Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-16 Thread Chris Albertson 
Apple's Time Machine and Linux can interact but it involves using
networking sophisticated ways, iSCSI and SAN and all that...  I mentioned
Apple and TM only because it showed that incremental backs with space
constraints could be made easy to understand for casual computer users.

The idea seems to have caught on.   There are many backup systems that do
what TM does and as you found one that even tries to re-create the user
interface.

One simple way to use TM with Linux is to keep your files on the Mac but
export them via NFS to Linux.   This way the host Max OS system does the
backup.   Setting this up is not hard Mac OS is exactly like Linux is the
way NFS is configured, same files in /etc.



On Wed, Jan 16, 2019 at 2:39 AM andy pugh  wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> > But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only the
> > changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish this
> > instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.
>
> Well, there was a mention of the Apple / OSX system earlier, though
> that is no real help for a linux User.
>
> Apple "Time machine" is pretty slick though, direct from the file
> manager interface you can scroll andy document, folder or drive
> backwards in time to any point you choose.
>
> https://youtu.be/ZLhvEfiOADk?t=97
>
> Google suggests "Cronopete" as a Linux alternative, but I know
> _nothing_ about it.
>
> --
> atp
> "A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
> designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
> lunatics."
> — George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916
>
>
> ___
> Emc-users mailing list
> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-16 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 16 January 2019 05:36:33 andy pugh wrote:

> On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:43, Gene Heskett  
wrote:
> > But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only
> > the changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish
> > this instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.
>
> Well, there was a mention of the Apple / OSX system earlier, though
> that is no real help for a linux User.
>
> Apple "Time machine" is pretty slick though, direct from the file
> manager interface you can scroll andy document, folder or drive
> backwards in time to any point you choose.
>
> https://youtu.be/ZLhvEfiOADk?t=97
>
> Google suggests "Cronopete" as a Linux alternative, but I know
> _nothing_ about it.

I found some stuff that could doi it, turned off by default in geany, so 
now I have time stamped full backups of everything I edit with it.


Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-16 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Wednesday 16 January 2019 04:46:14 Chris Albertson wrote:

> The words "level 0", and "level 1" and so on make me think your
> software must be based in the UNIX "dump" utility.  And dump is about
> 20 years old now.

Nope, using the latest tar.

> Typically what people did back then was but scripts in the UNIX contab
> that ran dump every night.  We used carting tapes back then so it made
> sense to have a weekly "level 0" tape and a nightly "level 1".

What does eclipse do?
>
> Many people use rsync in a crontab scrip too.

Thats not what rsync is designed for. Using it for this is scary.

> There are MANY GUI point and click backup systems that actually are
> just graphical front ends for either dump or rsync and cron.
>
> Today Apple's Time Machine (TM) is the best there is but it only runs
> on Mac OS.   It uses a really smart trick.  Callbacks can be
> registered www the the file system so TM can be told of every change
> and does not have to waste time scanning for changes then every hour
> it write those changes to a disk which is either local or on a server.
>   After Apple showed how to make this REALLY easy to use, lots of
> people took that idea and tried to make something like Time Machine. 
> Even MS Window has something like this now.
>
> You wanted a list with links.  Someone already did this
> https://alternativeto.net/software/time-machine/?platform=linux
>
> I have used a few of the ones on the above list.  The last one was
> Deja Dup because it was simple to set up.  But of last I've take all
> the important files off the Linux machines and moved them to a
> Synology NAS server.  Now all my development files are NFS mounted
> from the Synology so the files are the SAME on every computer.  then I
> useSynology's "hyper backup" to make a local and a cloud based
> versioned backup.   Actually Synolgy is Linus but Hyper Backup is not
> open source.
>
> What use depends on your needs. Do you have a files server?  Are there
> Windows and Macs in the mix?   And importantly, how much data do you
> have.

I'd say 100 megs of space, to be served by a directory amanda would 
ignore on the 2T drive it uses for nightly's would be a great plenty for 
working on a machine configuration stuffs. Thats what this align thingy 
basically is. And in this case, I am inclined to think diff might be the 
tool. Basically do a full when deciding that its stable enough to be 
used for further testing, an anchorpoint, then anytime a change write is 
done, generate a new diff.
>
> > I'm forced to comment here, because while I am a long term (about 20
> > years now) user of amanda, so I am quite familiar with its concept
> > of doing a level 0 within the timeframe of runspercycle, usually
> > stated in days, with a chefs choice of backup levels out to 4 or 5
> > used in between fulls, with an eye toward adjusting the schedule to
> > always use the same amount of storage on the media during an
> > individual run.
> >
> >
> > But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only
> > the changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish
> > this instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.
> > Does linux actually have such a beast? Or is it generally a
> > component of the development environment used.
> >
> > IOW, names please. Your own favorite poisons.
> >
> > What I'd expect to see at the base is inotifywait session's covering
> > the directories involved with your project, that would immediately
> > return the name of the file just written, which when that name is
> > returned to the parent caller, which in turn causes the parent to
> > make a one higher level backup of that file. Probably ought to have
> > a button to make a new level 0 at the end of the days work if its
> > working so far but incomplete.  Something along those lines. But I
> > don't see a utility like that in the repo's.

I've installed backintime but clueless about whats next. Since this box 
has spinning rust, tons of it on a 1T drive, I've made a backup dir 
in /home/gene, and will see if I can configure it to backup only 2 
directories, the home configdir for this new machine, and the nc_files 
and deeper. Or, since the gui shows progile selections, it looks as if 
that could be 2 separate backups. Then see if inotifywait can be used as 
a trigger.

