Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Jon Elson]

On 05/11/2017 12:28 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> - Original Message -
>> From: "Jon Elson" <el...@pico-systems.com>
>> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
>> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:58:08 PM
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer
>>
>> On 05/10/2017 10:22 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
>>> Latency is fine with Lucid(RTAI). With Wheezy(RTAI) the
>>> latency test will not even open, it just hangs with
>>> nothing coming up in the terminal window, but the pc
>>> itself still keeps going (can open other programs).
>> OK, there's the problem.  Something is really wrong in the
>> RT system, or maybe just the CPU is being slowed down
>> drastically for some reason.  The drivers for certain
>> graphics cards can do bad things, but that usually requires
>> a graphical display to be running.
>>
>> Jon
>>
> It is only running with on board video (no video cards), there is a display 
> attached.
>
> If I boot from the Linuxcnc live Wheezy ISO (using a USB thumb drive).  It 
> eventually boots and opens a desktop.  If I open a terminal window and type 
> Linuxcnc.  The config picker opens, I select something, then nothing else 
> seems to happen.  The computer is not locked up, I can open and do other 
> things, but no word of anything from Linuxcnc, and the terminal window is 
> blank.  (going from memory here, as the machine is running production work 
> now.) The same thing happens with the latency test.
>
> I know there is something very wrong. But I don't know were to even look to 
> find out what.
>
This sounds like a real time overload, using up 100% of the 
CPU time.  You could try slowing the RT threads down to 
something like 1/10th the rate (multiply bast thread and 
servo thread period X 10) and see if it works.  But, then, 
it would be best to find out what the real problem is.  
First, do
  more /proc/cpuinfo

and see what the bogomips reading is, and if it seems 
correct for the processor and clock speed.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 12:22 PM, Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single core
> computer?
>
> I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some time on
> an older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install.
> It is an older P4 2.8gHz cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works
> reasonably well with Lucid. This PC is a little bit special in that it has
> some ISA slots on the motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to
> interface with the machine.
>
> I have tried several times to test or install the newer Linuxcnc/Wheezy
> iso. But it boots and runs painfully slow, and neither the latency tests or
> Linuxcnc will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc from the command line tells me
> nothing.
>
> Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version?
>

It's gotta be video drivers... can you run it in single user mode? Can you
switch to teh text coinsole (Ctrl-Alt-F1 (or 2 or 3)).
Do you see the graphical desktop at all?
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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Todd Zuercher]

- Original Message -
> From: "Jon Elson" <el...@pico-systems.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Thursday, May 11, 2017 12:58:08 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer
> 
> On 05/10/2017 10:22 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> > Latency is fine with Lucid(RTAI). With Wheezy(RTAI) the
> > latency test will not even open, it just hangs with
> > nothing coming up in the terminal window, but the pc
> > itself still keeps going (can open other programs).
> OK, there's the problem.  Something is really wrong in the
> RT system, or maybe just the CPU is being slowed down
> drastically for some reason.  The drivers for certain
> graphics cards can do bad things, but that usually requires
> a graphical display to be running.
> 
> Jon
> 

It is only running with on board video (no video cards), there is a display 
attached.

If I boot from the Linuxcnc live Wheezy ISO (using a USB thumb drive).  It 
eventually boots and opens a desktop.  If I open a terminal window and type 
Linuxcnc.  The config picker opens, I select something, then nothing else seems 
to happen.  The computer is not locked up, I can open and do other things, but 
no word of anything from Linuxcnc, and the terminal window is blank.  (going 
from memory here, as the machine is running production work now.) The same 
thing happens with the latency test.

I know there is something very wrong. But I don't know were to even look to 
find out what.

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Jon Elson]

On 05/10/2017 10:22 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> Latency is fine with Lucid(RTAI). With Wheezy(RTAI) the 
> latency test will not even open, it just hangs with 
> nothing coming up in the terminal window, but the pc 
> itself still keeps going (can open other programs).
OK, there's the problem.  Something is really wrong in the 
RT system, or maybe just the CPU is being slowed down 
drastically for some reason.  The drivers for certain 
graphics cards can do bad things, but that usually requires 
a graphical display to be running.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Todd Zuercher]

- Original Message -
> From: "Jon Elson" <el...@pico-systems.com>
> To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" <emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net>
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 10:17:41 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer
> 
> On 05/10/2017 04:58 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
> >
> > That is what I am afraid of.  But I had not seen any definitive
> > "Yes we've killed it" answer on the subject.  A quick google seems
> > to imply that Debian still supports ISA, but...
> >
> >
> Does that machine have hyperthreading?  If so, turn it off,
> it cuts the speed of real CPU to half.
> You could also run the latency test.  That might reveal a
> problem with RTAI.  Or, are you using preempt-RT?
> If either of these, try the other RT system, and see if it
> does better.
> 
> Anyway, I don't think the OS would care about the ISA.
> LinuxCNC doesn't use Linux drivers, the hal drivers go
> straight to the hardware.
> 
> Jon
> 

If it has hyper-threading it has been turned off for the last 5 or 6 years, 
when Linuxcnc(emc2) was originally installed on it.

