Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Abdul Rahman Riza]

Hi All,

Has anyone used udoo x86 for linuxcnc? I really want to use the best 
combination for 3 axis milling cnc.

Thanks

On 02/21/2017 02:09 PM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 21 February 2017 01:56:45 Erik Christiansen wrote:
>
>> On 21.02.17 01:13, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> If perchance this magic new device has some fast gpio, and a spi
>>> driver could be written for it, the 7i90HD with spi firmware might
>>> be usable?
>> The on-board Intel Curie microcontroller, which provides the Arduino
>> 101 compatible extra stuff, has "SPI Flash" listed as an "Other
>> Interface": See: http://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/
>>
>> Perhaps more guaranteed to be really hard real-time; the quad-core
>> main cpu has "up to 20" GPIO. That'll depend on what else we want to
>> use pins for, clearly. It ought to be feasible to ferret out some
>> Linux SPI foo out there in the googleverse. (Some time to faff with it
>> is then item 2 on the agenda. (Well, 3 until the board arrives and I
>> push some Linux into its brain.)
>>
>>> That spi bus protocol is a 32 bit, 4 byte packet going each way,
>>> with a 32 megabaud transfer rate in and out of a Raspberry pi 3b.
>>> Thats no slouch in the ability to do realtime control. Said another
>>> way, if the cpu power was there, one could run the servo-thread much
>>> faster than 1 kilohertz. Without the hal calculations required, an
>>> update rate of 4 megahertz for every bit of the 7i90's 72 pins of
>>> i/o could be achieved.
>>>
>>> LCNC is sitting idle out there, and the pi doesn't isolate the
>>> isolcpus=3 from being monitored by htop like it does on the x86
>>> hardware, and the idling rtapi task is using 13.2% of cpu-3.  So I
>>> can add quite a bit of processing overhead in my .hal file's yet
>>> before it actually gets "busy".  Or run a servo-thread at 5
>>> kilohertz.
>> Well, it's X86. So we have to hobble 3 of the 4 cores, but not on ARM?
>>
>>> Yes, you'll use a pile of ferrite snapon chokes, and pay real
>>> attention to a single bolt grounding system, but once thats
>>> understood it seems to Just Work(tm).  And that card is only a tad
>>> over a $60 bill on your front deck here in the USA. And its
>>> interface versatile, offering the same i/o features at the slower
>>> EPP parport rate if its a true 3.3 volt EPP port. But on the pi, the
>>> spi is only 4 signal wires not counting the 8 commons, and still
>>> faster than the parport version is. I have no clue if a true EPP
>>> parport driver has even been written for the pi's. It doesn't have
>>> one natively that I'm aware of.
>> The Udoo X86 isn't as cheap as a Pi, and I added a good sized SSD to
>> my order, which didn't help. Their promotional video claims it's a
>> _heck_ of a lot faster than the Pi, but they may be focussing on
>> graphical performance.
>>
>> Erik
> That can and is a minor problem on the pi, gfx isn't yet drm optimized.
> Its fast enough, but not "instant". 20 FPS maybe.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 21 February 2017 01:56:45 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 21.02.17 01:13, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > If perchance this magic new device has some fast gpio, and a spi
> > driver could be written for it, the 7i90HD with spi firmware might
> > be usable?
>
> The on-board Intel Curie microcontroller, which provides the Arduino
> 101 compatible extra stuff, has "SPI Flash" listed as an "Other
> Interface": See: http://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/
>
> Perhaps more guaranteed to be really hard real-time; the quad-core
> main cpu has "up to 20" GPIO. That'll depend on what else we want to
> use pins for, clearly. It ought to be feasible to ferret out some
> Linux SPI foo out there in the googleverse. (Some time to faff with it
> is then item 2 on the agenda. (Well, 3 until the board arrives and I
> push some Linux into its brain.)
>
> > That spi bus protocol is a 32 bit, 4 byte packet going each way,
> > with a 32 megabaud transfer rate in and out of a Raspberry pi 3b.
> > Thats no slouch in the ability to do realtime control. Said another
> > way, if the cpu power was there, one could run the servo-thread much
> > faster than 1 kilohertz. Without the hal calculations required, an
> > update rate of 4 megahertz for every bit of the 7i90's 72 pins of
> > i/o could be achieved.
> >
> > LCNC is sitting idle out there, and the pi doesn't isolate the
> > isolcpus=3 from being monitored by htop like it does on the x86
> > hardware, and the idling rtapi task is using 13.2% of cpu-3.  So I
> > can add quite a bit of processing overhead in my .hal file's yet
> > before it actually gets "busy".  Or run a servo-thread at 5
> > kilohertz.
>
> Well, it's X86. So we have to hobble 3 of the 4 cores, but not on ARM?
>
> > Yes, you'll use a pile of ferrite snapon chokes, and pay real
> > attention to a single bolt grounding system, but once thats
> > understood it seems to Just Work(tm).  And that card is only a tad
> > over a $60 bill on your front deck here in the USA. And its
> > interface versatile, offering the same i/o features at the slower
> > EPP parport rate if its a true 3.3 volt EPP port. But on the pi, the
> > spi is only 4 signal wires not counting the 8 commons, and still
> > faster than the parport version is. I have no clue if a true EPP
> > parport driver has even been written for the pi's. It doesn't have
> > one natively that I'm aware of.
>
> The Udoo X86 isn't as cheap as a Pi, and I added a good sized SSD to
> my order, which didn't help. Their promotional video claims it's a
> _heck_ of a lot faster than the Pi, but they may be focussing on
> graphical performance.
>
> Erik