Looks like fun & surprises, help, since theres none in the manpage, in 
configuring this toy appreciated.

Thanks.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 



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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-16 Thread andy pugh 
On Tue, 15 Jan 2019 at 23:43, Gene Heskett  wrote:

> But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only the
> changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish this
> instant incremental backup while one is working on a project.

Well, there was a mention of the Apple / OSX system earlier, though
that is no real help for a linux User.

Apple "Time machine" is pretty slick though, direct from the file
manager interface you can scroll andy document, folder or drive
backwards in time to any point you choose.

https://youtu.be/ZLhvEfiOADk?t=97

Google suggests "Cronopete" as a Linux alternative, but I know
_nothing_ about it.

-- 
atp
"A motorcycle is a bicycle with a pandemonium attachment and is
designed for the especial use of mechanical geniuses, daredevils and
lunatics."
— George Fitch, Atlanta Constitution Newspaper, 1916


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-16 Thread Chris Albertson 
The words "level 0", and "level 1" and so on make me think your software
must be based in the UNIX "dump" utility.  And dump is about 20 years old
now.
Typically what people did back then was but scripts in the UNIX contab that
ran dump every night.  We used carting tapes back then so it made sense to
have a weekly "level 0" tape and a nightly "level 1".

Many people use rsync in a crontab scrip too.

There are MANY GUI point and click backup systems that actually are just
graphical front ends for either dump or rsync and cron.

Today Apple's Time Machine (TM) is the best there is but it only runs on
Mac OS.   It uses a really smart trick.  Callbacks can be registered www
the the file system so TM can be told of every change and does not have to
waste time scanning for changes then every hour it write those changes to a
disk which is either local or on a server.   After Apple showed how to make
this REALLY easy to use, lots of people took that idea and tried to make
something like Time Machine.  Even MS Window has something like this now.

You wanted a list with links.  Someone already did this
https://alternativeto.net/software/time-machine/?platform=linux

I have used a few of the ones on the above list.  The last one was Deja Dup
because it was simple to set up.  But of last I've take all the important
files off the Linux machines and moved them to a Synology NAS server.  Now
all my development files are NFS mounted from the Synology so the files are
the SAME on every computer.  then I useSynology's "hyper backup" to make a
local and a cloud based versioned backup.   Actually Synolgy is Linus but
Hyper Backup is not open source.

What use depends on your needs. Do you have a files server?  Are there
Windows and Macs in the mix?   And importantly, how much data do you have.






> I'm forced to comment here, because while I am a long term (about 20
> years now) user of amanda, so I am quite familiar with its concept of
> doing a level 0 within the timeframe of runspercycle, usually stated in
> days, with a chefs choice of backup levels out to 4 or 5 used in between
> fulls, with an eye toward adjusting the schedule to always use the same
> amount of storage on the media during an individual run.
>
>
> But no one has mentioned the name of something that will backup only the
> changes, that can be started in the background to accomplish this
> instant incremental backup while one is working on a project. Does linux
> actually have such a beast? Or is it generally a component of the
> development environment used.
>
> IOW, names please. Your own favorite poisons.
>
> What I'd expect to see at the base is inotifywait session's covering the
> directories involved with your project, that would immediately return
> the name of the file just written, which when that name is returned to
> the parent caller, which in turn causes the parent to make a one higher
> level backup of that file. Probably ought to have a button to make a new
> level 0 at the end of the days work if its working so far but
> incomplete.  Something along those lines. But I don't see a utility like
> that in the repo's.
>
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
> "There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
>  soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
> -Ed Howdershelt (Author)
> Genes Web page 
>
>
>
> ___
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> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>


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Redondo Beach, California

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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-15 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Tuesday 15 January 2019 15:06:41 Chris Albertson wrote:

> DOn't worry about the amount of data from hourly backups.   If nothing
> is changed on the system then there is no data written to the backup
> device. Only data that has changed relative to the last backup
> interval is written. In an office files server this could be quite a
> lot of data 9 to5but zero change at night.  On a tiny system mostly
> nothing changes.
>
> Also it does not matter how long the system has been running
> continuously, what matters is how fast the data changes.Most all
> backup system will delete older version if the backup disk is full so
> the backup remains always the size of the disk.  So for example as the
> disk fills with hourly copies of some log file the system finds the
> oldest logs and keeps only daily snapshots, then as the disk files it
> keeps only weekly then monthly and yearly copies.So after this
> runs a while you find you have hourly resolution only back to a point
> and then it goes to weekly or monthly. The details depend on the size
> of the backup disk.   But almost always the system can be configured
> to only a specified amount of space.As a rule of thumb your backup
> disk is 2X the size of the data tube backup up.   This works because
> most files never change.
>
> This is the system Apple uses on Mac OS.  Macs run BSD UNIX and there
> are some Linux/Unix copies of Apple's system that you can download and
> install. All of them do a good job of managing a fixed amount of
> backup space.
>
> It is hard to say what is best.  Perhaps you have a half dozen Linux
> systems and some Windows PC notebooks and you want to centralize
> backup to one server?  The server then has to know how to talk to both
>  Windows and Linux clients.But other people have just one PC and
> have simpler needs. So there is no "best" backup system.
>
> And then do you only have a few text files you care about or do you
> have digital photos and video footage that add up to multiple
> terabytes or more?  Video cameras fill disks quickly. then the backup
> device needs  to be a RAID.
>
> Here are some links
> https://www.ubuntupit.com/top-15-free-open-source-backup-software-for-
>linux/ Google can find more.
>
> Some of the above can integrate the cloud storage services like
> Backblaze or Amazon S3  Then you are 100% bomb proof, literally.  You
> keep a local versions backup and also a copy of the same off-site.
>
> On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:01 AM Jon Elson  
wrote:
> > On 01/14/2019 09:31 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > > The blu rays work but the backup internal is to long.   It really
> > > needs
> >
> > to
> >
> > > be done every hour.  Hourly backup is best done with a hard drive.
> >
> > HOUR?  Well, really, my Linux systems stay up a log time.  I
> > just rebooted my main desktop system after 540 days
> > continuous running. My Asterisk phone system recently
> > crashed and I had to do a manual fsck after about 15 months
> > running.  My main server (router/firewall, web, mail, ssh,
> > dns, etc.) has been up 317 days.
> >
> > > A simple and painless way is to subscribe to a service.  The guys
> > > who run the the big cloud can buy storage cheaper then you can and
> > > they have peta-bytes and do all the maintenance and upgrades for
> > > you.
> >
> > I don't trust these cloud services.  I had a cheap (but not
> > free) secondary name server that went out of business with
> > no warning or anything.  I'd just done a 2-year renewal.
> > Just one day their service stopped working.
> >
> > > One problem with using small media is that to restore it you have
> > > to
> >
> > know a
> >
> > > lot.  Typically each disc is only the delta from a full snapshot
> > > so to restore you first restore the last ful image then you have
> > > to restore
> >
> > each
> >
> > > change disc.
> >
> > True on my hard drive backup, NOT true on the blu-ray
> > backup.  Every one is a full backup.
> > One of the problems with the incremental backup is if one of
> > the deltas is seriously bad, like completely unreadable, you
> > have a major mess to reconstruct what you can.  And, if the
> > last update to a file was on the bad delta, it is just gone,
> > you only have the oldest version on the full backup.
> >
> > I don't consider a blu-ray as "small media".  It is
> > 22-something GB.  It will hold pretty much all of my main
> > user file tree.
> > I have my pictures and various CNC manuals in another file
> > tree, and back that up to another blu-ray.
> >
> > Jon
> >
I'm forced to comment here, because while I am a long term (about 20 
years now) user of amanda, so I am quite familiar with its concept of 
doing a level 0 within the timeframe of runspercycle, usually stated in 
days, with a chefs choice of backup levels out to 4 or 5 used in between 
fulls, with an eye toward adjusting the schedule to always use the same 
amount of storage on the media during an individual run.


But no one has mentioned the name of

Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-15 Thread Chris Albertson 
DOn't worry about the amount of data from hourly backups.   If nothing is
changed on the system then there is no data written to the backup device.
Only data that has changed relative to the last backup interval is written.
  In an office files server this could be quite a lot of data 9 to5but zero
change at night.  On a tiny system mostly nothing changes.

Also it does not matter how long the system has been running continuously,
what matters is how fast the data changes.Most all backup system will
delete older version if the backup disk is full so the backup remains
always the size of the disk.  So for example as the disk fills with hourly
copies of some log file the system finds the oldest logs and keeps only
daily snapshots, then as the disk files it keeps only weekly then monthly
and yearly copies.So after this runs a while you find you have hourly
resolution only back to a point and then it goes to weekly or monthly.
 The details depend on the size of the backup disk.   But almost always the
system can be configured to only a specified amount of space.As a rule
of thumb your backup disk is 2X the size of the data tube backup up.   This
works because most files never change.

This is the system Apple uses on Mac OS.  Macs run BSD UNIX and there are
some Linux/Unix copies of Apple's system that you can download and install.
   All of them do a good job of managing a fixed amount of backup space.

It is hard to say what is best.  Perhaps you have a half dozen Linux
systems and some Windows PC notebooks and you want to centralize backup to
one server?  The server then has to know how to talk to both  Windows and
Linux clients.But other people have just one PC and have simpler needs.
   So there is no "best" backup system.

And then do you only have a few text files you care about or do you have
digital photos and video footage that add up to multiple terabytes or
more?  Video cameras fill disks quickly. then the backup device needs  to
be a RAID.

Here are some links
https://www.ubuntupit.com/top-15-free-open-source-backup-software-for-linux/
Google can find more.

Some of the above can integrate the cloud storage services like Backblaze
or Amazon S3  Then you are 100% bomb proof, literally.  You keep a local
versions backup and also a copy of the same off-site.




On Tue, Jan 15, 2019 at 8:01 AM Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 01/14/2019 09:31 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> > The blu rays work but the backup internal is to long.   It really needs
> to
> > be done every hour.  Hourly backup is best done with a hard drive.
> HOUR?  Well, really, my Linux systems stay up a log time.  I
> just rebooted my main desktop system after 540 days
> continuous running. My Asterisk phone system recently
> crashed and I had to do a manual fsck after about 15 months
> running.  My main server (router/firewall, web, mail, ssh,
> dns, etc.) has been up 317 days.
> > A simple and painless way is to subscribe to a service.  The guys who run
> > the the big cloud can buy storage cheaper then you can and they have
> > peta-bytes and do all the maintenance and upgrades for you.
> I don't trust these cloud services.  I had a cheap (but not
> free) secondary name server that went out of business with
> no warning or anything.  I'd just done a 2-year renewal.
> Just one day their service stopped working.
> > One problem with using small media is that to restore it you have to
> know a
> > lot.  Typically each disc is only the delta from a full snapshot so to
> > restore you first restore the last ful image then you have to restore
> each
> > change disc.
> >
> >
> True on my hard drive backup, NOT true on the blu-ray
> backup.  Every one is a full backup.
> One of the problems with the incremental backup is if one of
> the deltas is seriously bad, like completely unreadable, you
> have a major mess to reconstruct what you can.  And, if the
> last update to a file was on the bad delta, it is just gone,
> you only have the oldest version on the full backup.
>
> I don't consider a blu-ray as "small media".  It is
> 22-something GB.  It will hold pretty much all of my main
> user file tree.
> I have my pictures and various CNC manuals in another file
> tree, and back that up to another blu-ray.
>
> Jon
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-15 Thread Jon Elson 