Latency is fine with Lucid(RTAI).  With Wheezy(RTAI) the latency test will not 
even open, it just hangs with nothing coming up in the terminal window, but the 
pc itself still keeps going (can open other programs).

Are there any particular logs I should be looking at for pertinent error info?

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Jon Elson]

On 05/10/2017 04:58 PM, Todd Zuercher wrote:
>
> That is what I am afraid of.  But I had not seen any definitive "Yes we've 
> killed it" answer on the subject.  A quick google seems to imply that Debian 
> still supports ISA, but...
>
>
Does that machine have hyperthreading?  If so, turn it off, 
it cuts the speed of real CPU to half.
You could also run the latency test.  That might reveal a 
problem with RTAI.  Or, are you using preempt-RT?
If either of these, try the other RT system, and see if it 
does better.

Anyway, I don't think the OS would care about the ISA.  
LinuxCNC doesn't use Linux drivers, the hal drivers go 
straight to the hardware.

Jon

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Chris Albertson]

It's not a big deal if something is not supported by default.   You compile
the driver then "insmod" it in later.  Or just rebuild the kernel. If
it was once supported hardware you can keep it working.

Many times you need to use ISA cards because it is come custom hardware or
one off interface.   I've got a few of those that fortunately I don't need
to use.   But it taught me to NEVER build only thing on a card that goes
inside a PC.  Build instead using a standard interface to a PC, like USB
even better a network connection.

On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 2:58 PM, Todd Zuercher <zuerc...@embarqmail.com>
wrote:

> - Original Message -
> > From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> > To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> > Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:38:05 PM
> > Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer
> >
> > On Wednesday 10 May 2017 12:22:13 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> >
> > > Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single
> > > core
> > > computer?
> > >
> > > I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some
> > > time
> > > on an older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install. It is an older P4 2.8gHz
> > > cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works reasonably well with
> > > Lucid.
> > > This PC is a little bit special in that it has some ISA slots on
> > > the
> > > motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to interface with
> > > the
> > > machine.
> > >
> > > I have tried several times to test or install the newer
> > > Linuxcnc/Wheezy iso. But it boots and runs painfully slow, and
> > > neither
> > > the latency tests or Linuxcnc will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc
> > > from
> > > the command line tells me nothing.
> > >
> > > Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version?
> >
> > My first reaction is that the newer kernels have no ISA support
> > without
> > building your own and configuring that option back on, if it still
> > exists in the latest kernel src linux needs to run well.
> >
> > Realistically, ISA has been dead and had a few words said over it for
> > at
> > least 15 years. PCI is around 10-30x faster as the 7 MHz clocking was
> > replaced with 33 MHz clocking, and offered bus widths up to 64 bits,
> > whereas ISA was stuck with a 16 bit data bus.
> >
> > Even that is considered slow these days. I'd not recommend a
> > raspberry pi
> > 3b at this stage of the update your hardware game, even if mine is
> > running linuxcnc again.  I'll have another post about that, but
> > probably
> > after I go round up some dinner for us, I have a theory I'd like to
> > expound on a wee bit.
> >
> > Film (term used very loosely) at 11.
> >
> > Cheers, Gene Heskett
> > --
>
> That is what I am afraid of.  But I had not seen any definitive "Yes we've
> killed it" answer on the subject.  A quick google seems to imply that
> Debian still supports ISA, but...
>
> It is old legacy hardware, but I was hoping not to have to rip out and
> rewire the machine to support a newer interface card.
>
> As to why not to soldier on with 10.04, I believe it has been decreed by
> the powers that be, if you want to go beyond Linuxcnc 2.7, thou shalt
> forsake Lucid.
>
> 
> --
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> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



-- 

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Todd Zuercher]

- Original Message -
> From: "Gene Heskett" <ghesk...@shentel.net>
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Sent: Wednesday, May 10, 2017 5:38:05 PM
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer
> 
> On Wednesday 10 May 2017 12:22:13 Todd Zuercher wrote:
> 
> > Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single
> > core
> > computer?
> >
> > I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some
> > time
> > on an older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install. It is an older P4 2.8gHz
> > cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works reasonably well with
> > Lucid.
> > This PC is a little bit special in that it has some ISA slots on
> > the
> > motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to interface with
> > the
> > machine.
> >
> > I have tried several times to test or install the newer
> > Linuxcnc/Wheezy iso. But it boots and runs painfully slow, and
> > neither
> > the latency tests or Linuxcnc will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc
> > from
> > the command line tells me nothing.
> >
> > Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version?
> 
> My first reaction is that the newer kernels have no ISA support
> without
> building your own and configuring that option back on, if it still
> exists in the latest kernel src linux needs to run well.
> 
> Realistically, ISA has been dead and had a few words said over it for
> at
> least 15 years. PCI is around 10-30x faster as the 7 MHz clocking was
> replaced with 33 MHz clocking, and offered bus widths up to 64 bits,
> whereas ISA was stuck with a 16 bit data bus.
> 
> Even that is considered slow these days. I'd not recommend a
> raspberry pi
> 3b at this stage of the update your hardware game, even if mine is
> running linuxcnc again.  I'll have another post about that, but
> probably
> after I go round up some dinner for us, I have a theory I'd like to
> expound on a wee bit.
> 
> Film (term used very loosely) at 11.
> 
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --

That is what I am afraid of.  But I had not seen any definitive "Yes we've 
killed it" answer on the subject.  A quick google seems to imply that Debian 
still supports ISA, but...