That can and is a minor problem on the pi, gfx isn't yet drm optimized. 
Its fast enough, but not "instant". 20 FPS maybe.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
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 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Erik Christiansen]

On 21.02.17 17:56, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> It ought to be feasible to ferret out some Linux SPI foo
> out there in the googleverse. (Some time to faff with it is then item 2
> on the agenda. (Well, 3 until the board arrives and I push some Linux
> into its brain.)

This might do for starters:
http://hackaday.com/2017/02/19/spi-on-embedded-linux/

But if the 7i90 talks SPI, then there's already an SPI device driver in
LinuxCNC, perhaps? Then all there is to it is to tweak the GPIO
assignments?

Erik

-- 
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than in practice..."

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Erik Christiansen]

On 21.02.17 01:13, Gene Heskett wrote:

> If perchance this magic new device has some fast gpio, and a spi driver 
> could be written for it, the 7i90HD with spi firmware might be usable?

The on-board Intel Curie microcontroller, which provides the Arduino 101
compatible extra stuff, has "SPI Flash" listed as an "Other Interface":
See: http://www.udoo.org/udoo-x86/

Perhaps more guaranteed to be really hard real-time; the quad-core main
cpu has "up to 20" GPIO. That'll depend on what else we want to use pins
for, clearly. It ought to be feasible to ferret out some Linux SPI foo
out there in the googleverse. (Some time to faff with it is then item 2
on the agenda. (Well, 3 until the board arrives and I push some Linux
into its brain.)

> That spi bus protocol is a 32 bit, 4 byte packet going each way, with a 
> 32 megabaud transfer rate in and out of a Raspberry pi 3b. Thats no 
> slouch in the ability to do realtime control. Said another way, if the 
> cpu power was there, one could run the servo-thread much faster than 1 
> kilohertz. Without the hal calculations required, an update rate of 4 
> megahertz for every bit of the 7i90's 72 pins of i/o could be achieved.
> 
> LCNC is sitting idle out there, and the pi doesn't isolate the isolcpus=3 
> from being monitored by htop like it does on the x86 hardware, and the 
> idling rtapi task is using 13.2% of cpu-3.  So I can add quite a bit of 
> processing overhead in my .hal file's yet before it actually 
> gets "busy".  Or run a servo-thread at 5 kilohertz.

Well, it's X86. So we have to hobble 3 of the 4 cores, but not on ARM?

> Yes, you'll use a pile of ferrite snapon chokes, and pay real attention 
> to a single bolt grounding system, but once thats understood it seems to 
> Just Work(tm).  And that card is only a tad over a $60 bill on your 
> front deck here in the USA. And its interface versatile, offering the 
> same i/o features at the slower EPP parport rate if its a true 3.3 volt 
> EPP port. But on the pi, the spi is only 4 signal wires not counting the 
> 8 commons, and still faster than the parport version is. I have no clue 
> if a true EPP parport driver has even been written for the pi's. It 
> doesn't have one natively that I'm aware of.