On 01/14/2019 09:31 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:

The blu rays work but the backup internal is to long.   It really needs to
be done every hour.  Hourly backup is best done with a hard drive.
HOUR?  Well, really, my Linux systems stay up a log time.  I 
just rebooted my main desktop system after 540 days 
continuous running. My Asterisk phone system recently 
crashed and I had to do a manual fsck after about 15 months 
running.  My main server (router/firewall, web, mail, ssh, 
dns, etc.) has been up 317 days.

A simple and painless way is to subscribe to a service.  The guys who run
the the big cloud can buy storage cheaper then you can and they have
peta-bytes and do all the maintenance and upgrades for you.
I don't trust these cloud services.  I had a cheap (but not 
free) secondary name server that went out of business with 
no warning or anything.  I'd just done a 2-year renewal.  
Just one day their service stopped working.

One problem with using small media is that to restore it you have to know a
lot.  Typically each disc is only the delta from a full snapshot so to
restore you first restore the last ful image then you have to restore each
change disc.


True on my hard drive backup, NOT true on the blu-ray 
backup.  Every one is a full backup.
One of the problems with the incremental backup is if one of 
the deltas is seriously bad, like completely unreadable, you 
have a major mess to reconstruct what you can.  And, if the 
last update to a file was on the bad delta, it is just gone, 
you only have the oldest version on the full backup.


I don't consider a blu-ray as "small media".  It is 
22-something GB.  It will hold pretty much all of my main 
user file tree.
I have my pictures and various CNC manuals in another file 
tree, and back that up to another blu-ray.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Chris Albertson 
The blu rays work but the backup internal is to long.   It really needs to
be done every hour.  Hourly backup is best done with a hard drive.

A simple and painless way is to subscribe to a service.  The guys who run
the the big cloud can buy storage cheaper then you can and they have
peta-bytes and do all the maintenance and upgrades for you.

One problem with using small media is that to restore it you have to know a
lot.  Typically each disc is only the delta from a full snapshot so to
restore you first restore the last ful image then you have to restore each
change disc.

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 6:52 PM Jon Elson  wrote:

> On 01/14/2019 12:16 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:
> >
> > Oe of the worst problem is #1.  A files that you don't read very often
> > gets corrupted.  and then is propagated all over you backup  media.
> > This takes some thought to prevent.   The ONLY way is versioned backup
> > -- NEVER overwrite old data with new.
> I've been trying to stay ahead of the data explosion by
> constantly improving backup systems.
> Right now, I back up to blu-ray discs every couple weeks
> (Oh, I wish ... OK, every couple months)
> that are stored in a fire safe.  The advantage here is that
> they are not re-writeable media, so there is saved history
> if I should need it.  And, I back up every couple days to a
> large spinning hard drive.  My live discs are SSDs.
>
> I don't know how long the blu-rays are going to be
> sufficient, they are already too small to hold everything,
> so I have to do it in sections.
>
> Jon
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Jon Elson 

On 01/14/2019 12:16 PM, Chris Albertson wrote:


Oe of the worst problem is #1.  A files that you don't read very often
gets corrupted.  and then is propagated all over you backup  media.
This takes some thought to prevent.   The ONLY way is versioned backup
-- NEVER overwrite old data with new.
I've been trying to stay ahead of the data explosion by 
constantly improving backup systems.
Right now, I back up to blu-ray discs every couple weeks 
(Oh, I wish ... OK, every couple months)
that are stored in a fire safe.  The advantage here is that 
they are not re-writeable media, so there is saved history 
if I should need it.  And, I back up every couple days to a 
large spinning hard drive.  My live discs are SSDs.


I don't know how long the blu-rays are going to be 
sufficient, they are already too small to hold everything, 
so I have to do it in sections.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Chris Albertson 
Here is the classic problem with backups that clothe live data.
This is a well studied problem.  Please, just do want the pros do,
follow current best practiced you will be fine.Do not re-invent
1970's vintage solutions.

Here are the classic failures:

 1) You have a "backup drive" the mirrors all your data.   SO after
spending a few hours edits files yu save the file but the software has
a bug and writes a corrupted file to disk.   the yo "backup" the file
and this over writes the only good copy of the file, the one you
backed up yesterday.So not the file and the backup are corrupted.
 Solution:  NEVER over write a backup. only save the CHANGES.   You
need to be able to go back in time and pull out the last working
version

2) You have a backup disk and it make automated saves every hour and
keeps a version history because you read the above.  But lightening
strikes a power pole 1/4 mile from your house and the surge valve
destroys the computer AND the backup disk. Solution: Keep a redundant
copy of the data off-line.   This done not need to be quite as up to
date but it should not be "live".  Store it in some other room and no
connected to power data cables

3) You have done all of the above but you house burned down.  I know
you rethinking "my house will not burn down" but EVERYONE who has ever
had a fire thought the same thing.   An "fire" is a stand-in for many
other disasters like food Earthquake or the most common one: Theft of
the equipment.   Solution:  Keep the backup data off-site.  The
farther off site the better.   In another state if you can or at least
at your office at work.

