'll know where the z screw 
has to be hung for max bellows clearance all around.  Bellows 
compression room on the right for full travel says the nut will be 
mounted on the left half of the new apron plate. Tiddly stuff, best done 
in the proper order, which means get the saddle back on it, with fresh 
wipers, making a new full length front gib plate, lapped flat on the 
contact face and shimming if needed.  As is turning the rear one over, 
lapping it flat and adjusting its shims. Time killers...

I found, when I built the new Z drive for the toy mill, that I needed 30 
or 40 lbs of tension on that belt else the belt was an easily measured 
source of backlash. I worried about the motors bearing life, but that 
was 6 or 7 years of heavy use since, no complaints yet.  That kevlar 
corded belt has not stretched that I can detect.

But get some coffee on, and see if my lady needs anything.  I'm sitting 
here waiting for the morning pills to kick in, my back was killing me 
when I tried to roll out of bed 45 minutes ago.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Upset old fart

[rayj]

Thanks for the info!  Guess I should have done more research before I 
put the question out.


Thanks again.

Raymond Julian
Kettle River, MN

The things we admire in men, kindness and generosity, openness, honesty, 
understanding and feeling are the concomitants of failure in our system. 
And those traits we detest, sharpness, greed, acquisitiveness, meanness, 
egotism and self-interest are the traits of success. And while men 
admire the quality of the first they love the produce of the second. 
-John Steinbeck, novelist, Nobel laureate (1902-1968)

On 09/03/2016 06:50 AM, Ron Ginger wrote:
> The Logan company is still in business, and Scott Logan is often seen on
> some of the hobby metalworking sites. He does have more support for the
> lathes but might be able to help on a shaper.
>
> http://www.loganact.com/
>
> ron ginger
>
>
>> rayj 
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users]
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>>  
>> Message-ID: 
>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>>
>> On the topic of resources for old machines, does anyone have any good
>> resources for Logan tools.  I have a little Logan shaper I need a part
>> for.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>>
>> TIA.
>>
>> Raymond Julian
>> Kettle River, MN
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Suitability question

[andy pugh]

On 3 September 2016 at 03:52, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> No common sense west of the big pond...

I have observed that from here :-)

If you are making a thread for your own use you do not need to stick
to any standard.
My drawbar is held together by an M14.25 x 0.9 thread. Because that is
what gave me a 1:1:1 split between the two parts and the thread.

Make an oversize nut that will fit over the shaft.


-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916

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Re: [Emc-users] Upset old fart

[Ron Ginger]

The Logan company is still in business, and Scott Logan is often seen on 
some of the hobby metalworking sites. He does have more support for the 
lathes but might be able to help on a shaper.

http://www.loganact.com/

ron ginger


> rayj 
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users]
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
>   
> Message-ID: 
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed
>
> On the topic of resources for old machines, does anyone have any good
> resources for Logan tools.  I have a little Logan shaper I need a part
> for.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.
>
> TIA.
>
> Raymond Julian
> Kettle River, MN


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Re: [Emc-users] What does "CNC" really mean?

[Gene Heskett]

On Saturday 03 September 2016 06:31:21 Gregg Eshelman wrote:

> That joke is 16 years old. :P
>
>
Precisely Gregg. ;-)

>   From: Gene Heskett 
>  To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>  Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 3:57 PM
>  Subject: Re: [Emc-users] What does "CNC" really mean?
>
> On Friday 02 September 2016 13:42:09 Dave Cole wrote:
> > And what about hanging chads??  ;-)
>
> Chuckle, there is a law, if someone mentions chad, somebody else has
> to ask if its hanging. :)
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
>
>
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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] What does "CNC" really mean?

[Gregg Eshelman]

That joke is 16 years old. :P

 
  From: Gene Heskett 
 To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net 
 Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 3:57 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] What does "CNC" really mean?
   
On Friday 02 September 2016 13:42:09 Dave Cole wrote:

> And what about hanging chads??  ;-)
>
Chuckle, there is a law, if someone mentions chad, somebody else has to 
ask if its hanging. :)

Cheers, Gene Heskett
   
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron

[Dave Caroline]

Marcus often internal slides and even external if a good metal will
not have lost enough in rusting to make them unusable and any original
oil can keep most in reasonable condition for a number of years. When
you clean the surface rust with a scraper (not too sharp) and or wire
brush you can still see machining marks.

My southbend came rather black from a paint shop but any rust I had to
clean off is small fry compared to the wear on the slide from its
production days.
I have cleaned and painted a few parts over the years, still scruffy though
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=southbend+pd

in my hobbing machine, was a bit of a fight to free and take apart
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=barber+colman+pd
I had some water into the slide, mostly ok, just needed a clean with a
scraper and fine (1200 grit) wet and dry to clean up. sorry no picture
of that area after cleaning.

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron

[Marcus Bowman]

Impressive. And good looking too.
What about the parts that are supposed to be close sliding fits, like the 
tailstock barrel etc?

Marcus

On 3 Sep 2016, at 08:51, Dave Caroline wrote:

> Do not let "stored outside" frighten you
> in my garden for many years to restored and running
> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=filing+new
> about a week of restoration
> and another that was usable after a day or two
> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=harrison+pd
> I got that rusty anyway then stored the base outdoors
> 
> No before pictures but this was found outdoors in a puddle at a scrapyard
> http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=dumore
> after cleaning de rusting and tested, not been painted.
> 
> Dave Caroline
> 
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[Emc-users] Logan parts Re: Upset old fart

[Gregg Eshelman]

Ask Scott Logan at lathe.com He has new old stock and new parts for Logan 
lathes, dunno about their shapers.

 
  From: rayj 
 To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)  
 Sent: Friday, September 2, 2016 6:54 PM
 Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Upset old fart
   
On the topic of resources for old machines, does anyone have any good 
resources for Logan tools.  I have a little Logan shaper I need a part 
for.  Any suggestions would be appreciated.

   
 
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Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron

[Dave Caroline]

Do not let "stored outside" frighten you
in my garden for many years to restored and running
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=filing+new
about a week of restoration
and another that was usable after a day or two
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=harrison+pd
I got that rusty anyway then stored the base outdoors

No before pictures but this was found outdoors in a puddle at a scrapyard
http://www.collection.archivist.info/searchv13.php?searchstr=dumore
after cleaning de rusting and tested, not been painted.

Dave Caroline

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Re: [Emc-users] Nice old iron

[Marcus Bowman]

I must say I do hate it when machinery is "stored outside". It shows a distinct 
lack of respect -- and perhaps more realistically a lack of indoor space. The 
poor fellow needs a bigger workshop.

Marcus


On 3 Sep 2016, at 02:36, Jon Elson wrote:

> On 09/02/2016 03:50 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>> http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Various-machines-untested-/282157105171?hash=item41b1dfc013:g:md0AAOSwRGlXqFQ2
>> 
>> You would need a big truck for all 11 machines.
>> 
>> There is something about the Ikega I like, but my garage is full. No,
>> really, it is.
>> 
> Ugh, quite a rusty bunch of machines.
> 
> Jon
> 
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