The Udoo X86 isn't as cheap as a Pi, and I added a good sized SSD to my
order, which didn't help. Their promotional video claims it's a _heck_
of a lot faster than the Pi, but they may be focussing on graphical
performance.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 20 February 2017 23:09:50 Erik Christiansen wrote:

> On 20.02.17 22:57, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> > Thanks Erik
> > my beaglebone, qubie and orangePiPlus2e cant do graphics like the
> > video you posted ( heck my dm510 cant do it either ) All of those
> > were candidates for linuxcnc but are now just bookshelf knickknacks.
>
> It is to replace my desktop machine that I ordered the Udoo X86, as
> youtube etc. currently run like a dog. That the Udoo runs off 12v DC
> also makes it a good candidate for running off solar power out on the
> farm.
>
> > the video doesnt prove that an rt kernel linuxcnc image would run
> > that well, but hope springs eternal. I'd think that ethernet mesa
> > cards might be used as well as the weirdo pcie cable extension
> > thingy.
>
> Yeah, maybe "instead of". While your wikipedia M.2 link refers to
> "PCIe ×2" for Key-B M.2, the Udoo X86 glossy leaflet masquerading as a
> datasheet:
>
> http://www.seco.com/misk/UDOO_X86_datasheet.pdf
>
> only mentions M.2 Key-B in the "Mass Storage" section. There is no
> mention of PCIe in the "Other Interfaces" section. Hold on! In the
> "Networks" row, there's "M.2 Key E slot", but it's possible they've
> gone no further than support 'PCM "WiFi/Bluetooth cards"'.
>
> It is entirely likely that ethernet Mesa cards are the only way to go
> with this SBC.
>
> > Please keep us posted on the Udoo and any experiences with linuxcnc
> > on it
> > tomp tjtr33
>
> By the projected delivery date of end March, it'll be half a year
> since my order. Let's hope it turns up then. Looking closer, it
> appears that the original kickstarter subscribers haven't had anything
> yet, either. On the other hand, they do say the new board design is
> good to go, and production is now the last hurdle.
>
> I'll take a look at available ethernet Mesa cards then, assuming
> there's a practical adaptor for M.2 E-key to PCIe cable.
>
> Erik
>
If perchance this magic new device has some fast gpio, and a spi driver 
could be written for it, the 7i90HD with spi firmware might be usable?

That spi bus protocol is a 32 bit, 4 byte packet going each way, with a 
32 megabaud transfer rate in and out of a Raspberry pi 3b. Thats no 
slouch in the ability to do realtime control. Said another way, if the 
cpu power was there, one could run the servo-thread much faster than 1 
kilohertz. Without the hal calculations required, an update rate of 4 
megahertz for every bit of the 7i90's 72 pins of i/o could be achieved.

LCNC is sitting idle out there, and the pi doesn't isolate the isolcpus=3 
from being monitored by htop like it does on the x86 hardware, and the 
idling rtapi task is using 13.2% of cpu-3.  So I can add quite a bit of 
processing overhead in my .hal file's yet before it actually 
gets "busy".  Or run a servo-thread at 5 kilohertz.

Yes, you'll use a pile of ferrite snapon chokes, and pay real attention 
to a single bolt grounding system, but once thats understood it seems to 
Just Work(tm).  And that card is only a tad over a $60 bill on your 
front deck here in the USA. And its interface versatile, offering the 
same i/o features at the slower EPP parport rate if its a true 3.3 volt 
EPP port. But on the pi, the spi is only 4 signal wires not counting the 
8 commons, and still faster than the parport version is. I have no clue 
if a true EPP parport driver has even been written for the pi's. It 
doesn't have one natively that I'm aware of.

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Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.02.17 22:57, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> Thanks Erik
> my beaglebone, qubie and orangePiPlus2e cant do graphics like the
> video you posted ( heck my dm510 cant do it either ) All of those were
> candidates for linuxcnc but are now just bookshelf knickknacks.