A basic url of thumb for data that is NOT business critical is that
"At all times, even during a a backup, that data shall exist on at
least three different physical media and in at least two different
geographical locations".For business critical data, that means
data that yu need to ear a living that can't be replaced, increment
those numbers by one.   Four copies of the data in three different
locations.


Oe of the worst problem is #1.  A files that you don't read very often
gets corrupted.  and then is propagated all over you backup  media.
This takes some thought to prevent.   The ONLY way is versioned backup
-- NEVER overwrite old data with new.We can afford to do this
because the cost of media falls. In my case I have a primary
backup that runs every hour.   It is not very big because I can't
generate much data in only one hour.  This backup goes to the biggest
and newest disk I own.   Every two years or so I Buy a newer big disk
and retire the old one.I wan the the backup to be on the newest
and most reliable drive.SO I run the new disk in parallel with the
old one and after some time unplug the old one and put it to see other
use.   Today in 2019 they sell good 8TB drives.   That is 4 or 2 times
larger then most people need.Botton like is that you can NEVER
overwrite backup.

The House fire/theft/flood/...problem is easy to solve.   Just sign up
for a service like "Backblaze" or something like it.   For $5 per
month they keep a up to date copy of all by files.   Software in my
computer scenes for changes and imeadeatly sends them to the service.
  If the house burned down I've have lost not more then maybe 90
minutes of work.   $5 is cheaper than buying a disk drive.But the
disadvantage is recovering the data.  Downloading multiple TB would
take forever.  But they would for a price send it to me via FedEx on a
USB drive

Once you set this you can forget about it.  It is automated.

Because almost everyone actually do some kind of backup now days. The
biggest loss of data is no longer hard drive failures like it once
was.   Today the cause is "loss of the equipment" by theft or
accident.

On Mon, Jan 14, 2019 at 5:55 AM Dave Cole  wrote:
>
>
> Get a copy of Clonezilla and put it on a stick drive and make it bootable.
> https://clonezilla.org/
> It does an effective job of backing up and restoring entire Linux disks
> without pain via a graphical interface.
> It can also do baremetal restores as well.
>
> I use a little USB plug in Hard drive along with a USB stick with
> Clonezilla to backup my Linux server. It has saved me a few times now
> after a few bad installs,  and when my server was hacked - twice in one
> year.Highly recommended.The small USB hard drive and stick are
> stored in a steel cabinet and are never left plugged in - in case of a
> lightning strike.
>
> After I make any sizeable changes, I do a backup and give the backup
> file an approprate name and timestamp.That makes fallbacks a lot
> easier.
>
> Dave
>
>
> On 1/13/2019 7:46 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Greetings all;
> >
> > In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why
> > about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed
> > xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.
> >
> > Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man
> > page

Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Ken Strauss 
They are not the cheapest but Amazon has 10-packs of 16GB USB sticks for $30. 
They even come in various colours and they promise Tuesday delivery.

> -Original Message-
> From: Gene Heskett [mailto:ghesk...@shentel.net]
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 11:25 AM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed
>
> Something I don't do and since I'm grounded from any great amount of
> driving for another 2-3 weeks, it will be a while before I can collect
> some usb keys. But it sounds like an economical way to get just in case
> instant recoveries. I'm about 70% recovered now, just the tally led
> restoration and a session of copy/paste should complete it sometime in
> the next days.
>
> Thanks Dave
> [...]
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Jon Elson 

On 01/14/2019 10:25 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:


Mmm, that says you are running a stock router if any at all. I've not
been bothered by hackers since I'm running dd-wrt on my router.
Best thing I did was set up denyhosts, that watches for 
multiple ssh login fails from specific IP addresses, and 
puts them on the hosts.deny list.  I set pretty strict rules 
for it, so any IP that got 3 login fails over a 2 week span 
would be locked out for several months.  It was very 
interesting, EXACTLY 2 weeks after turning this on, the 
number of ssh attempts dropped from about 1000 a day to 3. 
So, somewhere on the dark net there is a list of nodes that 
are considered potentially hackable, and those that have 
been determined are too hard.


Jon


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Monday 14 January 2019 08:56:40 Dave Cole wrote:

> Get a copy of Clonezilla and put it on a stick drive and make it
> bootable. https://clonezilla.org/
> It does an effective job of backing up and restoring entire Linux
> disks without pain via a graphical interface.
> It can also do baremetal restores as well.
>
> I use a little USB plug in Hard drive along with a USB stick with
> Clonezilla to backup my Linux server. It has saved me a few times now
> after a few bad installs,  and when my server was hacked - twice in
> one year. 
Mmm, that says you are running a stock router if any at all. I've not 
been bothered by hackers since I'm running dd-wrt on my router.

> Highly recommended.    The small USB hard drive and stick 
> are stored in a steel cabinet and are never left plugged in - in case
> of a lightning strike.

Just a usbkey would hold a copy of the config dir I am working in, 
several copies in fact. Everytime something works (for my definition of 
works, making a config dir backup to a time stamped copy on different 
media sounds like a good idea.

> After I make any sizeable changes, I do a backup and give the backup
> file an approprate name and timestamp.    That makes fallbacks a lot
> easier.