It is old legacy hardware, but I was hoping not to have to rip out and rewire 
the machine to support a newer interface card.

As to why not to soldier on with 10.04, I believe it has been decreed by the 
powers that be, if you want to go beyond Linuxcnc 2.7, thou shalt forsake Lucid.

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Gene Heskett]

On Wednesday 10 May 2017 12:22:13 Todd Zuercher wrote:

> Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single core
> computer?
>
> I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some time
> on an older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install. It is an older P4 2.8gHz
> cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works reasonably well with Lucid.
> This PC is a little bit special in that it has some ISA slots on the
> motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to interface with the
> machine.
>
> I have tried several times to test or install the newer
> Linuxcnc/Wheezy iso. But it boots and runs painfully slow, and neither
> the latency tests or Linuxcnc will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc from
> the command line tells me nothing.
>
> Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version?

My first reaction is that the newer kernels have no ISA support without 
building your own and configuring that option back on, if it still 
exists in the latest kernel src linux needs to run well.

Realistically, ISA has been dead and had a few words said over it for at 
least 15 years. PCI is around 10-30x faster as the 7 MHz clocking was 
replaced with 33 MHz clocking, and offered bus widths up to 64 bits, 
whereas ISA was stuck with a 16 bit data bus.

Even that is considered slow these days. I'd not recommend a raspberry pi 
3b at this stage of the update your hardware game, even if mine is 
running linuxcnc again.  I'll have another post about that, but probably 
after I go round up some dinner for us, I have a theory I'd like to 
expound on a wee bit.

Film (term used very loosely) at 11.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[giorgio foga]

and why not continue to use ubuntu 10.04?


 I suspect that your ram is a bit slow ... try to buy new one more fast ex. 
1333Mhz type and 2Gb 


regards

giorgio



Da: Todd Zuercher <zuerc...@embarqmail.com>
Inviato: mercoledì 10 maggio 2017 18.22
A: Linuxcnc-Users
Oggetto: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single core computer?

I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some time on an 
older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install.
It is an older P4 2.8gHz cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works reasonably 
well with Lucid. This PC is a little bit special in that it has some ISA slots 
on the motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to interface with the 
machine.

I have tried several times to test or install the newer Linuxcnc/Wheezy iso. 
But it boots and runs painfully slow, and neither the latency tests or Linuxcnc 
will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc from the command line tells me nothing.

Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version?

--



Todd Zuercher
mailto:zuerc...@embarqmail.com


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Re: [Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Chris Albertson]

It's hard to know from what you've told us.   But one thing to look at is
to start the machine up.  do NOT start up X11.  Working at the command
promo on the monitor run the command "top" and you weill see cpu. memory
and swap file usage that is updated about eery second.

If the computer comes up in any graphic mode you need to disable that (look
in /etc/rc.d)



On Wed, May 10, 2017 at 9:22 AM, Todd Zuercher 
wrote:

> Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single core
> computer?
>
> I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some time on
> an older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install.
> It is an older P4 2.8gHz cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works
> reasonably well with Lucid. This PC is a little bit special in that it has
> some ISA slots on the motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to
> interface with the machine.
>
> I have tried several times to test or install the newer Linuxcnc/Wheezy
> iso. But it boots and runs painfully slow, and neither the latency tests or
> Linuxcnc will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc from the command line tells me
> nothing.
>
> Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version?
>
> --
>
> 
>
> Todd Zuercher
> mailto:zuerc...@embarqmail.com
>
> 
> 
> --
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[Emc-users] Installing On Older Computer

[Todd Zuercher]

Is there a trick to installing Linuxcnc/Wheezy on an older single core 
computer? 

I have a machine that has been happily running Linuxcnc for some time on an 
older Linuxcnc Ubuntu 10,04 install. 
It is an older P4 2.8gHz cpu (single core) with 1G memory and works reasonably 
well with Lucid. This PC is a little bit special in that it has some ISA slots 
on the motherboard and 1 ISA card is used by Linuxcnc to interface with the 
machine. 

I have tried several times to test or install the newer Linuxcnc/Wheezy iso. 
But it boots and runs painfully slow, and neither the latency tests or Linuxcnc 
will open. Trying to start Linuxcnc from the command line tells me nothing. 

Any ideas why this machine refuses to work with the newer version? 

-- 

 

Todd Zuercher 
mailto:zuerc...@embarqmail.com 

 
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