It is to replace my desktop machine that I ordered the Udoo X86, as
youtube etc. currently run like a dog. That the Udoo runs off 12v DC
also makes it a good candidate for running off solar power out on the
farm.

> the video doesnt prove that an rt kernel linuxcnc image would run that
> well, but hope springs eternal. I'd think that ethernet mesa cards
> might be used as well as the weirdo pcie cable extension thingy.

Yeah, maybe "instead of". While your wikipedia M.2 link refers to
"PCIe ×2" for Key-B M.2, the Udoo X86 glossy leaflet masquerading as a
datasheet:

http://www.seco.com/misk/UDOO_X86_datasheet.pdf

only mentions M.2 Key-B in the "Mass Storage" section. There is no
mention of PCIe in the "Other Interfaces" section. Hold on! In the
"Networks" row, there's "M.2 Key E slot", but it's possible they've gone
no further than support 'PCM "WiFi/Bluetooth cards"'.

It is entirely likely that ethernet Mesa cards are the only way to go
with this SBC.

> Please keep us posted on the Udoo and any experiences with linuxcnc on
> it
> tomp tjtr33

By the projected delivery date of end March, it'll be half a year since
my order. Let's hope it turns up then. Looking closer, it appears that
the original kickstarter subscribers haven't had anything yet, either.
On the other hand, they do say the new board design is good to go, and
production is now the last hurdle.

I'll take a look at available ethernet Mesa cards then, assuming there's
a practical adaptor for M.2 E-key to PCIe cable.

Erik

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[TJoseph Powderly]

Thanks Erik
my beaglebone, qubie and orangePiPlus2e cant do graphics like the video 
you posted
( heck my dm510 cant do it either )
All of those were candidates for linuxcnc but are now just bookshelf 
knickknacks.
the video doesnt prove that an rt kernel linuxcnc image would run that 
well, but hope springs eternal.
I'd think that ethernet mesa cards might be used as well as the weirdo 
pcie cable extension thingy.
Please keep us posted on the Udoo and any experiences with linuxcnc on it
tomp tjtr33

On 02/20/17 18:09, Erik Christiansen wrote:
--snip-

> Have look at
> this:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibj0xOj42VA
>
> Erik
> (Fingers crossed that there are no more gremlins in the Udoo pie.)
>


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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.02.17 22:09, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> Would this be the sort of gadget to get from M.2 to PCIe?:
> 
> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cable-Adapter-M-2-NGFF-SSD-to-PCI-e-Express-4X-Adapter-/112304837686?hash=item1a25e3d436:g:~iIAAOSw~AVYpMNx

An update: That's "Key M". The Udoo X86 needs "Key B" for the dingus to
fit. This link depicts the B,M, and B/M keyings, but lacks an old-fashioned
PCIe connector, if my eyesight is any good at this time of night:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/50mm-Mini-PCI-E-52-Pin-mSATA-SSD-to-M-2-NGFF-B-key-Adapter-Add-on-Cards-PCBA-/162305096399?hash=item25ca233acf:g:Z9IAAOSwnHZYQTnt

If there isn't anything neater, would this:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Dual-Port-NGFF-M-2-B-M-Key-SSD-to-PCI-Express-PCI-E-4X-SATA-Adapter-PC-Card-/331974572118?hash=item4d4b39f856:g:lpQAAOSwFdtX0UA8

perhaps plug into a spare PCI riser card, with the Mesa PCI card in the
other socket on the riser card, and the B-key M.2 plugged into the
socket on the above card, using gawd knows what cable?

There has to be a better way on ebay. Muñana.

Erik

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[Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[Erik Christiansen]

On 09.02.17 01:20, TJoseph Powderly wrote:
> but this x86 looks interesting forlinuxcnc
> 
> the "udoo x86 ultra"   tadaaa
> 
> it came out of kickstarter
> http://mouser.com/new/udoo/udoo-x86/
> https://www.slant.co/topics/1629/viewpoints/26/~single-board-computers~udoo-x86

I ordered (and paid for) one of those 5 months ago, after the original
kickstarter units had shipped (AIUI). It's still not here, and the
latest news (23.01.17) is:

>>>
Dear customer,
good news for UDOO X86!
The development in fact has finished successfully: the board has been
validated and is now working like a charm.