Something I don't do and since I'm grounded from any great amount of 
driving for another 2-3 weeks, it will be a while before I can collect 
some usb keys. But it sounds like an economical way to get just in case 
instant recoveries. I'm about 70% recovered now, just the tally led 
restoration and a session of copy/paste should complete it sometime in 
the next days.

Thanks Dave
[...]
Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 



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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Dave Cole 


Get a copy of Clonezilla and put it on a stick drive and make it bootable.
https://clonezilla.org/
It does an effective job of backing up and restoring entire Linux disks 
without pain via a graphical interface.

It can also do baremetal restores as well.

I use a little USB plug in Hard drive along with a USB stick with 
Clonezilla to backup my Linux server. It has saved me a few times now 
after a few bad installs,  and when my server was hacked - twice in one 
year.    Highly recommended.    The small USB hard drive and stick are 
stored in a steel cabinet and are never left plugged in - in case of a 
lightning strike.


After I make any sizeable changes, I do a backup and give the backup 
file an approprate name and timestamp.    That makes fallbacks a lot 
easier.


Dave


On 1/13/2019 7:46 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:

Greetings all;

In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why
about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed
xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.

Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man
page for xmlindent. But it has only a -option for an output file.  So I
ran it.  Never came back, so I added the -w option. Never came back.

Opps, now I have a zero length file where it was 130+ LOC with an error
of some sort that let it load up to the final  before it puked
at column 2. I can get most of it back by dragging it in from another
machine with a similar setup but to restore what I had 20 minutes ago
will take a hell of a lot longer than I have left in me for tonight. So
then I tried xmlcopyeditor, thinking I could copy/paste into that. But
its apparently only for new creation as it does not accept a paste.
WTF??

So where can I find an xml editor that will let me copy/paste from the
Document.pdf, most of the stuff from pages 392 on to get an rpm meter,
on, fwd, rev leds, and append align.xml stuffs to that with added status
leds to show the current machine alignment state, and which will also
show any errors (cuz the Doc.pdf has quite a few errors of its own).

And preferably not capable of destroying several weeks worth of work over
the last 5 years?

I know this isn't your fault, none of you wrote this stuff, but this xml
bs needs warning labels because it can destroy anybodies sanity.

Thanks everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett



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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Monday 14 January 2019 03:49:52 Lester Caine wrote:

> On 14/01/2019 04:21, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Makes you want to move south and hunt alligators for a living.:(
>
> Nowadays I wish I'd gone through the other door 45 years ago and not
> got into electronics at all ;)
>
But if you had done that, we'ed still be looking for a framework for 
cutting an optical encoder wheel that is as well organized and easy to 
modify for a specific use as yours.

Electronics has been good for me. I started out with an 8th grade 
education, fixing these newfangled things called tv's in '48. Got a 1st 
phone in '62, a C.E.T. in 72. Didn't crack a book to get either, 
switched from consumer electronics to broadcasting in '64. And by 2002, 
retiring from a tv station Chief Engineer's chair, I was making about 
58k a year. Pretty good for an Iowa farm kid with an 8 grade education. 
Along the way, serendipity has left my fingerprints in quite a few 
impressive places.  Its been an interesting ride I've mostly enjoyed, 
but I also understand that at 84 it will come to an end. Probably before 
the battery in this newly installed pacemaker reaches its predicted 10 
year lifespan.
 
> I've run eclipse for a long time now as it handles just about
> everything other than the drawing stuff. Has MercurialEclipse running
> behind it which has saved my bacon a few times given that Linux is
> just as bad as Windows now at screwing stuff up and since Eclipse runs
> identically on both THAT helps as well. But I still wonder if XML is
> really necessary? Playing with the config on a 3D printer and this is
> just an extension to gcode and .ini files tend to be easier to read as
> well ...

I swear both at and by xml. But when it gets beyond 100 loc, its too 
damed easy to screw it up.  and  need a better set of dox 
just to help one stay "organized", and is not helped a bit by reading 
the dozens of beginners tuts you can find on the net, none of which use 
notations that pycvp uses. Where I really tend to lose patience is with 
the profligate use of white space.  To me its wasted screen real estate 
to put 6 scan lines of white space above and below the 12 pt font used 
for text on a button. Thats wasted screen real estate to me and has 
severely limited what one can do in the right hand panel. You need room 
for the msgs and such stuff your gcode might express as it runs too.

"33" in particular is confusing because its interpreted in 
some cases as pixels, but in other cases as character boxes. Probably 
the same complaint could be made for  but its not bit me that 
hard, yet...  Sigh. Frustrating at times with the poor dox we can get.

Take care Lester.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-14 Thread Lester Caine 

On 14/01/2019 04:21, Gene Heskett wrote:

Makes you want to move south and hunt alligators for a living.:(
Nowadays I wish I'd gone through the other door 45 years ago and not got 
into electronics at all ;)


I've run eclipse for a long time now as it handles just about everything 
other than the drawing stuff. Has MercurialEclipse running behind it 
which has saved my bacon a few times given that Linux is just as bad as 
Windows now at screwing stuff up and since Eclipse runs identically on 
both THAT helps as well. But I still wonder if XML is really necessary? 
Playing with the config on a 3D printer and this is just an extension to 
gcode and .ini files tend to be easier to read as well ...


--
Lester Caine - G8HFL
-
Contact - https://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact
L.S.Caine Electronic Services - https://lsces.co.uk
EnquirySolve - https://enquirysolve.com/
Model Engineers Digital Workshop - https://medw.co.uk
Rainbow Digital Media - https://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk


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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 13 January 2019 22:39:54 Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users wrote:

> Have the authors of those programs ever actually used a properly
> functioning text editing program? Can xmlcopyeditor even open the
> files it saves?

yes, np.
> I have, several times over the years, run into programs 
> that could save in formats they could not open, or would auto-corrupt
> files they'd just saved upon re-opening them. So if you couldn't get
> the job done 100% and perfect in one go, forget it. For example
> trueSpace can save to VRML 1 and 2 but cannot open version 2 files.

That sucks, at about 10-34 torr.

> There was a version of Word Perfect for Windows that was a decent HTML
> editor, or would have been if it didn't totally FUBAR HTML files it
> had been used to create when the user re-opened them in Word Perfect.
> Way back in the DOS days there was a graphics program I was eager to
> like because of the features it had, until I first used it, did
> something, saved the image - then found the program could not open
> that format.
>
> Being able to open file formats it can't save to is nearly as
> horrible, if the software can save to a different format without
> making a mess of the data.

Makes you want to move south and hunt alligators for a living. :(

Thanks  Gregg.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 13 January 2019 22:24:24 Chris Albertson wrote:

> For editing XML, I just use Eclipse.  It's default HTML editor will
> color hi light XML.  But if you are not doing software development
> then Eclipse will not be something you already have.  But other
> editors have language plug-ins will certainly have one for XML  that
> will do colored syntax hi lighting and flags errors as you type.
>
> As for not loosing work.  Are you using any kind of version control
> system? 

No, but I am now running the current version that works so far thru 
xmlindent to an increased version#, and then continueing to work on the 
new file that creates.

> You should be committing changes after some new improvement 
> works, commit the change and write a note. Then you have a record of
> every file version and why you changed it.   Put the data on Github of
> some other cloud service and if an asteroid lands on your house the
> data is still there.
>
> Onto of thatchy not set up abackupsystemthat runs every hound save the
> changes.  There are any number that run on Linux.
>
> I keep filesI can't re-create on at least three redundant back backup
> locations. That is the minimum of the data is to survive some kind
> ofacizent like a lightening strike or a house fire or theft of the
> equipment.  The version control stuff protects yo against yourself
> accidentally saving file after electing every line and then not
> noticing the error until the backup system have overwritten you good
> copies. and 1,000 other common user errors. I think almost all
> people doing software have moved housing Git from other version
> control systems.

I just found that  the same file/function on the G0704 has the missing 
tally leds for the alignment stuff, so once I'm well into my 2nd cuppa, 
and have my lady coffee'd and fed, I should be able to transfer that 
stuff into the next version of this file.

[...]

Thanks Chris.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Gregg Eshelman via Emc-users 
Have the authors of those programs ever actually used a properly functioning 
text editing program? Can xmlcopyeditor even open the files it saves?I have, 
several times over the years, run into programs that could save in formats they 
could not open, or would auto-corrupt files they'd just saved upon re-opening 
them. So if you couldn't get the job done 100% and perfect in one go, forget it.
For example trueSpace can save to VRML 1 and 2 but cannot open version 2 files. 
There was a version of Word Perfect for Windows that was a decent HTML editor, 
or would have been if it didn't totally FUBAR HTML files it had been used to 
create when the user re-opened them in Word Perfect. Way back in the DOS days 
there was a graphics program I was eager to like because of the features it 
had, until I first used it, did something, saved the image - then found the 
program could not open that format.
 
Being able to open file formats it can't save to is nearly as horrible, if the 
software can save to a different format without making a mess of the data.

On Sunday, January 13, 2019, 5:49:54 PM MST, Gene Heskett 
 wrote:  
 
 Greetings all;

In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why 
about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed 
xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.

Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man 
page for xmlindent. But it has only a -option for an output file.  So I 
ran it.  Never came back, so I added the -w option. Never came back.

Opps, now I have a zero length file where it was 130+ LOC with an error 
of some sort that let it load up to the final  before it puked 
at column 2. I can get most of it back by dragging it in from another 
machine with a similar setup but to restore what I had 20 minutes ago 
will take a hell of a lot longer than I have left in me for tonight. So 
then I tried xmlcopyeditor, thinking I could copy/paste into that. But 
its apparently only for new creation as it does not accept a paste. 
WTF??

So where can I find an xml editor that will let me copy/paste from the 
Document.pdf, most of the stuff from pages 392 on to get an rpm meter, 
on, fwd, rev leds, and append align.xml stuffs to that with added status 
leds to show the current machine alignment state, and which will also 
show any errors (cuz the Doc.pdf has quite a few errors of its own).

And preferably not capable of destroying several weeks worth of work over 
the last 5 years?

I know this isn't your fault, none of you wrote this stuff, but this xml 
bs needs warning labels because it can destroy anybodies sanity.
  
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Chris Albertson 
For editing XML, I just use Eclipse.  It's default HTML editor will color
hi light XML.  But if you are not doing software development then Eclipse
will not be something you already have.  But other editors have language
plug-ins will certainly have one for XML  that will do colored syntax hi
lighting and flags errors as you type.

As for not loosing work.  Are you using any kind of version control
system?  You should be committing changes after some new improvement works,
commit the change and write a note. Then you have a record of every file
version and why you changed it.   Put the data on Github of some other
cloud service and if an asteroid lands on your house the data is still
there.

Onto of thatchy not set up abackupsystemthat runs every hound save the
changes.  There are any number that run on Linux.