According to the new schedule, we're going to start shipping pre-ordered
items in the first week of April, eventually in the last week of March.
<<<

Somewhere since September there's a thread where I suggested it to Gene when
he griped about his Pi running like treacle, and Andy said he had one,
though that now appears to be the older non-intel Udoo Quad, in reality.

...
> but i've read this also
> "Indeed, any UDOO X86 will support PCI express on M2 slot (2 lanes) from 
> now on."
> i have no idea what that means, just that it seems to mention PCIe and
> the M2 slot seems to be discussed here
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2
> but it doesnt look like any PCIe that i have used
> so it looks like some weird adapter lets you use PCIe cards
> http://www.hwtools.net/ExtenderBoard/P14S-P14F.html

Would this be the sort of gadget to get from M.2 to PCIe?:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Cable-Adapter-M-2-NGFF-SSD-to-PCI-e-Express-4X-Adapter-/112304837686?hash=item1a25e3d436:g:~iIAAOSw~AVYpMNx

I could snaffle something similar here down under, and hook up the old
mesa card I have here - when my Udoo X86 makes it off the production
line and wends its way penguin-ward.

> looks possible, but a 300$ gamble

Already done that. Another $15 for an adaptor is therefore no biggie.

> andyp was looking at an udoo, from messages back in 2014,
> so i suspect it was an arm system, tho it was referred to as 'the udoo' 
> ( life was simpler then ;-)
> the x86 part might allow a standard image to run on it ( i edited this 
> down from 'should' )

I've previously corresponded with them on that, and loaded an ubuntu
image onto a flash drive in readiness for arrival of the Udoo X86.
According to their videos, it should be plug & boot. (Though it tries SD
card first, IIRC what I've read/seen around 4 months ago.) Have look at
this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ibj0xOj42VA

Erik
(Fingers crossed that there are no more gremlins in the Udoo pie.)

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Re: [Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[andy pugh]

On 8 February 2017 at 18:20, TJoseph Powderly  wrote:
> andyp was looking at an udoo, from messages back in 2014,
> so i suspect it was an arm system,

Mine is. I might try setting it up again, just as a test system.

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[Emc-users] linuxcnc on udoo x86 / udoo x86 ultra was linuxcnc on raspberry pi 3

[TJoseph Powderly]

there are some x86 models,
and one, the udoo x86 ultra, has an embedded arduino 101 (maybe a handy 
slave)

there are also arm models

but this x86 looks interesting forlinuxcnc

the "udoo x86 ultra"   tadaaa

it came out of kickstarter
http://mouser.com/new/udoo/udoo-x86/
https://www.slant.co/topics/1629/viewpoints/26/~single-board-computers~udoo-x86

i do not know how to research wether the udoo x86 ultra would be good as 
alinuxcnc controller
i suppose i'd have get one and boot a linuxcnc image and have ethernet 
mesa cards to see if it was useful
could it (pretty much) just work out of the box? ( hehehe how's 'pretty 
much' for a quantifier ;-)

i say id try mesa ethernet cards as thats the only useful ports i saw

but i've read this also
"Indeed, any UDOO X86 will support PCI express on M2 slot (2 lanes) from 
now on."
i have no idea what that means, just that it seems to mention PCIe
and
the M2 slot seems to be discussed here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M.2
but it doesnt look like any PCIe that i have used
so it looks like some weird adapter lets you use PCIe cards
http://www.hwtools.net/ExtenderBoard/P14S-P14F.html

looks possible, but a 300$ gamble

andyp was looking at an udoo, from messages back in 2014,
so i suspect it was an arm system, tho it was referred to as 'the udoo' 
( life was simpler then ;-)
the x86 part might allow a standard image to run on it ( i edited this 
down from 'should' )

tomp tjtr33

On 02/08/17 23:26, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Wednesday 08 February 2017 10:49:02 W. Martinjak wrote:
>
>> On 2017-02-08 15:45, Gene Heskett wrote:
>>> Thats not an armhf, Andy, thats intels latest tiny & low power
>>> consumption board, but it speaks x86, not armhf.
>> He meant this one:
>>
>> http://shop.udoo.org/usa/quad-dual/udoo-quad.html
>


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