I keep filesI can't re-create on at least three redundant back backup
locations. That is the minimum of the data is to survive some kind
ofacizent like a lightening strike or a house fire or theft of the
equipment.  The version control stuff protects yo against yourself
accidentally saving file after electing every line and then not noticing
the error until the backup system have overwritten you good copies. and
1,000 other common user errors. I think almost all people doing
software have moved housing Git from other version control systems.



On Sun, Jan 13, 2019 at 4:47 PM Gene Heskett  wrote:

> Greetings all;
>
> In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why
> about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed
> xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.
>
> Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man
> page for xmlindent. But it has only a -option for an output file.  So I
> ran it.  Never came back, so I added the -w option. Never came back.
>
> Opps, now I have a zero length file where it was 130+ LOC with an error
> of some sort that let it load up to the final  before it puked
> at column 2. I can get most of it back by dragging it in from another
> machine with a similar setup but to restore what I had 20 minutes ago
> will take a hell of a lot longer than I have left in me for tonight. So
> then I tried xmlcopyeditor, thinking I could copy/paste into that. But
> its apparently only for new creation as it does not accept a paste.
> WTF??
>
> So where can I find an xml editor that will let me copy/paste from the
> Document.pdf, most of the stuff from pages 392 on to get an rpm meter,
> on, fwd, rev leds, and append align.xml stuffs to that with added status
> leds to show the current machine alignment state, and which will also
> show any errors (cuz the Doc.pdf has quite a few errors of its own).
>
> And preferably not capable of destroying several weeks worth of work over
> the last 5 years?
>
> I know this isn't your fault, none of you wrote this stuff, but this xml
> bs needs warning labels because it can destroy anybodies sanity.
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Gene Heskett 
On Sunday 13 January 2019 20:01:16 Mark Wendt wrote:

> Didn't have it backed up anywhere?

Yeah, by amanda, but thats 18+ hours old and way the hell outta date by 
now. I've enough unused garbage hanging around in that config dir now.

But I should be able to extract the tally leds I had added to the 
align.xml stuffs.  Maybe. If not, I'll have to re-invent about 100 loc.
Putting in 's that are 2 lines high and 275 wide takes a 
surprising number of loc.  The idea is to underline the button with a 
status led.

I found out how to run xmlindent, it needs a pipe, you cat the source 
file into it: 

cat srcfile |xmlindent -i2 -onewfilename.

The man page is utterly mute on that too. The -i2 is because it only does 
1 space indents by default. Man page is totally mute on its defaults. 
IMNSHO its as busted as manpages get, without actually lying to us.

I'll get back to where I was eventually. But I'm allowed one near beer a 
day, and I think its beer thirty right about now...

Thanks Mark
[...]

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Mark Wendt 
Didn't have it backed up anywhere?

Mark

On Sun, Jan 13, 2019, 19:47 Gene Heskett  Greetings all;
>
> In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why
> about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed
> xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.
>
> Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man
> page for xmlindent. But it has only a -option for an output file.  So I
> ran it.  Never came back, so I added the -w option. Never came back.
>
> Opps, now I have a zero length file where it was 130+ LOC with an error
> of some sort that let it load up to the final  before it puked
> at column 2. I can get most of it back by dragging it in from another
> machine with a similar setup but to restore what I had 20 minutes ago
> will take a hell of a lot longer than I have left in me for tonight. So
> then I tried xmlcopyeditor, thinking I could copy/paste into that. But
> its apparently only for new creation as it does not accept a paste.
> WTF??
>
> So where can I find an xml editor that will let me copy/paste from the
> Document.pdf, most of the stuff from pages 392 on to get an rpm meter,
> on, fwd, rev leds, and append align.xml stuffs to that with added status
> leds to show the current machine alignment state, and which will also
> show any errors (cuz the Doc.pdf has quite a few errors of its own).
>
> And preferably not capable of destroying several weeks worth of work over
> the last 5 years?
>
> I know this isn't your fault, none of you wrote this stuff, but this xml
> bs needs warning labels because it can destroy anybodies sanity.
>
> Thanks everybody.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett
> --
>
>
>
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[Emc-users] color me pissed

2019-01-13 Thread Gene Heskett 
Greetings all;

In search of something, anything that might give me a clue as to why 
about a months work on custompanel.xml was killing linuxcnc, I installed 
xmlindent, and xmlcopyeditor.

Thinking I might find a clue in the re-indented code, I checked the man 
page for xmlindent. But it has only a -option for an output file.  So I 
ran it.  Never came back, so I added the -w option. Never came back.

Opps, now I have a zero length file where it was 130+ LOC with an error 
of some sort that let it load up to the final  before it puked 
at column 2. I can get most of it back by dragging it in from another 
machine with a similar setup but to restore what I had 20 minutes ago 
will take a hell of a lot longer than I have left in me for tonight. So 
then I tried xmlcopyeditor, thinking I could copy/paste into that. But 
its apparently only for new creation as it does not accept a paste. 
WTF??

So where can I find an xml editor that will let me copy/paste from the 
Document.pdf, most of the stuff from pages 392 on to get an rpm meter, 
on, fwd, rev leds, and append align.xml stuffs to that with added status 
leds to show the current machine alignment state, and which will also 
show any errors (cuz the Doc.pdf has quite a few errors of its own).

And preferably not capable of destroying several weeks worth of work over 
the last 5 years?

I know this isn't your fault, none of you wrote this stuff, but this xml 
bs needs warning labels because it can destroy anybodies sanity.

Thanks everybody.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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